Really ? Good, i've never liked the idea of summoning mere copies instead of the originals.
The old planeswalkers could sort of do that, it was -really really- rare to see them actually do it in the books though.
Elspeth did this all through Godsend, she made aether clones of soldiers and even a Archon.
What really? well I was wrong then.
That is really really stupid.
Kiora also did it in the story Drop for Drop. Here's the relevant quote:
Reaching out across the Blind Eternities, she gathered to her the essence of every sea-beast she had ever called her own. She pulled those essences to her one by one, manifested them in Theros's seas.
Actually, wasn't Kioras whole mission on Theros at that time to establish a connection to Arixmethes (the immense Kraken) so that she could summon an aether copy of him wherever she liked? I never liked the explanation that planeswalkers could summon the original creatures from other planes. It has so much moral baggage and you would have to constantly explain away all the logical difficulties that this causes, especially after it was clearly established that the mending made interplanar travel for organic beings which are not planeswalkers or Eldrazi deadly. Also,they are mostly summoned to fight, so if planeswalkers summon the originals, does that mean that the originals simply die if they lose? Wouldn't that cause enormous problems if thousands of people and creatures constantly vanish and never return? Are they mind-controlled into doing the planeswalkers bidding? If not, why don't they object, if so, how could the more morally upstanding planeswalkers ever deal with the moral problems of doing so? It just raises too many questions, which the "aether copy summoning" explanation doesn't.
Actually, wasn't Kioras whole mission on Theros at that time to establish a connection to Arixmethes (the immense Kraken) so that she could summon an aether copy of him wherever she liked? I never liked the explanation that planeswalkers could summon the original creatures from other planes. It has so much moral baggage and you would have to constantly explain away all the logical difficulties that this causes, especially after it was clearly established that the mending made interplanar travel for organic beings which are not planeswalkers or Eldrazi deadly. Also,they are mostly summoned to fight, so if planeswalkers summon the originals, does that mean that the originals simply die if they lose? Wouldn't that cause enormous problems if thousands of people and creatures constantly vanish and never return? Are they mind-controlled into doing the planeswalkers bidding? If not, why don't they object, if so, how could the more morally upstanding planeswalkers ever deal with the moral problems of doing so? It just raises too many questions, which the "aether copy summoning" explanation doesn't.
In the first Harper Prysm novels, this is exactly how magic worked. In the Greensleeves trlogy, the protagonists start a crusade against the wizards (not even planeswalkers!) who enslaved the mind of the people and later used them as cannon fodder, basically.
Also, in the background of Homelands expansion, the original ruling tribe of the goblins was wiped out when a Planeswalkers summoned them and they never returned, presumably because they died.
The "aether copy summoning" thing lack in epicness, it's like wearing counterfeit products. Or making a movie and lowering the budget. In the end, you can still imagine you will summon mere copies but i'll consider my creatures are the real deal
Eh its always been one of the weird point between game play and flavor thats never lined up with the game 100% (like how wurms can use Sword of Body and Mind), do your own head canon when you play your game (I certainly do) but for the current storyline they make aether clones. Also to note the "beast tamers" walkers can summon the real creatures when they are on the same plane as seen with Kiora summoning the real Lorthos on Zendikar to fight Kozilek.
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"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Elspeth did this all through Godsend, she made aether clones of soldiers and even a Archon.
What really? well I was wrong then.
That is really really stupid.
Kiora also did it in the story Drop for Drop. Here's the relevant quote:
Reaching out across the Blind Eternities, she gathered to her the essence of every sea-beast she had ever called her own. She pulled those essences to her one by one, manifested them in Theros's seas.
Actually, wasn't Kioras whole mission on Theros at that time to establish a connection to Arixmethes (the immense Kraken) so that she could summon an aether copy of him wherever she liked? I never liked the explanation that planeswalkers could summon the original creatures from other planes. It has so much moral baggage and you would have to constantly explain away all the logical difficulties that this causes, especially after it was clearly established that the mending made interplanar travel for organic beings which are not planeswalkers or Eldrazi deadly. Also,they are mostly summoned to fight, so if planeswalkers summon the originals, does that mean that the originals simply die if they lose? Wouldn't that cause enormous problems if thousands of people and creatures constantly vanish and never return? Are they mind-controlled into doing the planeswalkers bidding? If not, why don't they object, if so, how could the more morally upstanding planeswalkers ever deal with the moral problems of doing so? It just raises too many questions, which the "aether copy summoning" explanation doesn't.
Most problems can be easily solved by considering you summon creatures from a specific period in a timeline amongst an infinity of timelines; if theses creatures die, they still exist in other timelines so there is no shortage. Simple.
The other logical difficulties can be justified precisely because we have very few informations on the details of players fights. So, many questions are raised but twice as many responses can be raised too.
Also, you're way too focused on the moral stuff, for me, a planeswalker with morals can make a pact with mutual consent with a creature and that's all.
If the creature is interested, good.
If the creature is not even a sentient being or not interested, the moralist planeswalker deal with it and don't bind the creature.
So why someone would willingly accept to be bounded to the will of a demigod in order to be summoned and sacrificed against monstrosities who did nothing to you and to whom you'd prefer not do anything ?
We can work our imagination, there's plenty of room : honor stuff, oath affair, fight for the good cause, etc
(of course, there is no need to make all theses justifications if you're an immoral planeswalker, for you just have to bind creatures against their will)
The "aether copy summoning" thing lack in epicness, it's like wearing counterfeit products. Or making a movie and lowering the budget. In the end, you can still imagine you will summon mere copies but i'll consider my creatures are the real deal
I guess in the end everything depends on personal preference... when it comes to imagining it for the game. Storywise though it's clear that aether duplicate summoning is the way these things go (at least when it comes to summoning beings from another plane). This is just a matter of plot consistency at this point. Also I reject the alternate timeline idea, not only because it leads to even further questions (since for example such breaches into different timelines were seen as a sign of the multiversal apocalypse in Planar Chaos), but also because it is nearly exactly as "boring" as simply cloning the creature via aether. Either way it's not the real deal from your time stream and for all intents and purposes the aether clone might vary less from the original than an alternate timeline counterpart which could have had different experiences and be totally different. In my opinion connecting to a creature/sentient being in such a way that you are able to duplicate them and their feats for a short time is very impressive anyway.
In regards to the Weatherlight: I can't believe that they would build up this new team and then leave them on Dominaria for at least a few years after only a few stories with them. It might not happen in Dominaria or even before the final confrontation with Bolas, but New Phyrexia is rising and what better way to fight them off than with the same ship with which their older counterpart was defeated. Sooner or later it will get its planeswalking power back somehow (mirroring Teferi now that I think about it).
It doesn't even make sense from the perspective of players not familiar with the story: you can put cards from two different planes in your deck in every format that exists, but in the story those two characters can never actually meet unless they are planeswalkers. In game, Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain can fight The Scarab God, but in story they cannot. How does that make sense? Plus, New Phyrexia is one of if not the most iconic villains in the minds of the players, but as long as Creative insists on planeswalkers being the only ones who can planeswalk then that plot is dead in the water. I don't understand why they do this to themselves.
MTG gameplay sometimes hasn't made storyline sense ever since the beginning, I'm not worried about it and I don't try to explain around it. From the original rulebook:
Q: Can my opponent do something that doesn't make sense, such as casting both Holy Strength and Unholy Strength on his Air Elemental?
A: Yes, these effects are magical, after all.
I don't know if it's off topic, but why on new Jhoira flavor text it's written "As she took the wheel of the Weatherlight for the first time in a millennium, Jhoira knew she'd been right to restore the ship"? Didn't the phyrexian invasion happened like 300 years ago?
Jhiora wasn't captian of the Weatherlight 300 years ago during the phyrexian invasion. She was the first captain, Sisay the captain at the time of the invasion was like the 6th or something. It actually being a millennium since she last captained the weatherlight is debatable but mostly pointless as almost no one would like it if they said "As she took the wheel of the Weatherlight for the first time in a 861 years, Jhoira knew she'd been right to restore the ship"
Maybe the staff at WoTC are keeping the planeshifting ability in reserve as a hook for the next stories. If they did everything now, there would be less to tell in the next blocks. Perhaps a special item is needed to unlock the ability again as mentioned by people in previous pages.. the immortal sun or a mini planar bridge? Who knows. WoTC probably would make the new crew still do some work to get the Weatherlight planeshifting again.
I am sorry I fail to see why Jace would be more useful on the Weatherlight then especially Karn or Teferi. You know two people who actually worked under Urza. Jace is no Artificer.
I think he could be one if he wanted to, considering he made several simple tools and a raft himself when he was stranded on Useless Island.
That is generic Blue Mage stuff. Making some simple tools and raft doesn't make one the roughly equivalent of a PhD in Mechanical Engineering.
I expect any sufficiently smart person with free time to be able to cobble that stuff together.
Jace contributing anything to the Weatherlight is full on Mary Sue or Gary Stu if you ask me.
Also you didn't answer how he be better at it then Karn or Teferi?
Jace is a planeswalker and part of the Gatewatch. I think WoTC would have him eventually involved in the weatherlight to contribute something.. well, maybe not with the technical things in the ship. He could just be one more man there to help fight the bad guys.
Actually, wasn't Kioras whole mission on Theros at that time to establish a connection to Arixmethes (the immense Kraken) so that she could summon an aether copy of him wherever she liked? I never liked the explanation that planeswalkers could summon the original creatures from other planes. It has so much moral baggage and you would have to constantly explain away all the logical difficulties that this causes, especially after it was clearly established that the mending made interplanar travel for organic beings which are not planeswalkers or Eldrazi deadly. Also,they are mostly summoned to fight, so if planeswalkers summon the originals, does that mean that the originals simply die if they lose? Wouldn't that cause enormous problems if thousands of people and creatures constantly vanish and never return? Are they mind-controlled into doing the planeswalkers bidding? If not, why don't they object, if so, how could the more morally upstanding planeswalkers ever deal with the moral problems of doing so? It just raises too many questions, which the "aether copy summoning" explanation doesn't.
In the first Harper Prysm novels, this is exactly how magic worked. In the Greensleeves trlogy, the protagonists start a crusade against the wizards (not even planeswalkers!) who enslaved the mind of the people and later used them as cannon fodder, basically.
Also, in the background of Homelands expansion, the original ruling tribe of the goblins was wiped out when a Planeswalkers summoned them and they never returned, presumably because they died.
Eh its always been one of the weird point between game play and flavor thats never lined up with the game 100% (like how wurms can use Sword of Body and Mind), do your own head canon when you play your game (I certainly do) but for the current storyline they make aether clones. Also to note the "beast tamers" walkers can summon the real creatures when they are on the same plane as seen with Kiora summoning the real Lorthos on Zendikar to fight Kozilek.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I guess in the end everything depends on personal preference... when it comes to imagining it for the game. Storywise though it's clear that aether duplicate summoning is the way these things go (at least when it comes to summoning beings from another plane). This is just a matter of plot consistency at this point. Also I reject the alternate timeline idea, not only because it leads to even further questions (since for example such breaches into different timelines were seen as a sign of the multiversal apocalypse in Planar Chaos), but also because it is nearly exactly as "boring" as simply cloning the creature via aether. Either way it's not the real deal from your time stream and for all intents and purposes the aether clone might vary less from the original than an alternate timeline counterpart which could have had different experiences and be totally different. In my opinion connecting to a creature/sentient being in such a way that you are able to duplicate them and their feats for a short time is very impressive anyway.
In regards to the Weatherlight: I can't believe that they would build up this new team and then leave them on Dominaria for at least a few years after only a few stories with them. It might not happen in Dominaria or even before the final confrontation with Bolas, but New Phyrexia is rising and what better way to fight them off than with the same ship with which their older counterpart was defeated. Sooner or later it will get its planeswalking power back somehow (mirroring Teferi now that I think about it).
MTG gameplay sometimes hasn't made storyline sense ever since the beginning, I'm not worried about it and I don't try to explain around it. From the original rulebook:
Q: Can my opponent do something that doesn't make sense, such as casting both Holy Strength and Unholy Strength on his Air Elemental?
A: Yes, these effects are magical, after all.
Vintage: Dredge | Legacy: Burn, Goblins, Soldier | Standard: Mono-Red Aggro
Commander: Nicol Bolas, Sliver Overlord, Rafiq
Casual: Selesnya Saproling Smackdown, Izzet Labs, Rebel
Played since June 2004, mostly inactive June 2011 to March 2018
Other usernames include AlanFromRochester, homerthebeerbaron
MTG checklists from Alpha to Ravnica Allegiance - https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/other-magic-products/third-party-products/805324-checklists-for-everything-from-alpha-to-ravnica
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
http://www.wizards.com/magic/expert/invasion/magicinvasion/invasion_storybook.asp
Maybe someday the new Weatherlight can do it too.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Even in that short comic, the intensity and awesomeness surpasses the whole Gatewatch adventure.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Oh, and the old weatherlight looks strong enough for one of Urza's titan suits to hitch a ride.
http://www.wizards.com/magic/expert/invasion/magicinvasion/planeshift_storybook.asp
Jace is a planeswalker and part of the Gatewatch. I think WoTC would have him eventually involved in the weatherlight to contribute something.. well, maybe not with the technical things in the ship. He could just be one more man there to help fight the bad guys.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread