If we were to shoehorn planeswalkers into Ravnican guilds...

  • #51
    Quote from krishnath
    Not evil... right.

    Did you even pay attention during Innistrad block?


    You mean the block where she saved everyone's asses by forcing Thalia to choose the Helvault to be destroyed?
  • #52
    Quote from Mullerornis
    You mean the block where she saved everyone's asses by forcing Thalia to choose the Helvault to be destroyed?


    By threatening to murder everyone protecting it in the first place?
    Is actually rather hairy.
    Level 1 Judge
    I write flavor articles for RoxieCards.
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  • #53
    Quote from Mullerornis
    You mean the block where she saved everyone's asses by forcing Thalia to choose the Helvault to be destroyed?

    Which she did only to get a chance of finding Griselbrand. For all intents and purposes, the "save" part was a side-effect.
  • #54
    Quote from krishnath
    She showed her evil side before she got to the veil in the comics.

    She is a necromancer who animates the dead, rapes the minds of her enemies (as shown in the discard ability of her first card), traffics with demons, and inflict plagues upon her enemies.

    Yeah, she is evil.

    Evil people can still have feelings and emotions, and even a conscience, heck they can even believe that what they are doing is good and just, that doesn't make them any less evil.


    Evil is unrepentant. That's the difference.
    When evil thinks it is doing good, it has no qualms.
    Now, I will agree, she is definitely a bad girl, but Lili knows she's doing bad things, and she wishes she could just stop. Mostly, everything she's done, she's been forced to do in the name of continued living.

    We don't know a lot about her life, but it took a major blow when she was cast out INTO THE WILD without protection during a civil war against her father. All because she wanted to help someone she loves.
    All her major choices have probably been about survival since that point, meaning she's done things she didn't want to do.
  • #55
    Quote from Barinellos
    Evil is unrepentant. That's the difference.
    When evil thinks it is doing good, it has no qualms.
    Now, I will agree, she is definitely a bad girl, but Lili knows she's doing bad things, and she wishes she could just stop. Mostly, everything she's done, she's been forced to do in the name of continued living.

    We don't know a lot about her life, but it took a major blow when she was cast out INTO THE WILD without protection during a civil war against her father. All because she wanted to help someone she loves.
    All her major choices have probably been about survival since that point, meaning she's done things she didn't want to do.

    Since she became a planeswalker, she could spend all her time in the lap of luxury if she so wished (and considering how she dresses expensively, she likely does).

    Yes, Lili is motivated by survival, but if she was anything other than evil she'd at least try not to let innocents get hurt in the crossfire of her goals. But the thing is She Just Don't Care.

    She may not have been evil when she ascended, but she *is* evil *now*. And she was evil before she got the veil.
    It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).

    - Feed the Wyrm, Evolve or Die.

    - Never stand in the way of evolution, you'll just get trampled. Grin
  • #56
    Yes, people can be evil, but otherwise "good" people can do evil deeds. I know I've done quite a few things in my life I've needed to ask forgiveness for. and whether it was intended or not, people still got hurt and I still misrepresented - if not downright compromised - my core values and beliefs.
    A lot of people I've hurt don't give a flying durn about my intent, or whether I am repentant or not. In their eyes, what I did was evil.

    We can call specific actions evil without judging the character of the person committing the act. We can also do the same with intentions, and possibly make a general statement based on a character's personality type.

    to call Liliana evil because she has done evil deeds would be the same as calling Toshi Umezawa and even Urza evil. Both of these characters are highly revered in MTG canon, but they've both committed some pretty heinious acts in their respective stories...and they were the GOOD guys.
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  • #57
    But the thing is she does care, but she doesn't want to because it makes her feel guilty about all the crap she does.
    Towards the end of Agents of Artifice, she feels guilt for stringing Jace along like a puppet.
    I'm willing to bet that since then, she's avoided making relationships on places she visits because she knows if she attaches a name and a life to the people she's screwing, she might come to like some of them, and then it will be that much harder to take advantage of them for her benefit.
    Also, the veil explicitly brings out the worst in her when she uses it, and she's needed it to go toe to toe with Garruk and her demon masters.
    Is actually rather hairy.
    Level 1 Judge
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  • #58
    Quote from krishnath
    Since she became a planeswalker, she could spend all her time in the lap of luxury if she so wished (and considering how she dresses expensively, she likely does).

    Yes, Lili is motivated by survival, but if she was anything other than evil she'd at least try not to let innocents get hurt in the crossfire of her goals. But the thing is She Just Don't Care.

    She may not have been evil when she ascended, but she *is* evil *now*. And she was evil before she got the veil.



    Guess Elspeth and Chandra are evil too, as both of them didn't care about several situations that got many people killed, and the latter has a higher body count than Liliana.

    Also, note that previously to acquiring the Veil, Liliana did care. And even when she rampaged through Innistrad, there is the implication that she was largely aside from society's way at large.
  • #59
    Chandra feels pretty guilty whenever she's accidentally killed a bunch of people she didn't think had it coming to them.

    I can't recall when Elspeth has killed a bunch of people, but I haven't read Quest.
    Is actually rather hairy.
    Level 1 Judge
    I write flavor articles for RoxieCards.
    I play Magic at Freedom Cardboard in Alpharetta, Georgia.
  • #60
    Quote from Mullerornis
    Guess Elspeth and Chandra are evil too, as both of them didn't care about several situations that got many people killed, and the latter has a higher body count than Liliana.

    Also, note that previously to acquiring the Veil, Liliana did care. And even when she rampaged through Innistrad, there is the implication that she was largely aside from society's way at large.

    Yes, threatening to murder defenseless people to get what you want is *such* a good trait. /sarcasm
    It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).

    - Feed the Wyrm, Evolve or Die.

    - Never stand in the way of evolution, you'll just get trampled. Grin
  • #61
    Quote from krishnath
    Yes, threatening to murder defenseless people to get what you want is *such* a good trait. /sarcasm

    Once more, and for the last time.
    The Veil is doing it to her.
  • #62
    Quote from Barinellos
    Once more, and for the last time.
    The Veil is doing it to her.

    So people keep telling me, but she summoned the dead, mindraped people to get her way, and consorted with demons before she got the veil. Liliana is not a good person, she hasn't been since her brother died.
    It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).

    - Feed the Wyrm, Evolve or Die.

    - Never stand in the way of evolution, you'll just get trampled. Grin
  • #63
    No one here is trying to claim otherwise, but "not good" =/= "evil".

    The bad things she does because she's backed into a corner or under the influence of an evil artifact that may or may not be possessed by the vengeful spirits of troll cultists, and she's shown regret about it.
    She doesn't look for villages full of soft, squishy people full of blood to murder for the hell of it.
    Is actually rather hairy.
    Level 1 Judge
    I write flavor articles for RoxieCards.
    I play Magic at Freedom Cardboard in Alpharetta, Georgia.
  • #64
    I suppose there are different types of evil in play?

    Evil perceived evil by others, regardless of personal attributions.
    Ruthless pragmatism by a neutral or even good person that can be seen as evil.
    Evil for evil's sake, doing things because they are seen as evil and enjoying it.
    Evil only in so far as someone coercing the person to.

    And so on. "Evil" is a flawed label in an attempt to polarize everything in the world. People do heinous acts in the belief they're doing something noble and pure. Others may express regret over something they felt was unforgivable, even when it ultimately saved tons of others. Overall, good-and evil is a spectrum that is highly subjective and contains far too many categories to tack on the label willy-nilly.

    For the sake of argument, Liliana may be evil, but not by choice. The proponents here that are quick to say she's evil provide a laundry list of actions she's done to prove she's evil, and quite frankly there is some truth to it. Equally, those actions are defended by her motivations and reactions to them, such as guilt, being coerced, or otherwise a necessary course of action. She could have made different, more acceptable alternatives just as much as she could do worse. In the evilness scale, she leans closer to evil but isn't most evil.
  • #65
    Quote from Uii
    I suppose there are different types of evil in play on the battlefield?


    Fixed ;).

    Back on topic: you raise some excellent points, especially in regards to the nature of ‘Evil’ and how differently people can classify it. You can see Liliana as ‘evil’ in some ways, but she is not ‘pure evil’.
  • #66
    Quote from krishnath
    Yes, threatening to murder defenseless people to get what you want is *such* a good trait. /sarcasm


    And burning people alive, killing people in mindless rage, and getting millions of people killed just because you wet your pants is "good"? All these women have remourse over those things, yet somehow only one is "evil", ironically the one who got the least amount of people killed.

    Your whole premise runs on highly hypocritical double standards, considering that Liliana's truly heinou" deeds both post-date the finding of the Veil and the so called "good planeswalkers" actions were not driven by acts of desesperation.
  • #67
    Liliana suffers from a lack of cohesion of character, although this is true for any of the Planeswalkers currently available.

    To say that she's conflicted is simply not acceptable - it weakens her character overall by making it excusable that she doesn't know what she wants, when it is OBVIOUS what she wants, and it is furthermore OBVIOUS what she will do to get it. She's a Necromancer and mistress of Black magic - what she wants, she takes, and it doesn't matter what has to die or return at her beck and call for her to get it. If you stand in her way, she will kill you without a second thought, and just to keep her hand in will make your corpse do juggling tricks with other people's heads for her amusement.

    She is a very ruthless person, and because she's fortunate enough to be a woman others seem to gloss over this ruthlessness because of this. If anything, her 'conflicted'-ness is an act, meant to confuse, distract, and even gain her sympathy that she can use to further her own ambitions. The thing people forget about Black is that it is one of the most direct colors in Magic. Black has no illusions about anything - it sees reality as it really is, rather than how it could be, such as the case is with Green, White, and Blue. It's because of this clarity of thought that Black is able to manipulate others into doing what it wants.
    Last edited by Neuroticneurok: 5/23/2013 11:31:03 PM
  • #68
    ^ Well said. However, is that enough to label Black as ‘evil’?
  • #69
    Quote from Neuroticneurok
    Liliana suffers from a lack of cohesion of character, although this is true for any of the Planeswalkers currently available.

    To say that she's conflicted is simply not acceptable - it weakens her character overall by making it excusable that she doesn't know what she wants, when it is OBVIOUS what she wants, and it is furthermore OBVIOUS what she will do to get it. She's a Necromancer and mistress of Black magic - what she wants, she takes, and it doesn't matter what has to die or return at her beck and call for her to get it. If you stand in her way, she will kill you without a second thought, and just to keep her hand in will make your corpse do juggling tricks with other people's heads for her amusement.

    She is a very ruthless person, and because she's fortunate enough to be a woman others seem to gloss over this ruthlessness because of this. If anything, her 'conflicted'-ness is an act, meant to confuse, distract, and even gain her sympathy that she can use to further her own ambitions. The thing people forget about Black is that it is one of the most direct colors in Magic. Black has no illusions about anything - it sees reality as it really is, rather than how it could be, such as the case is with Green, White, and Blue. It's because of this clarity of thought that Black is able to manipulate others into doing what it wants.



    Oh yes, because internal thoughts about her insecurity are an "act". Geez, I guess I'm deluding myself by thinking about my insecurities and faults.

    I wouldn't say Black is the "most direct". All colours are very direct in judgement. Have you pissed off Red? Get pulverised. Have you pissed off Green? Get pulverised. Have you pissed off Blue? Get pulverised. Have you pissed off White? Get pulverised, or suffer in agony for all eternity.

    Sure, Black has no regard for what is morally apropriate, but Black people are still people. Even demons have insecurities; even from a non-emotional outpoint, Black examines the situation, doesn't jump into it like Red. As shown again and again in Magic's history, Black characters can still love and feel some degree of empathy, even if it's clear who is number 1 in their lives. Under that logic, why aren't all White character mindless robots of justice? Why aren't all Red characters fiery hellions who kill everything? Why aren't all Blue characters nerds?

    Not to mention that your take on Liliana's character is once again only after the Veil was acquired. Which means that it isn't natural to her personality.
    Last edited by Mullerornis: 5/24/2013 8:18:42 PM
  • #70
    It's kind of hard to gauge how much bitchiness is due to the veil or not because most of what we've seen of Liliana in the lore is from after she go the veil.

    We just don't have as much pre-veil activity to compare it to.
    Is actually rather hairy.
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  • #71
    Quote from Gabriel Chase
    ^ Well said. However, is that enough to label Black as ‘evil’?


    It's too convenient to label Black as evil. Certainly it does things the most often that are morally and socially reprehensible, even blasphemous, but evil? All the colors of Magic pursue their own interests in their own ways, and the way Black does this is by doing what all the others won't. Why hire new assistants for research when you can just go to the nearest graveyard and make a few corpse puppets for free? Someone getting in your way and you don't feel like having a reasoned discourse? Destroy them. People coming down the street with torches and pitchforks? Raise an undead army and show them no quarter, and raise what dies to join the rest.

    Black is a very logical color, although the logic it uses differs from that used by Blue. Blue cares about learning, secrets and mysteries, and knowledge. Black cares about power, control, and satisfying itself. If a Blue mage and a Black mage were asked "Where do you see yourself in 10 years?" on a job interview, Black would say "In my CEO penthouse" where Blue would go "Working as a system engineer". For two colors that work well together, they're really mirrors of each other - Blue sees power as a means to gain knowledge, Black sees knowledge as a means to gain power.
  • #72
    All of the colors are capable of evil.

    Black just gets the short end of the stick because
    A: It doesn't do "good" for goodness sake the way the other colors can.
    B: It doesn't really care about morals.
    Is actually rather hairy.
    Level 1 Judge
    I write flavor articles for RoxieCards.
    I play Magic at Freedom Cardboard in Alpharetta, Georgia.
  • #73
    Quote from Neuroticneurok
    It's too convenient to label Black as evil. Certainly it does things the most often that are morally and socially reprehensible, even blasphemous, but evil? All the colors of Magic pursue their own interests in their own ways, and the way Black does this is by doing what all the others won't. Why hire new assistants for research when you can just go to the nearest graveyard and make a few corpse puppets for free? Someone getting in your way and you don't feel like having a reasoned discourse? Destroy them. People coming down the street with torches and pitchforks? Raise an undead army and show them no quarter, and raise what dies to join the rest.

    Black is a very logical color, although the logic it uses differs from that used by Blue. Blue cares about learning, secrets and mysteries, and knowledge. Black cares about power, control, and satisfying itself. If a Blue mage and a Black mage were asked "Where do you see yourself in 10 years?" on a job interview, Black would say "In my CEO penthouse" where Blue would go "Working as a system engineer". For two colors that work well together, they're really mirrors of each other - Blue sees power as a means to gain knowledge, Black sees knowledge as a means to gain power.


    I agree with you completely. To make it clear, I didn’t actually state Black as evil. In fact, on the wizards website they keep stressing that since Black centres on the self as paramount, it leads to individuality and things like the capitalistic society in which we live today.
  • #74
    Quote from hairlessThoctar
    All of the colors are capable of evil.

    Black just gets the short end of the stick because
    A: It doesn't do "good" for goodness sake the way the other colors can.
    B: It doesn't really care about morals.


    To be fair, I don't think green or white would ever self-identify as evil. Green feels it's just following its fate or purpose, and white believes it's genuinely doing good. Don't get me wrong, they are certainly capable of atrocious acts from the point of view of others, but I feel the only colours that would really admit to be evil when they are doing evil are black, red and blue.
  • #75
    Quote from Gabriel Chase
    Fixed ;).

    Back on topic: you raise some excellent points, especially in regards to the nature of ‘Evil’ and how differently people can classify it. You can see Liliana as ‘evil’ in some ways, but she is not ‘pure evil’.


    LOL! How could I have forgotten! Darned wording changes.

    Anyhow, I wonder what the collective creative's true intents were in creating some characters. Like "Oh, she's gotta be made to be super evil. Don't skimp out." rather than "Lets make her a misunderstood character who's a victim of circumstance"?

    I mean, it's much harder to argue Nicol Bolas isn't pure evil. (Though, it makes want to imagine some sort of Planar Chaos goodguy Bolas)
    Last edited by Uii: 5/26/2013 2:05:02 AM
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