well the whole "rathi sliver=snake, shandalar sliver=humanoid" is the only thing that make sense (except it doesn't... shandalar was around for a long time and no one ever saw a sliver... well but now wotc is slapping everything on shandalar mindlessly so who cares). too bad that this is an explaination you made krishnath. official sources didn't say anything good.
also, i guess that frenzy sliver shows us that slivers work the same on every world... but i guess i'm being just too clever and wotc can't be at my level.
damn it, i wanted to say also that the fact spinneret sliver it's still a sliver with few spider-like features and not a spider with random tendrils negates the whole "sliver who ate a human become a humanoid", but i guess wotc is too dumb for this too
Oh please, if you are referring to the old Microprose game, besides the game area being entirely random each game (great replay value there), it only ever showed us one continent, and as continents go, it wasn't even that large. Who's to say that there wasn't other continents elsewhere on the plane? Besides, this was in the early days of M:TG and slivers hadn't even been concepted yet. >.<
Besides, I never once said that they where native to Shandalar, and it was quite a while ago that we visited the plane in the old game. It was around Ice Age if I recall correctly in the back story. That means that there was probably plenty of time for slivers to have gotten stranded there, and considering the hyperevolution that slivers are capable off...
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The new look isn't what annoys me. What annoys me is why the hell are they on Shandalar.
Why not?
We don't actually know where Slivers came from originally. They weren't native to Rath and Dominaria after all. And they're probably not native to Shandalar either.
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i dunno bout this krishnath. you seem to be making a few leaps in conclusion just to have the slivers sound legit. The reason i made this thread is because its pretty clear that these slivers are just a stunt. I did wonder, however, if someone else had any idea what the whole deal with their new art and new location was
I have always thought of slivers as coming from some far away and alien plane, and get introduced to other planes through careless walkers who summon them to other worlds. They then evolve (as slivers do, as an analogy for evolution), to fill the needs of their hive on that particular plane.
On Rath/Dominaria they look one way. On Shandalar another, and so on.
It neatly explains the differences between the old slivers and these new neo-slivers.
this unfortunately doesn't cut it. the glaring issue is this: why is it that slivers would breed and evolve but any other creature summoned by a planeswalker doesn't. Its easy enough to say "oh they are adaptable" but its just such a cop-out. That kind of thinking is exactly what wizards is hoping people will think because it saves them having to explain what they are doing to one of the most popular tribes in the whole game
this unfortunately doesn't cut it. the glaring issue is this: why is it that slivers would breed and evolve but any other creature summoned by a planeswalker doesn't. Its easy enough to say "oh they are adaptable" but its just such a cop-out. That kind of thinking is exactly what wizards is hoping people will think because it saves them having to explain what they are doing to one of the most popular tribes in the whole game
Because evolution is the slivers entire "Schtick". This was established way back in Tempest and reiterated during their first return in Legions.
Slivers evolve, rapidly. Extremely rapidly. If there is an empty ecological niche, slivers will evolve to fill it. This is what allowed them to annihilate the Riptide project, overrun Otaria, and eventually spread to the entirety of Dominaria within just a few centuries.
Slivers evolve, slivers adapt, and slivers dominate.
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On Rath/Dominaria they look one way. On Shandalar another, and so on.
It neatly explains the differences between the old slivers and these new neo-slivers.
Except the official quotes that we have pretty much boil down to WotC thought "the shape was used up." Supposedly they designed them so they could make more in the future. Unless all future slivers will be from Shandalar, I don't see new SINO redesigns, this will be the look going forward, regardless of plane. There will be no "so on."
I don't see any neat explanation, other than they decided to change the look. The flavor on Hive Stirrings and Megantic Sliver present something were one could somehow try to stretch how original slivers are related or offshoots, but nothing is really going to work.
I can hope that the negative reaction from sliver-fans would somehow overshadow any enthusiasm from newer players and they could say "Oh, those were just Shandalar slivers, never mind!" So in a way, I would like what you are saying to be true.
I remember some Aliens toys in the 90s that had some pretty strange variations, but they still had "Alien" traits that made them recognizable. As slivers are kind of MTG Aliens, I wish they had decided to keep something of the morphology with the redesign.
I wish they had decided to keep something of the morphology with the redesign.
Agreed. They need something to tie them together. These new slivers barely even look like each other a lot of the time. You've got metallic predators, a giant treefolk and fleshy beasts all wrapped up into one creature type.
"Each new generation of slivers evolves to assimilate the strengths of the prey upon which their progenitors fed"
"slivers evolves to ASSIMILATE THE STRENGHTS of the prey"
"ASSIMILATE THE STRENGHTS"
"ASSIMILATE THE STRENGHTS"
so that's how i, and other people with a normal people i presume, think it works:
sliver eats a human
sliver become more intelligent, with a bigger and more organizated brain
that's how wotc think it works:
slivers eats human
sliver grows 2 (or more) arms, 2 (or more) legs, a head, dreadlocks, a face, tail falls off
and don't start talking about what happen if a sliver eats a treefolk....
.... did i need to say assimilate the strenghts again?
There is not a facepalm large enough. >.<
You are of course aware that our bipedal and upright form combined with our very advanced cerebral mass is the reason *why* human kind is the dominant species of earth right? Right?
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"Each new generation of slivers evolves to assimilate the strengths of the prey upon which their progenitors fed"
It just occurred to me that this is really strange. Why would slivers want to adopt characteristics of a species who was clearly inferior (they were being eaten, after all)? I guess they only "assimilate the strengths", but that's not how evolution works... This sounds more like the Borg all of a sudden, and we've already got some of those in MTG. I'm liking this change less and less.
Unlikely - while the Slivers are in many ways looking like "generic humanoid race 8472" now they do have common traits. Those traits - while not always all present at the same time and in varying prominence on each art (as to be expected in multiple depictions of a bio-diverse species) - are recognizable in all arts I've spotted so far.
So unless you think one or a few re-used pieces of art from some kind of abandoned race spawned all the other arts or that there was a quiet large batch of unused art of a non-Sliver bio-diverse Species lying around the likely explanation is that the artists had a central style guide to refer to i. e. the art was created after the conception of the new Sliver style.
On the other hand you can now suggest all pieces not fitting the criteria could be altered after completion, but that starts to enter conspiracy theory territory.
Why yes, I do think there were at least a few pieces of art that were part of another non-sliver bio-diverse species. What is that species you ask? Phyrexians. Now, there are plenty of pieces of the new slivers that look fairly reminiscent of the old style, so I'm certain that they came up with a new style guide for them. However, many of the pieces look like they would fit right at home on new phyrexia. As it has been pointed out earlier, some of these slivers look extremely similar to the preators and some others look quite complaeted to me.
You have a valid point in saying that altering art is entering conspiracy territory, but at the same time would any of the arts require altering? If this art were used in new phyrexia, I doubt many people would have any major objections. If there were any alters, the only part I think that would need altering would be the background. Even that could reasonably be cropped out on the card frame.
And it only took 'em centuries of eating people to grow them. And they still live in Hives. Where human hands are useless. For making and diging said Hives.
The stupidity of this way of thinking is mindboggling.
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“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.” —Volrath
And they still live in Hives. Where human hands are useless. For making and diging said Hives.
The stupidity of this way of thinking is mindboggling.
That's like saying "why do warrior ants have big mandibles, they can't dig". Division of labour, dudebro.
Also, Shandalar slivers aren't Dominaria slivers. If you want a flavour justification, Riptide locked down the sliver morphology and increased their psi-links.
(Honestly I'm upset Slivers didn't get more diverse art before this point, maybe with shared head morphology.)
That's like saying "why do warrior ants have big mandibles, they can't dig". Division of labour, dudebro.
Not really, since ants body plan help them get arround their tunnels etc. A humanoid form would really be a hindrance. All new slivers have it, so none of then would be very good at building and sustaining the structure they need to survive. This division of labor is horrible, sine it takes centuries of eating people to occur. And very spontanios. And is not really helping the species. scumbag genetics.
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“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.” —Volrath
meh, of course you are wrong! humanoids are better at living underground than snake creatures! big treefolk are even better at living in tiny tunnels!
also, other question about a thing that doesn't make sense (god, these slivers have somany nonsense things): who made the new sliver construct and why? and especially... how, since new slivers don't have a clear body style?
Wait.
From where exactly do you get that slivers live underground? From what I remember the only slivers that where ever described as living below ground where the original seventeen that where released in Tempest block. And they where only there because the Phyrexians/Evincar of Rath put them there. Every sliver group since then have been primarily surface dwelling. >.<
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From where exactly do you get that slivers live underground? From what I remember the only slivers that where ever described as living below ground where the original seventeen that where released in Tempest block. And they where only there because the Phyrexians/Evincar of Rath put them there. Every sliver group since then have been primarily surface dwelling. >.<
Building a nest underground =/= being a subterranean species. Many real world animals do the same, ranging from ant and bee species, to snakes, lizards, bats, foxes, and badgers. To name a few.
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Building a nest underground =/= being a subterranean species. Many real world animals do the same, ranging from ant and bee species, to snakes, lizards, bats, foxes, and badgers. To name a few.
But their home is underground, which means their bodies still need to be adapted for subterranean travel.
Presumably, the big, army wrecking and world observing Slivers live outside the hive. The small ones (eg those Sliver Tokens) live inside. Note how the most humanoid and largest of all Slivers that have been revealed are drawn with open space around them and/or sky above their heads?
Also, according to A Voice for Vorthos, Slivers can shapeshift, reshuffling shells and inflating or emptying those fleshcoils according to environment and current jobs. Probably they can change size to fit inside if they have to.
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But their home is underground, which means their bodies still need to be adapted for subterranean travel.
Foxes, Bats, and various other animals that nest underground do not have bodies that are adapted for subterranean travel. Neither are the bodies of trap door spiders. Your analogy is flawed.
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Why are elves, goblins, merfolk and vampires allowed have varied physiology across planes, but slivers are not?
Some goblins have turtle-like shells (Akki).
Some vampires have black sclera.
Some merfolk have legs.
Some elves have horns.
Why shouldn't slivers be granted this same freedom?
Because in my opinion, Nostalgia. :U
But more so, slivers are something unique to magic that people have come to identify with as a certain way, and woe to those who want to conceive these creatures as anything but serpentine meat-hooks that we've all come to know and love. The other creatures you list are out of the hands of creative since it's been shown there's already been tons of variation before Magic can do anything about it. Moreover, these variations are uncommon at best, so its easy for the crowd to ignore and brush off.
Plus, most of those have tacked-on body parts/features as opposed to a relative overhaul slivers show.
Why are elves, goblins, merfolk and vampires allowed have varied physiology across planes, but slivers are not?
Some goblins have turtle-like shells (Akki).
Some vampires have black sclera.
Some merfolk have legs.
Some elves have horns.
Why shouldn't slivers be granted this same freedom?
i'm sure there can be interplanar differences, but the thing is that these new slivers look like an entirely different species. the only thing that identifies them as slivers is their mechanic (even though thats been butchered as well). If we didn't know they were slivers we would assume they were phyrexians, or a new species entirely.
The other thing is that goblins, vampires, merfolk and elves are not species invented by wizards themselves. they are cultural creations from all over the world and therefore one interpretation of them by wizards would be very narrow. Slivers on the other hand, are an invention of wizards and they should remain the same
Wouldn't it be arguably more reason to change something if you are the creator? You don't have a widespread culture and a long established template to weigh you down, where almost anyone even outside of your target audience can identify with accuracy whether or not it is what you say it is.
Being the creator, Wizards is master of their fates, and can change Slivers any way they pleased. More so than any other creature type with long set characteristics that extend beyond the game, at least. All they really can be held accountable for is how much they'll appeal to the player base's own expectations on what Sliver should be, as opposed Wizard's own.
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Oh please, if you are referring to the old Microprose game, besides the game area being entirely random each game (great replay value there), it only ever showed us one continent, and as continents go, it wasn't even that large. Who's to say that there wasn't other continents elsewhere on the plane? Besides, this was in the early days of M:TG and slivers hadn't even been concepted yet. >.<
Besides, I never once said that they where native to Shandalar, and it was quite a while ago that we visited the plane in the old game. It was around Ice Age if I recall correctly in the back story. That means that there was probably plenty of time for slivers to have gotten stranded there, and considering the hyperevolution that slivers are capable off...
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Why not?
We don't actually know where Slivers came from originally. They weren't native to Rath and Dominaria after all. And they're probably not native to Shandalar either.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
this unfortunately doesn't cut it. the glaring issue is this: why is it that slivers would breed and evolve but any other creature summoned by a planeswalker doesn't. Its easy enough to say "oh they are adaptable" but its just such a cop-out. That kind of thinking is exactly what wizards is hoping people will think because it saves them having to explain what they are doing to one of the most popular tribes in the whole game
Niv-Mizzet Ramp 'n' Wheel
Godo: Strap him up and turn him sideways!
Because evolution is the slivers entire "Schtick". This was established way back in Tempest and reiterated during their first return in Legions.
Slivers evolve, rapidly. Extremely rapidly. If there is an empty ecological niche, slivers will evolve to fill it. This is what allowed them to annihilate the Riptide project, overrun Otaria, and eventually spread to the entirety of Dominaria within just a few centuries.
Slivers evolve, slivers adapt, and slivers dominate.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Except the official quotes that we have pretty much boil down to WotC thought "the shape was used up." Supposedly they designed them so they could make more in the future. Unless all future slivers will be from Shandalar, I don't see new SINO redesigns, this will be the look going forward, regardless of plane. There will be no "so on."
I don't see any neat explanation, other than they decided to change the look. The flavor on Hive Stirrings and Megantic Sliver present something were one could somehow try to stretch how original slivers are related or offshoots, but nothing is really going to work.
I can hope that the negative reaction from sliver-fans would somehow overshadow any enthusiasm from newer players and they could say "Oh, those were just Shandalar slivers, never mind!" So in a way, I would like what you are saying to be true.
I remember some Aliens toys in the 90s that had some pretty strange variations, but they still had "Alien" traits that made them recognizable. As slivers are kind of MTG Aliens, I wish they had decided to keep something of the morphology with the redesign.
Agreed. They need something to tie them together. These new slivers barely even look like each other a lot of the time. You've got metallic predators, a giant treefolk and fleshy beasts all wrapped up into one creature type.
There is not a facepalm large enough. >.<
You are of course aware that our bipedal and upright form combined with our very advanced cerebral mass is the reason *why* human kind is the dominant species of earth right? Right?
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
It just occurred to me that this is really strange. Why would slivers want to adopt characteristics of a species who was clearly inferior (they were being eaten, after all)? I guess they only "assimilate the strengths", but that's not how evolution works... This sounds more like the Borg all of a sudden, and we've already got some of those in MTG. I'm liking this change less and less.
I still don't get it ... why do they even bother calling them slivers anymore?
Why yes, I do think there were at least a few pieces of art that were part of another non-sliver bio-diverse species. What is that species you ask? Phyrexians. Now, there are plenty of pieces of the new slivers that look fairly reminiscent of the old style, so I'm certain that they came up with a new style guide for them. However, many of the pieces look like they would fit right at home on new phyrexia. As it has been pointed out earlier, some of these slivers look extremely similar to the preators and some others look quite complaeted to me.
You have a valid point in saying that altering art is entering conspiracy territory, but at the same time would any of the arts require altering? If this art were used in new phyrexia, I doubt many people would have any major objections. If there were any alters, the only part I think that would need altering would be the background. Even that could reasonably be cropped out on the card frame.
Nom nom nom, human hands.
Art is life itself.
And it only took 'em centuries of eating people to grow them. And they still live in Hives. Where human hands are useless. For making and diging said Hives.
The stupidity of this way of thinking is mindboggling.
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.”
—Volrath
Also, Shandalar slivers aren't Dominaria slivers. If you want a flavour justification, Riptide locked down the sliver morphology and increased their psi-links.
(Honestly I'm upset Slivers didn't get more diverse art before this point, maybe with shared head morphology.)
Art is life itself.
Not really, since ants body plan help them get arround their tunnels etc. A humanoid form would really be a hindrance. All new slivers have it, so none of then would be very good at building and sustaining the structure they need to survive. This division of labor is horrible, sine it takes centuries of eating people to occur. And very spontanios. And is not really helping the species. scumbag genetics.
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.”
—Volrath
Wait.
From where exactly do you get that slivers live underground? From what I remember the only slivers that where ever described as living below ground where the original seventeen that where released in Tempest block. And they where only there because the Phyrexians/Evincar of Rath put them there. Every sliver group since then have been primarily surface dwelling. >.<
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Just off the top of my head, Battering Sliver.
Building a nest underground =/= being a subterranean species. Many real world animals do the same, ranging from ant and bee species, to snakes, lizards, bats, foxes, and badgers. To name a few.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
But their home is underground, which means their bodies still need to be adapted for subterranean travel.
Also, did you know specialized termite soldiers cannot feed themselves, and have heads so huge they block the tunnels of their hives? They're the main line of defence against ants, and use their own bodies as walls. That reminds me of Megantic Sliver, personally.
Also, according to A Voice for Vorthos, Slivers can shapeshift, reshuffling shells and inflating or emptying those fleshcoils according to environment and current jobs. Probably they can change size to fit inside if they have to.
Art is life itself.
Foxes, Bats, and various other animals that nest underground do not have bodies that are adapted for subterranean travel. Neither are the bodies of trap door spiders. Your analogy is flawed.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Some goblins have turtle-like shells (Akki).
Some vampires have black sclera.
Some merfolk have legs.
Some elves have horns.
Why shouldn't slivers be granted this same freedom?
Because in my opinion, Nostalgia. :U
But more so, slivers are something unique to magic that people have come to identify with as a certain way, and woe to those who want to conceive these creatures as anything but serpentine meat-hooks that we've all come to know and love. The other creatures you list are out of the hands of creative since it's been shown there's already been tons of variation before Magic can do anything about it. Moreover, these variations are uncommon at best, so its easy for the crowd to ignore and brush off.
Plus, most of those have tacked-on body parts/features as opposed to a relative overhaul slivers show.
i'm sure there can be interplanar differences, but the thing is that these new slivers look like an entirely different species. the only thing that identifies them as slivers is their mechanic (even though thats been butchered as well). If we didn't know they were slivers we would assume they were phyrexians, or a new species entirely.
The other thing is that goblins, vampires, merfolk and elves are not species invented by wizards themselves. they are cultural creations from all over the world and therefore one interpretation of them by wizards would be very narrow. Slivers on the other hand, are an invention of wizards and they should remain the same
Niv-Mizzet Ramp 'n' Wheel
Godo: Strap him up and turn him sideways!
Being the creator, Wizards is master of their fates, and can change Slivers any way they pleased. More so than any other creature type with long set characteristics that extend beyond the game, at least. All they really can be held accountable for is how much they'll appeal to the player base's own expectations on what Sliver should be, as opposed Wizard's own.