I think the idea is that people didn't expect to see sympathy from Bolas at all, so it was more than expected in the context of the sociopath we know Bolas to be.
I'll always maintain that Nahiri was justified. I'll never understand how someone wronged in every way, that directed inevitable suffering to a source that would deliver due justice is a villain. I'm glad she sent Emrakul to Innistrad. I would NEVER have risked my own home world, or basically surrendered my spark as an Oldwalker to remain shackled to a prison for unfathomable alien monsters threatening to consume everything. Nahiri did both. And she almost got imprisoned for eternity for it. She's done as an Oldwalker. Her best days are over. Most of her world is a desiccated husk in spite of all her sacrifices. Its people slaughtered. If she hadn't done what she did, Zendikar would have ended, as far as she knew. And a new unsuspecting plane would fall next. Sorin is lucky she didn't dodgeball his face with the Immortal Sun, toss Bolas in the mix and set off a Phyrexian Oil bath bomb in the ruins of Markov Manor's once-finest tub with Ulamog and Kozilek on RSVP. Screw that.
Speaking of Eldrazi. It's crazy to think how Bolas and Ugin go from fearful of arrows and sorcery to literally dealing with Eldrazi Titans one day. I wish we had a some sinister reason for their release other than "planeswalkers." Although I will say, I suspect Bolas is taking advantage of humans liking to work together for a common goal, allowing the Gatewatch and other PWs to amass, so he can trap them all on Ravnica. I wonder if his intention is to trap them there until they're all either slaughtered outright by Eternals or trapped long enough to die anyway. It's a good idea, getting rid of all your opponents in one swoop. Gather the opposition, seal them away.
I think the idea is that people didn't expect to see sympathy from Bolas at all, so it was more than expected in the context of the sociopath we know Bolas to be.
I'll always maintain that Nahiri was justified. I'll never understand how someone wronged in every way, that directed inevitable suffering to a source that would deliver due justice is a villain. I'm glad she sent Emrakul to Innistrad. I would NEVER have risked my own home world, or basically surrendered my spark as an Oldwalker to remain shackled to a prison for unfathomable alien monsters threatening to consume everything. Nahiri did both. And she almost got imprisoned for eternity for it. She's done as an Oldwalker. Her best days are over. Most of her world is a desiccated husk in spite of all her sacrifices. Its people slaughtered. If she hadn't done what she did, Zendikar would have ended, as far as she knew. And a new unsuspecting plane would fall next. Sorin is lucky she didn't dodgeball his face with the Immortal Sun, toss Bolas in the mix and set off a Phyrexian Oil bath bomb in the ruins of Markov Manor's once-finest tub with Ulamog and Kozilek on RSVP. Screw that.
Speaking of Eldrazi. It's crazy to think how Bolas and Ugin go from fearful of arrows and sorcery to literally dealing with Eldrazi Titans one day. I wish we had a some sinister reason for their release other than "planeswalkers." Although I will say, I suspect Bolas is taking advantage of humans liking to work together for a common goal, allowing the Gatewatch and other PWs to amass, so he can trap them all on Ravnica. I wonder if his intention is to trap them there until they're all either slaughtered outright by Eternals or trapped long enough to die anyway. It's a good idea, getting rid of all your opponents in one swoop. Gather the opposition, seal them away.
I'm leaving this excerpt here and I would like someone to convince me that she was just a hapless victim.
"And what gives us the right?" Nahiri asked again. "Yes, fine, risk one world to save the others. If we can stop these Eldrazi, maybe…maybe that means we have to. But what gives us the right to choose which world must bear the burden?"
"What alternative is there?" asked Sorin. "Shall we take a referendum?"
"That is why I chose Zendikar," said Ugin quietly. "Because it does have a protector, someone who has already chosen to take its destiny into her hands. Someone who will do the right thing."
"And if I refuse?" asked Nahiri. "Will you 'convince' me by force?"
"No," said Ugin. "Because I also need your help."
In my alternate magic universe I wish I could live in, Nahiri would have been just been a mysterious legend rather than a woman who attempted to nuke millions of people cuz they happened to live on the same plane as someone who 'wronged' her.
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Embrace the dark you call a home,
Gaze upon an empty, white throne
A legacy of lies,
A familiar disguise
Sing with me a song of conquest and fate
The black pillar cracks beneath its weight
Night breaks through the day, hard as a stone
Lost in thoughts all alone
I think the idea is that people didn't expect to see sympathy from Bolas at all, so it was more than expected in the context of the sociopath we know Bolas to be.
I'll always maintain that Nahiri was justified. I'll never understand how someone wronged in every way, that directed inevitable suffering to a source that would deliver due justice is a villain. I'm glad she sent Emrakul to Innistrad. I would NEVER have risked my own home world, or basically surrendered my spark as an Oldwalker to remain shackled to a prison for unfathomable alien monsters threatening to consume everything. Nahiri did both. And she almost got imprisoned for eternity for it. She's done as an Oldwalker. Her best days are over. Most of her world is a desiccated husk in spite of all her sacrifices. Its people slaughtered. If she hadn't done what she did, Zendikar would have ended, as far as she knew. And a new unsuspecting plane would fall next. Sorin is lucky she didn't dodgeball his face with the Immortal Sun, toss Bolas in the mix and set off a Phyrexian Oil bath bomb in the ruins of Markov Manor's once-finest tub with Ulamog and Kozilek on RSVP. Screw that.
Speaking of Eldrazi. It's crazy to think how Bolas and Ugin go from fearful of arrows and sorcery to literally dealing with Eldrazi Titans one day. I wish we had a some sinister reason for their release other than "planeswalkers." Although I will say, I suspect Bolas is taking advantage of humans liking to work together for a common goal, allowing the Gatewatch and other PWs to amass, so he can trap them all on Ravnica. I wonder if his intention is to trap them there until they're all either slaughtered outright by Eternals or trapped long enough to die anyway. It's a good idea, getting rid of all your opponents in one swoop. Gather the opposition, seal them away.
I'm leaving this excerpt here and I would like someone to convince me that she was just a hapless victim.
"And what gives us the right?" Nahiri asked again. "Yes, fine, risk one world to save the others. If we can stop these Eldrazi, maybe…maybe that means we have to. But what gives us the right to choose which world must bear the burden?"
"What alternative is there?" asked Sorin. "Shall we take a referendum?"
"That is why I chose Zendikar," said Ugin quietly. "Because it does have a protector, someone who has already chosen to take its destiny into her hands. Someone who will do the right thing."
"And if I refuse?" asked Nahiri. "Will you 'convince' me by force?"
"No," said Ugin. "Because I also need your help."
In my alternate magic universe I wish I could live in, Nahiri would have been just been a mysterious legend rather than a woman who attempted to nuke millions of people cuz they happened to live on the same plane as someone who 'wronged' her.
Because millions weren't going to get nuked on another plane after Zendikar was finished getting thoroughly nuked? At least this way, she delivered justice to someone who didn't follow through with promises and responsibilities, on a plane that was a nightmare to begin with, no less. And spared what was left of her home. One way or another, the nuking was inevitable. Might as well use it to accomplish something.
Nahiri discourse is off topic and old, lets not please.
On the Magic stream today they announced Vivien will be given a three part story written by Cassandra Khaw. While I'm slowly turning cold to her, I glad we get a story and not a Tamiyo/Tibalt/Kenrith Twins/Gobal Series Walkers things again where we just get a back ground bio and that is it.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I think the idea is that people didn't expect to see sympathy from Bolas at all, so it was more than expected in the context of the sociopath we know Bolas to be.
I'll always maintain that Nahiri was justified. I'll never understand how someone wronged in every way, that directed inevitable suffering to a source that would deliver due justice is a villain. I'm glad she sent Emrakul to Innistrad. I would NEVER have risked my own home world, or basically surrendered my spark as an Oldwalker to remain shackled to a prison for unfathomable alien monsters threatening to consume everything. Nahiri did both. And she almost got imprisoned for eternity for it. She's done as an Oldwalker. Her best days are over. Most of her world is a desiccated husk in spite of all her sacrifices. Its people slaughtered. If she hadn't done what she did, Zendikar would have ended, as far as she knew. And a new unsuspecting plane would fall next. Sorin is lucky she didn't dodgeball his face with the Immortal Sun, toss Bolas in the mix and set off a Phyrexian Oil bath bomb in the ruins of Markov Manor's once-finest tub with Ulamog and Kozilek on RSVP. Screw that.
Speaking of Eldrazi. It's crazy to think how Bolas and Ugin go from fearful of arrows and sorcery to literally dealing with Eldrazi Titans one day. I wish we had a some sinister reason for their release other than "planeswalkers." Although I will say, I suspect Bolas is taking advantage of humans liking to work together for a common goal, allowing the Gatewatch and other PWs to amass, so he can trap them all on Ravnica. I wonder if his intention is to trap them there until they're all either slaughtered outright by Eternals or trapped long enough to die anyway. It's a good idea, getting rid of all your opponents in one swoop. Gather the opposition, seal them away.
While her motives for wanting revenge on Sorin and her feeling that he betrayed her are more than justified, that does nothing to justify taking it out on another world. Just like Bolas, her motivations are more complex and interesting than those of a generic doomsday villain (and she is definitely not just a woman scorn, don't even know how people get this idea), but that doesn't mean that she had any right to do what she did to Innistrad. It doesn't even make her particularly sympathetic in my opinion. It was all a personal vendetta against Sorin, which she could have enacted by trapping him like she ultimately did and if really necessary destroying Markov Manor (that she already killed innocent Jenrik as collateral damage should be troubling enough even if you think killing all these vampires wasn't uncalled for). Calling Emrakul though and commiting the whole plane to mutations and madness was just too much and makes her kind of a hypocrite to boot. You can't revenge an awful act (like leaving Zendikar to the Eldrazi and entrapping Nahiri in the Helvault) with an even worse act (deliberately causing mass death and destruction yourself via Emrakul).
So yeah, tldr; It's good that both Bolas and Nahiri have rather complex motivations, but that doesn't make them sympathetic (or worse, right), just slightly more relatable.
This is off topic, but since we're talking about Sorin and Nahiri atm: Could someone explain to me why Sorin couldn't find Nahiri when he wanted to gather the Three? Reading the wiki, he had previously put her in the Helvault. Did he just forget that she was in there?
Nicol is a consummate sociopath. That he has anyone's sympathy is mindboggling.
While I don't fully agree with what you said (not because I think you're wrong, but only because I have lost interest in discussing too much about it), sympathy for characters is something Wizards have really screwed up about when it comes to characterizing.
I know I sound confusing, but between Angrath and Bolas in M19, I kinda get the feeling that Wizards think that for any character to be likeable to fans, they must have some sort of sob story background to fish for sympathy. I mean like, ugh, did they really have to decide that Angrath had family back home and that he had not seen them for fourteen. frikkin. years? And now, it almost seems to me that they give some teary excuses to make Bolas "not-too-vile" by giving him family that he used to care about (I only read the spoilers, but that alone is enough to make me puke...). I mean, really?
Wizards, please. You have BADLY disappointed me by failing HORRIBLY in making ancient characters that actually do feel ancient, and now you think that a character can never be liked by fans if they don't have these so-called TRAGIC history. Please. One lesson you MUST understand, Wizards, is that a character does NOT need excessively melodramatic past to be likeable, and doing this to BOLAS of all people just pretty much ruins my interest in Magic story anymore....... So if you're still a fan of these sob stories, stop.
It feels strange to me that the Elder Dragons seem to have started off as regular ol' dragons who then grew up. I mean, it makes sense. But my notion of Elder Dragon since the 90s left no room for vulnerable, young Elder Dragons. Is this Wizards way of saying that all dragons could feasibly grow up to be elder-level after enough time? They did make the Tarkir dragon leaders Elders.
@magac: Maybe you should read the stories before assuming too much. Bolas "cared" about Ugin in one of the most umempathetic and self-centered ways possible. The quote in questiom does in no way make his early life a "sob story". It's not like he fell into deep depression after Ugin left and got on his villainous path because of that. It simply describes a moment in which he was in kind of a pinch (and not a full-grown dragon yet) and wished his brother was still there, but not for emotional support or anything, but basically so Bolas could have another weapon in his arsenal to further his plans. They are twins, so maybe there was some form of genuine care deep within Bolas, but as far as we have seen, it was twisted by Bolas's intentions and view of the world at a pretty early stage in his life.
@Perkunas: I think Elder Dragons (i.e. dragons born directly from the Ur-Dragon in the distant past) are still inherently more powerful because minor dragons are also mentioned in the story. Bolas and Ugin are a special case because they're two (sentient) halves of what would've usually been one Elder Dragon. The others - Chromium, Palladia-Mors etc. - already seemed pretty powerful to me right from the start. WotC has been mkre liberal with the un-retired Elder type since Tarkir, it now usually just signifies very old and powerful beings, but not in the same vein as the original Elder Dragons.
Because millions weren't going to get nuked on another plane after Zendikar was finished getting thoroughly nuked? At least this way, she delivered justice to someone who didn't follow through with promises and responsibilities, on a plane that was a nightmare to begin with, no less. And spared what was left of her home. One way or another, the nuking was inevitable. Might as well use it to accomplish something.
I'll keep my mind boggled at how "fascinated" you are or anyone is with Bolas' sociopathic behavior. You already stated you find nothing heinous about his actions, which was well-responded to by a different user already. (Which you have decided not to address). Your first 5 of 6 points from the recent story that "rocked your world" were about Bolas and borderline admiration of. So yeah, that boggles my mind.
I don’t think I have to explain how appreciating how a particular character is written does not equate to admiration of that actual character. But I grudgingly - and very grudgingly - see how my earlier post could be misconstrued as admiration for Nicol Bolas. I think I see where we’re disconnecting, so I’ll lay out my thoughts so I am hopefully more clear.
For the record:
1.) Though Bolas is certainly a self-obsessed brat from very early on, his most monstrous act in the first four chapters is making one man in Arcades’s kingdom kill his twin—neither of those men were any threat to him, nor involved in killing dragons in any way. By contrast, however, nothing he does in Chapter 4 strikes me as particularly atrocious or disproportional from a dragon's-eye view. Ruthless, yes. Harsh, yes. But not wantonly so. That’s not to say I’m cheering him on — I just find his way of thinking, his mistrust and desire to put these dragon-slaying humans in their place, easy to understand at that point in the story.
2.) If my comments on Bolas’s presentation have seemed glowing, I’ll provide some context: I’ve had a tumultuous relationship with Bolas as a character these past ten years. For almost nine of those years, I loathed how he was presented. I considered him a lame, boring, cartoonish villain who only impressed kids because “Wow, he’s a dragon! Isn’t that cool?” I hated his pointless villainy, his being evil just for the sake of being evil, and I hated how he was forced down our throats. And I hated his inexplicable (to me) popularity despite it all. I couldn’t wait for him to just die so that maybe we might see interesting new threats who didn’t feel like they were written by a fifth grader.
Then Amonkhet Block happened. Specifically, Hour of Devastation. I was originally irked that my long-awaited Egyptian Block was really just Bolas World, and it made me hate him even more. I didn’t buy a single pack of Amonkhet because that stupid ***ing dragon being at the center of it ruined the world for me at the time, and I wanted no part of it (That’s literally how much I hated him — I didn’t even buy packs from a set whose flavor centered on his character). But for some reason - I don’t even remember why now — I ended up reading a few of the fictions. And the Hour of Devastation story honestly terrified me. As someone who grew up quite religious, it hit all my worst possible nightmares (and while I know that story was bitter, emotional, and tragic for many, I think it takes someone with a religious background to fully appreciate the sheer existential horror of Hour of Devastation). In the space of that one arc, I realized that Bolas could be terrifying after all. He could be, dare I admit it, a well-written, frightening villain. Suddenly, I was interested in seeing how his story played out, and how the Gatewatch would finally beat him.
Enter Core 2019. Here we’re finally delving into Bolas’s formative years and what makes him tick. And it’s such a relief to me to see that while yes, he’s been a despicable, evil creature all along, the roots of his evil make sense. They are fitting. They are interesting and add flesh to his character. And glimpsing his insecurities and the fact that he occasionally has relatable emotions, and importantly, that he did have some emotional need for another being at one point—these are all excellent because they bring humanity to his evil. Seeing him NOT being the biggest bad boy around for once, and having to rely purely on his wits and deceptions to escape from far more powerful adversaries – in short, seeing the vulnerable, insecure, fearful worm from which he arose - makes me fascinated to see how his tale plays out, and ultimately ends.
I’ve never done a complete 180 on a fictional character like I have with Nicol Bolas. In the last year, Dragon Satan has gone from the thing I hated most about Magic to a compelling character in his own right and the character whose conclusion I’m most interested in seeing. It just goes to show how much a difference having the right authors can make. Watching a character I considered an utter cancer on the MTG story successfully transformed into one of its most well-written and interesting personalities has reinvigorated my enthusiasm for the current MTG story. It's a monumental feat of characterization. Yes, I celebrate it.
I think the idea is that people didn't expect to see sympathy from Bolas at all, so it was more than expected in the context of the sociopath we know Bolas to be.
I'll always maintain that Nahiri was justified. I'll never understand how someone wronged in every way, that directed inevitable suffering to a source that would deliver due justice is a villain. I'm glad she sent Emrakul to Innistrad. I would NEVER have risked my own home world, or basically surrendered my spark as an Oldwalker to remain shackled to a prison for unfathomable alien monsters threatening to consume everything. Nahiri did both. And she almost got imprisoned for eternity for it. She's done as an Oldwalker. Her best days are over. Most of her world is a desiccated husk in spite of all her sacrifices. Its people slaughtered. If she hadn't done what she did, Zendikar would have ended, as far as she knew. And a new unsuspecting plane would fall next. Sorin is lucky she didn't dodgeball his face with the Immortal Sun, toss Bolas in the mix and set off a Phyrexian Oil bath bomb in the ruins of Markov Manor's once-finest tub with Ulamog and Kozilek on RSVP. Screw that.
Speaking of Eldrazi. It's crazy to think how Bolas and Ugin go from fearful of arrows and sorcery to literally dealing with Eldrazi Titans one day. I wish we had a some sinister reason for their release other than "planeswalkers." Although I will say, I suspect Bolas is taking advantage of humans liking to work together for a common goal, allowing the Gatewatch and other PWs to amass, so he can trap them all on Ravnica. I wonder if his intention is to trap them there until they're all either slaughtered outright by Eternals or trapped long enough to die anyway. It's a good idea, getting rid of all your opponents in one swoop. Gather the opposition, seal them away.
I'm leaving this excerpt here and I would like someone to convince me that she was just a hapless victim.
"And what gives us the right?" Nahiri asked again. "Yes, fine, risk one world to save the others. If we can stop these Eldrazi, maybe…maybe that means we have to. But what gives us the right to choose which world must bear the burden?"
"What alternative is there?" asked Sorin. "Shall we take a referendum?"
"That is why I chose Zendikar," said Ugin quietly. "Because it does have a protector, someone who has already chosen to take its destiny into her hands. Someone who will do the right thing."
"And if I refuse?" asked Nahiri. "Will you 'convince' me by force?"
"No," said Ugin. "Because I also need your help."
In my alternate magic universe I wish I could live in, Nahiri would have been just been a mysterious legend rather than a woman who attempted to nuke millions of people cuz they happened to live on the same plane as someone who 'wronged' her.
Because millions weren't going to get nuked on another plane after Zendikar was finished getting thoroughly nuked? At least this way, she delivered justice to someone who didn't follow through with promises and responsibilities, on a plane that was a nightmare to begin with, no less. And spared what was left of her home. One way or another, the nuking was inevitable. Might as well use it to accomplish something.
So I don't want to veer the discussion more off topic, and if we want to discuss it more we could start a new thread. But I think that people forget that noble and selfless actions do not always correlate with good consequences. Nahiri made a choice with the other two to trap the Eldrazi on Zendikar. Ugin flat out said they were unable to do it without her. I think that people also far-far overdo it when it comes to Sorin's responsibility with the Eldrazi's escape. He was activlyseeking a solution to their escape. The original gatewatch with the exception of Gideon had more to do with them being set free than Sorin does. Nicol Bolas has more to answer for when it comes to the Eldrazi than Sorin does. Should Vryn and Kaledesh suffer? The only crime that I think Sorin purposefully commited was traping Nahiri in the Helvault (well as far as Nahiri and Zendikar are considered).
The putting Innistrad out of its misery argument is also super flawed. Innistrad was on the mend. Arguably Nahiri made it worse than it was in Dark Ascension.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Embrace the dark you call a home,
Gaze upon an empty, white throne
A legacy of lies,
A familiar disguise
Sing with me a song of conquest and fate
The black pillar cracks beneath its weight
Night breaks through the day, hard as a stone
Lost in thoughts all alone
This is the problem with getting rid of the mystery first no Elder Dragon should be going down to some primitive bipedals. We don't need that to form some sympathetic motivation for Bolas...honestly Bolas and Dragons in general should have so to speak Orange and Blue Morality ie not defined by typical humanoid norms cause you know they are not Human.
I think the idea is that people didn't expect to see sympathy from Bolas at all, so it was more than expected in the context of the sociopath we know Bolas to be.
I'll always maintain that Nahiri was justified. I'll never understand how someone wronged in every way, that directed inevitable suffering to a source that would deliver due justice is a villain. I'm glad she sent Emrakul to Innistrad. I would NEVER have risked my own home world, or basically surrendered my spark as an Oldwalker to remain shackled to a prison for unfathomable alien monsters threatening to consume everything. Nahiri did both. And she almost got imprisoned for eternity for it. She's done as an Oldwalker. Her best days are over. Most of her world is a desiccated husk in spite of all her sacrifices. Its people slaughtered. If she hadn't done what she did, Zendikar would have ended, as far as she knew. And a new unsuspecting plane would fall next. Sorin is lucky she didn't dodgeball his face with the Immortal Sun, toss Bolas in the mix and set off a Phyrexian Oil bath bomb in the ruins of Markov Manor's once-finest tub with Ulamog and Kozilek on RSVP. Screw that.
Speaking of Eldrazi. It's crazy to think how Bolas and Ugin go from fearful of arrows and sorcery to literally dealing with Eldrazi Titans one day. I wish we had a some sinister reason for their release other than "planeswalkers." Although I will say, I suspect Bolas is taking advantage of humans liking to work together for a common goal, allowing the Gatewatch and other PWs to amass, so he can trap them all on Ravnica. I wonder if his intention is to trap them there until they're all either slaughtered outright by Eternals or trapped long enough to die anyway. It's a good idea, getting rid of all your opponents in one swoop. Gather the opposition, seal them away.
While her motives for wanting revenge on Sorin and her feeling that he betrayed her are more than justified, that does nothing to justify taking it out on another world.
Who said she took anything out on another world? Emrakul wasn't going to stay on Zendikar forever. She was going to finish it off and move on to the next world, possibly arriving at Innistrad in time. I don't see how directing the inevitable is as bad as people claim.
Chances are Emrakul/the Eldrazi wouldn't have visited Innistrad for a long time, they're attracted to bountiful mana and that's not one of Innistrad's characteristics. It's also not difficult to see why choosing a specific world (and its more or less innocent inhabitants) as the next one to be destroyed would be seen as more immoral than leaving it to chance/the whims of incomprehensible eldritch monstrosities. Your reasoning only makes sense if you think about worlds/planes like oldwalkers used to think about them. But characters are evaluated on a more personal level now (and many oldwalkers are widely considered "jerks" - a relatively mild term - by people for not caring about a world's inhabitants as long as it served their goals).
Nahiri is just being a classic Oldwalker. The little people don't matter only Oldwalkers and to a lesser extent other powerful Immortals. Sorin screwed her thus what he cares about most must pay the price.
She is also probably not the most mentally sane Oldwalker, she spent her time sitting on plane with no other immortals (besides the Eldrazi) and then spent more time in a prison surrounded by Demons. Compare to Sorin who on a plane with quite a few characters as old as him him or close to it or any of the Domanarians. Sure you may hate being able to interact with those similar to you has to help the psyche, watching everyone you know die all the time has got to have negative impact for more social species.
Maybe someone cant start a Oldwalker mentality thread because all this talk for the last two days has mostly nothing to do with Core Set 19 Storyline.
ON TOPIC:
Intereting that Ugin is possibly the first planeswalker?
Interesting that Bolas need to use deception and manipulation to make up for his apparent weakness of physical strength compared to other dragons, and that this mental manipulation is seemingly the reason for the Elder Dragon Wars
Not sure if Ugin or Bolas was influencing Jins story or if he was subconsciously tailoriing it to be a little more Pro-Dragon so a not to enrage Atarka and keep her satisfied becaus if he staring telling of the terribleness of Bolas's actions instead of grandizing them she may have just bit him in half.
Three episodes left to see what happens at Ugins grave and how Bolas sparks.
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Been a member here for over a dozen years. Playing since '95 just got lost in the twitch shuffle.
Maybe someone cant start a Oldwalker mentality thread because all this talk for the last two days has mostly nothing to do with Core Set 19 Storyline.
ON TOPIC:
Intereting that Ugin is possibly the first planeswalker?
Interesting that Bolas need to use deception and manipulation to make up for his apparent weakness of physical strength compared to other dragons, and that this mental manipulation is seemingly the reason for the Elder Dragon Wars
Not sure if Ugin or Bolas was influencing Jins story or if he was subconsciously tailoriing it to be a little more Pro-Dragon so a not to enrage Atarka and keep her satisfied becaus if he staring telling of the terribleness of Bolas's actions instead of grandizing them she may have just bit him in half.
Three episodes left to see what happens at Ugins grave and how Bolas sparks.
Well, Tae Jin specifically says that it wasn't the story he was trying to tell (he was going to tell Atarka about the summit with Shu Yun, where Shu ultimately surrendered the Jeskai to Ojutai);
"What tale was that you told, so like Ugin's story and yet not his story at all?"
"I don't know. I meant to tell the tale of the last days of Shu Yun's leadership. Of the last meeting of the khans and how they fell to the dragons."
This leads one to believe that someone was manipulating/influencing him to tell a different story (and all the Bolas aggrandizing certainly doesn't sound very Ugin-y).
A flash of golden light flared like the sun rising at zenith, but the brightness was extinguished as quickly as it had appeared, leaving the stars again to shine. Yet some of those stars vanished in a descending trail, blotted out and then reappearing in a trail as if a large shape was falling out of the heavens. Naiva rubbed her eyes, thinking the storm had injured her vision, but when she looked again all the stars shone steadily. The clouds began clearing off as the rain ceased. Surely the falling blot had been nothing more than a distortion of wind and churning cloud.
The golden flash of light isn't actually consistent with the described effect of Bolas planeswalking in the Hour of Devastation story (there, it was described almost like a black void being ripped in reality), but this definitely has the feel of a really big planeswalker appearing in the sky and then descending to earth. And in a story where Bolas is described as "the Second Sun"...well, it would fit.
Why Bolas would take the time to tell his side of the story with someone else's voice, I don't know, but that definitely felt like what was going on to me.
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"The true measure of all heroes is not what they achieve, but who they inspire." —Triumph of Gerrard
A flash of golden light flared like the sun rising at zenith, but the brightness was extinguished as quickly as it had appeared, leaving the stars again to shine. Yet some of those stars vanished in a descending trail, blotted out and then reappearing in a trail as if a large shape was falling out of the heavens. Naiva rubbed her eyes, thinking the storm had injured her vision, but when she looked again all the stars shone steadily. The clouds began clearing off as the rain ceased. Surely the falling blot had been nothing more than a distortion of wind and churning cloud.
The golden flash of light isn't actually consistent with the described effect of Bolas planeswalking in the Hour of Devastation story (there, it was described almost like a black void being ripped in reality), but this definitely has the feel of a really big planeswalker appearing in the sky and then descending to earth. And in a story where Bolas is described as "the Second Sun"...well, it would fit.
Why Bolas would take the time to tell his side of the story with someone else's voice, I don't know, but that definitely felt like what was going on to me.
I had simply taken it to be Atarka. She does sneak up on them (How exactly does a massive dragon with glowing antlers "sneak" up on anyone/thing?) in short order afterwards.
@magac: Maybe you should read the stories before assuming too much. Bolas "cared" about Ugin in one of the most umempathetic and self-centered ways possible. The quote in questiom does in no way make his early life a "sob story". It's not like he fell into deep depression after Ugin left and got on his villainous path because of that. It simply describes a moment in which he was in kind of a pinch (and not a full-grown dragon yet) and wished his brother was still there, but not for emotional support or anything, but basically so Bolas could have another weapon in his arsenal to further his plans. They are twins, so maybe there was some form of genuine care deep within Bolas, but as far as we have seen, it was twisted by Bolas's intentions and view of the world at a pretty early stage in his life.
Thanks for the feedback. I know I am very, very unfair to judge based on spoiler snippets alone, but if what I see in spoilers just doesn't appeal to me at all, I can't be bothered to read the full story to see the actual description.
And in Bolas' case, it wasn't Ugin that gave me the "sob story" impression; it's Merrevia Sal. Basically from what little I bothered to read, she simply exists as an excuse to give Bolas some sympathetic motives, but the relative suddenness of her introduction (about as sudden as the reveal that Ugin is now Bolas' twin instead of a random someone), then being topped off by her sudden removal from the lore, makes it look more like a pathetic attempt by Wizards to fish for sympathy, and that's where they rub me off the very, very wrong way.
(sidenote: I find it hilarious that we can chop off three letters from sympathetic to get pathetic. Pretty fitting in this situation :XD:)
Who said she took anything out on another world? Emrakul wasn't going to stay on Zendikar forever. She was going to finish it off and move on to the next world, possibly arriving at Innistrad in time. I don't see how directing the inevitable is as bad as people claim.
This is only true if this was the trolley problem, which, while we have no definite proof for, seems to be not the case judging from the various hints. It appears possible, if not likely, that the Eldrazi don't just go to any random plane, but seek out planes with special characteristics. Both Zendikar and Innistrad had to be altered in order to lure the Eldrazi there. If it is true that Eldrazi only go after injured/dying planes (and again this seems to be the case, considering the hints we got. Just reread the "conversation" Jace had with Emrakul) then this isn't a trolley problem at all. Rather, it is more akin to siccing a flock of vultures onto a healthy animal rather than letting them feast on a dying or already dead one.
Thanks for the feedback. I know I am very, very unfair to judge based on spoiler snippets alone, but if what I see in spoilers just doesn't appeal to me at all, I can't be bothered to read the full story to see the actual description.
And in Bolas' case, it wasn't Ugin that gave me the "sob story" impression; it's Merrevia Sal. Basically from what little I bothered to read, she simply exists as an excuse to give Bolas some sympathetic motives, but the relative suddenness of her introduction (about as sudden as the reveal that Ugin is now Bolas' twin instead of a random someone), then being topped off by her sudden removal from the lore, makes it look more like a pathetic attempt by Wizards to fish for sympathy, and that's where they rub me off the very, very wrong way.
You see, this is actually a fascinating point you're making, because the idea that "Merevia Sal's death is just an excuse for something else" is quite literally a plot point in the story.
Has anyone pointed out how Wizards messed up Sarkhan's visuals?
He is supposed to be the pre-Tarkir block version in both cases (as claimed by creative), yet he distinctly has the Sarkhan Unbroken appearance: green-scaled shoulder (that could have been hidden, for what we know), but also the silvery-gray streak in his hair that he got *onscreen* from activating the hedron fragment to heal Ugin.
Or is he the "non-Sarkhan" who existed in this timeline until the moment the true Sarkhan reemerged from the past?
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I'll always maintain that Nahiri was justified. I'll never understand how someone wronged in every way, that directed inevitable suffering to a source that would deliver due justice is a villain. I'm glad she sent Emrakul to Innistrad. I would NEVER have risked my own home world, or basically surrendered my spark as an Oldwalker to remain shackled to a prison for unfathomable alien monsters threatening to consume everything. Nahiri did both. And she almost got imprisoned for eternity for it. She's done as an Oldwalker. Her best days are over. Most of her world is a desiccated husk in spite of all her sacrifices. Its people slaughtered. If she hadn't done what she did, Zendikar would have ended, as far as she knew. And a new unsuspecting plane would fall next. Sorin is lucky she didn't dodgeball his face with the Immortal Sun, toss Bolas in the mix and set off a Phyrexian Oil bath bomb in the ruins of Markov Manor's once-finest tub with Ulamog and Kozilek on RSVP. Screw that.
Speaking of Eldrazi. It's crazy to think how Bolas and Ugin go from fearful of arrows and sorcery to literally dealing with Eldrazi Titans one day. I wish we had a some sinister reason for their release other than "planeswalkers." Although I will say, I suspect Bolas is taking advantage of humans liking to work together for a common goal, allowing the Gatewatch and other PWs to amass, so he can trap them all on Ravnica. I wonder if his intention is to trap them there until they're all either slaughtered outright by Eternals or trapped long enough to die anyway. It's a good idea, getting rid of all your opponents in one swoop. Gather the opposition, seal them away.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I'm leaving this excerpt here and I would like someone to convince me that she was just a hapless victim.
"And what gives us the right?" Nahiri asked again. "Yes, fine, risk one world to save the others. If we can stop these Eldrazi, maybe…maybe that means we have to. But what gives us the right to choose which world must bear the burden?"
"What alternative is there?" asked Sorin. "Shall we take a referendum?"
"That is why I chose Zendikar," said Ugin quietly. "Because it does have a protector, someone who has already chosen to take its destiny into her hands. Someone who will do the right thing."
"And if I refuse?" asked Nahiri. "Will you 'convince' me by force?"
"No," said Ugin. "Because I also need your help."
In my alternate magic universe I wish I could live in, Nahiri would have been just been a mysterious legend rather than a woman who attempted to nuke millions of people cuz they happened to live on the same plane as someone who 'wronged' her.
Gaze upon an empty, white throne
A legacy of lies,
A familiar disguise
Sing with me a song of conquest and fate
The black pillar cracks beneath its weight
Night breaks through the day, hard as a stone
Lost in thoughts all alone
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
On the Magic stream today they announced Vivien will be given a three part story written by Cassandra Khaw. While I'm slowly turning cold to her, I glad we get a story and not a Tamiyo/Tibalt/Kenrith Twins/Gobal Series Walkers things again where we just get a back ground bio and that is it.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
While her motives for wanting revenge on Sorin and her feeling that he betrayed her are more than justified, that does nothing to justify taking it out on another world. Just like Bolas, her motivations are more complex and interesting than those of a generic doomsday villain (and she is definitely not just a woman scorn, don't even know how people get this idea), but that doesn't mean that she had any right to do what she did to Innistrad. It doesn't even make her particularly sympathetic in my opinion. It was all a personal vendetta against Sorin, which she could have enacted by trapping him like she ultimately did and if really necessary destroying Markov Manor (that she already killed innocent Jenrik as collateral damage should be troubling enough even if you think killing all these vampires wasn't uncalled for). Calling Emrakul though and commiting the whole plane to mutations and madness was just too much and makes her kind of a hypocrite to boot. You can't revenge an awful act (like leaving Zendikar to the Eldrazi and entrapping Nahiri in the Helvault) with an even worse act (deliberately causing mass death and destruction yourself via Emrakul).
So yeah, tldr; It's good that both Bolas and Nahiri have rather complex motivations, but that doesn't make them sympathetic (or worse, right), just slightly more relatable.
While I don't fully agree with what you said (not because I think you're wrong, but only because I have lost interest in discussing too much about it), sympathy for characters is something Wizards have really screwed up about when it comes to characterizing.
I know I sound confusing, but between Angrath and Bolas in M19, I kinda get the feeling that Wizards think that for any character to be likeable to fans, they must have some sort of sob story background to fish for sympathy. I mean like, ugh, did they really have to decide that Angrath had family back home and that he had not seen them for fourteen. frikkin. years? And now, it almost seems to me that they give some teary excuses to make Bolas "not-too-vile" by giving him family that he used to care about (I only read the spoilers, but that alone is enough to make me puke...). I mean, really?
Wizards, please. You have BADLY disappointed me by failing HORRIBLY in making ancient characters that actually do feel ancient, and now you think that a character can never be liked by fans if they don't have these so-called TRAGIC history. Please. One lesson you MUST understand, Wizards, is that a character does NOT need excessively melodramatic past to be likeable, and doing this to BOLAS of all people just pretty much ruins my interest in Magic story anymore....... So if you're still a fan of these sob stories, stop.
@Perkunas: I think Elder Dragons (i.e. dragons born directly from the Ur-Dragon in the distant past) are still inherently more powerful because minor dragons are also mentioned in the story. Bolas and Ugin are a special case because they're two (sentient) halves of what would've usually been one Elder Dragon. The others - Chromium, Palladia-Mors etc. - already seemed pretty powerful to me right from the start. WotC has been mkre liberal with the un-retired Elder type since Tarkir, it now usually just signifies very old and powerful beings, but not in the same vein as the original Elder Dragons.
You have a very twisted sense of justice. :\
I don’t think I have to explain how appreciating how a particular character is written does not equate to admiration of that actual character. But I grudgingly - and very grudgingly - see how my earlier post could be misconstrued as admiration for Nicol Bolas. I think I see where we’re disconnecting, so I’ll lay out my thoughts so I am hopefully more clear.
For the record:
1.) Though Bolas is certainly a self-obsessed brat from very early on, his most monstrous act in the first four chapters is making one man in Arcades’s kingdom kill his twin—neither of those men were any threat to him, nor involved in killing dragons in any way. By contrast, however, nothing he does in Chapter 4 strikes me as particularly atrocious or disproportional from a dragon's-eye view. Ruthless, yes. Harsh, yes. But not wantonly so. That’s not to say I’m cheering him on — I just find his way of thinking, his mistrust and desire to put these dragon-slaying humans in their place, easy to understand at that point in the story.
2.) If my comments on Bolas’s presentation have seemed glowing, I’ll provide some context: I’ve had a tumultuous relationship with Bolas as a character these past ten years. For almost nine of those years, I loathed how he was presented. I considered him a lame, boring, cartoonish villain who only impressed kids because “Wow, he’s a dragon! Isn’t that cool?” I hated his pointless villainy, his being evil just for the sake of being evil, and I hated how he was forced down our throats. And I hated his inexplicable (to me) popularity despite it all. I couldn’t wait for him to just die so that maybe we might see interesting new threats who didn’t feel like they were written by a fifth grader.
Then Amonkhet Block happened. Specifically, Hour of Devastation. I was originally irked that my long-awaited Egyptian Block was really just Bolas World, and it made me hate him even more. I didn’t buy a single pack of Amonkhet because that stupid ***ing dragon being at the center of it ruined the world for me at the time, and I wanted no part of it (That’s literally how much I hated him — I didn’t even buy packs from a set whose flavor centered on his character). But for some reason - I don’t even remember why now — I ended up reading a few of the fictions. And the Hour of Devastation story honestly terrified me. As someone who grew up quite religious, it hit all my worst possible nightmares (and while I know that story was bitter, emotional, and tragic for many, I think it takes someone with a religious background to fully appreciate the sheer existential horror of Hour of Devastation). In the space of that one arc, I realized that Bolas could be terrifying after all. He could be, dare I admit it, a well-written, frightening villain. Suddenly, I was interested in seeing how his story played out, and how the Gatewatch would finally beat him.
Enter Core 2019. Here we’re finally delving into Bolas’s formative years and what makes him tick. And it’s such a relief to me to see that while yes, he’s been a despicable, evil creature all along, the roots of his evil make sense. They are fitting. They are interesting and add flesh to his character. And glimpsing his insecurities and the fact that he occasionally has relatable emotions, and importantly, that he did have some emotional need for another being at one point—these are all excellent because they bring humanity to his evil. Seeing him NOT being the biggest bad boy around for once, and having to rely purely on his wits and deceptions to escape from far more powerful adversaries – in short, seeing the vulnerable, insecure, fearful worm from which he arose - makes me fascinated to see how his tale plays out, and ultimately ends.
I’ve never done a complete 180 on a fictional character like I have with Nicol Bolas. In the last year, Dragon Satan has gone from the thing I hated most about Magic to a compelling character in his own right and the character whose conclusion I’m most interested in seeing. It just goes to show how much a difference having the right authors can make. Watching a character I considered an utter cancer on the MTG story successfully transformed into one of its most well-written and interesting personalities has reinvigorated my enthusiasm for the current MTG story. It's a monumental feat of characterization. Yes, I celebrate it.
So I don't want to veer the discussion more off topic, and if we want to discuss it more we could start a new thread. But I think that people forget that noble and selfless actions do not always correlate with good consequences. Nahiri made a choice with the other two to trap the Eldrazi on Zendikar. Ugin flat out said they were unable to do it without her. I think that people also far-far overdo it when it comes to Sorin's responsibility with the Eldrazi's escape. He was activly seeking a solution to their escape. The original gatewatch with the exception of Gideon had more to do with them being set free than Sorin does. Nicol Bolas has more to answer for when it comes to the Eldrazi than Sorin does. Should Vryn and Kaledesh suffer? The only crime that I think Sorin purposefully commited was traping Nahiri in the Helvault (well as far as Nahiri and Zendikar are considered).
The putting Innistrad out of its misery argument is also super flawed. Innistrad was on the mend. Arguably Nahiri made it worse than it was in Dark Ascension.
Gaze upon an empty, white throne
A legacy of lies,
A familiar disguise
Sing with me a song of conquest and fate
The black pillar cracks beneath its weight
Night breaks through the day, hard as a stone
Lost in thoughts all alone
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
She is also probably not the most mentally sane Oldwalker, she spent her time sitting on plane with no other immortals (besides the Eldrazi) and then spent more time in a prison surrounded by Demons. Compare to Sorin who on a plane with quite a few characters as old as him him or close to it or any of the Domanarians. Sure you may hate being able to interact with those similar to you has to help the psyche, watching everyone you know die all the time has got to have negative impact for more social species.
ON TOPIC:
Intereting that Ugin is possibly the first planeswalker?
Interesting that Bolas need to use deception and manipulation to make up for his apparent weakness of physical strength compared to other dragons, and that this mental manipulation is seemingly the reason for the Elder Dragon Wars
Not sure if Ugin or Bolas was influencing Jins story or if he was subconsciously tailoriing it to be a little more Pro-Dragon so a not to enrage Atarka and keep her satisfied becaus if he staring telling of the terribleness of Bolas's actions instead of grandizing them she may have just bit him in half.
Three episodes left to see what happens at Ugins grave and how Bolas sparks.
Well, Tae Jin specifically says that it wasn't the story he was trying to tell (he was going to tell Atarka about the summit with Shu Yun, where Shu ultimately surrendered the Jeskai to Ojutai);
This leads one to believe that someone was manipulating/influencing him to tell a different story (and all the Bolas aggrandizing certainly doesn't sound very Ugin-y).
The golden flash of light isn't actually consistent with the described effect of Bolas planeswalking in the Hour of Devastation story (there, it was described almost like a black void being ripped in reality), but this definitely has the feel of a really big planeswalker appearing in the sky and then descending to earth. And in a story where Bolas is described as "the Second Sun"...well, it would fit.
Why Bolas would take the time to tell his side of the story with someone else's voice, I don't know, but that definitely felt like what was going on to me.
Very astute and interesting
I had simply taken it to be Atarka. She does sneak up on them (How exactly does a massive dragon with glowing antlers "sneak" up on anyone/thing?) in short order afterwards.
Thanks for the feedback. I know I am very, very unfair to judge based on spoiler snippets alone, but if what I see in spoilers just doesn't appeal to me at all, I can't be bothered to read the full story to see the actual description.
And in Bolas' case, it wasn't Ugin that gave me the "sob story" impression; it's Merrevia Sal. Basically from what little I bothered to read, she simply exists as an excuse to give Bolas some sympathetic motives, but the relative suddenness of her introduction (about as sudden as the reveal that Ugin is now Bolas' twin instead of a random someone), then being topped off by her sudden removal from the lore, makes it look more like a pathetic attempt by Wizards to fish for sympathy, and that's where they rub me off the very, very wrong way.
(sidenote: I find it hilarious that we can chop off three letters from sympathetic to get pathetic. Pretty fitting in this situation :XD:)
This is only true if this was the trolley problem, which, while we have no definite proof for, seems to be not the case judging from the various hints. It appears possible, if not likely, that the Eldrazi don't just go to any random plane, but seek out planes with special characteristics. Both Zendikar and Innistrad had to be altered in order to lure the Eldrazi there. If it is true that Eldrazi only go after injured/dying planes (and again this seems to be the case, considering the hints we got. Just reread the "conversation" Jace had with Emrakul) then this isn't a trolley problem at all. Rather, it is more akin to siccing a flock of vultures onto a healthy animal rather than letting them feast on a dying or already dead one.
You see, this is actually a fascinating point you're making, because the idea that "Merevia Sal's death is just an excuse for something else" is quite literally a plot point in the story.
He is supposed to be the pre-Tarkir block version in both cases (as claimed by creative), yet he distinctly has the Sarkhan Unbroken appearance: green-scaled shoulder (that could have been hidden, for what we know), but also the silvery-gray streak in his hair that he got *onscreen* from activating the hedron fragment to heal Ugin.
Or is he the "non-Sarkhan" who existed in this timeline until the moment the true Sarkhan reemerged from the past?
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)