"I hear that Boros is losing its angels to the Gateless Movement. I am sure this comes as no surprise to you"
Teysa to Lazav
And that creature just so happens to put an angel into play
Could Orzhov be behind the return of Angels on Ravnica? There was a thread dedicated to how the Angels in RtR do not share the features of the original set (the four wings)
I interpret the flavour text as the Boros angels are joining the Gateless (you could argue it is more literal: the Gateless are killing the angels) and it just struck me: maybe the current crop of Boros Angels are secretly of Orzhov origin and they have some kind of masterplan that runs parallel to Lazav's?
Interesting thought. I imagine this thread will eventually be closed for Baseless Speculation, but I'll leave it open for now.
One thing I will say: a member of the Orzhov creating a firemane feels pretty wrong.
But that's exactly the point, these angels are not Firemane in the traditional sense of the word which I find lends creedence to the theory.
How do you differentiate between storyline speculation and baseless? I thought about it for a while but I figured since this is based on an card we know is real this board is where this topic belongs no?
Yeah, totally! Your original post is fine, but there's not really any discussion that can be had. I'll leave it open in case I'm wrong, but after a few "Yep, could be. Then again, maybe not," posts, I'll close it. That's what really defines baseless speculation to me: the inability to talk about it.
If anyone wants to discuss baseless speculation in general, please visit my helpdesk instead of derailing this thread (there's a link in my sig). Thanks.
I think the more likely explanation is that the Orzhov are manipulating the gateless movement. The Orzhov don't have to directly control the angels (or any other group for that matter), but it seems pretty in character to have one of their agents hidden as a boros guard who then incites violence against the gateless, prompting the angels to split and protect them.
Do you mean the Dimir, Mman? I wouldn't put it past the Orzhov to try something like that (or maybe contract out), but that's more Dimir's thing.
Err, yeah, I meant the Dimir.
I don't think the Orzhov would do anything in secret. They racket in intimidation, and the only way that works if it is evident to everybody what not complying does for you.
I think the more likely explanation is that the Orzhov are manipulating the gateless movement. The Orzhov don't have to directly control the angels (or any other group for that matter), but it seems pretty in character to have one of their agents hidden as a boros guard who then incites violence against the gateless, prompting the angels to split and protect them.
Not a bad idea
For me the telltale sign was that the angels do indeed look different from last time and considering how flavour focused WotC is these days (not that they weren't before) it seems almost impossible that the fact that RtR angel's don't have the four wings is just a mistake. Since the other guild with angels at their disposal is Orzhov I thought maybe they secretly made angels and "loaned" them to the Boros.
According to the planeswalker's guide to Gatecrash, Orzhov angels are former Boros or unaligned angels that joined the church, not created by them.
New Orzhov angels are former Boros angels. The original Orzhov angels were creations of the Orzhov.
That's right from both the book and the style guide to the original block.
I wonder how you create an angel? Do you just take a human and pump it full of mana until wings shoot out of its back?
Despite being a semi-religious guild, the Orzhov have very little to do with angels at all. They prefer spirits and thrulls for some reason, and use humans for their dirty work, and lots of them. I know we have things like Deathpact Angel and Angel of Despair for the Orzhov, but they're exceptions.
I wonder how you create an angel? Do you just take a human and pump it full of mana until wings shoot out of its back?
Despite being a semi-religious guild, the Orzhov have very little to do with angels at all. They prefer spirits and thrulls for some reason, and use humans for their dirty work, and lots of them. I know we have things like Deathpact Angel and Angel of Despair for the Orzhov, but they're exceptions.
The angels function more like bodyguards and... well, you don't want to know what else they're used for.
And no, Angels are not humans, aside from one or two cultural outliers which believe angels are reincarnated, like the original Serran angels or the Bant angels.
Despite being a semi-religious guild, the Orzhov have very little to do with angels at all. They prefer spirits and thrulls for some reason, and use humans for their dirty work, and lots of them. I know we have things like Deathpact Angel and Angel of Despair for the Orzhov, but they're exceptions.
I feel like the Orzhov prefer to rely on spirits and thrulls because they're about being in control. Spirits and thrulls either lack free will or are actively serving the Orzhov in order to pay back their debts. Since angels wouldn't normally be viewed as corruptible, the Orzhov would instead have to seek out angels whose goals align with their own.
Another reason would be that having angels would probably knock some Orzhov members down a peg or two. Though the Orzhov are associated with religion, they aren't the ones doing the worship: their congregation is the common citizens of Ravnica. Angels would demand respect and subordination, something the members of the actual Orzhov clergy wouldn't be willing to give. They already take advantage of the subservience given to them by their congregation, they know better than to actually bow down to anyone else.
Since angels wouldn't normally be viewed as corruptible, the Orzhov would instead have to seek out angels whose goals align with their own.
Actually, the angels ARE veeery corruptible. Teysa's father had a pair of angels as his personal bodyguards, and he recruited them because they had acquired special.... tastes that only the Orzhov could provide.
Another reason would be that having angels would probably knock some Orzhov members down a peg or two. Though the Orzhov are associated with religion, they aren't the ones doing the worship: their congregation is the common citizens of Ravnica. Angels would demand respect and subordination, something the members of the actual Orzhov clergy wouldn't be willing to give. They already take advantage of the subservience given to them by their congregation, they know better than to actually bow down to anyone else.
As most of the Orzhov angels were created as figureheads by the higher echelons of the church... they know the score. They're idols, but they aren't ones who can get away with demanding anything from their benefactors.
They could have been regular angels that died and brought back by Obzedat's Aid?
Unlikely, but not impossible.
But there is an entire religious order (with some age behind it) within the Orzhov that deals with said angels (and this is simulated with the cards abilities). So...
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Recently, Jeremy Jarvis said some things on the Wizards forums about how the writers of the original Ravnica trilogy took some liberties towards the nature of angels that were NOT in the style guide, but damned if I can find it.
Barrinellos, do you remember what thread that was in?
Recently, Jeremy Jarvis said some things on the Wizards forums about how the writers of the original Ravnica trilogy took some liberties towards the nature of angels that were NOT in the style guide, but damned if I can find it.
Barrinellos, do you remember what thread that was in?
The thing that kind of annoys me is that he didn't actually answer the question that we bloody well WANTED answered. Which wasn't why the angels didn't look like Razia, but why they DIDN'T HAVE THE FREAKING BUTTWINGS.
That being said, the Orzhov angels WERE in the style guide. We've SEEN their entry there.
He answered that they weren't clones, right? (hence Razia having bronze skin, but Firemane having marble, etc)
Yes, but nobody really cared two whits about that to start with. We knew it was already a wurms in boots situation. What we wanted to know was WHY they threw out the most interesting aspect of the firemane angels. His segue about the Angels of Despair was a non-sequitor when you get right down to it.
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"I hear that Boros is losing its angels to the Gateless Movement. I am sure this comes as no surprise to you"
Teysa to Lazav
And that creature just so happens to put an angel into play
Could Orzhov be behind the return of Angels on Ravnica? There was a thread dedicated to how the Angels in RtR do not share the features of the original set (the four wings)
I interpret the flavour text as the Boros angels are joining the Gateless (you could argue it is more literal: the Gateless are killing the angels) and it just struck me: maybe the current crop of Boros Angels are secretly of Orzhov origin and they have some kind of masterplan that runs parallel to Lazav's?
What do you guys think?
One thing I will say: a member of the Orzhov creating a firemane feels pretty wrong.
But that's exactly the point, these angels are not Firemane in the traditional sense of the word which I find lends creedence to the theory.
How do you differentiate between storyline speculation and baseless? I thought about it for a while but I figured since this is based on an card we know is real this board is where this topic belongs no?
Thanks!
If anyone wants to discuss baseless speculation in general, please visit my helpdesk instead of derailing this thread (there's a link in my sig). Thanks.
Thanks
Err, yeah, I meant the Dimir.
I don't think the Orzhov would do anything in secret. They racket in intimidation, and the only way that works if it is evident to everybody what not complying does for you.
Not a bad idea
For me the telltale sign was that the angels do indeed look different from last time and considering how flavour focused WotC is these days (not that they weren't before) it seems almost impossible that the fact that RtR angel's don't have the four wings is just a mistake. Since the other guild with angels at their disposal is Orzhov I thought maybe they secretly made angels and "loaned" them to the Boros.
EDIT:
Well there goes my cool theory; I thought I was on to something!
New Orzhov angels are former Boros angels. The original Orzhov angels were creations of the Orzhov.
That's right from both the book and the style guide to the original block.
Despite being a semi-religious guild, the Orzhov have very little to do with angels at all. They prefer spirits and thrulls for some reason, and use humans for their dirty work, and lots of them. I know we have things like Deathpact Angel and Angel of Despair for the Orzhov, but they're exceptions.
The angels function more like bodyguards and... well, you don't want to know what else they're used for.
And no, Angels are not humans, aside from one or two cultural outliers which believe angels are reincarnated, like the original Serran angels or the Bant angels.
I feel like the Orzhov prefer to rely on spirits and thrulls because they're about being in control. Spirits and thrulls either lack free will or are actively serving the Orzhov in order to pay back their debts. Since angels wouldn't normally be viewed as corruptible, the Orzhov would instead have to seek out angels whose goals align with their own.
Another reason would be that having angels would probably knock some Orzhov members down a peg or two. Though the Orzhov are associated with religion, they aren't the ones doing the worship: their congregation is the common citizens of Ravnica. Angels would demand respect and subordination, something the members of the actual Orzhov clergy wouldn't be willing to give. They already take advantage of the subservience given to them by their congregation, they know better than to actually bow down to anyone else.
Actually, the angels ARE veeery corruptible. Teysa's father had a pair of angels as his personal bodyguards, and he recruited them because they had acquired special.... tastes that only the Orzhov could provide.
As most of the Orzhov angels were created as figureheads by the higher echelons of the church... they know the score. They're idols, but they aren't ones who can get away with demanding anything from their benefactors.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
They could have been regular angels that died and brought back by Obzedat's Aid?
Unlikely, but not impossible.
But there is an entire religious order (with some age behind it) within the Orzhov that deals with said angels (and this is simulated with the cards abilities). So...
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Barrinellos, do you remember what thread that was in?
Level 1 Judge
I write flavor articles for RoxieCards.
I play and judge at Giga Bites Cafein Marietta, Georgia.
The thing that kind of annoys me is that he didn't actually answer the question that we bloody well WANTED answered. Which wasn't why the angels didn't look like Razia, but why they DIDN'T HAVE THE FREAKING BUTTWINGS.
That being said, the Orzhov angels WERE in the style guide. We've SEEN their entry there.
Level 1 Judge
I write flavor articles for RoxieCards.
I play and judge at Giga Bites Cafein Marietta, Georgia.
Yes, but nobody really cared two whits about that to start with. We knew it was already a wurms in boots situation. What we wanted to know was WHY they threw out the most interesting aspect of the firemane angels. His segue about the Angels of Despair was a non-sequitor when you get right down to it.