Heliod - he destroyed Godsend while killing Elspeth, further evidence of having the natural order of Theros in mind when he did.
His version of order, not the natural order. That's an important caveat, and is often how white goes villainous.
which was more of an issue with Konda than it was with Heliod. He could have used Godsend to forcibly become king of the gods, but destroyed it instead. He seems to desire authority through devotion, which is the natural order of Theros.
I feel bad for Nahiri and IDK to what extent she is a villain. Someone had to suffer under Emrakul. Might as well hit two birds with one stone by making Sorin and his world suffer the way hers had, instead. Ugin and Sorin did the same to Zendikar for the exact same reason, let alone trapping her there despite being a PW.
You probably saw this coming from me, an Eldrazi empathizer, but I don't see "someone had to suffer under Emrakul" as a justifiable reason in any way after the way the oldwalkers have been moving them around like house-destroying skunks. Emrakul has already established there is an order to which the Eldrazi do things (in fairness though it could be just Ulamog just wants to eat and the rest have to clean up afterwards for all we know) and everything we've been shown up to this point is where planeswalkers want them to be.
I don't see how that "someone" (who has to be suffer under Emrakul) is chosen by planeswalkers rather than the Eldrazi themselves (well other than the "spark grants you blatant ownership of the planes & beyond apparently" gripe we've been seeing lately), let alone it be any justifiable reason for them to move the Eldrazi.
In fact, this potentially warping of the multiversal natural way makes Nahiri more of a villain, to me at least. I don't see it as a justification, I see it as conviction for her villainy. At that point (SOI & EMN), Nahiri doesn't care about the Eldrazi and their natural patterns. Yes, she probably doesn't know, but I'm sure she's at the point that even she did, she wouldn't care, so the point about her not knowing makes no difference - her conviction and plan would have been the same even if she knew all about the Eldrazi. That made her a good villain, or at least, antagonist in SOI. Her overall character suffers a bit though, considering most of her convictions and actions are all based on misinformation/lack of information (and Sorin being the terrible mentor he is) and is also all focused on one plane where she already "completed" her plan, so it sort of kills any future expectations (outside of Tarkir, but that's just a remote possibility) of Nahiri as a villain in the grand scheme of MTG.
On to more obvious villains, while people are impressed by Bolas in HoD, I'm actually sort of disappointed (disclaimer: pending on future information) - Bolas has not changed from his Saturday-Morning-Cartoon-Image, if you asked me. Sure he was victorious, but that victory felt empty because we have no idea what he intended to do with the Eternals (contrast Nahiri, whose plan could be shaped out even without directly being told earlier). It feels like the half-episode where the villain wins "for now" and it's just a set-up for him to lose later. It doesn't help the typical villain ball actions that are coming into play to save the Gatewatch now - I'm not buying Bolas, an Elder Dragon Planeswalker at the peak of his post-mending power could not kill a single planeswalker.
So, bluntly put, I've not seen a long-term villain who has had much conviction as Nahiri did during SOI for me to "love to hate". Nahiri herself doesn't qualify for "long-term" because of her circumstances. When I meant "long-term", I meant "sizable portion/most of the villain's technically visible/known "screen"time", so it doesn't actually have to span long in actual time. This where the likes of Yawgmoth/Phyrexia and Konda succeeded. The nearest parallel to Konda would be Heliod for now but no one is near the likes of Yawgmoth/Phyrexia and in the age where the emphasis is on inter-planar threats, that's the more important villain to establish (which is the same reason why Heliod is also so diminished when compared to Konda).
Heliod - he destroyed Godsend while killing Elspeth, further evidence of having the natural order of Theros in mind when he did.
His version of order, not the natural order. That's an important caveat, and is often how white goes villainous.
which was more of an issue with Konda than it was with Heliod. He could have used Godsend to forcibly become king of the gods, but destroyed it instead. He seems to desire authority through devotion, which is the natural order of Theros.
The Theros gods aren't the "natural order" though, they are Nyxborn that through belief and worship became god-leveled powerful. They are a feature on the world but not a manifestation/avatar/extensions/ect of the world like the Amonkhet gods or the Kami are, Theros existed before and could still function without the gods.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Heliod - he destroyed Godsend while killing Elspeth, further evidence of having the natural order of Theros in mind when he did.
His version of order, not the natural order. That's an important caveat, and is often how white goes villainous.
which was more of an issue with Konda than it was with Heliod. He could have used Godsend to forcibly become king of the gods, but destroyed it instead. He seems to desire authority through devotion, which is the natural order of Theros.
The Theros gods aren't the "natural order" though, they are Nyxborn that through belief and worship became god-leveled powerful. They are a feature on the world but not a manifestation/avatar/extensions/ect of the world like the Amonkhet gods or the Kami are, Theros existed before and could still function without the gods.
The Theros gods are not Nyxborn. The Nyxborn were created through magic by Kruphix, the first of which was Nykthos, the diving artisan. Godsend outright states this. The genuine pantheon formed naturally through the world's metaphysics of Nyx adapting to human beliefs, creating embodiments of those beliefs. Theros gods have been demonstrated to have absolute dominion over natural elements of the world itself within their respective domains. We see evidence of their interactions with the natural world and how they change physical laws of Theros around them through divinity.
I'm fairly sure that Jenrik would not have been the protagonist of SOI even without Jace to fill his role. Heck, even if Wizards hadn't decided to focus on planeswalkers half a decade ago, they might have still gone for a new character to lead the ivnestigation over using a one-off flavour text character.
I agree.
Personally I found it neat that Jenrik was mentioned at all. They could have also just swept him under the rug like literally 99% of all flavour text one-offs.
I got one better for you.
"Jace receives a letter, its written by Jenrik in the matter of the disappearance of Tamiyo. Tamiyo had mentioned Jace to him about his mental powers, so he would like to request if Jace could investigate a matter for him. Jenrik also mentions in the letter that its quite pecuilar of her abscene since Tamiyo was about to share important information with him. In the letter Jace is told about the last place Tamiyo was and he should start there."
Ta-da! The minor character Jenrik was not killed but it still maintains the mystery & intrigue angle they were going for. Which also opens up the character Jenrik to going into madness, a fate worse than death. Which is also what they were going for.
Also, if you believe that Jenrik is anywhere near the same level as Glissa and Slobad I got a planar bridge to sell you.
Not so much importance of the same level, I just personally despise when the the character was written out-of-character in a manner that only serves to move the plot forward.
There was literally no need for Jenrik to die. Except that Creative, in their cheap linear way wanted the investigation of Emrakul's influence to be solely the business of Planeswalkers and not involve the local legends whatsoever. I loved Tamiyo's role and I am fine with Jace being lead investigator… but they certainly wanted the Legends out of the way fast and pointlessly. Which is always the case these days.
Guess MTG's greatest villain is Creative! Or Marketing: The Gathering. At least The Blight We Were Born For, an all-around great piece, set up Tazri really well as a local Legend playing a major part in the conflict, even when taking second in command to Gideon.
Rashmi was another case where Tezzeret needed HER and HER invention to be relevant to anything, despite Rashmi being plane-bound and him being the PW. Granted he easily rose to power on a foreign plane, somehow, but at least it's acknowledge Rashmi was the real bread winner there. Not some punk with a spark. Still, he is insulting to her for not understanding the visions of the planes, as if having a spark makes him any more intelligent or capable of what she was.
I feel bad for Nahiri and IDK to what extent she is a villain. Someone had to suffer under Emrakul. Might as well hit two birds with one stone by making Sorin and his world suffer the way hers had, instead. Ugin and Sorin did the same to Zendikar for the exact same reason, let alone trapping her there despite being a PW.
Heliod - he destroyed Godsend while killing Elspeth, further evidence of having the natural order of Theros in mind when he did.
If you think about it Nahiri abondoned her people in order to get revenge. If she really cared for them she would have found more powerful allies to team up with to reseal the titains or destroy them. Sorin atleast attempted to save Zendikar in the original block and when that failed went searching for Ugin in order to save Zendikar. To be honest I think they should have left her in the past and just had her die of old age rather than coming up with petty reasons for her and Sorin to fight in order to stir pointless drama.
Tibalt.
Everything about his background and appearance just screams 'pathetic edgelord' to me. No discipline, no sense of accountability, no aspirations. No connections of significance to anyone--just me me me me, inflicting pain for the sake of lulz. The only thing he seems to care about is keeping his fashion style current.
I'll bet when he's not planeswalking he still uses his parents' basement as his home base. Scowling because his dad asked him for the umpteenth time when he's going to do something productive with his life, only momentarily appeased when his mom comes into his room to bring him a plate of chicken nuggets because he's her sensitive, artistic special little boy. At which point he literally starts screaming at her and hits the plate of chicken nuggets out of her hand. Mom yells and swears at him and he slams the door on her; he's so distressed and doesn't know what to do. He didn't mean to do that to his mom but he's literally in shock from being called a little boy. He feels like he's going to explode. Why the f*cking f*ck is he called a little boy? This can't be happening; he's having a f*cking breakdown. He doesn't want to believe anyone could view him as such. He wants to be seen as a powerful villain. He wants to dominate the multiverse and fix this broken image of him. But he cannot f*cking deal with this right now. It wasn't supposed to be like this--he thought he was seen as a well-respected villain on Innistrad???? He felt so f*cked.
I... I want this to be canon so bad!
But yeah, I still believe that we can put a spotlight on Tibalt again. People probably hated him because of his card.
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"We'll scale these cliffs, traverse Brittle Bridge, and then fight our way down the volcanic slopes on the other side."
"Isn't the shortest route through the canyon?"
"Yes."
"So shouldn't we—"
"No."
I feel bad for Nahiri and IDK to what extent she is a villain. Someone had to suffer under Emrakul. Might as well hit two birds with one stone by making Sorin and his world suffer the way hers had, instead. Ugin and Sorin did the same to Zendikar for the exact same reason, let alone trapping her there despite being a PW.
Heliod - he destroyed Godsend while killing Elspeth, further evidence of having the natural order of Theros in mind when he did.
If you think about it Nahiri abondoned her people in order to get revenge. If she really cared for them she would have found more powerful allies to team up with to reseal the titains or destroy them. Sorin atleast attempted to save Zendikar in the original block and when that failed went searching for Ugin in order to save Zendikar. To be honest I think they should have left her in the past and just had her die of old age rather than coming up with petty reasons for her and Sorin to fight in order to stir pointless drama.
Nahiri found Bala Ged to be a wasteland. Akoum was nothing but dust. All three titans were on the loose. She considered her world forfeit, the same way Sorin did Innistrad with only Emrkaul there. As far as she knew, Zendikar was finished.
I feel bad for Nahiri and IDK to what extent she is a villain. Someone had to suffer under Emrakul. Might as well hit two birds with one stone by making Sorin and his world suffer the way hers had, instead. Ugin and Sorin did the same to Zendikar for the exact same reason, let alone trapping her there despite being a PW.
Heliod - he destroyed Godsend while killing Elspeth, further evidence of having the natural order of Theros in mind when he did.
If you think about it Nahiri abondoned her people in order to get revenge. If she really cared for them she would have found more powerful allies to team up with to reseal the titains or destroy them. Sorin atleast attempted to save Zendikar in the original block and when that failed went searching for Ugin in order to save Zendikar. To be honest I think they should have left her in the past and just had her die of old age rather than coming up with petty reasons for her and Sorin to fight in order to stir pointless drama.
Nahiri found Bala Ged to be a wasteland. Akoum was nothing but dust. All three titans were on the loose. She considered her world forfeit, the same way Sorin did Innistrad with only Emrkaul there. As far as she knew, Zendikar was finished.
Yes but if she was really this autrustic character that people still believe her to be why would she use all of her power to commit mass genoicide? Over a five minute fight that they were both too impulsive about. I think that the whole thing was utterly stupid and they pulled it out of their A** when they came up with on the spot to create drama. I am a little jaded though so I shouldn't argue and criticize other people's characters.
I feel bad for Nahiri and IDK to what extent she is a villain. Someone had to suffer under Emrakul. Might as well hit two birds with one stone by making Sorin and his world suffer the way hers had, instead. Ugin and Sorin did the same to Zendikar for the exact same reason, let alone trapping her there despite being a PW.
Heliod - he destroyed Godsend while killing Elspeth, further evidence of having the natural order of Theros in mind when he did.
If you think about it Nahiri abondoned her people in order to get revenge. If she really cared for them she would have found more powerful allies to team up with to reseal the titains or destroy them. Sorin atleast attempted to save Zendikar in the original block and when that failed went searching for Ugin in order to save Zendikar. To be honest I think they should have left her in the past and just had her die of old age rather than coming up with petty reasons for her and Sorin to fight in order to stir pointless drama.
Nahiri found Bala Ged to be a wasteland. Akoum was nothing but dust. All three titans were on the loose. She considered her world forfeit, the same way Sorin did Innistrad with only Emrkaul there. As far as she knew, Zendikar was finished.
Yes but if she was really this autrustic character that people still believe her to be why would she use all of her power to commit mass genoicide? Over a five minute fight that they were both too impulsive about. I think that the whole thing was utterly stupid and they pulled it out of their A** when they came up with on the spot to create drama. I am a little jaded though so I shouldn't argue and criticize other people's characters.
I really feel like creative missed an opportunity when it turned out Nahiri was just there for revenge, instead of it being her plan to lock Em in Innistrad's moon.
If the binding had been her plan all along, she have kept her altruistic characterization, but still would have been the antagonist (and thus villain as far as Sorin and the denizens of Innistrad we're concerned). Particularly if part of her plan was to force Sorin into stewardship of the Innistrad prison, as she had been of Zendikar.
Someone had posted such a plot as supposedly being in the art book (and it had been widely speculated as the case before then), but sadly that wasn't the case.
Though I soppose spending a THOUSAND YEARS in what was essentially solitary confinement could certainly strip one of any such altruistic nature.
She also emerged a neo-walker from the Helvault, not to mention having been trapped, as a planeswalker, on one plane with the Eldrazi all those centuries as well.
I feel bad for Nahiri and IDK to what extent she is a villain. Someone had to suffer under Emrakul. Might as well hit two birds with one stone by making Sorin and his world suffer the way hers had, instead. Ugin and Sorin did the same to Zendikar for the exact same reason, let alone trapping her there despite being a PW.
Heliod - he destroyed Godsend while killing Elspeth, further evidence of having the natural order of Theros in mind when he did.
If you think about it Nahiri abondoned her people in order to get revenge. If she really cared for them she would have found more powerful allies to team up with to reseal the titains or destroy them. Sorin atleast attempted to save Zendikar in the original block and when that failed went searching for Ugin in order to save Zendikar. To be honest I think they should have left her in the past and just had her die of old age rather than coming up with petty reasons for her and Sorin to fight in order to stir pointless drama.
Nahiri found Bala Ged to be a wasteland. Akoum was nothing but dust. All three titans were on the loose. She considered her world forfeit, the same way Sorin did Innistrad with only Emrkaul there. As far as she knew, Zendikar was finished.
Yes but if she was really this autrustic character that people still believe her to be why would she use all of her power to commit mass genoicide? Over a five minute fight that they were both too impulsive about. I think that the whole thing was utterly stupid and they pulled it out of their A** when they came up with on the spot to create drama. I am a little jaded though so I shouldn't argue and criticize other people's characters.
I really feel like creative missed an opportunity when it turned out Nahiri was just there for revenge, instead of it being her plan to lock Em in Innistrad's moon.
If the binding had been her plan all along, she have kept her altruistic characterization, but still would have been the antagonist (and thus villain as far as Sorin and the denizens of Innistrad we're concerned). Particularly if part of her plan was to force Sorin into stewardship of the Innistrad prison, as she had been of Zendikar.
Someone had posted such a plot as supposedly being in the art book (and it had been widely speculated as the case before then), but sadly that wasn't the case.
Though I soppose spending a THOUSAND YEARS in what was essentially solitary confinement could certainly strip one of any such altruistic nature.
I think it would have been more interesting if she had purpusfully brought Em there to lock her in the moon as well, but to be honest I don't think the way they set the story up does any justice to any of the characters. What does it matter if it's a revenge story if we don't see how they interacted with in the past. To my knowledge they haven't had a prose story that had Ugin, Sorin, and Nahiri in it. I could be wrong but when I was really into the story there was not. Were they friends? Did they just meet up and go hey we need to take care of this problem. I mean everybody treats Nahiri like she was this lost little puppy dog who was bullied into making Zendikar a prison. She is a powerful planeswalker who has been shown to pacify two other planeswalkers she could have said screw you and left it at that. Ugin and Sorin could have found another oldwalker and figured something out. I was always under the impression that the three came up with the plan together, but again I am not as staunch to the story as I have been in the past.
She also emerged a neo-walker from the Helvault, not to mention having been trapped, as a planeswalker, on one plane with the Eldrazi all those centuries as well.
But why did creative think that this was necessary to the story? I mean Nahiri fans either have to think that she's a crazy loon, a homicidal maniac, or that she somehow had some selfless pure reason of doing it. In the long run what does Nahiri's revenge add to the overall story? The only thing I could think of is Tarkir is her next target and she brings back the Khans to screw over Ugin which would actually make me like her again.
Idk if I hate him because he's an awesome character but I'm surprised no one has brought up Baral. He wasn't the primary antagonist in Kaladesh block but he's a detestable (and understandable) villain. I don't like Bolas or the Phyrexians for what they did to Amonkhet and Mirrodin respectively but I like them as characters. And Heliod is awesomely douchy.
I know calling them villains is a point of contention but I think the "villains" I most want to see get their comeuppance are the Tarkiri dragonlords. I can't wait for a resurgence of the clans to boot them from power.
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My Decks:
UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
Heliod - he destroyed Godsend while killing Elspeth, further evidence of having the natural order of Theros in mind when he did.
His version of order, not the natural order. That's an important caveat, and is often how white goes villainous.
which was more of an issue with Konda than it was with Heliod. He could have used Godsend to forcibly become king of the gods, but destroyed it instead. He seems to desire authority through devotion, which is the natural order of Theros.
The Theros gods aren't the "natural order" though, they are Nyxborn that through belief and worship became god-leveled powerful. They are a feature on the world but not a manifestation/avatar/extensions/ect of the world like the Amonkhet gods or the Kami are, Theros existed before and could still function without the gods.
The Theros gods are not Nyxborn. The Nyxborn were created through magic by Kruphix, the first of which was Nykthos, the diving artisan. Godsend outright states this. The genuine pantheon formed naturally through the world's metaphysics of Nyx adapting to human beliefs, creating embodiments of those beliefs. Theros gods have been demonstrated to have absolute dominion over natural elements of the world itself within their respective domains. We see evidence of their interactions with the natural world and how they change physical laws of Theros around them through divinity.
When I use Nyxborn I mean beings made through mortals dreams on Theros and then brought to life through Nyx aka how the gods where born.
The story of Nykthos is told from Nylea perspective and we can't claim its fact, since we seen the gods memories of the past can be changed due to mortal believe (examples being the god of love being forgotten, Erebos (or proto-Erebos) being born before Heliod (or Proto-Heliod) but said to be Heliods cast off shadow, etc). Kruphix even said himself he's not sure if he was the first god born so saying he created the Nyxborn (which seem to natural form anyways) could just be another belief people made until it became true with the pantheon) can't be said for sure.
And sure the gods can control nature, so can Nissa and any other powerful mage, doesn't make them apart of the natural world. Sure they where born through the natural magic on Theros but they are not the natural world given form like the Kami or Amonkhet gods. They are just very powerful being that through belief where able to take over Theros but if they where all killed Theros could still go on, just like if all of human civilian was destroyed the earth could still go on.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
His version of order, not the natural order. That's an important caveat, and is often how white goes villainous.
which was more of an issue with Konda than it was with Heliod. He could have used Godsend to forcibly become king of the gods, but destroyed it instead. He seems to desire authority through devotion, which is the natural order of Theros.
The Theros gods aren't the "natural order" though, they are Nyxborn that through belief and worship became god-leveled powerful. They are a feature on the world but not a manifestation/avatar/extensions/ect of the world like the Amonkhet gods or the Kami are, Theros existed before and could still function without the gods.
The Theros gods are not Nyxborn. The Nyxborn were created through magic by Kruphix, the first of which was Nykthos, the diving artisan. Godsend outright states this. The genuine pantheon formed naturally through the world's metaphysics of Nyx adapting to human beliefs, creating embodiments of those beliefs. Theros gods have been demonstrated to have absolute dominion over natural elements of the world itself within their respective domains. We see evidence of their interactions with the natural world and how they change physical laws of Theros around them through divinity.
When I use Nyxborn I mean beings made through mortals dreams on Theros and then brought to life through Nyx aka how the gods where born.
The story of Nykthos is told from Nylea perspective and we can't claim its fact
You're not using the proper term then. Nyxborn were not created by mortal dreams or belief the way the gods were. They were created by Kruphix. And yes, Godsend and Nylea's memories are fact. No mortal alive remembers the act of Nykthos being created to influence her thoughts. Even Nylea remembers him as one would a distant grandfather. Godsend is as solid a source as any for Theros, and discrediting Nylea as a source is where I stopped reading. BTW, the gods aren't as tangible as you're making them out to be either. Not since the pantheon stabilized. You're honestly making a lost of assumptions based on your own theories…
If you think about it Nahiri abondoned her people in order to get revenge. If she really cared for them she would have found more powerful allies to team up with to reseal the titains or destroy them. Sorin atleast attempted to save Zendikar in the original block and when that failed went searching for Ugin in order to save Zendikar. To be honest I think they should have left her in the past and just had her die of old age rather than coming up with petty reasons for her and Sorin to fight in order to stir pointless drama.
Nahiri found Bala Ged to be a wasteland. Akoum was nothing but dust. All three titans were on the loose. She considered her world forfeit, the same way Sorin did Innistrad with only Emrkaul there. As far as she knew, Zendikar was finished.
Yes but if she was really this autrustic character that people still believe her to be why would she use all of her power to commit mass genoicide? Over a five minute fight that they were both too impulsive about. I think that the whole thing was utterly stupid and they pulled it out of their A** when they came up with on the spot to create drama. I am a little jaded though so I shouldn't argue and criticize other people's characters.
I really feel like creative missed an opportunity when it turned out Nahiri was just there for revenge, instead of it being her plan to lock Em in Innistrad's moon.
If the binding had been her plan all along, she have kept her altruistic characterization, but still would have been the antagonist (and thus villain as far as Sorin and the denizens of Innistrad we're concerned). Particularly if part of her plan was to force Sorin into stewardship of the Innistrad prison, as she had been of Zendikar.
Someone had posted such a plot as supposedly being in the art book (and it had been widely speculated as the case before then), but sadly that wasn't the case.
Though I soppose spending a THOUSAND YEARS in what was essentially solitary confinement could certainly strip one of any such altruistic nature.
I think it would have been more interesting if she had purpusfully brought Em there to lock her in the moon as well, but to be honest I don't think the way they set the story up does any justice to any of the characters. What does it matter if it's a revenge story if we don't see how they interacted with in the past. To my knowledge they haven't had a prose story that had Ugin, Sorin, and Nahiri in it. I could be wrong but when I was really into the story there was not. Were they friends? Did they just meet up and go hey we need to take care of this problem. I mean everybody treats Nahiri like she was this lost little puppy dog who was bullied into making Zendikar a prison. She is a powerful planeswalker who has been shown to pacify two other planeswalkers she could have said screw you and left it at that. Ugin and Sorin could have found another oldwalker and figured something out. I was always under the impression that the three came up with the plan together, but again I am not as staunch to the story as I have been in the past.
There two story are Nahiris prologue of sorts to SoI storyline, the first one is about Ugin, Sorin and Nahiri making the plan and trapping the eldrazi and the second shows why Nahiri got upset at Sorin and went to go find him on Innistrad. The rest of her conflict with Sorin is covered in the SoI block stories;
which was more of an issue with Konda than it was with Heliod. He could have used Godsend to forcibly become king of the gods, but destroyed it instead. He seems to desire authority through devotion, which is the natural order of Theros.
The Theros gods aren't the "natural order" though, they are Nyxborn that through belief and worship became god-leveled powerful. They are a feature on the world but not a manifestation/avatar/extensions/ect of the world like the Amonkhet gods or the Kami are, Theros existed before and could still function without the gods.
The Theros gods are not Nyxborn. The Nyxborn were created through magic by Kruphix, the first of which was Nykthos, the diving artisan. Godsend outright states this. The genuine pantheon formed naturally through the world's metaphysics of Nyx adapting to human beliefs, creating embodiments of those beliefs. Theros gods have been demonstrated to have absolute dominion over natural elements of the world itself within their respective domains. We see evidence of their interactions with the natural world and how they change physical laws of Theros around them through divinity.
When I use Nyxborn I mean beings made through mortals dreams on Theros and then brought to life through Nyx aka how the gods where born.
The story of Nykthos is told from Nylea perspective and we can't claim its fact
You're not using the proper term then. Nyxborn were not created by mortal dreams or belief the way the gods were. They were created by Kruphix. And yes, Godsend and Nylea's memories are fact. No mortal alive remembers the act of Nykthos being created
to influence her thoughts. Even Nylea remembers him as one would a distant grandfather. Godsend is as solid a source as any for Theros, and discrediting Nylea as a source is where I stopped reading. BTW, the gods aren't as tangible as you're making them out to be either. Not since the pantheon stabilized. You're honestly making a lost of assumptions based on your own theories…
I never pantheon was currently unstable, a story even hints the gods believing in themselves so much has helped them stabilize more (the one where Ashoik makes the second gods of cities). It seems at a certain point the gods and their mythology got "locked in" but Kruphix already showed that a lot of this used to change. There was a love god, the god of death wasn't born from the sun gods shadow, Heliod wasn'tt the first god of the sun there was, there was possibly a god of horizons before Kruphix and no mortal or god besides Kruphix members this.
We even have had creative state that the Theros gods are not as connected to the natural state of the world unlike the Amonkhet gods and seemingly the Kami, which was my point to begin with. Depending on how you look at it the Theros gods are not the "natural order" of Theros, one of the points Xenagos wanted to also make.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
The Theros gods are not manifestations of the plane/worldsoul itself the way Amonkhet's gods are literal leylines, but they are divinities with absolute dominion over the natural world within their domain. Thassa is the literal personification of the sea. We have seen evidence of this time and again. Even against Kiora, Thassa's voice simmers of the ocean itself, the sea creatures obey her command, Sirens are her children, etc. Just because Theros can survive without its gods doesn't mean they are not in control of the natural world when present. And if their presence wasn't a natural phenomenon of Theros, Nyx wouldn't have created them from beliefs naturally. If anything, Xenagos was proven wrong when he demonstrated himself to be a false god and caused chaos trying to sustain his fake and transient divinity while the other gods naturally existed.
Black alignment villains are honest and they know that they villanous XD. White villains are usually hypocritical or arrogant and deny that they are doing evil things.
I think that white villains don't deny doing evil things, they don't even realize doing them. If I remember well, Konda stole That Which Was Taken, to grant him immortality, because he was really convinced that the only think that it was keeping Towabara together was his presence (since he pacified all the warring warlords, in something akin to a Pax Kondana). So, by obtaining immortality, he thinks he's granting a future free from war for all his people... even if are his actions what brought the Kami War.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
You probably saw this coming from me, an Eldrazi empathizer, but I don't see "someone had to suffer under Emrakul" as a justifiable reason in any way after the way the oldwalkers have been moving them around like house-destroying skunks. Emrakul has already established there is an order to which the Eldrazi do things (in fairness though it could be just Ulamog just wants to eat and the rest have to clean up afterwards for all we know) and everything we've been shown up to this point is where planeswalkers want them to be.
I don't see how that "someone" (who has to be suffer under Emrakul) is chosen by planeswalkers rather than the Eldrazi themselves (well other than the "spark grants you blatant ownership of the planes & beyond apparently" gripe we've been seeing lately), let alone it be any justifiable reason for them to move the Eldrazi.
In fact, this potentially warping of the multiversal natural way makes Nahiri more of a villain, to me at least. I don't see it as a justification, I see it as conviction for her villainy. At that point (SOI & EMN), Nahiri doesn't care about the Eldrazi and their natural patterns. Yes, she probably doesn't know, but I'm sure she's at the point that even she did, she wouldn't care, so the point about her not knowing makes no difference - her conviction and plan would have been the same even if she knew all about the Eldrazi. That made her a good villain, or at least, antagonist in SOI. Her overall character suffers a bit though, considering most of her convictions and actions are all based on misinformation/lack of information (and Sorin being the terrible mentor he is) and is also all focused on one plane where she already "completed" her plan, so it sort of kills any future expectations (outside of Tarkir, but that's just a remote possibility) of Nahiri as a villain in the grand scheme of MTG.
On to more obvious villains, while people are impressed by Bolas in HoD, I'm actually sort of disappointed (disclaimer: pending on future information) - Bolas has not changed from his Saturday-Morning-Cartoon-Image, if you asked me. Sure he was victorious, but that victory felt empty because we have no idea what he intended to do with the Eternals (contrast Nahiri, whose plan could be shaped out even without directly being told earlier). It feels like the half-episode where the villain wins "for now" and it's just a set-up for him to lose later. It doesn't help the typical villain ball actions that are coming into play to save the Gatewatch now - I'm not buying Bolas, an Elder Dragon Planeswalker at the peak of his post-mending power could not kill a single planeswalker.
So, bluntly put, I've not seen a long-term villain who has had much conviction as Nahiri did during SOI for me to "love to hate". Nahiri herself doesn't qualify for "long-term" because of her circumstances. When I meant "long-term", I meant "sizable portion/most of the villain's technically visible/known "screen"time", so it doesn't actually have to span long in actual time. This where the likes of Yawgmoth/Phyrexia and Konda succeeded. The nearest parallel to Konda would be Heliod for now but no one is near the likes of Yawgmoth/Phyrexia and in the age where the emphasis is on inter-planar threats, that's the more important villain to establish (which is the same reason why Heliod is also so diminished when compared to Konda).
The Theros gods aren't the "natural order" though, they are Nyxborn that through belief and worship became god-leveled powerful. They are a feature on the world but not a manifestation/avatar/extensions/ect of the world like the Amonkhet gods or the Kami are, Theros existed before and could still function without the gods.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Like Mark Rosewater
Like Mark Rosewater
Ok ok, I deserve a warning.
3BB
Sorcery
You lose the game.
I got one better for you.
"Jace receives a letter, its written by Jenrik in the matter of the disappearance of Tamiyo. Tamiyo had mentioned Jace to him about his mental powers, so he would like to request if Jace could investigate a matter for him. Jenrik also mentions in the letter that its quite pecuilar of her abscene since Tamiyo was about to share important information with him. In the letter Jace is told about the last place Tamiyo was and he should start there."
Ta-da! The minor character Jenrik was not killed but it still maintains the mystery & intrigue angle they were going for. Which also opens up the character Jenrik to going into madness, a fate worse than death. Which is also what they were going for.
Not so much importance of the same level, I just personally despise when the the character was written out-of-character in a manner that only serves to move the plot forward.
Guess MTG's greatest villain is Creative! Or Marketing: The Gathering. At least The Blight We Were Born For, an all-around great piece, set up Tazri really well as a local Legend playing a major part in the conflict, even when taking second in command to Gideon.
Rashmi was another case where Tezzeret needed HER and HER invention to be relevant to anything, despite Rashmi being plane-bound and him being the PW. Granted he easily rose to power on a foreign plane, somehow, but at least it's acknowledge Rashmi was the real bread winner there. Not some punk with a spark. Still, he is insulting to her for not understanding the visions of the planes, as if having a spark makes him any more intelligent or capable of what she was.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
If you think about it Nahiri abondoned her people in order to get revenge. If she really cared for them she would have found more powerful allies to team up with to reseal the titains or destroy them. Sorin atleast attempted to save Zendikar in the original block and when that failed went searching for Ugin in order to save Zendikar. To be honest I think they should have left her in the past and just had her die of old age rather than coming up with petty reasons for her and Sorin to fight in order to stir pointless drama.
I... I want this to be canon so bad!
But yeah, I still believe that we can put a spotlight on Tibalt again. People probably hated him because of his card.
"Isn't the shortest route through the canyon?"
"Yes."
"So shouldn't we—"
"No."
- From Canyon Minotaur
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Yes but if she was really this autrustic character that people still believe her to be why would she use all of her power to commit mass genoicide? Over a five minute fight that they were both too impulsive about. I think that the whole thing was utterly stupid and they pulled it out of their A** when they came up with on the spot to create drama. I am a little jaded though so I shouldn't argue and criticize other people's characters.
I really feel like creative missed an opportunity when it turned out Nahiri was just there for revenge, instead of it being her plan to lock Em in Innistrad's moon.
If the binding had been her plan all along, she have kept her altruistic characterization, but still would have been the antagonist (and thus villain as far as Sorin and the denizens of Innistrad we're concerned). Particularly if part of her plan was to force Sorin into stewardship of the Innistrad prison, as she had been of Zendikar.
Someone had posted such a plot as supposedly being in the art book (and it had been widely speculated as the case before then), but sadly that wasn't the case.
Though I soppose spending a THOUSAND YEARS in what was essentially solitary confinement could certainly strip one of any such altruistic nature.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I think it would have been more interesting if she had purpusfully brought Em there to lock her in the moon as well, but to be honest I don't think the way they set the story up does any justice to any of the characters. What does it matter if it's a revenge story if we don't see how they interacted with in the past. To my knowledge they haven't had a prose story that had Ugin, Sorin, and Nahiri in it. I could be wrong but when I was really into the story there was not. Were they friends? Did they just meet up and go hey we need to take care of this problem. I mean everybody treats Nahiri like she was this lost little puppy dog who was bullied into making Zendikar a prison. She is a powerful planeswalker who has been shown to pacify two other planeswalkers she could have said screw you and left it at that. Ugin and Sorin could have found another oldwalker and figured something out. I was always under the impression that the three came up with the plan together, but again I am not as staunch to the story as I have been in the past.
But why did creative think that this was necessary to the story? I mean Nahiri fans either have to think that she's a crazy loon, a homicidal maniac, or that she somehow had some selfless pure reason of doing it. In the long run what does Nahiri's revenge add to the overall story? The only thing I could think of is Tarkir is her next target and she brings back the Khans to screw over Ugin which would actually make me like her again.
I know calling them villains is a point of contention but I think the "villains" I most want to see get their comeuppance are the Tarkiri dragonlords. I can't wait for a resurgence of the clans to boot them from power.
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
When I use Nyxborn I mean beings made through mortals dreams on Theros and then brought to life through Nyx aka how the gods where born.
The story of Nykthos is told from Nylea perspective and we can't claim its fact, since we seen the gods memories of the past can be changed due to mortal believe (examples being the god of love being forgotten, Erebos (or proto-Erebos) being born before Heliod (or Proto-Heliod) but said to be Heliods cast off shadow, etc). Kruphix even said himself he's not sure if he was the first god born so saying he created the Nyxborn (which seem to natural form anyways) could just be another belief people made until it became true with the pantheon) can't be said for sure.
And sure the gods can control nature, so can Nissa and any other powerful mage, doesn't make them apart of the natural world. Sure they where born through the natural magic on Theros but they are not the natural world given form like the Kami or Amonkhet gods. They are just very powerful being that through belief where able to take over Theros but if they where all killed Theros could still go on, just like if all of human civilian was destroyed the earth could still go on.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
There two story are Nahiris prologue of sorts to SoI storyline, the first one is about Ugin, Sorin and Nahiri making the plan and trapping the eldrazi and the second shows why Nahiri got upset at Sorin and went to go find him on Innistrad. The rest of her conflict with Sorin is covered in the SoI block stories;
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/ur/lithomancer-2014-10-29
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-story/stone-and-blood-2016-06-15
I never pantheon was currently unstable, a story even hints the gods believing in themselves so much has helped them stabilize more (the one where Ashoik makes the second gods of cities). It seems at a certain point the gods and their mythology got "locked in" but Kruphix already showed that a lot of this used to change. There was a love god, the god of death wasn't born from the sun gods shadow, Heliod wasn'tt the first god of the sun there was, there was possibly a god of horizons before Kruphix and no mortal or god besides Kruphix members this.
We even have had creative state that the Theros gods are not as connected to the natural state of the world unlike the Amonkhet gods and seemingly the Kami, which was my point to begin with. Depending on how you look at it the Theros gods are not the "natural order" of Theros, one of the points Xenagos wanted to also make.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
very interesting...
Click the pic for more info.
Yawgmoth
Zarel
Towser
Baral
Tasigur
Lim Dul
Of those I want to get their comeuppance and soon:
Heliod
Elesh Norn
Nicol Bolas
Of those I'd rather see redeem themselves:
Nahiri
In Progress
GBIshkanah, Grafwidow ~ BWGRTymna the Weaver & Tana, the Bloodsower ~ UGRashmi, Eternities Crafter ~ RGAtarka, World Render
Elesh Norn is also regarded as cool, and her delusions are seen as horrific in an interesting way