Liliana promised her soul to four demons in exchange for awesome power, and, to free herself of that debt, she is seeking to kill those demons. Currently, she has succeeded in killing two of the four, Kothophed and Griselbrand, leaving two demons remaining.
I presume that the other two demons shall appear at some point in the future of the story, but when that may be is very uncertain, although I am certain that they shall be major characters when they do appear, likely when Liliana is again a major focus of the story.
What does everyone else say about this? Will the story eventually feature the other two demons to whom Liliana is indebted? Is there any room for speculation, currently, or is there simply too little information at the present time to speculate about it?
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What does everyone else say about this? Will the story eventually feature the other two demons to whom Liliana is indebted? Is there any room for speculation, currently, or is there simply too little information at the present time to speculate about it?
The only information we have is a name that technically doesn't exist.
In the physical copy of the webcomics, in the Wild Son, a name gets mentioned about her that has since been purged from the online version.
"Belzenlok" (or something close to that.)
Other than that, we have no real info. If Lili is in a block, the demon will be significant, if it happens outside, they won't.
A possibility is that Liliana's demon hunt will be featured in a future coreset, seeing as they try to tie in storyline points into the coresets nowadays. See Garruk and M15.
Im interested in Liliana as a character but one thing I never really got is what the consequence is when she has killed the demons. I know she has sold her soul but she looks pretty healthy and powerful to me so what would be the difference anyway?
Im interested in Liliana as a character but one thing I never really got is what the consequence is when she has killed the demons. I know she has sold her soul but she looks pretty healthy and powerful to me so what would be the difference anyway?
She negotiated a series of deals with four different demons on four different planes in an effort to retain her power, youth, and beauty after the Mending rendered her mortal. The consequence of this, of course, is that she sold her soul in the bargain, and Liliana doesn't like owing anyone anything. What's interesting is that (per Brady) she used each of her deals to broker the next one, essentially setting up a Ponzi scheme with her soul as the seed money.
So, when Kothophed called in a favor and tasked her with recovering the Chain Veil, a powerful artifact hidden in the Onnake catacombs on Shandalar, she seized the opportunity to tap into the Veil's power to destroy Kothophed and thereby get out of one of her deals. Now that she's also taken care of Griselbrand, she's gotten out of paying two of the four "investors" in her Ponzi-soul-scheme and still has her beauty/power/youth/immortality. If she can kill the remaining two demons and get out of those deals, she gets away with all her stuff intact with no long-term consequences.
...except, of course, for the consequences of using the Chain Veil, which is implied to do Bad Things to the user.
Im interested in Liliana as a character but one thing I never really got is what the consequence is when she has killed the demons. I know she has sold her soul but she looks pretty healthy and powerful to me so what would be the difference anyway?
She negotiated a series of deals with four different demons on four different planes in an effort to retain her power, youth, and beauty after the Mending rendered her mortal. The consequence of this, of course, is that she sold her soul in the bargain, and Liliana doesn't like owing anyone anything. What's interesting is that (per Brady) she used each of her deals to broker the next one, essentially setting up a Ponzi scheme with her soul as the seed money.
So, when Kothophed called in a favor and tasked her with recovering the Chain Veil, a powerful artifact hidden in the Onnake catacombs on Shandalar, she seized the opportunity to tap into the Veil's power to destroy Kothophed and thereby get out of one of her deals. Now that she's also taken care of Griselbrand, she's gotten out of paying two of the four "investors" in her Ponzi-soul-scheme and still has her beauty/power/youth/immortality. If she can kill the remaining two demons and get out of those deals, she gets away with all her stuff intact with no long-term consequences.
...except, of course, for the consequences of using the Chain Veil, which is implied to do Bad Things to the user.
OK but what would be those long-term consequences if she wouldn't break her deals with the demons?
If she asked them for immortality and youth they would obviously never get her soul. Is there something Im missing?
They're demons. They're going to hold her to whatever terms are in the contracts she negotiated (twisting the wording to screw her over as hard as they can), or they'll yank their gifts right back. She's basically at their beck and call, and she's not the sort that likes to work for others.
That's typically how demonic contracts work in fantasy literature, anyway.
A spark is intangible and a part of a being's soul. A spark's link to the physical world is sometimes described as a planeswalker's "center of consciousness."
If her contract with the demon required her to planeswalk (like with Kothophed) then her soul would be kept intact until the bargain was reached and not before. I'd be willing to bet that any demon worth his wings wouldn't just squander the chance to use a planeswalker for one measly soul.
Baseless Speculation: what if one of the demons is Ob Nixilis on Zendikar? It would make for a nice way to shoehorn her into that return block.
Baseless Speculation: what if one of the demons is Ob Nixilis on Zendikar? It would make for a nice way to shoehorn her into that return block.
Baseless Speculation is an infractable offense. You can read the subforum rules where it is clearly stated. For now, I'm going to be lenient and let you off with a warning.
And no. Ob is not even a traditional demon. He chose the form of a demon as a walker, and when his spark was burnt out, he was stuck like that.
Also, he seems more interested in Garruk according to DotP.
Also, he seems more interested in Garruk according to DotP.
Which DotP is this from? And why would Ob Nixilis be interested in Garruk?
The upcoming one.
There's a video of a playtest floating around somewhere.
Ob is interested in seeing if Garruk can get his curse removed, because if he can, Ob might be able to use the same process to cure himself, by his own logic at least.
Im interested in Liliana as a character but one thing I never really got is what the consequence is when she has killed the demons. I know she has sold her soul but she looks pretty healthy and powerful to me so what would be the difference anyway?
besides the possibility of dying and being tortured by four different demons? getting out of that is reason enough no one ever plans to die. even so liliana is in a better position than most to know what might happen if she does mitigate that as much as possible would have to be a pretty high priority. depends on the deal which we aren't likely to know the specifics of we can assume that being at their beck and call is likely part of it something else she won't have liked at all.
I believe that she will end up fighting these last 2 demons but right now you cant really know.
One thing though, will she actually fully regain her soul if she does kill the last 2 or will she still not possess it?
I think that we'll definitely see the demons at some point. However, what I'm curious about is how this actually works. Demons on Innistrad just respawn when you kill them so Griselbrand WILL be back. I'm not sure killing something that just respawns will eliminate the debt. I can't remember what panel it was but someone intimated that Liliana is pretty short sighted and has no idea what's coming down the pipe for her.
I think that we'll definitely see the demons at some point. However, what I'm curious about is how this actually works. Demons on Innistrad just respawn when you kill them so Griselbrand WILL be back. I'm not sure killing something that just respawns will eliminate the debt. I can't remember what panel it was but someone intimated that Liliana is pretty short sighted and has no idea what's coming down the pipe for her.
The demons themselves don't come back. Their essence just goes on to form new demons.
Since the spark is linked to the soul, I'm pretty sure Liliana sold her soul figuratively, not literally - The 4 Demons must be aware of her planeswalking abilities, so she offered her "soul" in the form of "planeswalking services", the only thing that surprises me is that none of the demons wondered if taking her soul directly grants them the ability to planeswalk or not, quite a flaw, considering demons of all beings not named Memnarch would most likely want to test that theory out. I can't imagine Liliana has anything else short of those two (her soul and her planeswalking services) to offer for eternal youth and power that would appeal to the Demons.
And to be honest, I don't feel that the other two demons being that important. Griselbrand was pretty important to Innistrad's storyline and he was removed in a single UR article. They're feeling more and more like "background characters of Liliana's history placed to emphasize on the Chain Veil's power" as more time passes - it sort of feels that to be a credible threat to Liliana, you need to be able to be immune to and outpower the Chain Veil and only Garruk seems to the heading in that direction (He's starting to adapt and accept the curse and it does feel like the curse empowers him rather than weakening him.)
I think that we'll definitely see the demons at some point. However, what I'm curious about is how this actually works. Demons on Innistrad just respawn when you kill them so Griselbrand WILL be back. I'm not sure killing something that just respawns will eliminate the debt. I can't remember what panel it was but someone intimated that Liliana is pretty short sighted and has no idea what's coming down the pipe for her.
The demons themselves don't come back. Their essence just goes on to form new demons.
Ah yes. Thank you. I must have misunderstood that bit of lore.
And to be honest, I don't feel that the other two demons being that important. Griselbrand was pretty important to Innistrad's storyline and he was removed in a single UR article. They're feeling more and more like "background characters of Liliana's history placed to emphasize on the Chain Veil's power" as more time passes - it sort of feels that to be a credible threat to Liliana, you need to be able to be immune to and outpower the Chain Veil
They could easily say that she's going after them from least to most powerful and in any event its too perfect of a plot seed for them to ignore.
And to be honest, I don't feel that the other two demons being that important. Griselbrand was pretty important to Innistrad's storyline and he was removed in a single UR article. They're feeling more and more like "background characters of Liliana's history placed to emphasize on the Chain Veil's power" as more time passes - it sort of feels that to be a credible threat to Liliana, you need to be able to be immune to and outpower the Chain Veil
They could easily say that she's going after them from least to most powerful and in any event its too perfect of a plot seed for them to ignore.
I completely agree with you, Vorthospike, and I shall also add my own idea that each demon shall be more important to the plot than the previous one; i.e., Kothophed and Griselbrand were only briefly mentioend, but I believe that her quest to rid herself of the final two shall be a central story element of a future block.
Also, I have been wondering: demons cannot normally travel across planes, but, two of them have been from different planes, suggesting that the final two are from different planes, as well, and the fact that Liliana made a pact with four of them suggests that they were somehow working in collaboration, as I doubt that Liliana would contact four demons on separate occasions and make a pact with each one individually, as that is utterly foolish and disastrous. What does everyone else say about that?
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“Those who would trade their freedoms for security will have neither.”-Benjamin Franklin
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
I completely agree with you, Vorthospike, and I shall also add my own idea that each demon shall be more important to the plot than the previous one; i.e., Kothophed and Griselbrand were only briefly mentioend, but I believe that her quest to rid herself of the final two shall be a central story element of a future block.
Also, I have been wondering: demons cannot normally travel across planes, but, two of them have been from different planes, suggesting that the final two are from different planes, as well, and the fact that Liliana made a pact with four of them suggests that they were somehow working in collaboration, as I doubt that Liliana would contact four demons on separate occasions and make a pact with each one individually, as that is utterly foolish and disastrous. What does everyone else say about that?
I'm not sure about that. If she promised her soul to each of them, would they each have accepted if they knew the other(s) already had a claim on it? It seems more likely she attempted to game the system by promising the same thing to each individually, allowing her to reap 4 times the benefit.
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as I doubt that Liliana would contact four demons on separate occasions and make a pact with each one individually, as that is utterly foolish and disastrous. What does everyone else say about that?
We've been told this is exactly what she did.
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I presume that the other two demons shall appear at some point in the future of the story, but when that may be is very uncertain, although I am certain that they shall be major characters when they do appear, likely when Liliana is again a major focus of the story.
What does everyone else say about this? Will the story eventually feature the other two demons to whom Liliana is indebted? Is there any room for speculation, currently, or is there simply too little information at the present time to speculate about it?
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
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The only information we have is a name that technically doesn't exist.
In the physical copy of the webcomics, in the Wild Son, a name gets mentioned about her that has since been purged from the online version.
"Belzenlok" (or something close to that.)
Other than that, we have no real info. If Lili is in a block, the demon will be significant, if it happens outside, they won't.
She negotiated a series of deals with four different demons on four different planes in an effort to retain her power, youth, and beauty after the Mending rendered her mortal. The consequence of this, of course, is that she sold her soul in the bargain, and Liliana doesn't like owing anyone anything. What's interesting is that (per Brady) she used each of her deals to broker the next one, essentially setting up a Ponzi scheme with her soul as the seed money.
So, when Kothophed called in a favor and tasked her with recovering the Chain Veil, a powerful artifact hidden in the Onnake catacombs on Shandalar, she seized the opportunity to tap into the Veil's power to destroy Kothophed and thereby get out of one of her deals. Now that she's also taken care of Griselbrand, she's gotten out of paying two of the four "investors" in her Ponzi-soul-scheme and still has her beauty/power/youth/immortality. If she can kill the remaining two demons and get out of those deals, she gets away with all her stuff intact with no long-term consequences.
...except, of course, for the consequences of using the Chain Veil, which is implied to do Bad Things to the user.
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OK but what would be those long-term consequences if she wouldn't break her deals with the demons?
If she asked them for immortality and youth they would obviously never get her soul. Is there something Im missing?
That's typically how demonic contracts work in fantasy literature, anyway.
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Even assuming humans can live without souls, if Lili's contracts are voided she might lose her ability to planeswalk.
Art is life itself.
Baseless Speculation: what if one of the demons is Ob Nixilis on Zendikar? It would make for a nice way to shoehorn her into that return block.
Baseless Speculation is an infractable offense. You can read the subforum rules where it is clearly stated. For now, I'm going to be lenient and let you off with a warning.
And no. Ob is not even a traditional demon. He chose the form of a demon as a walker, and when his spark was burnt out, he was stuck like that.
Also, he seems more interested in Garruk according to DotP.
You are wise and merciful and just. Thank you from the deepest recesses of my being.
Which DotP is this from? And why would Ob Nixilis be interested in Garruk?
There's a video of a playtest floating around somewhere.
Ob is interested in seeing if Garruk can get his curse removed, because if he can, Ob might be able to use the same process to cure himself, by his own logic at least.
besides the possibility of dying and being tortured by four different demons? getting out of that is reason enough no one ever plans to die. even so liliana is in a better position than most to know what might happen if she does mitigate that as much as possible would have to be a pretty high priority. depends on the deal which we aren't likely to know the specifics of we can assume that being at their beck and call is likely part of it something else she won't have liked at all.
One thing though, will she actually fully regain her soul if she does kill the last 2 or will she still not possess it?
Liliana sure seems to think that killing the demons will get her out of it.
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The demons themselves don't come back. Their essence just goes on to form new demons.
And to be honest, I don't feel that the other two demons being that important. Griselbrand was pretty important to Innistrad's storyline and he was removed in a single UR article. They're feeling more and more like "background characters of Liliana's history placed to emphasize on the Chain Veil's power" as more time passes - it sort of feels that to be a credible threat to Liliana, you need to be able to be immune to and outpower the Chain Veil and only Garruk seems to the heading in that direction (He's starting to adapt and accept the curse and it does feel like the curse empowers him rather than weakening him.)
Ah yes. Thank you. I must have misunderstood that bit of lore.
They could easily say that she's going after them from least to most powerful and in any event its too perfect of a plot seed for them to ignore.
I completely agree with you, Vorthospike, and I shall also add my own idea that each demon shall be more important to the plot than the previous one; i.e., Kothophed and Griselbrand were only briefly mentioend, but I believe that her quest to rid herself of the final two shall be a central story element of a future block.
Also, I have been wondering: demons cannot normally travel across planes, but, two of them have been from different planes, suggesting that the final two are from different planes, as well, and the fact that Liliana made a pact with four of them suggests that they were somehow working in collaboration, as I doubt that Liliana would contact four demons on separate occasions and make a pact with each one individually, as that is utterly foolish and disastrous. What does everyone else say about that?
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
I'm not sure about that. If she promised her soul to each of them, would they each have accepted if they knew the other(s) already had a claim on it? It seems more likely she attempted to game the system by promising the same thing to each individually, allowing her to reap 4 times the benefit.
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