Well we know its 3 Guilds so its just a matter of which Guilds...Kaya seems odd as Bolas Minion but Orzhov does seem a good target for Bolas and it be weird for Kaya to come back for no card but there is the 3rd Ravnica Set.
There's also the unknown new walker who appears on the novel cover. We have no idea if she's a Bolas agent or opponent (or even involved in the set story itself, she could only appear in the book (or not even be a walker) for all we know), so it's possible that not all the planeswalkers will be recurring characters.
She looks Orzhov or Azorius to me assuming she gets a card in the 2nd Ravnica Set. The geometric spellcasting looks more like their magic in those colors then Simic, Rakdos or Gruul to me.
Yeah I guess Azorius because well you got Kaya don't see the point in having two female BW Walkers...but on the flip side we only have 2 Orzhov Walkers in Kaya and Sorin meanwhile we got Teferi, Narset, Dovin and Tamiyo in Azorius. And Kaya and Sorin are much more separated niche wise.
"Planeswalkers, powerful mages from many disparate realities, must unite against the elder dragon Nicol Bolas, who has claimed dominion over Ravnica and is perilously close to completing the spell that will grant him godhood. Now, as dozens of Planeswalkers fight alongside the Gatewatch—led by Chandra Nalaar, Jace Beleren, and Gideon Jura — against Bolas and his relentless army of Eternals, nothing less than the fate of the multiverse is at stake."
"Planeswalkers, powerful mages from many disparate realities, must unite against the elder dragon Nicol Bolas, who has claimed dominion over Ravnica and is perilously close to completing the spell that will grant him godhood. Now, as dozens of Planeswalkers fight alongside the Gatewatch—led by Chandra Nalaar, Jace Beleren, and Gideon Jura — against Bolas and his relentless army of Eternals, nothing less than the fate of the multiverse is at stake."
This is interesting, Nicol has a ritual that will return him to Oldwalker status, but needed Ravnica specifically for it, I wonder if inserting 10 specifically colored planeswalkers on the field has something to do with it given that oldwalkers weren't limited by colored mana (minus their own habits)
Existing that flavour text, the things are 2, either Ral was brainwashed or is more stupid than he seems. Or a 3rd: the flavour text is completely wrong. If he knows he works for Bolas, it should be obvious to him he is just a pawn on a bigger check board: when the pieces that go against you suddenly disappear, and you work for the most ancient dragon planeswalker on the run, you have to think you are just his pawn.
For what we saw of Dovin, you might be right, but I didn't said he IS malicious. I just said we shouldn't rule him out because until now he seemed not malicious. I saw him as a mean of oppression because, to me, he values order for the sake of order rather than for any healthy effect it has on the lives of innocents. I see him basically as a fundamentalist of order. Which does not rule out an evolution to evil: a fundamentalist looks really handsome in a malicious dress.
Existing that flavour text, the things are 2, either Ral was brainwashed or is more stupid than he seems. Or a 3rd: the flavour text is completely wrong. If he knows he works for Bolas, it should be obvious to him he is just a pawn on a bigger check board: when the pieces that go against you suddenly disappear, and you work for the most ancient dragon planeswalker on the run, you have to think you are just his pawn.
For what we saw of Dovin, you might be right, but I didn't said he IS malicious. I just said we shouldn't rule him out because until now he seemed not malicious. I saw him as a mean of oppression because, to me, he values order for the sake of order rather than for any healthy effect it has on the lives of innocents. I see him basically as a fundamentalist of order. Which does not rule out an evolution to evil: a fundamentalist looks really handsome in a malicious dress.
We have no idea what Ral knows of Bolas. We only know he’s met Bolas, but it’s not like everyone whispers about Bolas among Planeswalkers, so it’s not like he has any reason to suspect he’s super powerful in particular. There are too many things we don’t know to jump to conclusions on the nature of Ral and Bolas’ relationship. Outside of Tezz and Lili this is generally the case, I don’t see any reason Dovin (if he shows up) or Kaya or anyone else would be any different barring perhaps Ramaz (again presuming he shows up).
As for Dovin, the guy clearly values order as a means to keep people safe, not order for the sake of order or some other mindless purpose. The times we got to see into his thought process showed that, as well as how he used his particular abilities. He’s also like, extremely not Red, which feels like the kind of color that might be malicious for its own sake.
Bolas’ plan is revealed at last, though it’s nothing new. Wonder how it all goes together. Also very curious what colors the new girl is. I’m guessing she’s third set, but not sure.
Well we might learn just why planeswalker are so attracted to Ravnica now, sounds a bit like history repeating itself with planeswalker armies coming to war with each other.
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Well, Nicol Bolas is pretty much a star. I'd be left pretty perplexed if a blue planeswalker didn't know what is Nicol Bolas. What I mean is: you meet a dragon planeswalker who hires you and you don't go around searching for informations about him before getting a paycheck? Then we learn he is aware he works for Bolas. And now there is a flavour text in which he does not know why he "feels like a pawn". I see this as bananas. Unless he is really THIS stupid, or really THAT brainwashed (or the flavour text writer got bananas himself).
The obscenity of having evil intents only in red and black is long passed, we are exploring villains in every colour combination. I personally think the orthodoxy of Baan is a perfect push towards evil. But I might be alone in this. Also, taking the last moment on the Heart of Kiran: he destroyed the sole weapon the rebels had and adviced them to make an emergency evacuation. Now, rebels were A LOT in Ghirapur at that time, what did he expect to follow to a surrendering? Everything at peace? Heavy punishments with executions would have occured. That would have meant the loss of a lot of citizens for the sake of "order", not the sake of the kaladeshi (who would be decimated disappearing under hoods, etc...). If he thinks he is doing this for the sake of people, it's his own delusion. Because the only difference between Kaladesh before and after the rebellion is the nature of the order reigning (nothing worsen in the fate of kaladeshi, if anything it improves). It's not a matter of order/anarchy, it's just that it's not THE ORDER HE WANT THEM TO HAVE. This is why I think of him as a fundamentalist and a villain (also a bit psychotic).
Well, Nicol Bolas is pretty much a star. I'd be left pretty perplexed if a blue planeswalker didn't know what is Nicol Bolas. What I mean is: you meet a dragon planeswalker who hires you and you don't go around searching for informations about him before getting a paycheck? Then we learn he is aware he works for Bolas. And now there is a flavour text in which he does not know why he "feels like a pawn". I see this as bananas. Unless he is really THIS stupid, or really THAT brainwashed (or the flavour text writer got bananas himself).
The obscenity of having evil intents only in red and black is long passed, we are exploring villains in every colour combination. I personally think the orthodoxy of Baan is a perfect push towards evil. But I might be alone in this. Also, taking the last moment on the Heart of Kiran: he destroyed the sole weapon the rebels had and adviced them to make an emergency evacuation. Now, rebels were A LOT in Ghirapur at that time, what did he expect to follow to a surrendering? Everything at peace? Heavy punishments with executions would have occured. That would have meant the loss of a lot of citizens for the sake of "order", not the sake of the kaladeshi (who would be decimated disappearing under hoods, etc...). If he thinks he is doing this for the sake of people, it's his own delusion. Because the only difference between Kaladesh before and after the rebellion is the nature of the order reigning (nothing worsen in the fate of kaladeshi, if anything it improves). It's not a matter of order/anarchy, it's just that it's not THE ORDER HE WANT THEM TO HAVE. This is why I think of him as a fundamentalist and a villain (also a bit psychotic).
Dovin is also considered a villain by MaRo.
I have a problem with the word villain; it implies too much and as Maro is just one voice within the company (and frequently only gets the broadstrokes of the storyline correct) I wouldn’t call him a reputable source.
Dovin Baan is, currently, best understood as an antagonist, as it is unlikely that there’d be much love between he and the Gatewatch at this moment, and they are the protagonists.
This doesn’t make him evil, and I’d argue that you don’t really understand the definition of Psychopathy by the way in which you use the words surrounding it.
Moreover, antagonism works better as there are revealing elements to his character that show he is very much concerned with minimizing damage to both people and infrastructure. Not all antagonists are “villianous”, “psychotic” or whatever other words simple people desire to paint their opponents as.
What makes Dovin Baan appealing is not that his actions or motives are seen by most of the audience as completely ‘ethical’ (troublesome word that), but that he is genuine, selfless, constructive and well affable. There can even be seen a kind of nobility in his basic desire for order.
I am much confused as to my generation’s hypocrisy in denouncing orderliness as achieved by incongruent methods, while praising or not simultaneously denouncing revolutionaries and “freedom” fighters whose means are likewise troubled.
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Wizards. listen. The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
1. We have no idea what Bolas has appeared as to Ral. We have no idea what their interactions have been. Bolas is a master of whatever magic the plot demands, you’re assuming it’s a straight forward “hi, I’m Nicol Bolas, scourge of the Multiverse” (and I’m being hyperbolic before the inevitable reply) but we have zero idea what is going on. Nothing indicates Nicol Bolas is something people are widely aware of, and we have no idea if Ral has even heard of him or knows anyone who would tell him about Bolas, and that’s assuming Bolas gives him reason to even think that Ral’s patron is Bolas. We have two lines of dialogue, and you’re feeling in gaps with your own assumptions on how it went down.
2. I didn’t say “Black and Red are the only villain colors”. I didn’t say “Dovin can’t be a villain”. What I’m arguing about is that Dovin hasn’t displayed any malice, and being malicious is not really in Dovin’s nature.
As far as Dovin being a villain goes, the guy seems clearly naive, that’s really it for villain potential, based on his character and his reasoning that’s really it. Can Wizards change that? Certainly. But speculating idly about a possible future like that is fruitless, as things stand now he hasn’t shown any indication of malice. If you disagree then provide clear citation, but you won’t find it.
This doesn’t make him evil, and I’d argue that you don’t really understand the definition of Psychopathy by the way in which you use the words surrounding it.
It was "(also a bit psychotic)". Psychosis is not a synonimous of Psychopathy. The absolute love for order of Dovin I categorize as a delusion, a false belief ascended as a dogma for him. That's why I say he is A BIT psychotic, however not completely psychotic, because it requires many more problems.
But you are right about the relativism of the evilness (depends on the point of view) and right about the hypocrisy, though I was dissecting Dovin, not the rebellion. In a utopia it would have all be solved on a table, meeting "half way".
1. We have no idea what Bolas has appeared as to Ral. We have no idea what their interactions have been. Bolas is a master of whatever magic the plot demands, you’re assuming it’s a straight forward “hi, I’m Nicol Bolas, scourge of the Multiverse” (and I’m being hyperbolic before the inevitable reply) but we have zero idea what is going on. Nothing indicates Nicol Bolas is something people are widely aware of, and we have no idea if Ral has even heard of him or knows anyone who would tell him about Bolas, and that’s assuming Bolas gives him reason to even think that Ral’s patron is Bolas. We have two lines of dialogue, and you’re feeling in gaps with your own assumptions on how it went down.
I use previous knowledge I have to make speculations, isn't it kinda why we all talk here? If it is incomplete knowledge, I'm sorry. Thinking Bolas is an enormous narcissist I thought of a brainwash rather than a shapeshifting, but yeah. I was thinking more of a "Hi, can I take some of your time to tell you about our lord and saviour Nicol Bolas? Oh by the way, it's me Nicol Bolas. *blushes (yaoi begins)", but yeah! (well, without "Scourge of the Multiverse")
2. I didn’t say “Black and Red are the only villain colors”. I didn’t say “Dovin can’t be a villain”. What I’m arguing about is that Dovin hasn’t displayed any malice, and being malicious is not really in Dovin’s nature.
As far as Dovin being a villain goes, the guy seems clearly naive, that’s really it for villain potential, based on his character and his reasoning that’s really it. Can Wizards change that? Certainly. But speculating idly about a possible future like that is fruitless, as things stand now he hasn’t shown any indication of malice. If you disagree then provide clear citation, but you won’t find it.
You talked about red being related to evil traits, so I responded about malice being related to no colour anymore. I thought speculating was what we did here. No no, I already said what behaviour makes me think Dovin is malicious, a villain, evil. I said what he did that I see as evil (all that bit about being obsessed by order to the point of risking lives of people to restablish order, etc...). So, nothing else.
1. Yes, but when you’re using knowledge you’re providing and then using that to say the story is badly written/other criticisms then you’re not really approaching it fairly. Given Ravnica story hasn’t even started yet it’s too soon to say how all of it has played out. That’s probably the focus of the story given the Gatewatch are occupied.
2. Malice is not the same thing as being a villain, let alone broadly antagonistic. Dovin, again, is at best naive and sheltered, but nothing indicates he’s malicious. He’s very concerned with helping people, he’s just approaching it in a very White/Blue way in a story that was about a Red protagonist.
"Planeswalkers, powerful mages from many disparate realities, must unite against the elder dragon Nicol Bolas, who has claimed dominion over Ravnica and is perilously close to completing the spell that will grant him godhood. Now, as dozens of Planeswalkers fight alongside the Gatewatch—led by Chandra Nalaar, Jace Beleren, and Gideon Jura — against Bolas and his relentless army of Eternals, nothing less than the fate of the multiverse is at stake."
I am no wordsmith but that would imply 24+ Planeswalkers on the "good" side of the fight. Who knows how many Planeswalkers will be on "Bolas" side and the Eternal Army.
This should be one hell of a battle.
Or actually not, that many Walkers against Bolas should be a easy fight and he should go down....yeah right.
Anyway, wonder if some/all of Bolas Minion Walkers take this situation to turn on him?
How many Mythics will be in [Milk]??
An actual Booster available Masterpiece series of Planeswalkers in "fight against Bolas" poses??
Spoilers just lead to more questions
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Been a member here for over a dozen years. Playing since '95 just got lost in the twitch shuffle.
I already said what behaviour makes me think Dovin is malicious, a villain, evil.
Malice is by definition the desire or intention to cause harm. Everything we know about Dovin Baan highlights his efforts to prevent or minimize harm (to others, to systems, to infrastructure, etc.).
He by definition cannot be considered malicious based on any action we know of him having taken.
I find it funny Teferi and Ajani get no billing on the book...that doesn't do a good things for WOTC Diversity Push...
While furries are probably a demographic WotC is aware of I’m not sure they are that concerned with trying to attract them.
As for Teferi just means he’s not important for the book. Who knows why.
Nothing new for him he wasn't all that important in Dominaria Storyline neither was Karn quite frankly. I say Jaya but eh Jhoira, Karn and Teferi were the focus of the marketing.
I am just saying its funny they finally added some Diversity to the Gatewatch and yet...its like they didn't at all.
But also story wise Ravnica is the home of Jace meanwhile Teferi and Ajani should know the most about Bolas outside of Ugin.
This is about moral relativism. What is order for the spider is chaos for the fly. I think Morticia said this, but it's a perfect example: evil is not only the one who destroys. Most evil people are to protect (or as you say prevent or minimize harm to) something, may it be wealth, relatives, lovers, a dogma, a delusion or a concept. But what this person does is without considering the means and the consequences as valid to define their actions bad. When you see Dovin protecting the order to save people, I see Dovin bringing forth a delusion of order in which he trusts more than anything else, because what does not work has to be fixed in anyway possible, even at the cost of the lives of those you should protect. But why I think this? Because of a moral preconcept I have. I have in my mind a way I suppose is the right way in which a good person should have solved the aether revolt. And it's "Oh there is something wrong with the people, let's hear what it is. Let us sit all at tables and discuss. Oh, so our govern is oppressing you. Let's change it to another order so that everyone is fine." And this is a utopia, sadly, but that's how a good person would have solved the situation for me. It was OBVIOUSLY a plot need to have it escalate, but to make the escalation a logical consequence you need a bunch of villains on the head of the consulate. Sure he was not a governor, but had a high place in the consulate. What I see as the delusion of Dovin is a direct consequence of his innate talent, being capable of seeing what is wrong with machineries, he thinks he can apply the same instinct to everything, elevating HIS order to the highest order possible, the RIGHT ONE. Trasforming what is his idea in a dogma. In my mind I had a dogma too, but which does not provoke the deaths of many, that's why I see MY way as good and HIS as evil.
The moral ambiguity is: Am I still good if I protect an order that protects people if the consequences of me protecting the order are the deaths of many of this people? And is it so an evil intent? Is the intent still good, if you know that your good action will bring bad consequences?
I think you are discussing the fact that he is not malicious because he has seemingly good intents, but I ask, is it still a good intent if Dovin knows people will die because of the action born from his dogmatic intents?
This is like the Crusades: a person elevating his ideals to dogma, sworn to bring his order anywhere, even at the cost of the lives of those your believes taught you not to harm.
So more generally, is the intent really a separate entity from the action? Not to me. To me, killing 10 perfectly fine innocent people to harvest organs to save 1 is the same of killing 10 people for the joy of having them dead. But this is just moral relativism.
So, is the book "RAVNICA" going to contain the whole story? Meaning it's going to have the conclusion of the new Ravnica "block" plot before even the announcement of the third set's name?
That seems extreme reading of Dovin...I seriously doubt he be down for that. Kill 1 to Save 10...yeah I could totally see him doing that.
But we don't need every who clashes with the Gatewatch to be wrong and evil just because. Lets get some shades of grey again where someone opposing Gatewatch does not automatically make them EVIL.
That seems extreme reading of Dovin...I seriously doubt he be down for that. Kill 1 to Save 10...yeah I could totally see him doing that.
But we don't need every who clashes with the Gatewatch to be wrong and evil just because. Lets get some shades of grey again where someone opposing Gatewatch does not automatically make them EVIL.
Ah ah, no... That was just an example of my moral standard, to underline that for me intents and action are not separated in the moral evaluation of a person. Also, he is Grey, because while I see him black, others see him white. But, being basically only me seeing him as black, Dovin is basically more of a CREAM colour. Also we don't need enemies to be grey to love them... I love Nicol Bolas and the Eldrazi (though the latter are grey in many ways probably).
Given that, again, the intent is not to cause harm and every action he takes is to avoid it, he is not malicious. That is the crux of the argument. Arguing about how good or bad his actions are, or any number of side tangents, are certainly interesting subjects (although also a bit off topic given we have no evidence Dovin will even show up in Ravnica) but not related to a willful desire to cause harm. That harm happens as part of his actions does not mean harm was the intent, and for him to be malicious you can’t judge him by anything but that. Which, again, all of his internal dialogue shows an intent to minimize harm to the best of his ability. That it doesn’t go as he hopes is irrelevant.
Given that, again, the intent is not to cause harm and every action he takes is to avoid it, he is not malicious. That is the crux of the argument. Arguing about how good or bad his actions are, or any number of side tangents, are certainly interesting subjects (although also a bit off topic given we have no evidence Dovin will even show up in Ravnica) but not related to a willful desire to cause harm. That harm happens as part of his actions does not mean harm was the intent, and for him to be malicious you can’t judge him by anything but that. Which, again, all of his internal dialogue shows an intent to minimize harm to the best of his ability. That it doesn’t go as he hopes is irrelevant.
Basically this. My argument isn't that Dovin can't be the bad guy, or that he can't be considered evil (though I don't believe that he is, but that's not particularly relevant to this specific quibble). My argument is that labeling him as "Malicious" is flat out ascribing a quality to him that is not supported by, and in fact actively contrary to, the narrative of his character.
Malicious has a very specific meaning that simply doesn't fit with WotC's portrayal of Dovin Baan. He may be many things, but this is not one of them.
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Suppose we need some cannon fodder though.
"Planeswalkers, powerful mages from many disparate realities, must unite against the elder dragon Nicol Bolas, who has claimed dominion over Ravnica and is perilously close to completing the spell that will grant him godhood. Now, as dozens of Planeswalkers fight alongside the Gatewatch—led by Chandra Nalaar, Jace Beleren, and Gideon Jura — against Bolas and his relentless army of Eternals, nothing less than the fate of the multiverse is at stake."
Source: https://www.amazon.com/Ravnica-Magic-Gathering-Greg-Weisman-ebook/dp/B07GVPZBDZ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1536997422&sr=8-1&keywords=ravnica greg weisman
This is interesting, Nicol has a ritual that will return him to Oldwalker status, but needed Ravnica specifically for it, I wonder if inserting 10 specifically colored planeswalkers on the field has something to do with it given that oldwalkers weren't limited by colored mana (minus their own habits)
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For what we saw of Dovin, you might be right, but I didn't said he IS malicious. I just said we shouldn't rule him out because until now he seemed not malicious. I saw him as a mean of oppression because, to me, he values order for the sake of order rather than for any healthy effect it has on the lives of innocents. I see him basically as a fundamentalist of order. Which does not rule out an evolution to evil: a fundamentalist looks really handsome in a malicious dress.
We have no idea what Ral knows of Bolas. We only know he’s met Bolas, but it’s not like everyone whispers about Bolas among Planeswalkers, so it’s not like he has any reason to suspect he’s super powerful in particular. There are too many things we don’t know to jump to conclusions on the nature of Ral and Bolas’ relationship. Outside of Tezz and Lili this is generally the case, I don’t see any reason Dovin (if he shows up) or Kaya or anyone else would be any different barring perhaps Ramaz (again presuming he shows up).
As for Dovin, the guy clearly values order as a means to keep people safe, not order for the sake of order or some other mindless purpose. The times we got to see into his thought process showed that, as well as how he used his particular abilities. He’s also like, extremely not Red, which feels like the kind of color that might be malicious for its own sake.
Bolas’ plan is revealed at last, though it’s nothing new. Wonder how it all goes together. Also very curious what colors the new girl is. I’m guessing she’s third set, but not sure.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
The obscenity of having evil intents only in red and black is long passed, we are exploring villains in every colour combination. I personally think the orthodoxy of Baan is a perfect push towards evil. But I might be alone in this. Also, taking the last moment on the Heart of Kiran: he destroyed the sole weapon the rebels had and adviced them to make an emergency evacuation. Now, rebels were A LOT in Ghirapur at that time, what did he expect to follow to a surrendering? Everything at peace? Heavy punishments with executions would have occured. That would have meant the loss of a lot of citizens for the sake of "order", not the sake of the kaladeshi (who would be decimated disappearing under hoods, etc...). If he thinks he is doing this for the sake of people, it's his own delusion. Because the only difference between Kaladesh before and after the rebellion is the nature of the order reigning (nothing worsen in the fate of kaladeshi, if anything it improves). It's not a matter of order/anarchy, it's just that it's not THE ORDER HE WANT THEM TO HAVE. This is why I think of him as a fundamentalist and a villain (also a bit psychotic).
Dovin is also considered a villain by MaRo.
I have a problem with the word villain; it implies too much and as Maro is just one voice within the company (and frequently only gets the broadstrokes of the storyline correct) I wouldn’t call him a reputable source.
Dovin Baan is, currently, best understood as an antagonist, as it is unlikely that there’d be much love between he and the Gatewatch at this moment, and they are the protagonists.
This doesn’t make him evil, and I’d argue that you don’t really understand the definition of Psychopathy by the way in which you use the words surrounding it.
Moreover, antagonism works better as there are revealing elements to his character that show he is very much concerned with minimizing damage to both people and infrastructure. Not all antagonists are “villianous”, “psychotic” or whatever other words simple people desire to paint their opponents as.
What makes Dovin Baan appealing is not that his actions or motives are seen by most of the audience as completely ‘ethical’ (troublesome word that), but that he is genuine, selfless, constructive and well affable. There can even be seen a kind of nobility in his basic desire for order.
I am much confused as to my generation’s hypocrisy in denouncing orderliness as achieved by incongruent methods, while praising or not simultaneously denouncing revolutionaries and “freedom” fighters whose means are likewise troubled.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
2. I didn’t say “Black and Red are the only villain colors”. I didn’t say “Dovin can’t be a villain”. What I’m arguing about is that Dovin hasn’t displayed any malice, and being malicious is not really in Dovin’s nature.
As far as Dovin being a villain goes, the guy seems clearly naive, that’s really it for villain potential, based on his character and his reasoning that’s really it. Can Wizards change that? Certainly. But speculating idly about a possible future like that is fruitless, as things stand now he hasn’t shown any indication of malice. If you disagree then provide clear citation, but you won’t find it.
It was "(also a bit psychotic)". Psychosis is not a synonimous of Psychopathy. The absolute love for order of Dovin I categorize as a delusion, a false belief ascended as a dogma for him. That's why I say he is A BIT psychotic, however not completely psychotic, because it requires many more problems.
But you are right about the relativism of the evilness (depends on the point of view) and right about the hypocrisy, though I was dissecting Dovin, not the rebellion. In a utopia it would have all be solved on a table, meeting "half way".
I use previous knowledge I have to make speculations, isn't it kinda why we all talk here? If it is incomplete knowledge, I'm sorry. Thinking Bolas is an enormous narcissist I thought of a brainwash rather than a shapeshifting, but yeah. I was thinking more of a "Hi, can I take some of your time to tell you about our lord and saviour Nicol Bolas? Oh by the way, it's me Nicol Bolas. *blushes (yaoi begins)", but yeah! (well, without "Scourge of the Multiverse")
You talked about red being related to evil traits, so I responded about malice being related to no colour anymore. I thought speculating was what we did here. No no, I already said what behaviour makes me think Dovin is malicious, a villain, evil. I said what he did that I see as evil (all that bit about being obsessed by order to the point of risking lives of people to restablish order, etc...). So, nothing else.
2. Malice is not the same thing as being a villain, let alone broadly antagonistic. Dovin, again, is at best naive and sheltered, but nothing indicates he’s malicious. He’s very concerned with helping people, he’s just approaching it in a very White/Blue way in a story that was about a Red protagonist.
I am no wordsmith but that would imply 24+ Planeswalkers on the "good" side of the fight. Who knows how many Planeswalkers will be on "Bolas" side and the Eternal Army.
This should be one hell of a battle.
Or actually not, that many Walkers against Bolas should be a easy fight and he should go down....yeah right.
Anyway, wonder if some/all of Bolas Minion Walkers take this situation to turn on him?
How many Mythics will be in [Milk]??
An actual Booster available Masterpiece series of Planeswalkers in "fight against Bolas" poses??
Spoilers just lead to more questions
Malice is by definition the desire or intention to cause harm. Everything we know about Dovin Baan highlights his efforts to prevent or minimize harm (to others, to systems, to infrastructure, etc.).
He by definition cannot be considered malicious based on any action we know of him having taken.
While furries are probably a demographic WotC is aware of I’m not sure they are that concerned with trying to attract them.
As for Teferi just means he’s not important for the book. Who knows why.
Nothing new for him he wasn't all that important in Dominaria Storyline neither was Karn quite frankly. I say Jaya but eh Jhoira, Karn and Teferi were the focus of the marketing.
I am just saying its funny they finally added some Diversity to the Gatewatch and yet...its like they didn't at all.
But also story wise Ravnica is the home of Jace meanwhile Teferi and Ajani should know the most about Bolas outside of Ugin.
The moral ambiguity is: Am I still good if I protect an order that protects people if the consequences of me protecting the order are the deaths of many of this people? And is it so an evil intent? Is the intent still good, if you know that your good action will bring bad consequences?
I think you are discussing the fact that he is not malicious because he has seemingly good intents, but I ask, is it still a good intent if Dovin knows people will die because of the action born from his dogmatic intents?
This is like the Crusades: a person elevating his ideals to dogma, sworn to bring his order anywhere, even at the cost of the lives of those your believes taught you not to harm.
So more generally, is the intent really a separate entity from the action? Not to me. To me, killing 10 perfectly fine innocent people to harvest organs to save 1 is the same of killing 10 people for the joy of having them dead. But this is just moral relativism.
But we don't need every who clashes with the Gatewatch to be wrong and evil just because. Lets get some shades of grey again where someone opposing Gatewatch does not automatically make them EVIL.
Ah ah, no... That was just an example of my moral standard, to underline that for me intents and action are not separated in the moral evaluation of a person. Also, he is Grey, because while I see him black, others see him white. But, being basically only me seeing him as black, Dovin is basically more of a CREAM colour. Also we don't need enemies to be grey to love them... I love Nicol Bolas and the Eldrazi (though the latter are grey in many ways probably).
Basically this. My argument isn't that Dovin can't be the bad guy, or that he can't be considered evil (though I don't believe that he is, but that's not particularly relevant to this specific quibble). My argument is that labeling him as "Malicious" is flat out ascribing a quality to him that is not supported by, and in fact actively contrary to, the narrative of his character.
Malicious has a very specific meaning that simply doesn't fit with WotC's portrayal of Dovin Baan. He may be many things, but this is not one of them.