Set aside the guided narrative a look at her character objectively.
- Liliana has no flaws from her alignment perspective. I've said this about alignment because someone might bring up ''well, she can't be trusted so that's a flaw'' or ''well, she uses others so that's a flaw''. Liliana is pure black. She is as close to an evil gatewatch member as we're ever going to get. From her alignment perspective all of those would be arguments are nulled. She behaves exactly as she is supposed to. All of her plans are executed flawlessly, she has never been wrong except for one thing made to progress the narrative (the Bolas deal) and create virtual stakes and she overcame all of her ''struggles'' with the greatest of ease.
- Chain Veil is a deus ex machina. This now obviously most powerful item to ever to ever exist in the multiverse period has been an easy fix to all of her problems ever since the character's inception. Garruk attacks you on an unknown plane? Chain veil. Need an army to fight off Emrakul's spawn? Chain Veil. A demon lord to who you own your soul is trying to murder you? Chain Veil. Dead brother came back to life as a lich? Chain veil. Spoiler spoiler blabla Chain Veil bla (figure out the context on your own). Liliana never encounters any struggle because the moment a problem arises she instantly solves it with the Chain Veil which has as much of a drawback as killing the Eldrazi titans, literally none and I wouldn't be surprised if we never learn what the supposed ''drawback'' is.
- Liliana gets away with everything. Let's not lie to ourselves, Liliana is a *****ty person. Everyone around her knows that she is a *****ty person who shouldn't be trusted yet still, Liliana gets away with everything with the greatest of ease. Manipulate friends for your own good? It is ok, we all forgive you because Tezzeret is here on Kaladesh so all turned out fine! Run away from Bolas in the time of need? It is ok, we've all risked out lives there while you just ran away but we're all fine now, good job! Abuse the Chain Veil to no end? Lol wut r consequences? Enter a deal with Bolas that is supposed to kill her? Wait for the novel to come out but it is obvious (not spoilers, just common sense).
In summary: Liliana faces no struggles, overcomes all of her problems with the greatest of ease, never suffers any real consequences and everything pretty much always goes her way except for that one time that the narrative had demanded it.
I can't say you're exactly wrong, but this stinks of sexism for one simple reason. that same basic stuff can be said for ALL of them! None of them really suffer, none experience lasting consequences. their injuries and setbacks have all the long-term impact of om and Jerry injuries, and they took no casualties against 3 Eldrazi titans. they made Liliana the vessel for the solution, then Tamiyo, now Gideon, they take turns carrying the deus ex machina. they are all overpowered compared to what they are supposed to be, they all make the right choice except for when the plot demands they stumble, and PLENTY of personal issues are being put on hold until the world isn't ending. they are all written just as poorly as her, because Wizards SUCKS at story and plot ever since the Gatewatch came along. it's not even like comic books anymore, people die in comic books and might come back later, they turned it into a cartoon
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I'm far from a lore expert, but honestly thats how the whole of the gatewatch appear to me, and why I (mistakenly) had high hopes for this story to climax and wipe things clean.
Regarding other Gatewatch members, unlike Liliana they all grow as characters.
Jace went from ''I know everything better than you, ancient eldrazi expert elder dragon planeswalker, so stfu'' to a character redesign during Ixalan. He actually grew as a character during the story of that block.
Chandra might be as dumb as a brick wall but she has also experience growth at some measure during Kaladesh and Dominaria.
Nissa went from a racist elf to a weird quasi gay or something, whatever wotc was trying to do with her during Kaladesh (I honestly think that even they don't know what they were doing with Nissa), character to the first member of the Gatewatch that left the group after Amonketh and presumably went her own way (until WAR).
Gideon is as flawless as Liliana is, I'll be honest with you and with myself.
My point is, at least they've all had character arcs, had faced their own struggles and grew as characters. They also had to learn to rely on each other to solve their problems. Liliana just does everything on her own, with no struggle whatsoever, hasn't grown as a character up until this point (we still need to wait for the novel) and hasn't learned a damn thing. She was and she had remained flawless.
Prefered her as the black alligned walker that was more or less evil-alligment that didn't give a damn to people weaker than her, and could curse and kill people for litle. The gatewatch lili is boring, most of the empathy i feel for her is because i liked the old character alot.
Nah all gatewatches have plot armor almost all the time, the only that maybe had not was gideon because the plot armor was his power of invulnerability (but vs bigger things it was hinted to not work or be that safe)
I mean Lili is pretty stupid for not reading the fine print of a pact she made with 4 demons and an elder dragon. So that is quite a flaw. In fact I would say that she is not particularly clever and is also pretty superficial.
I enjoyed the bit she had with Gideon on Dominaria. They grew to like each other despite being very different they found common ground. I also like that black is nor evil in particular but can also be associated with freedom. I think that is the driving motivation behind Liliana and also what makes her black.
Not sure we will see growth from her. The WAR story has a chance to change her, so I am interested to see where this goes.
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Drop your knees to the floor
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
Produce thine loiny-secrets onto the table for a measure, Nick and Lil!
Is not Nicol Bolas a bigger Mary Sue than Liliana? Is that not the most simple gratifying thing though, striking down a bigger Mary Sue with a smaller one?
Oh my God, I finally understand the ending of Final Fantasy X!!!
Antagonist is SO strong? Antagonist is unstoppable! Even when we plan and plan to our best, the antagonist's plans and power overwhelm said plans!
Which could be said for regimes, and those ruling populaces in real life.
Now I'm depressed.
Thanks for posting your rant! I'm depressed because of it now!
My counterpoint:
First off leaving out the atrocities that Liliana has done from the Killing Wave to messing up Garruk and the fact that she is unable to open up and be vulnerable enough to have an actual relationship with anyone due to reasons made obvious below.
Anyone remember Magic Origins? Young Lily is desperately trying to heal her dying brother, whom she loves dearly (no not like that, you pervs) and naively takes a potion from a stranger a la disguised Evil Queen and zombifies her brother into a killing machine?
Did you ever wonder what all that power was for in the first place? Why she set off to be the best that she could be?
So that she wouldn't have to ever watch her brother die again or anything close to that.
Queue the rekilling of the undead Jossu Vess in Dominaria to get rid of her final demon.
Of course she is ready to die on that hill. She is as strong as she ever wanted to be, but at the cost of the whole reason she set off to be this strong.
She literally has nothing to live for and no purpose now that she has @$)#(%*ed herself over.
Well, only one reason to live. Nicol Bolas was the person who gave her the potion held the contract with the demons. If she can take him out, she can die peacefully.
You are right, she doesn't seem to really care about Jace, nor the rest of the gatewatch or anything else. But her reason for power turning into "I have to stop anyone from ever going to the lengths that Nicol Bolas did to me in order to gain ultimate power" is too altruistic for her.
Because at the end of the day, she's a teenaged girl trapped in the room with the corpse of her brother she killed twice.
Mary Sue's aren't trapped in those rooms.
Produce thine loiny-secrets onto the table for a measure, Nick and Lil!
Is not Nicol Bolas a bigger Mary Sue than Liliana? Is that not the most simple gratifying thing though, striking down a bigger Mary Sue with a smaller one?
Oh my God, I finally understand the ending of Final Fantasy X!!!
Antagonist is SO strong? Antagonist is unstoppable! Even when we plan and plan to our best, the antagonist's plans and power overwhelm said plans!
Which could be said for regimes, and those ruling populaces in real life.
Now I'm depressed.
Thanks for posting your rant! I'm depressed because of it now!
My counterpoint:
First off leaving out the atrocities that Liliana has done from the Killing Wave to messing up Garruk and the fact that she is unable to open up and be vulnerable enough to have an actual relationship with anyone due to reasons made obvious below.
Anyone remember Magic Origins? Young Lily is desperately trying to heal her dying brother, whom she loves dearly (no not like that, you pervs) and naively takes a potion from a stranger a la disguised Evil Queen and zombifies her brother into a killing machine?
Did you ever wonder what all that power was for in the first place? Why she set off to be the best that she could be?
So that she wouldn't have to ever watch her brother die again or anything close to that.
Queue the rekilling of the undead Jossu Vess in Dominaria to get rid of her final demon.
Of course she is ready to die on that hill. She is as strong as she ever wanted to be, but at the cost of the whole reason she set off to be this strong.
She literally has nothing to live for and no purpose now that she has @$)#(%*ed herself over.
Well, only one reason to live. Nicol Bolas was the person who gave her the potion held the contract with the demons. If she can take him out, she can die peacefully.
You are right, she doesn't seem to really care about Jace, nor the rest of the gatewatch or anything else. But her reason for power turning into "I have to stop anyone from ever going to the lengths that Nicol Bolas did to me in order to gain ultimate power" is too altruistic for her.
Because at the end of the day, she's a teenaged girl trapped in the room with the corpse of her brother she killed twice.
Mary Sue's aren't trapped in those rooms.
Nicol Bolas is not a Marry Sue character. He has had many flaws over the years of publication and has struggled and suffered because of them on numerous occasions.
A boohoo, Liliana killed her brother in that one story that was written before BFZ and referenced three times in the entire Gatewatch saga, first three chapters of Dominaria,and never again. You argument about her suffering due to killing her brother would hold more water if she had ever referenced it, if that was ever mentioned, in the entire Gatewatch story except for 3 times in a set previous to this one.
If there is a reason for Liliana to take out Bolas then it is not altruism. It is her again saving her own skin. Everything that she does is out of selfish reasons and for her own benefit. Liliana doesn't care about anybody else but her.
Just look at the trailer. She doesn't care about her fellow planeswalkers, she even sics the eternals on Gideon. But the shadows of her past (kids getting crushed)? THAT is the trigger that makes her turn on Bolas.
In the end even in her martyrdom, it's still all about her.
All Planeswalkers are inherently Mary Sues. They are people who gain supernatural sparks that keep them young, hot, and special forever. Like Twilight Vampires if becoming a vampire occured from pure force of individual specialness.
All Planeswalkers are inherently Mary Sues. They are people who gain supernatural sparks that keep them young, hot, and special forever. Like Twilight Vampires if becoming a vampire occured from pure force of individual specialness.
1) She has flaws. She is short-sighting, vain, and self-absorbed.
2) A key for a Mary Sue is that they cannot lose in any situation. She loses. She loses more than she wins, actually.
3) A key for a Mary Sue is that either everyone loves them, or if someone doesn't they are shown to be completely wrong to do so. Nissa hates her. Chandra dislikes her. Most of Innistrad hates her. Sorin dislikes her. Only Jace and Gideon are kind of on her side.
Stop using the term for situations that it doesn't apply.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Nicol Bolas is not a Marry Sue character. He has had many flaws over the years of publication and has struggled and suffered because of them on numerous occasions.
-Like how Umezawa killed him when he was the BBEG? He had to lose. He's the BBEG. His only flaw is the BBEG arrogance, which he has due to his character role. A boohoo, Liliana killed her brother in that one story that was written before BFZ and referenced three times in the entire Gatewatch saga, first three chapters of Dominaria,and never again. You argument about her suffering due to killing her brother would hold more water if she had ever referenced it, if that was ever mentioned, in the entire Gatewatch story except for 3 times in a set previous to this one.
-Of the official 5, the only other Gatewatch member whose spark origin holds a candle to Liliana's is Gideon. "Oh )@*# all my friends died because of me, I have to become an invincible planeswalker to never lose a close friend again (until Amonkhet, but we aren't talking about Gideon here). My point is "my bro died" isn't as intense as Gideon's and had already been done with Urza.
Urza...the guy who worked so hard to get his brother back from the Phyrexians that he became a man obsessed and when it came right down to it, didn't rescue his brother from the Phyrexians because he had lost sight of his original goal. Not saying saving Dominaria was not important, but had he not been spurned on to rescue his brother, he would have never found out about the Invasion plans. Invasion is more interesting than losing a brother, but the root is still there. Even after Tempest block where we found out about Planar overlay, Urza block, which told us the start of why Phyrexians were coming, and Nemesis which told us it was nearly upon us. People were really excited for Invasion block, because of the invasion. Not because Urza would probably find out the fate of his brother after all these years.
Liliana made a deal with four demons. What would happen after she took out all of these demons was obvious, she was going to get her brother back...and that is what Belzenlok knew. That's why he made it so that Jossu Vess had to die before he could. He didn't think Liliana would lose sight of her goals... but she did. Cards sold not because of the brother, but because people wanted to find out about these powerful demons. Storywise, it was always about getting her brother back, until she failed herself. If there is a reason for Liliana to take out Bolas then it is not altruism. It is her again saving her own skin. Everything that she does is out of selfish reasons and for her own benefit. Liliana doesn't care about anybody else but her.
-Lol please reread my post starting with "Of course she is ready to die on that hill." and all the way to the bottom. Never said Liliana was looking out for anyone but herself and her brother, and since she (*@#%ed up the latter one, all that is left is to take Bolas out for her on vengeance. Just look at the trailer. She doesn't care about her fellow planeswalkers, she even sics the eternals on Gideon. But the shadows of her past (kids getting crushed)? THAT is the trigger that makes her turn on Bolas.
In the end even in her martyrdom, it's still all about her.
-Yeah...I agree with you completely. The shadows of her past (seeing her self as that little girl who was trying so hard to save her brother from the fate that would utterly snuff both of them out [Nicol Bolas for both the trailer kids and the Vesses]) would throw her life away before having to be reminded yet another time of her original vow (no, not to the Gatewatch, @)*% altruism) to get her brother back.
As is often the case most people don't actually know what a Mary Sue is, only that being one is wrong. So let's look at all the reasonable definitions of a Mary Sue.
An idealized seemingly perfect character. You start off with "other than her flaws she's perfect" so it's hard to even start. She doesn't trust others and shouldn't be trusted. This alone is enough to mark off this troupe.
An author insert character. Very much a no as she was created as a troupe, just not this troupe.
An individual whom can perform feats beyond what their background settings imply. Her background settings come equipped with a deus ex that is meant to solve her problems when her normal powers can't. So...no but only on the technicality that they gave her a truly broken background.
Generally the best and loved by all. Nope, not even close. She was heading there but then she messed up with Chandra on Kaladesh and Jace got his memories back. So only Gideon even likes her a little and he is the quintessential "I like and trust everyone" character.
Upstages the protagonist. Again a hard nope. She was saved when she was the protagonist on Innistrad and didnt upstage anyone on Kaladesh or Amonkeht.
Poorly developed character lacking in realism. This is close. But she underwent actual character development in Dominaria and might undergo further in Rav so I'd say no again.
So with Lily failing to meet a single definition of a Mary Sue I find is impossible to agree with the premise that she is in fact a Mary Sue.
Here is thing there is nothing to suggest Lili cared about her Brother at all. Oldwalkers had massive power, Lili could have tried to fix him anytime but she never went back to Dominaria. No instead she spent over a century plane hopping and mass murdering people left and right. And never once went home.
Urza sure got distracted from saving his brother. Assuming Mishra even savable after the Phyrexia. But at least he didn't wait a century to try. Meanwhile Lili got trikced by Raven Man sort of but has never really done anything about that so she simply didn't care.
She is a Mary Sue because she never actually pays a real price for her crimes.
Here is thing there is nothing to suggest Lili cared about her Brother at all. Oldwalkers had massive power, Lili could have tried to fix him anytime but she never went back to Dominaria. No instead she spent over a century plane hopping and mass murdering people left and right. And never once went home.
I don't know how you can seriously say there is nothing to suggest Lili cared about her brother at all; when the entire story RETURN TO DOMINARIA: EPISODE 2 was about her caring about her brother and family. If you want to say, "there is insufficient evidence" or "There is lots of evidence to the contrary". Those are fine points to stand on, but to say there is no evidence is ludicrous and makes the rest of your argument fall flat.
She is a Mary Sue because she never actually pays a real price for her crimes.
What counts as a 'real price'? I am honestly asking here because it is impossible to have a discussion if we are using the same words but mean different things. While I'm not even sure what a 'real price' constitutes, I know her actions have had consequences that she wasn't happy with.
She cared so much yet she never checked on her family once in a over a century? I am sorry I don't buy it. I am not even saying she have to reveal herself or her new powers but if she cared she could have come back home told her family she was leaving instead of not telling them anything at all and just disappearing. At least leave a letter.
Karn and Teferi made choices and paid massive prices. Teferi peaces out on Urza contributes the Time Rifts and loses Zhalfir. Karn gives up his spark to save the multiverse gets corrupted and brings back Phyrexia.
Those are Heroes who did not intentionally mass murder people for fun, sign deals with Demons, and weren't motivated merely by personal gain like Lili and they paid a higher price for their choices then Lili. Lili got a deal with Demons she easily got out of at little personal cost. It did release a vengeful Nahiri. Then she spent what a few weeks max under Bolas Control. And it looks she will skate on by out of this just fine. At worse Gideon dies but that is hardly an epic romance since it started again at most a few weeks ago on Dominaria.
She cared so much yet she never checked on her family once in a over a century? I am sorry I don't buy it. I am not even saying she have to reveal herself or her new powers but if she cared she could have come back home told her family she was leaving instead of not telling them anything at all and just disappearing. At least leave a letter.
Again, I'm fine with you saying, "There isn't enough evidence" "There is evidence to the contrary" "I don't like the existing evidence". What I'm not fine with is saying there is "NO EVIDENCE" when there is a story whose only purpose is to provide evidence of what you are talking about. Now that you have taken a non ridiculous stance a debate can be had.
Have you never heard of Remorse preventing people from apologizing? Of people regretting not making amends with others until its too late? Disappearing at first was against her will, never going back was her choice and she believed that Josu was dead after she left, she had never imagined that he lived on in undeath killing her entire family. Should she have considered such a fate, of course. But she was a stupid young girl who didn't want to think about her horrible past. Does it make anything she did right? No, but these kinds of flaws don't a mary sue make.
Karn and Teferi made choices and paid massive prices. Teferi peaces out on Urza contributes the Time Rifts and loses Zhalfir. Karn gives up his spark to save the multiverse gets corrupted and brings back Phyrexia.
Those are Heroes who did not intentionally mass murder people for fun, sign deals with Demons, and weren't motivated merely by personal gain like Lili and they paid a higher price for their choices then Lili. Lili got a deal with Demons she easily got out of at little personal cost. It did release a vengeful Nahiri. Then she spent what a few weeks max under Bolas Control. And it looks she will skate on by out of this just fine. At worse Gideon dies but that is hardly an epic romance since it started again at most a few weeks ago on Dominaria.
This might sound sarcastic or mocking but I am trying my best not to sound that way, because I don't mean it that way, as I try and understand your stance. Does everyone who doesn't suffer as tragic a fate as Teferi and Karn constitute being a Mary Sue because they don't face real consequences? Liliana opened herself to people for probably the first time in her life since her family and her actions turned all but one of them against her. Then she is forced to kill the only person that we are told she cared about before. While that doesn't rank up there with being responsible for the erasure of your people or the corruption of your whole world, it does seem like a hefty price. What could happen to Lili, that fits within the narrative of the story, that would constitute a 'real price'? If she was shown to genuinely cared about Josu, would that fratricide then count as a real price? If during the Dominaria story she actually hooked up with Gids would his death then count as a real price? If it turned out that she was lying to herself the entire time and she really did love jace would his new found scorn for her count as a real price?
Here is thing there is nothing to suggest Lili cared about her Brother at all. Oldwalkers had massive power, Lili could have tried to fix him anytime but she never went back to Dominaria. No instead she spent over a century plane hopping and mass murdering people left and right. And never once went home.
Urza sure got distracted from saving his brother. Assuming Mishra even savable after the Phyrexia. But at least he didn't wait a century to try. Meanwhile Lili got trikced by Raven Man sort of but has never really done anything about that so she simply didn't care.
She is a Mary Sue because she never actually pays a real price for her crimes.
Look, I don't think anyone can argue that Lili isn't a piece of *****. The best I can muster is that she maybe wasn't always a piece of *****, and we've seen her, after a long period of being fully committed to being 100% a piece of *****, start evolving as a character and actually trying to be less of a piece of *****. And its clear that she gets away with a lot more than she should, either from a moral perspective of from a "she lucks out of consequences" perspective, but I don't think you can argue she gets off without anything bad happen to her. She turned her brother into a zombie while trying to save his life, which led to her family being wiped out and her eventually having to kill him permanently, while also emotionally scarring her with an extreme fear of death, which led her to do some really phenomenally stupid ***** like sell her soul to demons, trust Bolas, and just generally isolate herself from society. She has no friends except sort of Gideon. She's lonely, she's loathed, she keeps getting herself basically enslaved by horrendously evil monsters, etc. Her life sucks, its all just a quest not to die. Its absolutely true that she probably still hasn't suffered enough given what she's done (though we don't actually see what she did before the mending so we don't know how actively evil she actually was), but she's definitely still suffered a lot and her suffering always came as a direct consequence of her own actions.
Basically, when we are talking about a character that's an obvious piece of ***** that most other characters hate, or at least dislike, and who regularly incurs negative consequences for her *****ty behavior, its clear that we aren't talking about a Mary Sue. Lili is more of a Magnificent Bastard. She has a certain charm, and she's pretty clever (though not as clever as she thinks and her arrogance leads her to underestimate her opponents). While she's evil, she's rarely grossly evil. She raises the dead but we don't see her conducting zombie apocalypses. For a necromancer, she's rather well mannered. Compare her to Gisa. She's no maniac, and she pursues a pretty clear plan (even if its got blind spots).
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
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Yeah but she did that all to herself. She has no friends cause she was a monster. She is in her certain situation cause was dumb. She made a deal with Bolas and 4 Demons and didn't think it go bad?
None of her recent Heroics have been altrustic. I mean Bolas stuffed Lesherac into a time rift that doesnt make him a hero. Much like Lili isn't a hero for killing Demons to get out of a deal she doesnt like and turning on Bolas cause she doesnt like being controlled. She is not doing cause she is good she is doint it cause it helps her.
Define grossly evil cause I think what she did to Thalia was pretty gross.
Yeah but she did that all to herself. She has no friends cause she was a monster. She is in her certain situation cause was dumb. She made a deal with Bolas and 4 Demons and didn't think it go bad?
None of her recent Heroics have been altrustic. I mean Bolas stuffed Lesherac into a time rift that doesnt make him a hero. Much like Lili isn't a hero for killing Demons to get out of a deal she doesnt like and turning on Bolas cause she doesnt like being controlled. She is not doing cause she is good she is doint it cause it helps her.
Define grossly evil cause I think what she did to Thalia was pretty gross.
But how does any of that make her a Mary Sue? A Mary Sue is a perfect character, their life is perfect, everyone likes them and any suffering is superficial.
Everything you've said is true, but this isn't about whether she is a good or likeable character. The question here was is she a Mary Sue. People are using the term to mean a character they don't like which is not what the term means.
People are aware there is different types of Mary Sue, right? That what gets commonly talked about and gets called a Mary Sue, or Gary Stu for that matter, is like the most basic understanding of it.
Yeah but she did that all to herself. She has no friends cause she was a monster. She is in her certain situation cause was dumb. She made a deal with Bolas and 4 Demons and didn't think it go bad?
None of her recent Heroics have been altrustic. I mean Bolas stuffed Lesherac into a time rift that doesnt make him a hero. Much like Lili isn't a hero for killing Demons to get out of a deal she doesnt like and turning on Bolas cause she doesnt like being controlled. She is not doing cause she is good she is doint it cause it helps her.
Define grossly evil cause I think what she did to Thalia was pretty gross.
A Mary Sue is the smartest person in the world. You calling her dumb proves that she isn’t a Mary Sue. Mary Sues also always save the day, and would never do anything grossly evil.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
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Set aside the guided narrative a look at her character objectively.
- Liliana has no flaws from her alignment perspective. I've said this about alignment because someone might bring up ''well, she can't be trusted so that's a flaw'' or ''well, she uses others so that's a flaw''. Liliana is pure black. She is as close to an evil gatewatch member as we're ever going to get. From her alignment perspective all of those would be arguments are nulled. She behaves exactly as she is supposed to. All of her plans are executed flawlessly, she has never been wrong except for one thing made to progress the narrative (the Bolas deal) and create virtual stakes and she overcame all of her ''struggles'' with the greatest of ease.
- Chain Veil is a deus ex machina. This now obviously most powerful item to ever to ever exist in the multiverse period has been an easy fix to all of her problems ever since the character's inception. Garruk attacks you on an unknown plane? Chain veil. Need an army to fight off Emrakul's spawn? Chain Veil. A demon lord to who you own your soul is trying to murder you? Chain Veil. Dead brother came back to life as a lich? Chain veil. Spoiler spoiler blabla Chain Veil bla (figure out the context on your own). Liliana never encounters any struggle because the moment a problem arises she instantly solves it with the Chain Veil which has as much of a drawback as killing the Eldrazi titans, literally none and I wouldn't be surprised if we never learn what the supposed ''drawback'' is.
- Liliana gets away with everything. Let's not lie to ourselves, Liliana is a *****ty person. Everyone around her knows that she is a *****ty person who shouldn't be trusted yet still, Liliana gets away with everything with the greatest of ease. Manipulate friends for your own good? It is ok, we all forgive you because Tezzeret is here on Kaladesh so all turned out fine! Run away from Bolas in the time of need? It is ok, we've all risked out lives there while you just ran away but we're all fine now, good job! Abuse the Chain Veil to no end? Lol wut r consequences? Enter a deal with Bolas that is supposed to kill her? Wait for the novel to come out but it is obvious (not spoilers, just common sense).
In summary: Liliana faces no struggles, overcomes all of her problems with the greatest of ease, never suffers any real consequences and everything pretty much always goes her way except for that one time that the narrative had demanded it.
Spirits
Jace went from ''I know everything better than you, ancient eldrazi expert elder dragon planeswalker, so stfu'' to a character redesign during Ixalan. He actually grew as a character during the story of that block.
Chandra might be as dumb as a brick wall but she has also experience growth at some measure during Kaladesh and Dominaria.
Nissa went from a racist elf to a weird quasi gay or something, whatever wotc was trying to do with her during Kaladesh (I honestly think that even they don't know what they were doing with Nissa), character to the first member of the Gatewatch that left the group after Amonketh and presumably went her own way (until WAR).
Gideon is as flawless as Liliana is, I'll be honest with you and with myself.
My point is, at least they've all had character arcs, had faced their own struggles and grew as characters. They also had to learn to rely on each other to solve their problems. Liliana just does everything on her own, with no struggle whatsoever, hasn't grown as a character up until this point (we still need to wait for the novel) and hasn't learned a damn thing. She was and she had remained flawless.
Prefered her as the black alligned walker that was more or less evil-alligment that didn't give a damn to people weaker than her, and could curse and kill people for litle. The gatewatch lili is boring, most of the empathy i feel for her is because i liked the old character alot.
Nah all gatewatches have plot armor almost all the time, the only that maybe had not was gideon because the plot armor was his power of invulnerability (but vs bigger things it was hinted to not work or be that safe)
Nissa as a Racist elf is not canon anymore btw
I enjoyed the bit she had with Gideon on Dominaria. They grew to like each other despite being very different they found common ground. I also like that black is nor evil in particular but can also be associated with freedom. I think that is the driving motivation behind Liliana and also what makes her black.
Not sure we will see growth from her. The WAR story has a chance to change her, so I am interested to see where this goes.
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
Is not Nicol Bolas a bigger Mary Sue than Liliana? Is that not the most simple gratifying thing though, striking down a bigger Mary Sue with a smaller one?
Oh my God, I finally understand the ending of Final Fantasy X!!!
Antagonist is SO strong? Antagonist is unstoppable! Even when we plan and plan to our best, the antagonist's plans and power overwhelm said plans!
Which could be said for regimes, and those ruling populaces in real life.
Now I'm depressed.
Thanks for posting your rant! I'm depressed because of it now!
My counterpoint:
First off leaving out the atrocities that Liliana has done from the Killing Wave to messing up Garruk and the fact that she is unable to open up and be vulnerable enough to have an actual relationship with anyone due to reasons made obvious below.
Anyone remember Magic Origins? Young Lily is desperately trying to heal her dying brother, whom she loves dearly (no not like that, you pervs) and naively takes a potion from a stranger a la disguised Evil Queen and zombifies her brother into a killing machine?
Did you ever wonder what all that power was for in the first place? Why she set off to be the best that she could be?
So that she wouldn't have to ever watch her brother die again or anything close to that.
Queue the rekilling of the undead Jossu Vess in Dominaria to get rid of her final demon.
Of course she is ready to die on that hill. She is as strong as she ever wanted to be, but at the cost of the whole reason she set off to be this strong.
She literally has nothing to live for and no purpose now that she has @$)#(%*ed herself over.
Well, only one reason to live. Nicol Bolas was the person who gave her the potion held the contract with the demons. If she can take him out, she can die peacefully.
You are right, she doesn't seem to really care about Jace, nor the rest of the gatewatch or anything else. But her reason for power turning into "I have to stop anyone from ever going to the lengths that Nicol Bolas did to me in order to gain ultimate power" is too altruistic for her.
Because at the end of the day, she's a teenaged girl trapped in the room with the corpse of her brother she killed twice.
Mary Sue's aren't trapped in those rooms.
Nicol Bolas is not a Marry Sue character. He has had many flaws over the years of publication and has struggled and suffered because of them on numerous occasions.
A boohoo, Liliana killed her brother in that one story that was written before BFZ and referenced three times in the entire Gatewatch saga, first three chapters of Dominaria,and never again. You argument about her suffering due to killing her brother would hold more water if she had ever referenced it, if that was ever mentioned, in the entire Gatewatch story except for 3 times in a set previous to this one.
If there is a reason for Liliana to take out Bolas then it is not altruism. It is her again saving her own skin. Everything that she does is out of selfish reasons and for her own benefit. Liliana doesn't care about anybody else but her.
Just look at the trailer. She doesn't care about her fellow planeswalkers, she even sics the eternals on Gideon. But the shadows of her past (kids getting crushed)? THAT is the trigger that makes her turn on Bolas.
In the end even in her martyrdom, it's still all about her.
1) She has flaws. She is short-sighting, vain, and self-absorbed.
2) A key for a Mary Sue is that they cannot lose in any situation. She loses. She loses more than she wins, actually.
3) A key for a Mary Sue is that either everyone loves them, or if someone doesn't they are shown to be completely wrong to do so. Nissa hates her. Chandra dislikes her. Most of Innistrad hates her. Sorin dislikes her. Only Jace and Gideon are kind of on her side.
Stop using the term for situations that it doesn't apply.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
-Like how Umezawa killed him when he was the BBEG? He had to lose. He's the BBEG. His only flaw is the BBEG arrogance, which he has due to his character role.
A boohoo, Liliana killed her brother in that one story that was written before BFZ and referenced three times in the entire Gatewatch saga, first three chapters of Dominaria,and never again. You argument about her suffering due to killing her brother would hold more water if she had ever referenced it, if that was ever mentioned, in the entire Gatewatch story except for 3 times in a set previous to this one.
-Of the official 5, the only other Gatewatch member whose spark origin holds a candle to Liliana's is Gideon. "Oh )@*# all my friends died because of me, I have to become an invincible planeswalker to never lose a close friend again (until Amonkhet, but we aren't talking about Gideon here). My point is "my bro died" isn't as intense as Gideon's and had already been done with Urza.
Urza...the guy who worked so hard to get his brother back from the Phyrexians that he became a man obsessed and when it came right down to it, didn't rescue his brother from the Phyrexians because he had lost sight of his original goal. Not saying saving Dominaria was not important, but had he not been spurned on to rescue his brother, he would have never found out about the Invasion plans. Invasion is more interesting than losing a brother, but the root is still there. Even after Tempest block where we found out about Planar overlay, Urza block, which told us the start of why Phyrexians were coming, and Nemesis which told us it was nearly upon us. People were really excited for Invasion block, because of the invasion. Not because Urza would probably find out the fate of his brother after all these years.
Liliana made a deal with four demons. What would happen after she took out all of these demons was obvious, she was going to get her brother back...and that is what Belzenlok knew. That's why he made it so that Jossu Vess had to die before he could. He didn't think Liliana would lose sight of her goals... but she did. Cards sold not because of the brother, but because people wanted to find out about these powerful demons. Storywise, it was always about getting her brother back, until she failed herself.
If there is a reason for Liliana to take out Bolas then it is not altruism. It is her again saving her own skin. Everything that she does is out of selfish reasons and for her own benefit. Liliana doesn't care about anybody else but her.
-Lol please reread my post starting with "Of course she is ready to die on that hill." and all the way to the bottom. Never said Liliana was looking out for anyone but herself and her brother, and since she (*@#%ed up the latter one, all that is left is to take Bolas out for her on vengeance.
Just look at the trailer. She doesn't care about her fellow planeswalkers, she even sics the eternals on Gideon. But the shadows of her past (kids getting crushed)? THAT is the trigger that makes her turn on Bolas.
In the end even in her martyrdom, it's still all about her.
-Yeah...I agree with you completely. The shadows of her past (seeing her self as that little girl who was trying so hard to save her brother from the fate that would utterly snuff both of them out [Nicol Bolas for both the trailer kids and the Vesses]) would throw her life away before having to be reminded yet another time of her original vow (no, not to the Gatewatch, @)*% altruism) to get her brother back.
An idealized seemingly perfect character. You start off with "other than her flaws she's perfect" so it's hard to even start. She doesn't trust others and shouldn't be trusted. This alone is enough to mark off this troupe.
An author insert character. Very much a no as she was created as a troupe, just not this troupe.
An individual whom can perform feats beyond what their background settings imply. Her background settings come equipped with a deus ex that is meant to solve her problems when her normal powers can't. So...no but only on the technicality that they gave her a truly broken background.
Generally the best and loved by all. Nope, not even close. She was heading there but then she messed up with Chandra on Kaladesh and Jace got his memories back. So only Gideon even likes her a little and he is the quintessential "I like and trust everyone" character.
Upstages the protagonist. Again a hard nope. She was saved when she was the protagonist on Innistrad and didnt upstage anyone on Kaladesh or Amonkeht.
Poorly developed character lacking in realism. This is close. But she underwent actual character development in Dominaria and might undergo further in Rav so I'd say no again.
So with Lily failing to meet a single definition of a Mary Sue I find is impossible to agree with the premise that she is in fact a Mary Sue.
Urza sure got distracted from saving his brother. Assuming Mishra even savable after the Phyrexia. But at least he didn't wait a century to try. Meanwhile Lili got trikced by Raven Man sort of but has never really done anything about that so she simply didn't care.
She is a Mary Sue because she never actually pays a real price for her crimes.
What counts as a 'real price'? I am honestly asking here because it is impossible to have a discussion if we are using the same words but mean different things. While I'm not even sure what a 'real price' constitutes, I know her actions have had consequences that she wasn't happy with.
Karn and Teferi made choices and paid massive prices. Teferi peaces out on Urza contributes the Time Rifts and loses Zhalfir. Karn gives up his spark to save the multiverse gets corrupted and brings back Phyrexia.
Those are Heroes who did not intentionally mass murder people for fun, sign deals with Demons, and weren't motivated merely by personal gain like Lili and they paid a higher price for their choices then Lili. Lili got a deal with Demons she easily got out of at little personal cost. It did release a vengeful Nahiri. Then she spent what a few weeks max under Bolas Control. And it looks she will skate on by out of this just fine. At worse Gideon dies but that is hardly an epic romance since it started again at most a few weeks ago on Dominaria.
Have you never heard of Remorse preventing people from apologizing? Of people regretting not making amends with others until its too late? Disappearing at first was against her will, never going back was her choice and she believed that Josu was dead after she left, she had never imagined that he lived on in undeath killing her entire family. Should she have considered such a fate, of course. But she was a stupid young girl who didn't want to think about her horrible past. Does it make anything she did right? No, but these kinds of flaws don't a mary sue make.
This might sound sarcastic or mocking but I am trying my best not to sound that way, because I don't mean it that way, as I try and understand your stance. Does everyone who doesn't suffer as tragic a fate as Teferi and Karn constitute being a Mary Sue because they don't face real consequences? Liliana opened herself to people for probably the first time in her life since her family and her actions turned all but one of them against her. Then she is forced to kill the only person that we are told she cared about before. While that doesn't rank up there with being responsible for the erasure of your people or the corruption of your whole world, it does seem like a hefty price. What could happen to Lili, that fits within the narrative of the story, that would constitute a 'real price'? If she was shown to genuinely cared about Josu, would that fratricide then count as a real price? If during the Dominaria story she actually hooked up with Gids would his death then count as a real price? If it turned out that she was lying to herself the entire time and she really did love jace would his new found scorn for her count as a real price?
Look, I don't think anyone can argue that Lili isn't a piece of *****. The best I can muster is that she maybe wasn't always a piece of *****, and we've seen her, after a long period of being fully committed to being 100% a piece of *****, start evolving as a character and actually trying to be less of a piece of *****. And its clear that she gets away with a lot more than she should, either from a moral perspective of from a "she lucks out of consequences" perspective, but I don't think you can argue she gets off without anything bad happen to her. She turned her brother into a zombie while trying to save his life, which led to her family being wiped out and her eventually having to kill him permanently, while also emotionally scarring her with an extreme fear of death, which led her to do some really phenomenally stupid ***** like sell her soul to demons, trust Bolas, and just generally isolate herself from society. She has no friends except sort of Gideon. She's lonely, she's loathed, she keeps getting herself basically enslaved by horrendously evil monsters, etc. Her life sucks, its all just a quest not to die. Its absolutely true that she probably still hasn't suffered enough given what she's done (though we don't actually see what she did before the mending so we don't know how actively evil she actually was), but she's definitely still suffered a lot and her suffering always came as a direct consequence of her own actions.
Basically, when we are talking about a character that's an obvious piece of ***** that most other characters hate, or at least dislike, and who regularly incurs negative consequences for her *****ty behavior, its clear that we aren't talking about a Mary Sue. Lili is more of a Magnificent Bastard. She has a certain charm, and she's pretty clever (though not as clever as she thinks and her arrogance leads her to underestimate her opponents). While she's evil, she's rarely grossly evil. She raises the dead but we don't see her conducting zombie apocalypses. For a necromancer, she's rather well mannered. Compare her to Gisa. She's no maniac, and she pursues a pretty clear plan (even if its got blind spots).
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
None of her recent Heroics have been altrustic. I mean Bolas stuffed Lesherac into a time rift that doesnt make him a hero. Much like Lili isn't a hero for killing Demons to get out of a deal she doesnt like and turning on Bolas cause she doesnt like being controlled. She is not doing cause she is good she is doint it cause it helps her.
Define grossly evil cause I think what she did to Thalia was pretty gross.
Everything you've said is true, but this isn't about whether she is a good or likeable character. The question here was is she a Mary Sue. People are using the term to mean a character they don't like which is not what the term means.
A Mary Sue is the smartest person in the world. You calling her dumb proves that she isn’t a Mary Sue. Mary Sues also always save the day, and would never do anything grossly evil.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB