I wonder how Vivien "got touched" by Bolas's machinations. She's a green walker who hates civilization and industry, so I can see her being a mono-green villainess.
Also what is Bolas doing (presumably to Amonkhet) in Patient Rebuilding?
Yes, but what is he rebuilding it into? Did he decide to make Amonkhet a permanent home base?
Could be that him in the past building Amonkhet after he took over.
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^^^^
I think this....
(the rebuilding in his image of the original Amonkhet)
Agreed that this is most likely.
You'll notice that there's no horns monument in the top half of the art (where he's reconstructing the buildings) but it's present in the reflection of the rebuilt city.
The flavor text also seems to be in past-tense (yes it's possibly ambiguous, but it reads better as past-tense than future tense).
I hope the story leads to the extinction of dragons on Tarkir, or they had to go back into hiding. It was exceedingly irking to watch them destroy the history and culture of Abzan, Jeskai, and Temur like some colonizers.
I hope the story leads to the extinction of dragons on Tarkir, or they had to go back into hiding. It was exceedingly irking to watch them destroy the history and culture of Abzan, Jeskai, and Temur like some colonizers.
Apparently dragons can do it and get away with it while still being considered by WOTC good guys, while some vampires conquistadores cannot...
I hope the story leads to the extinction of dragons on Tarkir, or they had to go back into hiding. It was exceedingly irking to watch them destroy the history and culture of Abzan, Jeskai, and Temur like some colonizers.
Apparently dragons can do it and get away with it while still being considered by WOTC good guys, while some vampires conquistadores cannot...
Eh well they are Vampire "Conquistadors" they are not going to be the good guys but Elenda wasn't bad...still I am more annoyed we lost the wedge color plane then anything else quite frankly. We already have a default color pair world in Ravnica. I want to go back to Alara and enjoyed Tarkir.
I hope the story leads to the extinction of dragons on Tarkir, or they had to go back into hiding. It was exceedingly irking to watch them destroy the history and culture of Abzan, Jeskai, and Temur like some colonizers.
Apparently dragons can do it and get away with it while still being considered by WOTC good guys, while some vampires conquistadores cannot...
How were the dragons good guys on Tarkir?
Ojutai killed off all ghostfire warriors and did an Orwellian retcon of the world's history.
Atarkha holds the threat of death over the clans that once were Temur so that they provide her and her brood with hard earned food.
Dromoka almost annihilated the Abzan without explanation and only stopped when they agreed to abandon their traditions and ancestors.
Silumgar misled Tasigur (leading to the decimation of the khans) and has to be almost constantly appeased by his followers lest he kill his subjects in fits of paranoia.
Really, only Kologhan started off rather 'good,' but is still mentioned as having come to use random violence and cruelty to keep her clan in line.
I suppose one could call present day Dromoka and Ojutai's broods to be decently nice places to live (provided you don't break particular decrees, mind you). Still puts the majority of the dragons firmly in the not-good category at any given time.
I hope the story leads to the extinction of dragons on Tarkir, or they had to go back into hiding. It was exceedingly irking to watch them destroy the history and culture of Abzan, Jeskai, and Temur like some colonizers.
Apparently dragons can do it and get away with it while still being considered by WOTC good guys, while some vampires conquistadores cannot...
How were the dragons good guys on Tarkir?
Ojutai killed off all ghostfire warriors and did an Orwellian retcon of the world's history.
Atarkha holds the threat of death over the clans that once were Temur so that they provide her and her brood with hard earned food.
Dromoka almost annihilated the Abzan without explanation and only stopped when they agreed to abandon their traditions and ancestors.
Silumgar misled Tasigur (leading to the decimation of the khans) and has to be almost constantly appeased by his followers lest he kill his subjects in fits of paranoia.
Really, only Kologhan started off rather 'good,' but is still mentioned as having come to use random violence and cruelty to keep her clan in line.
I suppose one could call present day Dromoka and Ojutai's broods to be decently nice places to live (provided you don't break particular decrees, mind you). Still puts the majority of the dragons firmly in the not-good category at any given time.
I suspect Firebead was being sarcastic, but Tarkir dragons earned quite a few supporters even from this forum. When I voiced my dismay towards the dragons being tyrants, many people jumped out and claimed that "You can't presume they think like human!" "Necromancy is indeed wrong!" etc.
What these people seemed to have ignored was that despite "Dragonlords" were not human, they were very much written by human hands and their strategies echoed that of human dictators and tyrants; erasing of history, killing historians and powerful figures, subjecting the natives to second-class citizenship, etc. Hell, only very recently Belzy attempted to rewrite the history of Dominaria and was branded a villain, yet to some it's ok for Tarkir dragons to do it.
After the dragons "saved" their respective clan they immediately jumped back to war against one another, repeated what the humans were doing all along. Some people really should understand that being powerful and ageless doesn't make one wiser, sometimes it makes one worse, because s/he is given pardonto hypocrisy.
Yeah well Belzenlok went up against Iconic Characters...no Older Magic Fan is rooting for some retcon no name like Belzenlok over Teferi, Karn, Jhoira and Jaya no way no how. Just like newer fans love their Gatewatch and wont root for him over Lili, Gideon and Chandra. Generalizations Aside.
The main point is the framing...we saw Tarkir through the eyes of Sarkhan ergo he thinks dragons back is good so most of the audience goes with him. Doesn't hurt the Dragons die out thanks to Bolas "killing" Ugin. Meanwhile Belzenlok was never presented as in the right and even if he was he is still going up against 8 characters that most of the audience is bound to like more. Doesn't help Belzenlok that Lili's Demons have been a major joke.
IIRC the idea of Tarkir was the Stereotypical time travel story where the traveler messes up the future and makes thing worse then before, the twist being since this all from Sarkhan POV the future is great for him. No from creative I think has said the dragons are the good guys.
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():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
IIRC the idea of Tarkir was the Stereotypical time travel story where the traveler messes up the future and makes thing worse then before, the twist being since this all from Sarkhan POV the future is great for him. No from creative I think has said the dragons are the good guys.
Well that is true but also I think having Ugin back is a net positive for the Multiverse. A shame that the local populations on Tarkir gets a raw deal but the needs of the Many Outweigh The Needs of Few. I want Ugin around for Bolas and the threats that come next. Also a matter of the fact that the little people don't matter, this story ain't about a plucking gang of upstarts like the Original Weatherlight Crew...its about Planeswalkers, normals on the planes don't factor in as anything besides cannon fodder unless they are a close friend or relative of a Walker.
I'll also go on record as strongly preferring Tarkir with Khans to Tarkir with Dragons. Humans/humanoids turn out to be more interesting than giant, superpowered monsters that mostly just rule through strength. Also, wedges are WAY more interesting than allied color-pairs.
IIRC the idea of Tarkir was the Stereotypical time travel story where the traveler messes up the future and makes thing worse then before, the twist being since this all from Sarkhan POV the future is great for him. No from creative I think has said the dragons are the good guys.
I expected most readers would know that whoever helms the POV of a story isn't always the good guy or see things clearly, but popular presentation at the time seemed to went against the obvious.
Sarkhan had always wanted dragons to rule over humanity for reason unexplained, and given that his quote on Pinion Feast, I doubt he knows what dragons truly are: They're not above nature, and there's no tragedy in survival of the fittest. He's just a pokemon child who's sad to see his favorite animal dies.
IIRC the idea of Tarkir was the Stereotypical time travel story where the traveler messes up the future and makes thing worse then before, the twist being since this all from Sarkhan POV the future is great for him. No from creative I think has said the dragons are the good guys.
I expected most readers would know that whoever helms the POV of a story isn't always the good guy or see things clearly, but popular presentation at the time seemed to went against the obvious.
Sarkhan had always wanted dragons to rule over humanity for reason unexplained, and given that his quote on Pinion Feast, I doubt he knows what dragons truly are: They're not above nature, and there's no tragedy in survival of the fittest. He's just a pokemon child who's sad to see his favorite animal dies.
What I took away from the whole story of Tarkir is that both timelines were catastrophic for Tarkir in the end: Dragons being totally eradicated didn't help the plane (it's implied that the constant warfare is slowly but surely destroying the Khan civilisations, though it could have been stated more clearly) and was to some degree a tragedy, while the opposite of dragons ruling tyrannically over the rest of the population is equally bad. Ugin always wanted to maintain a balance between his progeny and the rest of the Tarkir population, perhabs with the ultimate goal of dragons and others living peacefully together. Bolas ultimately destroyed that possibility in either timeline by killing him/putting him in a coma. Perhabs the story of Return to Tarkir will be about finally restoring this balance.
Also what is Bolas doing (presumably to Amonkhet) in Patient Rebuilding?
This one's very simple: Bolas killed her home plane.
The answer may shock you, but he's rebuilding it.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Oh, now I see. So she's another Samut from a motivation point of view (kinda).
Yes, but what is he rebuilding it into? Did he decide to make Amonkhet a permanent home base?
Could be that him in the past building Amonkhet after he took over.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I think this....
(the rebuilding in his image of the original Amonkhet)
Agreed that this is most likely.
You'll notice that there's no horns monument in the top half of the art (where he's reconstructing the buildings) but it's present in the reflection of the rebuilt city.
The flavor text also seems to be in past-tense (yes it's possibly ambiguous, but it reads better as past-tense than future tense).
I bet Ajani recruits Vivian and Sarkhan.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
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Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Apparently dragons can do it and get away with it while still being considered by WOTC good guys, while some vampires conquistadores cannot...
Eh well they are Vampire "Conquistadors" they are not going to be the good guys but Elenda wasn't bad...still I am more annoyed we lost the wedge color plane then anything else quite frankly. We already have a default color pair world in Ravnica. I want to go back to Alara and enjoyed Tarkir.
Ugin is not dying though so dragon extinction.
How were the dragons good guys on Tarkir?
Ojutai killed off all ghostfire warriors and did an Orwellian retcon of the world's history.
Atarkha holds the threat of death over the clans that once were Temur so that they provide her and her brood with hard earned food.
Dromoka almost annihilated the Abzan without explanation and only stopped when they agreed to abandon their traditions and ancestors.
Silumgar misled Tasigur (leading to the decimation of the khans) and has to be almost constantly appeased by his followers lest he kill his subjects in fits of paranoia.
Really, only Kologhan started off rather 'good,' but is still mentioned as having come to use random violence and cruelty to keep her clan in line.
I suppose one could call present day Dromoka and Ojutai's broods to be decently nice places to live (provided you don't break particular decrees, mind you). Still puts the majority of the dragons firmly in the not-good category at any given time.
I suspect Firebead was being sarcastic, but Tarkir dragons earned quite a few supporters even from this forum. When I voiced my dismay towards the dragons being tyrants, many people jumped out and claimed that "You can't presume they think like human!" "Necromancy is indeed wrong!" etc.
What these people seemed to have ignored was that despite "Dragonlords" were not human, they were very much written by human hands and their strategies echoed that of human dictators and tyrants; erasing of history, killing historians and powerful figures, subjecting the natives to second-class citizenship, etc. Hell, only very recently Belzy attempted to rewrite the history of Dominaria and was branded a villain, yet to some it's ok for Tarkir dragons to do it.
After the dragons "saved" their respective clan they immediately jumped back to war against one another, repeated what the humans were doing all along. Some people really should understand that being powerful and ageless doesn't make one wiser, sometimes it makes one worse, because s/he is given pardonto hypocrisy.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
The main point is the framing...we saw Tarkir through the eyes of Sarkhan ergo he thinks dragons back is good so most of the audience goes with him. Doesn't hurt the Dragons die out thanks to Bolas "killing" Ugin. Meanwhile Belzenlok was never presented as in the right and even if he was he is still going up against 8 characters that most of the audience is bound to like more. Doesn't help Belzenlok that Lili's Demons have been a major joke.
Oh and finally I guess Dragons are Cool.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Well that is true but also I think having Ugin back is a net positive for the Multiverse. A shame that the local populations on Tarkir gets a raw deal but the needs of the Many Outweigh The Needs of Few. I want Ugin around for Bolas and the threats that come next. Also a matter of the fact that the little people don't matter, this story ain't about a plucking gang of upstarts like the Original Weatherlight Crew...its about Planeswalkers, normals on the planes don't factor in as anything besides cannon fodder unless they are a close friend or relative of a Walker.
I'll also go on record as strongly preferring Tarkir with Khans to Tarkir with Dragons. Humans/humanoids turn out to be more interesting than giant, superpowered monsters that mostly just rule through strength. Also, wedges are WAY more interesting than allied color-pairs.
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I expected most readers would know that whoever helms the POV of a story isn't always the good guy or see things clearly, but popular presentation at the time seemed to went against the obvious.
Sarkhan had always wanted dragons to rule over humanity for reason unexplained, and given that his quote on Pinion Feast, I doubt he knows what dragons truly are: They're not above nature, and there's no tragedy in survival of the fittest. He's just a pokemon child who's sad to see his favorite animal dies.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
What I took away from the whole story of Tarkir is that both timelines were catastrophic for Tarkir in the end: Dragons being totally eradicated didn't help the plane (it's implied that the constant warfare is slowly but surely destroying the Khan civilisations, though it could have been stated more clearly) and was to some degree a tragedy, while the opposite of dragons ruling tyrannically over the rest of the population is equally bad. Ugin always wanted to maintain a balance between his progeny and the rest of the Tarkir population, perhabs with the ultimate goal of dragons and others living peacefully together. Bolas ultimately destroyed that possibility in either timeline by killing him/putting him in a coma. Perhabs the story of Return to Tarkir will be about finally restoring this balance.
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