And they failed. Miserably. They made the most of him in Amonkhet. He was mustache twirlingly over the top, but he was effective. They did a terrible job before that, and they did a terrible job this set. There were flashes where they did well, with him brushing Gideon aside and shattering the blackblade, but overall he just failed and looked like a chump. And while imprisoning him without power is a better punishment, it's really stupid to do, as it leaves him a window to come back. It's also not what they actually did. They imprisoned him without a spark, so he can't planeswalkers and he has less power, but he's still Nicol Bolas Elder Dragon. He still is nigh immortal and graced with magnificent powers. He had basically all his powers before sparking. It's just such a clear case of a story decision being made for meta reasons over what's right for the story. What's right for the story would have been ending the threat he poses to the multiverse. They didn't. And we've already seen lesser beings get their spark back, so Bolas, an immortal genius and one of the most powerful beings in the multiverse, is almost assured to do so narratively, and absolutely going to do so when wizards decides its time.
Did you not finish the novel? Because your comments on his power read like you did t finish but were just told what happened. Bolas is indeed completely without power he couldn't even muster the simplest of healing spells. Should they have killed him? Honestly no and for the exact reason they gave in the novel he died once before and came back killing him with anything less than a soul destroying method would be more pointless than imprisonment.
I'm choosing to believe that he was temporarily weakened from the shock of losing his spark and being depleted after casting the elder spell, because the alternative explanation is stupid. Bolas did not derive his power from his spark, nor did it increase his longevity. The post mending spark only grants the ability to planeswalk, unlike the oldwalker spark. That was the entire point of all of Bolas plans. We see all the other harvested walkers die, and Bolas become severely weakened, so it seems likely that being harvested is a shock to the system that kills most people, but Bolas being an elder dragon let's him live. He will eventually recover. It's possible, of course, that they've decided to retcons the nature of the spark for no reason, but that would be stupid.
And you need to go back and check out why Bolas was able to come back last time. Umezawa tricked him to have an out of body experience and follow him to the meditation realm so he could trap his spirit there by killing his body. Bolas' spirit didn't escape to the meditation realm, his spirit went there to kill Umezawa and this was what allowed Umezawa to kill his body. We have zero evidence that killing Bolas while his spirit is in his body would fail to kill his spirit. All it proves is that if Bolas' spirit is in the meditation realm, you can kill his body and trap him there.
Why is the alternative explination of Ugin seal/stealing his powers stupid? If you meant to stupid idea of it being tied to his spark I can see why you would think its stupid, but as that isn't what was implied at all by the fact that he was stil casting spells after his spark was gone but not after Ugin did whatever he did to him it makes no sense to assume the spark connection.
I can't find the exact source but it seems that Bolas' body was destoryed while he was in the meditation realm and he was defeated in the meditation realm. If this is the case then 100% killing him doesn't work. If not the I still have questions about what exactly happened but in story we saw a dragon survive the destruction of its body and then be reborn. This dragon wasn't even an elder dragon and Ugin strongly hints that as an elder dragon Bolas wouldn't need the same convoluted plots Niv used and could pull it off with completely different convoluted plots. Even flat out saying he could have come back as a Spirit Dragon like Ugin.
If you want to choose to believe something completely outside, or even contradictory to what we are told in lore you need a much better argument than "Doing the thing they said was a bad idea, for reasons, would have been a much better idea than what they actually did."
Umezawa told Bolas he was going to kill him, killed his second in command, said he was going to the meditation realm, and vanished. Bolas, perfectly healthy, separated his own spirit from his body to go to the meditation realm to pursue him. Umezawa had not yet left and took the opportunity to blow up Bolas citadel to kill his body, then went to the meditation realm to kill his spirit. He owns spirit Bolas and thinks he's killed him. He is able to do so because Bolas cannot planeswalk after his body has been killed and his Mana has been severed. Flash forward to Time Spiral and we find out that a trace amount of Bolas Spirit manage to survive because of the Madaran time rift. The growth of the rift enabled his spirit to take on a weak human form. He then used Vensers spark to gain more power, and pulled his sleeping body through the time rift before umezawa kills it in the past. His resurrection relied entirely on the time rift. First, it kept him from being totally destroyed. Second, it's growth enabled him to become more than a harmless shadow of a spirit. Third, it enabled him to retrieve his body from the past. Characters present in this story had knowledge of this (Karn, and especially Teferi).
So we know Ugin is full of *****, because if Bolas' had a way to restore himself he would have done so without having to rely on events outside of his control and every bit as convoluted as Nivs. He didn't even plan the first step, he got lucky that the rift saved enough of his spirit, and then got lucky again that enough plane wrecking disasters happened to cause the time rift crisis and grow the rifts thus causing his spirit to grow. And he'd have certainly done it much, much earlier. The evidence is clear, Ugin is wrong. That's why I said it's stupid. Characters present in this story should know this, Teferi especially as he ******* witnessed it. That's either one of two things, an intentional retcon created solely so that they could have a reason not to kill Bolas (a major retcon for the character btw, that changes fairly recent history), or the author/creative making a huge plot mistake. The former is cynical and the latter is stupid. Neither are good narrative reasons for this happening.
Had they killed Bolas after he desparked, he'd have been dead. Even had he managed to somehow, at the last minute, decouple his spirit from his body and send it to the meditation plane, we would at worst be in the same spot we are now, Bolas trapped on the meditation plane, except he'd just be a spirit instead of alive. If his spirit stayed on Ravnica, Kaya was on hand to finish the job.
They went out of their way to come up with a reason not to kill Bolas, and it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Maybe Ugin is just lying and is taking a risk solely because he doesn't want to kill his brother, but why anyone would go along with that is a mystery. There is no evidence that Bolas is permanently neutered and will not recover, so this plan relies on Ugin staying on the meditation realm and keeping Bolas weak. What happens when Ugin is inevitably required to leave to face a major threat? Bolas recovers. And Bolas on Alara was a planar threat before he powered up a bit off the maelstrom.
Thank you for the lore breakdown, I've always been unclear on what happened with Bolas there, even though I read the Time Spiral books.
Also, I think we can all agree it's high-time we had a centaur planeswalker.
From my number crunch 52 (53 if you count Urza which I don't personally) walkers have gotten a card, 14-20 (depending on how you split hairs) non-human walkers is ~26%-38% of total walkers which means roughly 1/3 of walkers who have gotten card is a non-human. IMO seems like a pretty decent number.
Your counting characters...how many actual cards do they have.
Also its about focus...having them is great how much focus do they actually get.
And that doesn't help those who want even more nonhuman walkers.
From my number crunch 52 (53 if you count Urza which I don't personally) walkers have gotten a card, 14-20 (depending on how you split hairs) non-human walkers is ~26%-38% of total walkers which means roughly 1/3 of walkers who have gotten card is a non-human. IMO seems like a pretty decent number.
Your counting characters...how many actual cards do they have.
Also its about focus...having them is great how much focus do they actually get.
This is a big sticking point for me. It's not just about seeing pictures of them. It's about having them actually involved in story.
I hate modern Magic story (for several reasons I won't get into). But when Ajani, who has long been one of my favourite characters, joined the main cast at the end of Kaladesh, I was actually excited. Finally, a nonhuman (as I've said before, no Nissa does not count) member of the main cast that I can get invested in!
...then in the very next set, he was completely kicked aside. And remained absent in the set after that. And the two set block after that. Before finally returning in Dominaria...for all of, what, one or two scenes? Would you want to watch a full twenty plus episode season of a TV show just for the chance of seeing one or two scenes of a character you liked?
That's the big thing for me. It's all well and good to have them there, now how about we actually let them be important? Actually give them chances to be heroes, rather than existing solely to support the human heroes for the umpty-thousandth time at best?
From my number crunch 52 (53 if you count Urza which I don't personally) walkers have gotten a card, 14-20 (depending on how you split hairs) non-human walkers is ~26%-38% of total walkers which means roughly 1/3 of walkers who have gotten card is a non-human. IMO seems like a pretty decent number.
Your counting characters...how many actual cards do they have.
Also its about focus...having them is great how much focus do they actually get.
This is a big sticking point for me. It's not just about seeing pictures of them. It's about having them actually involved in story.
I hate modern Magic story (for several reasons I won't get into). But when Ajani, who has long been one of my favourite characters, joined the main cast at the end of Kaladesh, I was actually excited. Finally, a nonhuman (as I've said before, no Nissa does not count) member of the main cast that I can get invested in!
...then in the very next set, he was completely kicked aside. And remained absent in the set after that. And the two set block after that. Before finally returning in Dominaria...for all of, what, one or two scenes? Would you want to watch a full twenty plus episode season of a TV show just for the chance of seeing one or two scenes of a character you liked?
That's the big thing for me. It's all well and good to have them there, now how about we actually let them be important? Actually give them chances to be heroes, rather than existing solely to support the human heroes for the umpty-thousandth time at best?
Nah i get the feel I am salty Teferi and Karn don't get to do much more then maybe provide some support while forgetting most of their skills and abilities.
From my number crunch 52 (53 if you count Urza which I don't personally) walkers have gotten a card, 14-20 (depending on how you split hairs) non-human walkers is ~26%-38% of total walkers which means roughly 1/3 of walkers who have gotten card is a non-human. IMO seems like a pretty decent number.
Your counting characters...how many actual cards do they have.
And Your moving goal posts but I'll bite.
So if my math is right, not counting walkers deck or unsets (so no Yanling, Urza and only counting Yanggu War card) there are 149 walker cards as of war of the spark and counting the non-humans thats 61 (and I'm lumping all the non-humans, wanna split hairs you can figure out the reweighed numbers). 61/149 walkers is about ~40%. Top non-human carded walker is Ajani at 8 cards, tied with Chandra and Liliana and beat by Jace by one and Nissa (next highest non-human) by one.
Also its about focus...having them is great how much focus do they actually get.
Alara, Zendikar, Theros, Tarkir, Zendikar 2, Innstrad 2, Kaladesh, Amonkhet, Ixalan and Ravnica 3 (not counting War) all had stories with at least one non-human leading walker character(s).
Mirrodin 2, Ravnica 2, Dominaria only had non-humans in minor or supporting roles
Innistrad is hard to say with no real story. Focused on Liliana and Garruk but also a lot of Sorin and the intro of Tamiyo and Tibalt
War- Mostly human leads but honesty they jammed everyone in and several non-humans got some great moments and character building.
Gatewatch- While the membership was in flux, Ajani and Nissa have kept the average roughly 1/3-1/5 depending on when you pick at the story.
Core Sets- Normally the Lorwyn five so Ajani is featured often. The ones that don't have Ajani has Sorin and Nissa. I the sets we got a 6th walkers there was always a second non-human, with the sixth walker twice being Bolas.
So yeah not a huge amount of focus as the leading characters but more storylines than not have a a non-human walker in a major or leading role.
And that doesn't help those who want even more nonhuman walkers.
I mean feel free to ask for more, I just think that ~30-40% of the walker cards is a decent size imo for non-humans, thought looking at it I feel like we could get few more to put it more solid in the ~35-40%. I have heard from sources outside of Maro that non-human looking characters are harder for an average person to relate too so I'm understanding of why they tend to go for more humans. For me I like seeing and exploring walkers in general so I'm happy to see any walker with interesting lore or magic human or not.
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Right two categories you got your races that basically humans with minor differences ala Vampires, Kor, Elves, etc ie they look human in terms of skin tone and have some minor differences and then you have races that are a step away from that like Cat People and Merfolk or a step further Dragons.
Now on the other issue yes Ajani shows up but come on did he lead any of these story arcs? Was he even the second most important hero in most of these stories? Also what is the primary story? Yeah Yeah Sorin and Nahiri had their beef going on during Innistrad but were they the A Plot or the B Plot? I get the feeling we have a very different opinion on who has a leading role.
Right two categories you got your races that basically humans with minor differences ala Vampires, Kor, Elves, etc ie they look human in terms of skin tone and have some minor differences and then you have races that are a step away from that like Cat People and Merfolk or a step further Dragons.
Pretty sure wizards just considered them non-human and you and other fan are the ones putting your own categories in. So again I welcome you to go through the math yourself.
And again this is moving the goal posts. We where talking about number of characters and not story focus. If thats the case it shouldn't matter what Kasmina, the Kenrith or Estrid are since they barley got any lore or story focus or the number of cards since walkers can appear in storyline without getting a card and instead of dismissing a character for being a human you would wait to see what role they played in the story.
Now on the other issue yes Ajani shows up but come on did he lead any of these story arcs?
He was the lead character in Alara and I guess core sets since everyone counts them for Jace being the lead in them, outside the two that clearly featured Bolas, the ones featuring Chandra and Garruk and magic origins.
Was he even the second most important hero in most of these stories?
Theros.
Also what is the primary story?
I mean hard to say. One reason the gatewatch was made was to answer that since the story jumped around from plot to plot. We mostly been following the characters who would join the members of the gatewatch on and off. Outside of the Orgins 5 and Aani, Elspeth, Bolas, Sarkahn and Sorin have been recurring leads or having a playing a important role in the story, with most of the storyline so far arguably having Bolas as the main antagonist driving the storyline.
Yeah Yeah Sorin and Nahiri had their beef going on during Innistrad but were they the A Plot or the B Plot? I get the feeling we have a very different opinion on who has a leading role.
I tend to go by how much a story would have to change if said character wasn't in it, who instigated most of the driving action and/or conflict of the narrative and which characters went through the most development from the start to the end.
Using SOI for example Jace might have been the POV character for Innistrad 2 but the protagonists and antagonist walkers are Nahiri, Sorin and Liliana. Jace was kind more of the player proxy to explore and figure out the madness of whats happening only really helping out with Nissa and Tamiyo at the end to help seal Emrakul. We saw Sorin and Nahiri development their fight, Nahiri cross from a heroic character to villain and was the character who drove most of the conflict, Sorin greatly change after being forced to unmake Avacyn and as well him now having nothing to lose after giving up hope that he could save his home and Liliana starting her first (very tiny) step to being more of an anti-hero by joining in to fight Emrakul since she had taken a liking to Innistrad and her lust/ toxic form of love for Jace made her decide to try and fight instead of fleeing.
And I said above, I agree as the main character non-humans have been lacking. But almost every storyline has featured a non-human in a major role. I would agree with wanting more stories featuring non-humans as the main characters but I think a lot of the walkers cast in general also needs some lore love.
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I was always under the impression that the reason Wizards led with human planeswalkers was that they were popular because people could find pieces of themselves so to speak in these characters. As an example with the new set Ral Zarek is revealed to be in a realtionship to Tomik, appealing to that demographic. Narset has Autism, Gideon shows classic signs of recovery from abuse and tragedy, Huatli is inspired by an area of Latin America. Things like that are why I thought they were more prominent?
I was always under the impression that the reason Wizards led with human planeswalkers was that they were popular because people could find pieces of themselves so to speak in these characters. As an example with the new set Ral Zarek is revealed to be in a realtionship to Tomik, appealing to that demographic. Narset has Autism, Gideon shows classic signs of recovery from abuse and tragedy, Huatli is inspired by an area of Latin America. Things like that are why I thought they were more prominent?
If this is true, they made the only two "Italian" planeswalker one an evil (albeit ingenious) goblin, and the other an inveterate thief who also got the shaft in WAR... Not good, Wizards, not good! You forgot pizza?!
I was always under the impression that the reason Wizards led with human planeswalkers was that they were popular because people could find pieces of themselves so to speak in these characters. As an example with the new set Ral Zarek is revealed to be in a realtionship to Tomik, appealing to that demographic. Narset has Autism, Gideon shows classic signs of recovery from abuse and tragedy, Huatli is inspired by an area of Latin America. Things like that are why I thought they were more prominent?
That is a significant reason. It's mostly the reason we are seeing a more diverse line up as time goes by. But it plays a large role in the broader reason. Humans like humans, so we get more humans. There is some love for non humans but it can't really compare to the way we like humans and a big part of that is relating to them. Its easier to relate to Chandra or Jace than it is to relate to Ajani.
I was always under the impression that the reason Wizards led with human planeswalkers was that they were popular because people could find pieces of themselves so to speak in these characters. As an example with the new set Ral Zarek is revealed to be in a realtionship to Tomik, appealing to that demographic. Narset has Autism, Gideon shows classic signs of recovery from abuse and tragedy, Huatli is inspired by an area of Latin America. Things like that are why I thought they were more prominent?
Nothing wrong that thouugh I should note that most of the time its White Characters getting all the screen time besides Tarkir. Chandra pre Teferi only human providing diversity to the Gatewatch and if you don't know Chandra suppose to be Indian well can you really tell? I mean did anyone think she was anything but White pre Kaladesh?
Series did a better job with diversity when Urza and Gerrard were steering the franchise quite honestly. Which made Magic stand out honestly cause most Fantasy back in the day was pretty white lol. All downhill since we entered the Gatewatch Era quite frankly.
I was always under the impression that the reason Wizards led with human planeswalkers was that they were popular because people could find pieces of themselves so to speak in these characters. As an example with the new set Ral Zarek is revealed to be in a realtionship to Tomik, appealing to that demographic. Narset has Autism, Gideon shows classic signs of recovery from abuse and tragedy, Huatli is inspired by an area of Latin America. Things like that are why I thought they were more prominent?
Nothing wrong that thouugh I should note that most of the time its White Characters getting all the screen time besides Tarkir. Chandra pre Teferi only human providing diversity to the Gatewatch and if you don't know Chandra suppose to be Indian well can you really tell? I mean did anyone think she was anything but White pre Kaladesh?
Series did a better job with diversity when Urza and Gerrard were steering the franchise quite honestly. Which made Magic stand out honestly cause most Fantasy back in the day was pretty white lol. All downhill since we entered the Gatewatch Era quite frankly.
That's a decent point, the Weatherlight crew (including those who went bad) consisted of (in part) a goblin (Squee), a minotaur (Tahngarth), a cat warrior (Mirri), two people of color (Sisay and Crovax), a maro-sorcerer (Multani) and an artifact golem (Karn). After Tempest and Masques blocks, going into Invasion block, the main crew consisted of three males (Gerrard, Tahngarth, Squee [1 human, 2 non-human]), three females (Sisay, Hanna, Orim [3 human]), and a maro-sorcerer and artifact golem (Multani and Karn).
The Weatherlight crew was arguably the most diverse main cast of characters Wizards had, or has had. And each of the crew had a purpose and a plot.
I was always under the impression that the reason Wizards led with human planeswalkers was that they were popular because people could find pieces of themselves so to speak in these characters. As an example with the new set Ral Zarek is revealed to be in a realtionship to Tomik, appealing to that demographic. Narset has Autism, Gideon shows classic signs of recovery from abuse and tragedy, Huatli is inspired by an area of Latin America. Things like that are why I thought they were more prominent?
Nothing wrong that thouugh I should note that most of the time its White Characters getting all the screen time besides Tarkir. Chandra pre Teferi only human providing diversity to the Gatewatch and if you don't know Chandra suppose to be Indian well can you really tell? I mean did anyone think she was anything but White pre Kaladesh?
Series did a better job with diversity when Urza and Gerrard were steering the franchise quite honestly. Which made Magic stand out honestly cause most Fantasy back in the day was pretty white lol. All downhill since we entered the Gatewatch Era quite frankly.
That's a decent point, the Weatherlight crew (including those who went bad) consisted of (in part) a goblin (Squee), a minotaur (Tahngarth), a cat warrior (Mirri), two people of color (Sisay and Crovax), a maro-sorcerer (Multani) and an artifact golem (Karn). After Tempest and Masques blocks, going into Invasion block, the main crew consisted of three males (Gerrard, Tahngarth, Squee [1 human, 2 non-human]), three females (Sisay, Hanna, Orim [3 human]), and a maro-sorcerer and artifact golem (Multani and Karn).
The Weatherlight crew was arguably the most diverse main cast of characters Wizards had, or has had. And each of the crew had a purpose and a plot.
But still. Let's get a centaur planeswalker.
Indeed I am more just laughing that WOTC talks a big game nowadays about diversity when with the exception of Tarkir. They did a much better job hitting Human and non Human Diversity in the past. Purpose and moments to shine indeed.
Has pizza been mentioned in any magic setting so far?
Don't think so... Heck, Magic is one of the fantasy franchises who doesn't expand much on the food of the vaiorus planes, they could probably write an entire cookbook about it!
I was always under the impression that the reason Wizards led with human planeswalkers was that they were popular because people could find pieces of themselves so to speak in these characters. As an example with the new set Ral Zarek is revealed to be in a realtionship to Tomik, appealing to that demographic. Narset has Autism, Gideon shows classic signs of recovery from abuse and tragedy, Huatli is inspired by an area of Latin America. Things like that are why I thought they were more prominent?
I'm not buying that. As a father who has to travel for work sometimes I can relate to Angrath. As someone who has lost friends and made mistakes I can relate to Karn. People who are judged for looking rough or their race and are tough but have a kind heart under that exterior can relate to Vraska. They had an female Gruul Ogre who had a female Ogre ex in the Gruul story. My favorite story was Izzet, which featured a human who ended up as a Simic experiment gone wrong(or right, depending on your perspective). The Ixalan Vampires are inspired by Spanish Conquistadors.
In fact, Sci/Fi and Fantasy have always done a good job of portraying human issues using nonhumans. Kirk slept with a green alien in Star Trek to show that interracial love can be a beautiful thing. The very first interracial kiss ever on TV was on Star Trek. In LOTR a Dwarf and Elf become good friends and reevaluate their racist stances. Gollum represents people with addiction issues. The X-men is all about how we shouldn't judge or be afraid of people who are different than us.
Ravnica has tomatoes, so its a possibility. Its also the plane most likely to have sewer dwelling mutant turtles, though it currently lacks ninjas.
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Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I was always under the impression that the reason Wizards led with human planeswalkers was that they were popular because people could find pieces of themselves so to speak in these characters. As an example with the new set Ral Zarek is revealed to be in a realtionship to Tomik, appealing to that demographic. Narset has Autism, Gideon shows classic signs of recovery from abuse and tragedy, Huatli is inspired by an area of Latin America. Things like that are why I thought they were more prominent?
I'm not buying that. As a father who has to travel for work sometimes I can relate to Angrath. As someone who has lost friends and made mistakes I can relate to Karn. People who are judged for looking rough or their race and are tough but have a kind heart under that exterior can relate to Vraska. They had an female Gruul Ogre who had a female Ogre ex in the Gruul story. My favorite story was Izzet, which featured a human who ended up as a Simic experiment gone wrong(or right, depending on your perspective). The Ixalan Vampires are inspired by Spanish Conquistadors.
In fact, Sci/Fi and Fantasy have always done a good job of portraying human issues using nonhumans. Kirk slept with a green alien in Star Trek to show that interracial love can be a beautiful thing. The very first interracial kiss ever on TV was on Star Trek. In LOTR a Dwarf and Elf become good friends and reevaluate their racist stances. Gollum represents people with addiction issues. The X-men is all about how we shouldn't judge or be afraid of people who are different than us.
Humans can relate to anything that shares a similarity with them. Angrath is a father who has been kept away from his family for reasons beyond his control. A large number of people can relate to that. However Jace is human, literally everyone can in someway relate to that. Every human character has the innate advantage of being human, a relate-able aspect, over the non humans. The non humans definitely have traits that people can relate to and because they are specific traits you will have a deeper resonance with them, but the humans also have such traits. This gives a significant edge to any humans because regardless of any other trait you can relate being human.
Also a major factor in wizards pushing of humans if people who don't know the finer details. The less you know the characters, the lower you tend to rate nonhuman characters vs human characters.
That's what people say. That's the reason Wizards often gives. But - and understanding that I can only speak from my own perspective and acknowledging that my experiences are not universal - I have never, ever experienced that. Not once. Ever. I have never found myself relating to a character just because they have the same basic physical shape as me. Back when the planeswalkers were first introduced in Lorwyn and had no character beyond what was depicted on the cards, I didn't find myself relating to Jace purely because we share a species. And in all honesty, despite how common that reason is, I don't even really understand it. How can anyone think that a character is relatable purely because of their physical shape? It makes absolutely no sense to me.
That's what people say. That's the reason Wizards often gives. But - and understanding that I can only speak from my own perspective and acknowledging that my experiences are not universal - I have never, ever experienced that. Not once. Ever. I have never found myself relating to a character just because they have the same basic physical shape as me. Back when the planeswalkers were first introduced in Lorwyn and had no character beyond what was depicted on the cards, I didn't find myself relating to Jace purely because we share a species. And in all honesty, despite how common that reason is, I don't even really understand it. How can anyone think that a character is relatable purely because of their physical shape? It makes absolutely no sense to me.
I've got to say I feel the same way as you. I have never related to or not related any person based on appearance at all. I don't understand how looks or labels influence peoples perception. But I do recognize that my thoughts and assumptions are exactly that "My personal thoughts and assumptions". So when someone says they asked around and "My personal thoughts and assumptions" are not the norm but in fact the opposite of the norm I can readily accept this as fact. I at first found it very strange the people would use opinions to deny 'facts', but as I grew older it was such a norm that I accepted it as well. I also leave myself open to the possibility that the people telling me these 'facts' are lying, but typically when they have nothing to gain by lying and everything to gain by telling the truth, its usually the truth. Though when its nothing on both sides lying wins far too often.
That's what people say. That's the reason Wizards often gives. But - and understanding that I can only speak from my own perspective and acknowledging that my experiences are not universal - I have never, ever experienced that. Not once. Ever. I have never found myself relating to a character just because they have the same basic physical shape as me. Back when the planeswalkers were first introduced in Lorwyn and had no character beyond what was depicted on the cards, I didn't find myself relating to Jace purely because we share a species. And in all honesty, despite how common that reason is, I don't even really understand it. How can anyone think that a character is relatable purely because of their physical shape? It makes absolutely no sense to me.
I've got to say I feel the same way as you. I have never related to or not related any person based on appearance at all. I don't understand how looks or labels influence peoples perception. But I do recognize that my thoughts and assumptions are exactly that "My personal thoughts and assumptions". So when someone says they asked around and "My personal thoughts and assumptions" are not the norm but in fact the opposite of the norm I can readily accept this as fact. I at first found it very strange the people would use opinions to deny 'facts', but as I grew older it was such a norm that I accepted it as well. I also leave myself open to the possibility that the people telling me these 'facts' are lying, but typically when they have nothing to gain by lying and everything to gain by telling the truth, its usually the truth. Though when its nothing on both sides lying wins far too often.
Oh, I know. Like I said in my post, I acknowledge that my experiences are not universal. Still doesn't mean it makes any more sense to me.
That's what people say. That's the reason Wizards often gives. But - and understanding that I can only speak from my own perspective and acknowledging that my experiences are not universal - I have never, ever experienced that. Not once. Ever. I have never found myself relating to a character just because they have the same basic physical shape as me. Back when the planeswalkers were first introduced in Lorwyn and had no character beyond what was depicted on the cards, I didn't find myself relating to Jace purely because we share a species. And in all honesty, despite how common that reason is, I don't even really understand it. How can anyone think that a character is relatable purely because of their physical shape? It makes absolutely no sense to me.
Repeat something often enough and it becomes the truth. It's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. If people believe human characters are more popular, they make more human characters, which means there will be more human popular characters (simple numbers game, if 90% of your characters are human, then the odds of having more popular human characters is higher). More human popular characters makes it look as if humans are inherently more popular so people make more human characters. Rinse and repeat. Hence positive feedback loop. It's the same reasoning given with human-like aliens in science-fiction. Back when special effects and such weren't as sophisticated and budgets low, aliens were just humans in suits often with minimal changes. Since 95% of all aliens were such humanoids in media, the bulk of those that ended up being popular were humanoid, resulting in the misconception that people are naturally more inclined to empathize with humans.*
*Which, again, they do, to a degree, but the factor of physical-based empathy is more based on a) displaying emotions, which you can totally do on non-humans, see dogs; or b) even sexuality, which is a whole other can of worms and not at all applicable to the bulk of all characters and thus largely irrelevant to the topic at hand.
I mean, given that the number of people who emphasize with humans is, in all likelihood, higher than the number of people who emphasize exclusively with non-humans, I find it kind of interesting that you'd try to argue it is inaccurate. But given that it's a point that WotC has made it makes sense from that angle.
And while I may not emphasize with humans over non-humans, I can certainly understand the sentiment. It's weird that people aren't able to emphasize with a point of view outside of their own, but given that's rather literally what is being discussed (being able to emphasize with other humans) it doesn't surprise me.
I mean, admittedly I might be an odd case, since I've never really got the idea behind characters being "relatable" in the first place. I already hang out with someone just like me all day every day, I dive into the world of fiction so that I can see a different person's point of view, and find out what makes this character tick. I value the ability to experience a different mindset, not have my own parroted back to me. I also like to imagine what things would be like if I were in the character's position, and I can't really do that when it's all laid out on the page already.
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Thank you for the lore breakdown, I've always been unclear on what happened with Bolas there, even though I read the Time Spiral books.
Also, I think we can all agree it's high-time we had a centaur planeswalker.
Your counting characters...how many actual cards do they have.
Also its about focus...having them is great how much focus do they actually get.
And that doesn't help those who want even more nonhuman walkers.
I hate modern Magic story (for several reasons I won't get into). But when Ajani, who has long been one of my favourite characters, joined the main cast at the end of Kaladesh, I was actually excited. Finally, a nonhuman (as I've said before, no Nissa does not count) member of the main cast that I can get invested in!
...then in the very next set, he was completely kicked aside. And remained absent in the set after that. And the two set block after that. Before finally returning in Dominaria...for all of, what, one or two scenes? Would you want to watch a full twenty plus episode season of a TV show just for the chance of seeing one or two scenes of a character you liked?
That's the big thing for me. It's all well and good to have them there, now how about we actually let them be important? Actually give them chances to be heroes, rather than existing solely to support the human heroes for the umpty-thousandth time at best?
Nah i get the feel I am salty Teferi and Karn don't get to do much more then maybe provide some support while forgetting most of their skills and abilities.
And Your moving goal posts but I'll bite.
So if my math is right, not counting walkers deck or unsets (so no Yanling, Urza and only counting Yanggu War card) there are 149 walker cards as of war of the spark and counting the non-humans thats 61 (and I'm lumping all the non-humans, wanna split hairs you can figure out the reweighed numbers). 61/149 walkers is about ~40%. Top non-human carded walker is Ajani at 8 cards, tied with Chandra and Liliana and beat by Jace by one and Nissa (next highest non-human) by one.
Alara, Zendikar, Theros, Tarkir, Zendikar 2, Innstrad 2, Kaladesh, Amonkhet, Ixalan and Ravnica 3 (not counting War) all had stories with at least one non-human leading walker character(s).
Mirrodin 2, Ravnica 2, Dominaria only had non-humans in minor or supporting roles
Innistrad is hard to say with no real story. Focused on Liliana and Garruk but also a lot of Sorin and the intro of Tamiyo and Tibalt
War- Mostly human leads but honesty they jammed everyone in and several non-humans got some great moments and character building.
Gatewatch- While the membership was in flux, Ajani and Nissa have kept the average roughly 1/3-1/5 depending on when you pick at the story.
Core Sets- Normally the Lorwyn five so Ajani is featured often. The ones that don't have Ajani has Sorin and Nissa. I the sets we got a 6th walkers there was always a second non-human, with the sixth walker twice being Bolas.
So yeah not a huge amount of focus as the leading characters but more storylines than not have a a non-human walker in a major or leading role.
I mean feel free to ask for more, I just think that ~30-40% of the walker cards is a decent size imo for non-humans, thought looking at it I feel like we could get few more to put it more solid in the ~35-40%. I have heard from sources outside of Maro that non-human looking characters are harder for an average person to relate too so I'm understanding of why they tend to go for more humans. For me I like seeing and exploring walkers in general so I'm happy to see any walker with interesting lore or magic human or not.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Now on the other issue yes Ajani shows up but come on did he lead any of these story arcs? Was he even the second most important hero in most of these stories? Also what is the primary story? Yeah Yeah Sorin and Nahiri had their beef going on during Innistrad but were they the A Plot or the B Plot? I get the feeling we have a very different opinion on who has a leading role.
Pretty sure wizards just considered them non-human and you and other fan are the ones putting your own categories in. So again I welcome you to go through the math yourself.
And again this is moving the goal posts. We where talking about number of characters and not story focus. If thats the case it shouldn't matter what Kasmina, the Kenrith or Estrid are since they barley got any lore or story focus or the number of cards since walkers can appear in storyline without getting a card and instead of dismissing a character for being a human you would wait to see what role they played in the story.
He was the lead character in Alara and I guess core sets since everyone counts them for Jace being the lead in them, outside the two that clearly featured Bolas, the ones featuring Chandra and Garruk and magic origins.
Theros.
I mean hard to say. One reason the gatewatch was made was to answer that since the story jumped around from plot to plot. We mostly been following the characters who would join the members of the gatewatch on and off. Outside of the Orgins 5 and Aani, Elspeth, Bolas, Sarkahn and Sorin have been recurring leads or having a playing a important role in the story, with most of the storyline so far arguably having Bolas as the main antagonist driving the storyline.
I tend to go by how much a story would have to change if said character wasn't in it, who instigated most of the driving action and/or conflict of the narrative and which characters went through the most development from the start to the end.
Using SOI for example Jace might have been the POV character for Innistrad 2 but the protagonists and antagonist walkers are Nahiri, Sorin and Liliana. Jace was kind more of the player proxy to explore and figure out the madness of whats happening only really helping out with Nissa and Tamiyo at the end to help seal Emrakul. We saw Sorin and Nahiri development their fight, Nahiri cross from a heroic character to villain and was the character who drove most of the conflict, Sorin greatly change after being forced to unmake Avacyn and as well him now having nothing to lose after giving up hope that he could save his home and Liliana starting her first (very tiny) step to being more of an anti-hero by joining in to fight Emrakul since she had taken a liking to Innistrad and her lust/ toxic form of love for Jace made her decide to try and fight instead of fleeing.
And I said above, I agree as the main character non-humans have been lacking. But almost every storyline has featured a non-human in a major role. I would agree with wanting more stories featuring non-humans as the main characters but I think a lot of the walkers cast in general also needs some lore love.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
If this is true, they made the only two "Italian" planeswalker one an evil (albeit ingenious) goblin, and the other an inveterate thief who also got the shaft in WAR... Not good, Wizards, not good! You forgot pizza?!
Has pizza been mentioned in any magic setting so far?
Honestly, with the bovines being so uncooperative, I'm not even sure if any planes have cheese.
Nothing wrong that thouugh I should note that most of the time its White Characters getting all the screen time besides Tarkir. Chandra pre Teferi only human providing diversity to the Gatewatch and if you don't know Chandra suppose to be Indian well can you really tell? I mean did anyone think she was anything but White pre Kaladesh?
Series did a better job with diversity when Urza and Gerrard were steering the franchise quite honestly. Which made Magic stand out honestly cause most Fantasy back in the day was pretty white lol. All downhill since we entered the Gatewatch Era quite frankly.
That's a decent point, the Weatherlight crew (including those who went bad) consisted of (in part) a goblin (Squee), a minotaur (Tahngarth), a cat warrior (Mirri), two people of color (Sisay and Crovax), a maro-sorcerer (Multani) and an artifact golem (Karn). After Tempest and Masques blocks, going into Invasion block, the main crew consisted of three males (Gerrard, Tahngarth, Squee [1 human, 2 non-human]), three females (Sisay, Hanna, Orim [3 human]), and a maro-sorcerer and artifact golem (Multani and Karn).
The Weatherlight crew was arguably the most diverse main cast of characters Wizards had, or has had. And each of the crew had a purpose and a plot.
But still. Let's get a centaur planeswalker.
Indeed I am more just laughing that WOTC talks a big game nowadays about diversity when with the exception of Tarkir. They did a much better job hitting Human and non Human Diversity in the past. Purpose and moments to shine indeed.
Don't think so... Heck, Magic is one of the fantasy franchises who doesn't expand much on the food of the vaiorus planes, they could probably write an entire cookbook about it!
Bring back Asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar!
I'm not buying that. As a father who has to travel for work sometimes I can relate to Angrath. As someone who has lost friends and made mistakes I can relate to Karn. People who are judged for looking rough or their race and are tough but have a kind heart under that exterior can relate to Vraska. They had an female Gruul Ogre who had a female Ogre ex in the Gruul story. My favorite story was Izzet, which featured a human who ended up as a Simic experiment gone wrong(or right, depending on your perspective). The Ixalan Vampires are inspired by Spanish Conquistadors.
In fact, Sci/Fi and Fantasy have always done a good job of portraying human issues using nonhumans. Kirk slept with a green alien in Star Trek to show that interracial love can be a beautiful thing. The very first interracial kiss ever on TV was on Star Trek. In LOTR a Dwarf and Elf become good friends and reevaluate their racist stances. Gollum represents people with addiction issues. The X-men is all about how we shouldn't judge or be afraid of people who are different than us.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Also a major factor in wizards pushing of humans if people who don't know the finer details. The less you know the characters, the lower you tend to rate nonhuman characters vs human characters.
Repeat something often enough and it becomes the truth. It's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. If people believe human characters are more popular, they make more human characters, which means there will be more human popular characters (simple numbers game, if 90% of your characters are human, then the odds of having more popular human characters is higher). More human popular characters makes it look as if humans are inherently more popular so people make more human characters. Rinse and repeat. Hence positive feedback loop. It's the same reasoning given with human-like aliens in science-fiction. Back when special effects and such weren't as sophisticated and budgets low, aliens were just humans in suits often with minimal changes. Since 95% of all aliens were such humanoids in media, the bulk of those that ended up being popular were humanoid, resulting in the misconception that people are naturally more inclined to empathize with humans.*
*Which, again, they do, to a degree, but the factor of physical-based empathy is more based on a) displaying emotions, which you can totally do on non-humans, see dogs; or b) even sexuality, which is a whole other can of worms and not at all applicable to the bulk of all characters and thus largely irrelevant to the topic at hand.
And while I may not emphasize with humans over non-humans, I can certainly understand the sentiment. It's weird that people aren't able to emphasize with a point of view outside of their own, but given that's rather literally what is being discussed (being able to emphasize with other humans) it doesn't surprise me.