Since when is Dovin considered evil or villainous? Ral, Vraska, and Domri aren't evil or villainous, they've just been tricked into serving Bolas (in some cases unknowingly) for various reasons. I don't see why you'd assume it would be any different for Dovin, especially considering he was portrayed in a fairly heroic light during the Kaladesh storyline, despite being an antagonist.
Ral is an abusive, temperamental, psychotic narcissist and Vraska tends to vacillate depending on who's writing her.
Dovin is not capital E evil but he's meant to come across as unsympathetic and snooty. His final act in the Kaladesh storyline is him blowing up a ship to spite Chandra.
Whether Dovin is sympathetic or not depends on audience. He certainly isn't meant to be unsympathetic in general. Yes, he is a bit snooty, but unlike Tezzeret not without justification ;-) And he blowed the ship not to spite Chandra, he only neutralized the thopter and deprived the ship of fuel. He even pointed out that they should land so no one would be harmed.
From the whole Kaladesh story I got impression that anything Dovin does, he does it without emotion and for the better of everyone. Any plane would be such a nice place if the people on it stop being morons and start following his advices...
I do not believe Dovin is working for Bolas directly and willingly, but rather convinced/tricked by Tezzeret (or maybe Bolas in human form).
Dovin is next up, he was mean to Chandra so he must be "EVIL".
Honestly i felt they did the same to Azor. He had to appear evil and unconsiderate just because... he likes rules and Jace need his spotlight?
Suddenly the guildpact is evil, even if it lasted 10k years and helped Ravnica become one of the most advanced plane, and suddenly also we learn that Azor screwed many planes, all of them off-screen and without giving details, just to paint him as the bad guy.
Meanwhile, Jace never stays on Ravnica and that apparently means that the guildpact doesn't work. Nice way to screw up a plane Jace.
Agreed 100%. Azor got character assassinated just so that Jace and Vraska could look good/sympathetic. I'm fully resigned to Dovin suffering the same fate.
Neutral Evil? Um... really? Jarad was totally a "good guy" in the original Ravnica block, and was a straight-up hero in Dissension. Though I can't remember... is his son Myc still around? And whatever happened to Fonn? Have they been mentioned at all since Dissension?
Please I always complain about Lili getting a free pass because she and Jace use to bone. Bolas didn't force her to sign a deal with Demons or slaughter her way across the multiverse as an Oldwalker and yet is Lili every going to pay for her crimes? Apparently not cause she is hot and use to date the male lead of the Neowalker Gatewatch Saga.
To be fair, hotness covers a multitude of sins. Just like in the real world.
Dovin is next up, he was mean to Chandra so he must be "EVIL".
Honestly i felt they did the same to Azor. He had to appear evil and unconsiderate just because... he likes rules and Jace need his spotlight?
Suddenly the guildpact is evil, even if it lasted 10k years and helped Ravnica become one of the most advanced plane, and suddenly also we learn that Azor screwed many planes, all of them off-screen and without giving details, just to paint him as the bad guy.
Meanwhile, Jace never stays on Ravnica and that apparently means that the guildpact doesn't work. Nice way to screw up a plane Jace.
Agreed 100%. Azor got character assassinated just so that Jace and Vraska could look good/sympathetic. I'm fully resigned to Dovin suffering the same fate.
Now to be fair, the guildpact was always portrayed as being flawed. That was the whole point of the first Ravnica block. I also wouldn't say that Azor was a bad guy, he is just more interested in setting up rule systems than seeing the system through or changing it if necessary. Or to say it differently: He is arrogant, believing his own systems to be perfect (a trait that UW characters often have). He is not malicious nor even particularly negligent, he just thinks that once he has established his perfect societies, there won't be any need to check up on them again. The reason this worked on Ravnica for so long was because of the strong law magic that was fundamental to the plane itself, making the guildpact magically binding (but ripe for breaking down once Szadek had found the weakness in the pacts internal logic). Without such a strong magical basis Azors societies (like any society in real life that just wants to keep up the status quo forever) is bound to degrade in some form or the other. To make this short, Azor isn't evil, in fact he really wants the best for everyone. The problem is that his idea of "the best" is an unchanging, "perfect" society and he is unable to see past his own hubris in that regard.
His backup plan of putting all responsibility of the guildpact on a single person is just another example of it. Remember that the alternative to Jace becoming the guildpact in that situation was Supreme Verdict, or direct war between the guilds. But even if it hadn't been Jace but another Ravnican this plan would have put insane amounts of pressure on a single person, the responsibility for an entire plane. As I've argued before, Jace being a planeswalker just made the problems with this approach more apparent, it wasn't the main cause of them.
Dovin believes that the law should be above everything else, so even if a law is unjust it has to be followed and at best should be changed via long bureaucratic processes. That also doesn't mean that he is evil per se, but it is easy to mislead and manipulate such a character, and I guess this is how Bolas will get to him. Again, this doesn't make him bad, in fact he was the one who arrested Baral when that guy stepped out of the line, so he does have (at the very least) a righteous streak about him.
Jarad is a bit tricky since we didn't see much of him or how becoming a lich changed him (it was implied at the end of Dissension that it changed his personality to a degree). I agree though that neutral evil doesn't really fit either way though.
I don't really see at which point Liliana got a free pass "because she boned Jace". At this point no one trusts her anymore (certainly not Jace nor Nissa) with (ironically enough) Gideon accepting her the most, and only because he thinks that they need her against Bolas. Jaces relationship to her was always portrayed as toxic. She is constantly controlled or manipulated by other entities, no matter how much she hates it or tries to break free, she has barely any relationship left to anyone and everything she does to finally get some control of her life turns against her, including her own manipulation of others. She might not have been put on trial for her actions yet, but that doesn't mean that she isn't paying a (well-deserved) price for them.
Urgh, it's not a retcon, as I said before, the original book series already discussed the merits of the guildpact and it was already criticized back then. It WAS a good idea... once, at a time when everyone was constantly at each others throats and the whole plane was a giant war zone. But its magical nature enforced inequalities (like the Gruul losing nearly any standing in the urbanizing society of Ravnica, but being powerless to change that society in any way since their specific part of the pact lost all meaning over the years and therefore denied them most of its power) and stabilized Ravnica by putting a very static and exploitable system in place that had a build-in self-destruct button (the Dimir). The failsafe wasn't Azor finally thinking about further consequences, it had to be part of the system since he knew (and in fact planned) that the Dimir would one day destroy the original pact. Sure, every system is flawed, which is why democratic nations for example change many of their laws every few years or so, instead of keeping up the status quo even though the world changes around them. That was Azors mistake and he did it over and over again. The sentence might have been harsh, but from what I remember Azor also stated that any failure of one of his systems was the fault of the people he gave it to, declining to take responsibility or at least do something about it, worse, refusing to learn from his mistake. You are free to argue that this didn't give Jace or Vraska the right to punish him this way. I'm just saying though that no retcon is involved here. It also really looks like you'll get your wish, Jaces absence seems to have taken quite the toll on Lavinia at the very least. I'd be surprised if he didn't get a beating by someone because of his irresponsibility.
And on a "and a beloved plane". I'd guess Theros or something out of left field like Lorwyn or Alara.
I really like Nicky Draydens writing for the stories, I hope she returns for sometime more tied to the main story.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Welp, someone who's not looking for a promotion. Mind blown.
Its an interesting premise all around, though I think Bazda turns to accept the elf a bit too fast, and the machine seems to pop up up without being mentioned coming "on-screen".
Dovin is next up, he was mean to Chandra so he must be "EVIL".
Honestly i felt they did the same to Azor. He had to appear evil and unconsiderate just because... he likes rules and Jace need his spotlight?
Suddenly the guildpact is evil, even if it lasted 10k years and helped Ravnica become one of the most advanced plane, and suddenly also we learn that Azor screwed many planes, all of them off-screen and without giving details, just to paint him as the bad guy.
Meanwhile, Jace never stays on Ravnica and that apparently means that the guildpact doesn't work. Nice way to screw up a plane Jace.
Agreed 100%. Azor got character assassinated just so that Jace and Vraska could look good/sympathetic. I'm fully resigned to Dovin suffering the same fate.
Bullcrap, Azor had no character prior to him showing up in Ixalan and what we saw of the Azorious guild in the first set is that they definitely had some "Law for the sake of Law" tenancies, what with working with Dimir Parun to cause the Guildpact to fail. Azor is in the same moral area as basically every Old Walker. He thinks he knows best and comes in like an Elephant stomps an Anthill and doesn't think he is damaging the ants or their home.
Look at the damage he did to Ixalan, he set up 3 different empires to protect the Immortal Sun..ripped it away from 2 of them and just made the third a bunch of gatekeepers who had no idea what they were actually guarding or why, and note the original plan would have meant at best a Planeswalker Duel involving Nicol Bolas vs Ugin and Azor. That would have gone well for Ixalan I bet. Azor is the exact "thing" the Gatewatch was created for, Planeswalkers who wander around wrecking the Planes they go to.
To repeat an earlier point: What was Vraska supposed to do? All she can do is allow them to be heard and integrate them into Golgari society by providing jobs and such, which we totally see in the story with Vraska holding a speech with Kraul invited and the Kraul guards at the entrance. Should she kick out all elves? Murder them? Tear the guild to the ground and make a new one? I really don't see what people were expecting.
Edit: What I find really offputting is how selectively characters are judged on this forum. Almost everything the neowalkers do is bad bad bad and hypocritical, while oldwalkers get away with everything and it was just "for the greater good n all". Or there's a throw-away line like "oh yeah we know Urza was bad, but let's go on to the next topic". Meanwhile neowalkers never hear the end of it. I thought we hit rock bottom when people started to defend Nicol Bolas, only because we heard a story from his (very likely dishonest) point of view, but here we have people accusing Vraska of being a hypocrite for not doing something fast enough that barely any of the oldwalkers would have done ever.
Vraska isn't a hypocrite, she's just naive. The Golgari as a guild are hypocrites, because they like to claim to be the guild for the downtrodden and outcasts but they maintain a caste system with lots of tension between the races. Vraska is actually trying to align the reality of the guild with their PR, but it's a futile effort because it goes against what BG stands for. BG is predatory as hell, and all about social Darwinism. It's not about standing up for the downtrodden and comforting the afflicted, its about eating them. Out of any of the guilds, her outlook is closest to Selesnya, but what she's really aligned with is the Gateless.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Okay, so the last story was all right, even if it did spend too much time on the Orzhov-related stuff. (And, of course them being evil because that's pretty much what they do...jeez, I can't wait for Kaya to start killing some ghosts. I wish she'd just kill the entire bleeping guild sans Teysa, and even she seems questionable if her flavor text is any indication.) I would have liked to see more...I know know, Selesnya-ish things. Still, though, the Selesnya story as well as the Boros one were decent overall. The other three, though...yeesh. I'm kind of scared to read the ones for the remaining sets, and I'm not sure I will.
Man that story sucked.
Add a year to your debt, a year to make it sound impactful. Muwahahaha
Weve got the machine working, ill pay off 20000000000 of our debt, the machine printed it in an instant!
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MtG is where you can hate white players or black players, and still not be racist.
Man that story sucked.
Add a year to your debt, a year to make it sound impactful. Muwahahaha
Weve got the machine working, ill pay off 20000000000 of our debt, the machine printed it in an instant!
It's a machine that literally turns dollars into hundreds, with a pile of dollars sitting right next to it waiting to be turned into hundreds. It was like Chekhov shoved his gun down your throat and asked you to guess if it was loaded.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I thought it was a good story. Very "millennial" in its depiction of this Selesnya friend group pulling together to overcome their problems. The depiction of Orzhov contract magic seemed a little weak and mustache-twirly, but maybe we'll get a better depiction once the second block rolls out and we get a true Orzhov-focused story. Gotta watch out for those copper-to-gold machines, though; that's a great way to destabilize the whole plane's monetary system...
Shades of Grey in a Gatewatch magic story? Yeah I doubt it personally I just hope my favorite characters get some good showings (hard to be worse then Dominaria Peformance) and Bolas does not go down like a Chump. We don't need another Eldrazi Titan Debacle.
In fairness, if any guild is evil it’s the Orzhov.
I guess but at least the First Ravnica Trip didn't just go with the obvious candidate. Simic were up to no good, nowadays I seriously doubt the UG character will get anywhere close to that Bad. It will be the Orzhov or the Rakdos anyone with Black despite MARO saying Black =/= Evil...bit late to put that Genie back in the bottle if you ask me.
In fairness, if any guild is evil it’s the Orzhov.
The Rakdos would like a word...
Every black aligned guild was concepted as evil. Orzhov was concepted as Lawful Evil, but their original iteration was much subtler. It looks like literally everyone sees through their front now and their territory is openly dystopian, but that's a change from the original block. In the books, they were portrayed more like the romanticized conception of the mob, bad guys who you could deal with and who followed rules. They were portrayed as providing a number of essential services that everyday Ravnican's utilized, from defense attorneys to banks to business organization. Their dark side wasn't as in the open, and wouldn't always bite you. You didn't become a debt slave just from associating with the Orzhov. They had their banks, then they had their loan sharks. They served as the primary religion in Ravnica, with the Selesnyans and Rakdos only serving their own guilds, and the dark side was that the religion was a complete sham that took in tons of donations and spent it on themselves. It wasn't a religion that just made all its followers debt slaves, its corruption was more like that of the medieval Catholic church or modern televangelists. They sold indulgences that did nothing and asked for tithes, and they got the followers to buy into it, but it wasn't debt, it was free giving based on a con, simple charlatanism. Yes, the Orzhov always had debt slaves, always found some desperate fools to take out a predatory loan or rely on "charity" that they'd owe for, but they also had more legitimate services that provided cover, as many ordinary Ravnicans could interact with them and walk away thinking they were all right. The current way they are portrayed, as purely mustache twirling caricatures that use every interaction to enslave people to eternal debt is stupid.
The Rakdos were concepted as chaotic evil, and they live up to it. They've also suffered, however, from a change in characterization from the first block that's really freaking dumb. They always had the Insane Clown Posse infernal circus thing, but it was a side aspect originally. The main service they provided were as miners toiling in terrible conditions mining ore and other valuables and smelters. The rest of Ravnica could stick them down there and mostly not have to deal with them, which is why they were tolerated, and the Rakdos were free to murder and torture each other without interference (and didn't care about the terrible working conditions). On the side they'd provide some dark circuses, but those were usually hidden like the Kumite from Blood Sport and not the accepted form of entertainment for the average Ravnican, present on theatre row.
The Dimir are neutral evil, they don't care about order or chaos, they just care about being in control and use both to achieve that. They certainly are, and the neo Dimir are actually pretty interesting, as they've found a way to exist withing the system rather than focusing on tearing it down, and play a role in the system (Private detectives, tutors, private spies and assassins, etc.). Its a little dumb that the latest block is trying to have it both ways, portraying it as if most of Ravnica still doesn't believe in them while also have them operating brazenly. The OG Dimir were really deep in the shadows, a small guild of isolated cells working patiently on the fringes in pursuit of one goal and most of Ravnica thinking there were only 9 guilds, and the RTR Dimir were portrayed as being much more in the open, with their sigil added back into representations of all the guilds, everyone aware of the role they played in the original block, and them offering their services openly, and running in the damn Dragon's Maze! Saying that they are still up to all that but most people view them the same way they viewed the OG Dimir (as a myth) is really dumb.
The Golgari were concepted as neutral evil, predatory outcasts with an internal caste system, a guild based on Darwinian struggle. They are focused on personal advancement within the guild at the expense of other members, and the advancement of the guild at the expense of the outside world. Its a straightforward form of evil, ambition mated to ruthlessness, and the sort that's clearly evil yet understandable and not particularly malicious. You understand that the Golgari are trying to get ahead by any means, and they might make you a zombie, but you know they aren't going to wipe your memories because you may have overheard a secret code or mutilate you for *****s and giggles, and most of their evil ***** is inflicted on each other.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Weren't the Rakdos included in the guildpact to placate Rakdos (the demon), which would tie into the entertainment aspect?
It's true though that some of the guilds have been flanderized. Maybe that's what's missing with each Ravnica return. The world feels smaller and flatter.
Eh well WOTC seems to really drink the haterade when it comes to UW of late considering how Azor got dealt with and how Dovin is going to be used so nothing new there.
In fairness, if any guild is evil it’s the Orzhov.
The Rakdos would like a word...
Every black aligned guild was concepted as evil. Orzhov was concepted as Lawful Evil, but their original iteration was much subtler. It looks like literally everyone sees through their front now and their territory is openly dystopian, but that's a change from the original block. In the books, they were portrayed more like the romanticized conception of the mob, bad guys who you could deal with and who followed rules. They were portrayed as providing a number of essential services that everyday Ravnican's utilized, from defense attorneys to banks to business organization. Their dark side wasn't as in the open, and wouldn't always bite you. You didn't become a debt slave just from associating with the Orzhov. They had their banks, then they had their loan sharks. They served as the primary religion in Ravnica, with the Selesnyans and Rakdos only serving their own guilds, and the dark side was that the religion was a complete sham that took in tons of donations and spent it on themselves. It wasn't a religion that just made all its followers debt slaves, its corruption was more like that of the medieval Catholic church or modern televangelists. They sold indulgences that did nothing and asked for tithes, and they got the followers to buy into it, but it wasn't debt, it was free giving based on a con, simple charlatanism. Yes, the Orzhov always had debt slaves, always found some desperate fools to take out a predatory loan or rely on "charity" that they'd owe for, but they also had more legitimate services that provided cover, as many ordinary Ravnicans could interact with them and walk away thinking they were all right. The current way they are portrayed, as purely mustache twirling caricatures that use every interaction to enslave people to eternal debt is stupid.
The Rakdos were concepted as chaotic evil, and they live up to it. They've also suffered, however, from a change in characterization from the first block that's really freaking dumb. They always had the Insane Clown Posse infernal circus thing, but it was a side aspect originally. The main service they provided were as miners toiling in terrible conditions mining ore and other valuables and smelters. The rest of Ravnica could stick them down there and mostly not have to deal with them, which is why they were tolerated, and the Rakdos were free to murder and torture each other without interference (and didn't care about the terrible working conditions). On the side they'd provide some dark circuses, but those were usually hidden like the Kumite from Blood Sport and not the accepted form of entertainment for the average Ravnican, present on theatre row.
The Dimir are neutral evil, they don't care about order or chaos, they just care about being in control and use both to achieve that. They certainly are, and the neo Dimir are actually pretty interesting, as they've found a way to exist withing the system rather than focusing on tearing it down, and play a role in the system (Private detectives, tutors, private spies and assassins, etc.). Its a little dumb that the latest block is trying to have it both ways, portraying it as if most of Ravnica still doesn't believe in them while also have them operating brazenly. The OG Dimir were really deep in the shadows, a small guild of isolated cells working patiently on the fringes in pursuit of one goal and most of Ravnica thinking there were only 9 guilds, and the RTR Dimir were portrayed as being much more in the open, with their sigil added back into representations of all the guilds, everyone aware of the role they played in the original block, and them offering their services openly, and running in the damn Dragon's Maze! Saying that they are still up to all that but most people view them the same way they viewed the OG Dimir (as a myth) is really dumb.
The Golgari were concepted as neutral evil, predatory outcasts with an internal caste system, a guild based on Darwinian struggle. They are focused on personal advancement within the guild at the expense of other members, and the advancement of the guild at the expense of the outside world. Its a straightforward form of evil, ambition mated to ruthlessness, and the sort that's clearly evil yet understandable and not particularly malicious. You understand that the Golgari are trying to get ahead by any means, and they might make you a zombie, but you know they aren't going to wipe your memories because you may have overheard a secret code or mutilate you for *****s and giggles, and most of their evil ***** is inflicted on each other.
Hm, I don't know. The guilds have changed, true, but I find it highly debatable whether this change was a flanderization. Remember that the original guilds were still bound by a magical guildpact and when that one vanished they were free to break from their traditional roles/ free to exploit their territories to a much higher degree. I mean, take the Orzhov for example: Aside from Teysa and the bold that befriended Agrus Kos, all of them were portrayed as horrible, greedy and exploitative. In the original books there was much less focus on their religious side (which was a scam anyway) but on their greed and lust for more money and power. So I don't really see that much of a change to now. The one in this story was a bit over the top perhaps, but still, it makes sense that the Orzhov would be one of the guilds that would use the lack of a binding guildpact to their advantage as much as possible (we also never saw the debtor side of the Orzhov in the original books, so it's kind of hard to tell whether they weren't always like that). I mean, they even have a room in which guildpact magic is not binding, so there's that. The only thing that I would kind of wish for is that their roles as defendants would get more of a spotlight, but that was more or less a side note in the original too.
The Rakdos had a much less interesting characterization in the original, being more or less a buch of sado-masochists who love to kill and maim for their own pleasure. The whole "slave and mining" business only really appeared in the books (once) and wasn't fleshed out itself until RtR. You couldn't tell from the cards that they had ANY really worthwhile task that benefited the rest of Ravnica, even the entertainment aspect was mostly sidelined, so putting it in the forefront and establishing that the guild actually does provide some sort of benefit for Ravnicans society was a step in the right direction.
The Dimir aren't seen as a myth anymore, from what I can tell they are seen more like an open secret. Everyone kind of knows that they exist, but no one who doesn't work with or against them wants to acknowledge it (and even they keep it very hush hush) probably out of fear of what that guild could do to them (losing your memory seems to be the best option here). Additionally no one really knows that much about them. There's probably Dimir propaganda involved to make the guild look even more threatening than it already is.
The Golgari actually didn't really change much between the three blocks they were in.
I would argue that every guild is somewhat evil, some more than others and some in certain aspects more than in others. The old Simic, Azorius and even parts of the Selesnya (remember the Silentmen?) were kind of horrible, same goes to a lesser degree for the Boros, Gruul and Izzet. All of these got better when RtR came around (aside from the Boros, who got worse and then better in Guilds of Ravnica), though all kept a certain shade of grey at least.
I think point is characters in general were more dynamic back then and by back then I mean pre Gatewatch. Not to say Black wasn't bating above 20% of the Villains even back then. Ah well hopefully post Bolas will get more versatile bunch of foes but I put good money on a League of Villains.
Ehh, all of the Guilds are portrayed as generally bad going back to the first Ravnica.
Azorious were Lawful Evil as well, they were the ones behind the plot to set fire to the Guildpact so they could replace it.
The Boros had a history of police brutality
The Selesenya were insular and ignored problems if it didn't affect them
Simic used their BioGrafts to make a gigantic slime monster.
Half of those were the actions of individual people and not the guilds as a whole.
Anyway, the point wasn't that the guilds were nicer back then, but that they were less one-dimensional.
3 of those individuals were the guild leaders, and half of the "evil" actions from the black guilds were also the guild leaders or people working on the guild leaders orders as well, Ravnica 1 did the Shades of grey pretty well..everything in MTG writing was less one-dimensional back then because they had actual time with the Novels to write characters as things other than cardboard cutouts.
Whether Dovin is sympathetic or not depends on audience. He certainly isn't meant to be unsympathetic in general. Yes, he is a bit snooty, but unlike Tezzeret not without justification ;-) And he blowed the ship not to spite Chandra, he only neutralized the thopter and deprived the ship of fuel. He even pointed out that they should land so no one would be harmed.
From the whole Kaladesh story I got impression that anything Dovin does, he does it without emotion and for the better of everyone. Any plane would be such a nice place if the people on it stop being morons and start following his advices...
I do not believe Dovin is working for Bolas directly and willingly, but rather convinced/tricked by Tezzeret (or maybe Bolas in human form).
Agreed 100%. Azor got character assassinated just so that Jace and Vraska could look good/sympathetic. I'm fully resigned to Dovin suffering the same fate.
To be fair, hotness covers a multitude of sins. Just like in the real world.
Now to be fair, the guildpact was always portrayed as being flawed. That was the whole point of the first Ravnica block. I also wouldn't say that Azor was a bad guy, he is just more interested in setting up rule systems than seeing the system through or changing it if necessary. Or to say it differently: He is arrogant, believing his own systems to be perfect (a trait that UW characters often have). He is not malicious nor even particularly negligent, he just thinks that once he has established his perfect societies, there won't be any need to check up on them again. The reason this worked on Ravnica for so long was because of the strong law magic that was fundamental to the plane itself, making the guildpact magically binding (but ripe for breaking down once Szadek had found the weakness in the pacts internal logic). Without such a strong magical basis Azors societies (like any society in real life that just wants to keep up the status quo forever) is bound to degrade in some form or the other. To make this short, Azor isn't evil, in fact he really wants the best for everyone. The problem is that his idea of "the best" is an unchanging, "perfect" society and he is unable to see past his own hubris in that regard.
His backup plan of putting all responsibility of the guildpact on a single person is just another example of it. Remember that the alternative to Jace becoming the guildpact in that situation was Supreme Verdict, or direct war between the guilds. But even if it hadn't been Jace but another Ravnican this plan would have put insane amounts of pressure on a single person, the responsibility for an entire plane. As I've argued before, Jace being a planeswalker just made the problems with this approach more apparent, it wasn't the main cause of them.
Dovin believes that the law should be above everything else, so even if a law is unjust it has to be followed and at best should be changed via long bureaucratic processes. That also doesn't mean that he is evil per se, but it is easy to mislead and manipulate such a character, and I guess this is how Bolas will get to him. Again, this doesn't make him bad, in fact he was the one who arrested Baral when that guy stepped out of the line, so he does have (at the very least) a righteous streak about him.
Jarad is a bit tricky since we didn't see much of him or how becoming a lich changed him (it was implied at the end of Dissension that it changed his personality to a degree). I agree though that neutral evil doesn't really fit either way though.
I don't really see at which point Liliana got a free pass "because she boned Jace". At this point no one trusts her anymore (certainly not Jace nor Nissa) with (ironically enough) Gideon accepting her the most, and only because he thinks that they need her against Bolas. Jaces relationship to her was always portrayed as toxic. She is constantly controlled or manipulated by other entities, no matter how much she hates it or tries to break free, she has barely any relationship left to anyone and everything she does to finally get some control of her life turns against her, including her own manipulation of others. She might not have been put on trial for her actions yet, but that doesn't mean that she isn't paying a (well-deserved) price for them.
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And on a "and a beloved plane". I'd guess Theros or something out of left field like Lorwyn or Alara.
I really like Nicky Draydens writing for the stories, I hope she returns for sometime more tied to the main story.
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Its an interesting premise all around, though I think Bazda turns to accept the elf a bit too fast, and the machine seems to pop up up without being mentioned coming "on-screen".
Bullcrap, Azor had no character prior to him showing up in Ixalan and what we saw of the Azorious guild in the first set is that they definitely had some "Law for the sake of Law" tenancies, what with working with Dimir Parun to cause the Guildpact to fail. Azor is in the same moral area as basically every Old Walker. He thinks he knows best and comes in like an Elephant stomps an Anthill and doesn't think he is damaging the ants or their home.
Look at the damage he did to Ixalan, he set up 3 different empires to protect the Immortal Sun..ripped it away from 2 of them and just made the third a bunch of gatekeepers who had no idea what they were actually guarding or why, and note the original plan would have meant at best a Planeswalker Duel involving Nicol Bolas vs Ugin and Azor. That would have gone well for Ixalan I bet. Azor is the exact "thing" the Gatewatch was created for, Planeswalkers who wander around wrecking the Planes they go to.
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Vraska isn't a hypocrite, she's just naive. The Golgari as a guild are hypocrites, because they like to claim to be the guild for the downtrodden and outcasts but they maintain a caste system with lots of tension between the races. Vraska is actually trying to align the reality of the guild with their PR, but it's a futile effort because it goes against what BG stands for. BG is predatory as hell, and all about social Darwinism. It's not about standing up for the downtrodden and comforting the afflicted, its about eating them. Out of any of the guilds, her outlook is closest to Selesnya, but what she's really aligned with is the Gateless.
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Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Add a year to your debt, a year to make it sound impactful. Muwahahaha
Weve got the machine working, ill pay off 20000000000 of our debt, the machine printed it in an instant!
It's a machine that literally turns dollars into hundreds, with a pile of dollars sitting right next to it waiting to be turned into hundreds. It was like Chekhov shoved his gun down your throat and asked you to guess if it was loaded.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
In fairness, if any guild is evil it’s the Orzhov.
I guess but at least the First Ravnica Trip didn't just go with the obvious candidate. Simic were up to no good, nowadays I seriously doubt the UG character will get anywhere close to that Bad. It will be the Orzhov or the Rakdos anyone with Black despite MARO saying Black =/= Evil...bit late to put that Genie back in the bottle if you ask me.
The Rakdos would like a word...
Every black aligned guild was concepted as evil. Orzhov was concepted as Lawful Evil, but their original iteration was much subtler. It looks like literally everyone sees through their front now and their territory is openly dystopian, but that's a change from the original block. In the books, they were portrayed more like the romanticized conception of the mob, bad guys who you could deal with and who followed rules. They were portrayed as providing a number of essential services that everyday Ravnican's utilized, from defense attorneys to banks to business organization. Their dark side wasn't as in the open, and wouldn't always bite you. You didn't become a debt slave just from associating with the Orzhov. They had their banks, then they had their loan sharks. They served as the primary religion in Ravnica, with the Selesnyans and Rakdos only serving their own guilds, and the dark side was that the religion was a complete sham that took in tons of donations and spent it on themselves. It wasn't a religion that just made all its followers debt slaves, its corruption was more like that of the medieval Catholic church or modern televangelists. They sold indulgences that did nothing and asked for tithes, and they got the followers to buy into it, but it wasn't debt, it was free giving based on a con, simple charlatanism. Yes, the Orzhov always had debt slaves, always found some desperate fools to take out a predatory loan or rely on "charity" that they'd owe for, but they also had more legitimate services that provided cover, as many ordinary Ravnicans could interact with them and walk away thinking they were all right. The current way they are portrayed, as purely mustache twirling caricatures that use every interaction to enslave people to eternal debt is stupid.
The Rakdos were concepted as chaotic evil, and they live up to it. They've also suffered, however, from a change in characterization from the first block that's really freaking dumb. They always had the Insane Clown Posse infernal circus thing, but it was a side aspect originally. The main service they provided were as miners toiling in terrible conditions mining ore and other valuables and smelters. The rest of Ravnica could stick them down there and mostly not have to deal with them, which is why they were tolerated, and the Rakdos were free to murder and torture each other without interference (and didn't care about the terrible working conditions). On the side they'd provide some dark circuses, but those were usually hidden like the Kumite from Blood Sport and not the accepted form of entertainment for the average Ravnican, present on theatre row.
The Dimir are neutral evil, they don't care about order or chaos, they just care about being in control and use both to achieve that. They certainly are, and the neo Dimir are actually pretty interesting, as they've found a way to exist withing the system rather than focusing on tearing it down, and play a role in the system (Private detectives, tutors, private spies and assassins, etc.). Its a little dumb that the latest block is trying to have it both ways, portraying it as if most of Ravnica still doesn't believe in them while also have them operating brazenly. The OG Dimir were really deep in the shadows, a small guild of isolated cells working patiently on the fringes in pursuit of one goal and most of Ravnica thinking there were only 9 guilds, and the RTR Dimir were portrayed as being much more in the open, with their sigil added back into representations of all the guilds, everyone aware of the role they played in the original block, and them offering their services openly, and running in the damn Dragon's Maze! Saying that they are still up to all that but most people view them the same way they viewed the OG Dimir (as a myth) is really dumb.
The Golgari were concepted as neutral evil, predatory outcasts with an internal caste system, a guild based on Darwinian struggle. They are focused on personal advancement within the guild at the expense of other members, and the advancement of the guild at the expense of the outside world. Its a straightforward form of evil, ambition mated to ruthlessness, and the sort that's clearly evil yet understandable and not particularly malicious. You understand that the Golgari are trying to get ahead by any means, and they might make you a zombie, but you know they aren't going to wipe your memories because you may have overheard a secret code or mutilate you for *****s and giggles, and most of their evil ***** is inflicted on each other.
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Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
It's true though that some of the guilds have been flanderized. Maybe that's what's missing with each Ravnica return. The world feels smaller and flatter.
Azorious were Lawful Evil as well, they were the ones behind the plot to set fire to the Guildpact so they could replace it.
The Boros had a history of police brutality
The Selesenya were insular and ignored problems if it didn't affect them
Simic used their BioGrafts to make a gigantic slime monster.
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Hm, I don't know. The guilds have changed, true, but I find it highly debatable whether this change was a flanderization. Remember that the original guilds were still bound by a magical guildpact and when that one vanished they were free to break from their traditional roles/ free to exploit their territories to a much higher degree. I mean, take the Orzhov for example: Aside from Teysa and the bold that befriended Agrus Kos, all of them were portrayed as horrible, greedy and exploitative. In the original books there was much less focus on their religious side (which was a scam anyway) but on their greed and lust for more money and power. So I don't really see that much of a change to now. The one in this story was a bit over the top perhaps, but still, it makes sense that the Orzhov would be one of the guilds that would use the lack of a binding guildpact to their advantage as much as possible (we also never saw the debtor side of the Orzhov in the original books, so it's kind of hard to tell whether they weren't always like that). I mean, they even have a room in which guildpact magic is not binding, so there's that. The only thing that I would kind of wish for is that their roles as defendants would get more of a spotlight, but that was more or less a side note in the original too.
The Rakdos had a much less interesting characterization in the original, being more or less a buch of sado-masochists who love to kill and maim for their own pleasure. The whole "slave and mining" business only really appeared in the books (once) and wasn't fleshed out itself until RtR. You couldn't tell from the cards that they had ANY really worthwhile task that benefited the rest of Ravnica, even the entertainment aspect was mostly sidelined, so putting it in the forefront and establishing that the guild actually does provide some sort of benefit for Ravnicans society was a step in the right direction.
The Dimir aren't seen as a myth anymore, from what I can tell they are seen more like an open secret. Everyone kind of knows that they exist, but no one who doesn't work with or against them wants to acknowledge it (and even they keep it very hush hush) probably out of fear of what that guild could do to them (losing your memory seems to be the best option here). Additionally no one really knows that much about them. There's probably Dimir propaganda involved to make the guild look even more threatening than it already is.
The Golgari actually didn't really change much between the three blocks they were in.
I would argue that every guild is somewhat evil, some more than others and some in certain aspects more than in others. The old Simic, Azorius and even parts of the Selesnya (remember the Silentmen?) were kind of horrible, same goes to a lesser degree for the Boros, Gruul and Izzet. All of these got better when RtR came around (aside from the Boros, who got worse and then better in Guilds of Ravnica), though all kept a certain shade of grey at least.
Half of those were the actions of individual people and not the guilds as a whole.
Anyway, the point wasn't that the guilds were nicer back then, but that they were less one-dimensional.
3 of those individuals were the guild leaders, and half of the "evil" actions from the black guilds were also the guild leaders or people working on the guild leaders orders as well, Ravnica 1 did the Shades of grey pretty well..everything in MTG writing was less one-dimensional back then because they had actual time with the Novels to write characters as things other than cardboard cutouts.
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