Sooooo anybody else feel really bad for the Scorpion god? Twisted beyond recognition and sanity, forced to kill your own brothers and sisters and then impaled on a giant spike. At least Scarab and Locust have a chance to be freed from Bolas's control. I'm glad Hazoret makes it out, I'd assumed all of the gods would bite it.
I buy Bolas releasing the eldrazi as an experiment. If you want to gather pw in one area a massive extraplanar threat is probably the best way to do. It also shows what kind of response there would be to such a threat (Bolas himself being one). There's no danger to Bolas since he can just pw away from any plane the titans come to (we know he wont care about a plane dying). Also, last and most importantly, Bolas is a dick. Even if he thought he'd already killed Ugin he probably got a kick out of undoing all the spirit dragon's work. I wouldn't mind there being more reasons for him to release the titans but if this is it I can buy it.
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My Decks:
UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
I don't think that the capacity to travel to different worlds would make it any less awe-evoking. I have the ability to purchase a ticket and see France which is different enough that I'd be awe inspired throughout my stay there.
Obviously the first time would be awe-evoking. But what about the second? Third? Hundredth? How many brand new worlds does it take before new worlds, in and of themselves, are no longer awe-evoking? Before the shock of different cultures is now the normal? After you see Mirrodin is Esper that shocking? After you've seen Eldrazi are local rulers, even deities, that impressive? It is not the simple ability to travel that gives them this warped perspective, its actually traveling.
I don't think that the capacity to travel to different worlds would make it any less awe-evoking. I have the ability to purchase a ticket and see France which is different enough that I'd be awe inspired throughout my stay there.
Obviously the first time would be awe-evoking. But what about the second? Third? Hundredth? How many brand new worlds does it take before new worlds, in and of themselves, are no longer awe-evoking? Before the shock of different cultures is now the normal? After you see Mirrodin is Esper that shocking? After you've seen Eldrazi are local rulers, even deities, that impressive? It is not the simple ability to travel that gives them this warped perspective, its actually traveling.
I can see where you are coming from for characters like Sorin, Lilliana, and Bolas, but the more mortal planeswalker I think would. And how long do you think they are staying on these planes? Even Mirrodin, Esper, and Kaladesh are different culturaly that you could spend time to find out about them. For Mirrodin metal is just a part of their skin, for Esper it is almost a spiritual form of seeking perfection, and for Kaladesh it is a means to creativity. Lets say Saheeli traveled to Esper, I think there would be enough for her to feel at home and be in awe of the differences. And for non-Gatewatch characters what would be the point of planeswalking at all if not for discovery? Why wouldn't they just find the plane that feels the most like home and stay there?
So the Eldrazi's threat level just sunked even more....They were jsut lab rats to "test" Planewalkers.
Wizards really destroyed the Eldrazi's flavour din't they...
But of course. Didn't you know everything about this game is about Planeswalkers? Gods, Eldritch horror deities, even entire planes are just props for the Planeswalker soap opera, where they're the entire focus. With this sort of writing, every Planeswalker is a Mary Sue. The fact we couldn't even get Egypt World off the short list without it being Bolas World with an Egyptian veneer is enough evidence of that. I'm willing to grant Bolas is capable of such a feat though, but in the context of everything - just reprehensible. But the way BFZ and Ulamog/Kozilek were handled, Bolas's motives with Eldrazi, Razaketh etc. have been handled? The setup they gave Kiora against Thassa? The idea that Eldrazi titans are pushovers, but Ob Nixlis and Bolas deliver Gatewatch losses? SOI/EMN may very well be the only damn story actually handled rather well. And even then, Emrakul's entire release was orchestrated for… Planeswalkers.
It's just embarrassing. Just call them Oldwalkers already, then. Retcon the mending out. THe mending SHOULD have been a reason Planeswalkers are interesting - being diverse mages who can roam the planes, learning various magics, working hard to develop and hone their abilities through their travels. Being able to wander, escape, return places. It's disingenuous to say they're mages who happen to travel worlds while writing them like immortal gods who humble Eldrazi titans, actual gods, and are the only real heroes and villains of stories; roles that are handed to them right off the bat with minimal effort. It's absurd to me that just being a Planeswalker is the reason these MORTAL, SIMPLE MAGES WHO HAPPEN TO WALK WORLDS can march right up to heavily guarded monarchs in fortresses, head angels on their own turf and SKY-DWELLING DIVINITIES ruling over the natural order of an entire UNIVERSE like they would to a mailbox within hours or days of arriving on a foreign world they've only just experienced.
With that logic, an immigrant should just walk right up to President Trump's doorstep for dinner moments after landing in our airport from Cambodia with ease. Welcome! You can travel continents, therefore you must be exceptional!
Gone are the days of writing like Scott McGough and heroes like Toshi. Who earned their results and adapted to challenges.
I think you're forgetting that planeswalkers, both Old and Neo, have this attitude because they're keenly aware of the vast expanse of the multiverse. This by itself makes it difficult for a walker to really connect with a world that isn't their own unless they put in the effort or have serious motivation, and it's typically white walkers who do that.
When a planebound being like Rashmi, Drana or Kydele is exposed to the idea that there's something beyond their plane's bounds, they openly show wonder, fascination or awe. By stark contrast, it isn't anything special to walkers that have been around many places like the Gatewatch, Tezzeret and so on. It doesn't help that walkers aren't even supposed to be in worlds other than their own, but a glitch in the MTG Matrix called the spark lets them world-hop. Tamiyo even outright called planeswalkers "disasters with a point of view".
Planeswalkers and people with plane-hopping tech like the Planar Bridge and ye-olde planar portals are inherently a danger to the multiverse.
I don't think that the capacity to travel to different worlds would make it any less awe-evoking. I have the ability to purchase a ticket and see France which is different enough that I'd be awe inspired throughout my stay there.
I agree. And even if new planes weren't awe-inspiring, it still doesn't explain how these NEO-walkers march right up to monarchs and deities within days of arriving on a plane just by virtue of being Planeswalkers. Let alone humiliate and defeat them? Makes me wonder how these characters could ever grow? If there's literally nothing for them to learn from, respect, or be defeated by other than each other? And the reason for all this overpowered, horrible Mary Sue writing is "because they have a spark" and then the spark is said to only allow them to traverse the planes?
They're Oldwalkers, then. That's really what it is.
The Eldrazi were always the playthings of planeswalkers - right from the beginning when Ugin wanted to experiment what happens in their absence (at this point of time I don't buy he did it "for the good of the multiverse", that was just a nice cover-up to convince a naive Nahiri back then and Sorin was already intimidated by their power difference - the interest of protecting Innistrad even was just a side-benefit for Sorin).
To be fair to Bolas, there aren't a lot of inter-planar threats you could engineer to get the whole experiment-thing running and while he has the upper hand now, fact remains it was that very plan (release the Eldrazi) that successfully got the Gatewatch on his tail that fast, which means it was quite a bad plan, Bolas was just too powerful he could ignore the consequences altogether. If someone actually more powerful than Bolas did the exact same thing, Bolas might have screwed himself up instead because he was curious. You could say that Bolas planned the "leak" deliberately so he could crush aspiring heroes, but considering he's still playing around by not killing any of the Gatewatch before they could planeswalk away (he should be able to, honestly), I'm more inclined this is just him being careless because he can (which is the typical villain ball... but what can we do?)
Anyway, I think Tezzeret's foray onto New Phyrexia was in a similar vein of "interplanar threats" Bolas wanted to observe and make use of from a distance. It probably fell off his radar (probably due to Tezz's own scheming) some where along the line.
Bolas may have most definitely won here, but it was just due to sheer power and it doesn't really add to his value as a villain (other than being powerful), especially with the whole Eternals plan here being stilled muddled up, we can't even tell what was his goals and hence his feats of power seem to contribute to nothing (other than the show of power we already know he has).
Of course, all this is based on the information we have and the artbook tends to deviate from the story a bit (and not tell us the precise details of the ending), so it's just my opinion based on what we know now.
So the Eldrazi's threat level just sunked even more....They were jsut lab rats to "test" Planewalkers.
Wizards really destroyed the Eldrazi's flavour din't they...
But of course. Didn't you know everything about this game is about Planeswalkers? Gods, Eldritch horror deities, even entire planes are just props for the Planeswalker soap opera, where they're the entire focus. With this sort of writing, every Planeswalker is a Mary Sue. The fact we couldn't even get Egypt World off the short list without it being Bolas World with an Egyptian veneer is enough evidence of that. I'm willing to grant Bolas is capable of such a feat though, but in the context of everything - just reprehensible. But the way BFZ and Ulamog/Kozilek were handled, Bolas's motives with Eldrazi, Razaketh etc. have been handled? The setup they gave Kiora against Thassa? The idea that Eldrazi titans are pushovers, but Ob Nixlis and Bolas deliver Gatewatch losses? SOI/EMN may very well be the only damn story actually handled rather well. And even then, Emrakul's entire release was orchestrated for… Planeswalkers.
It's just embarrassing. Just call them Oldwalkers already, then. Retcon the mending out. THe mending SHOULD have been a reason Planeswalkers are interesting - being diverse mages who can roam the planes, learning various magics, working hard to develop and hone their abilities through their travels. Being able to wander, escape, return places. It's disingenuous to say they're mages who happen to travel worlds while writing them like immortal gods who humble Eldrazi titans, actual gods, and are the only real heroes and villains of stories; roles that are handed to them right off the bat with minimal effort. It's absurd to me that just being a Planeswalker is the reason these MORTAL, SIMPLE MAGES WHO HAPPEN TO WALK WORLDS can march right up to heavily guarded monarchs in fortresses, head angels on their own turf and SKY-DWELLING DIVINITIES ruling over the natural order of an entire UNIVERSE like they would to a mailbox within hours or days of arriving on a foreign world they've only just experienced.
With that logic, an immigrant should just walk right up to President Trump's doorstep for dinner moments after landing in our airport from Cambodia with ease. Welcome! You can travel continents, therefore you must be exceptional!
Gone are the days of writing like Scott McGough and heroes like Toshi. Who earned their results and adapted to challenges.
I think you're forgetting that planeswalkers, both Old and Neo, have this attitude because they're keenly aware of the vast expanse of the multiverse. This by itself makes it difficult for a walker to really connect with a world that isn't their own unless they put in the effort or have serious motivation, and it's typically white walkers who do that.
When a planebound being like Rashmi, Drana or Kydele is exposed to the idea that there's something beyond their plane's bounds, they openly show wonder, fascination or awe. By stark contrast, it isn't anything special to walkers that have been around many places like the Gatewatch, Tezzeret and so on. It doesn't help that walkers aren't even supposed to be in worlds other than their own, but a glitch in the MTG Matrix called the spark lets them world-hop. Tamiyo even outright called planeswalkers "disasters with a point of view".
Planeswalkers and people with plane-hopping tech like the Planar Bridge and ye-olde planar portals are inherently a danger to the multiverse.
I don't think that the capacity to travel to different worlds would make it any less awe-evoking. I have the ability to purchase a ticket and see France which is different enough that I'd be awe inspired throughout my stay there.
I agree. And even if new planes weren't awe-inspiring, it still doesn't explain how these NEO-walkers march right up to monarchs and deities within days of arriving on a plane just by virtue of being Planeswalkers. Let alone humiliate and defeat them? Makes me wonder how these characters could ever grow? If there's literally nothing for them to learn from, respect, or be defeated by other than each other? And the reason for all this overpowered, horrible Mary Sue writing is "because they have a spark" and then the spark is said to only allow them to traverse the planes?
They're Oldwalkers, then. That's really what it is.
I agree that there power levels are a bit over the top. I found it odd that Nissa could just play with Kefnet. What does having a conncection to the land have to do with manipulating a god?
The Eldrazi were always the playthings of planeswalkers - right from the beginning when Ugin wanted to experiment what happens in their absence (at this point of time I don't buy he did it "for the good of the multiverse", that was just a nice cover-up to convince a naive Nahiri back then and Sorin was already intimidated by their power difference - the interest of protecting Innistrad even was just a side-benefit for Sorin).
To be fair to Bolas, there aren't a lot of inter-planar threats you could engineer to get the whole experiment-thing running and while he has the upper hand now, fact remains it was that very plan (release the Eldrazi) that successfully got the Gatewatch on his tail that fast, which means it was quite a bad plan, Bolas was just too powerful he could ignore the consequences altogether. If someone actually more powerful than Bolas did the exact same thing, Bolas might have screwed himself up instead because he was curious. You could say that Bolas planned the "leak" deliberately so he could crush aspiring heroes, but considering he's still playing around by not killing any of the Gatewatch before they could planeswalk away (he should be able to, honestly), I'm more inclined this is just him being careless because he can (which is the typical villain ball... but what can we do?)
Anyway, I think Tezzeret's foray onto New Phyrexia was in a similar vein of "interplanar threats" Bolas wanted to observe and make use of from a distance. It probably fell off his radar (probably due to Tezz's own scheming) some where along the line.
Bolas may have most definitely won here, but it was just due to sheer power and it doesn't really add to his value as a villain (other than being powerful), especially with the whole Eternals plan here being stilled muddled up, we can't even tell what was his goals and hence his feats of power seem to contribute to nothing (other than the show of power we already know he has).
Of course, all this is based on the information we have and the artbook tends to deviate from the story a bit (and not tell us the precise details of the ending), so it's just my opinion based on what we know now.
I think one major flaw of the writers is pacing. I like Bolas, but it's been almost eight years and we still have no idea why he manipulated the Eldrazi release and yet the Gatewatch went from looking for Emrakul to finding her in the very next block. And he's made this giant Eternal army, but why? He had already destroyed all of Amonkhet save for Naktamon by himself, why does he need an army? Is it because of Ugin? He didn't really need an army to defeat him last time? I don't know maybe I've become a little jaded over the last year that I'm looking at Magic with a more negative light than necessary.
I agree that there power levels are a bit over the top. I found it odd that Nissa could just play with Kefnet. What does having a conncection to the land have to do with manipulating a god?
I think one major flaw of the writers is pacing. I like Bolas, but it's been almost eight years and we still have no idea why he manipulated the Eldrazi release
It's revealed in the art book spoilers discussed early. You'll probably be disappointed, it's not very exciting.
and yet the Gatewatch went from looking for Emrakul to finding her in the very next block.
That's probably because it was a originally a single block, not two blocks. Personally, I think any discussion of the story needs to also include the behind-the-scenes issues affecting the story.
And he's made this giant Eternal army, but why? He had already destroyed all of Amonkhet save for Naktamon by himself, why does he need an army? Is it because of Ugin? He didn't really need an army to defeat him last time? I don't know maybe I've become a little jaded over the last year that I'm looking at Magic with a more negative light than necessary.
Why did he need the Seekers of Carmot? The Skyward Eye? Marisi? Rakka Mar? Tezzeret? Sarkhan Vol? The Infinite Consortium? The Empire of Madara?
He can't be everywhere, and a unquestioning super army seems really useful for enforcing his will.
He can't be everywhere, and a unquestioning super army seems really useful for enforcing his will.
This borders on speculation but it would be interesting to see if the army does actually have a purpose: perhaps he wants to use it to get his as-yet-undocumented revenge on Clan Umezawa (and Wasitora's descendants) and reconquer Madara on Dominaria? It's a stretch, and this would require the assumption that he knows about Tezzeret's acquisition of the Planar Bridge's engine, but it would explain both a return to Dominaria and the apparent printing of Wasitora in Commander 2017.
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Lapsed DCI Rules Advisor - Retired from playing but still hanging around
I agree that there power levels are a bit over the top. I found it odd that Nissa could just play with Kefnet. What does having a conncection to the land have to do with manipulating a god?
I think one major flaw of the writers is pacing. I like Bolas, but it's been almost eight years and we still have no idea why he manipulated the Eldrazi release
It's revealed in the art book spoilers discussed early. You'll probably be disappointed, it's not very exciting.
and yet the Gatewatch went from looking for Emrakul to finding her in the very next block.
That's probably because it was a originally a single block, not two blocks. Personally, I think any discussion of the story needs to also include the behind-the-scenes issues affecting the story.
And he's made this giant Eternal army, but why? He had already destroyed all of Amonkhet save for Naktamon by himself, why does he need an army? Is it because of Ugin? He didn't really need an army to defeat him last time? I don't know maybe I've become a little jaded over the last year that I'm looking at Magic with a more negative light than necessary.
Why did he need the Seekers of Carmot? The Skyward Eye? Marisi? Rakka Mar? Tezzeret? Sarkhan Vol? The Infinite Consortium? The Empire of Madara?
He can't be everywhere, and a unquestioning super army seems really useful for enforcing his will.
I hadn't heard about the Eldrazi thing, to be honest that is super dumb and it seems like something that Wizards just wants us to forget about like the GS ball in Pokemon. And to be honest again you can argue that controling leylines could alter anything, but to me it's kind of a big leap. I think it harkens back to Tiro's arguement. I think they should have shown more of a learning curve if they wanted us to believe these things that Nissa could do. And I don't mean to be negative about Nissa I have a commander deck she leads that I love to play. I see your arguement about Bolas' minions, but I hope they reveal it's purpose before I die .
Heh. After reading about Jace's defeat and how the book spells it out, it makes me wonder if at somepoint during Amonkhet development, the Creative thought "Okay, okay, guys, we're sorry we're putting the Jacetice League under spotlight for too long, we'll cater back to people who likes old characters so here have the Gatewatch being stupicly manhandled my Nicol Bolas."
I mean, seriously, if that Jace's defeat passage really means what it says.... It's almost as pathetic as them completely failing to portray the Eldrazi as the eldritch horror they're supposed to be, and just trying to pander back to old Vorthoses by saying "Praise Nicol Bolas".
Yes, I know Bolas is powerful, but giving the Gatewatch such a STUPID exit still doesn't sit well with me. They are supposed to lose to Bolas, sure, but this feels like less of they lack skill and power and more like "Hail Bolas" all over again.
I agree. And even if new planes weren't awe-inspiring, it still doesn't explain how these NEO-walkers march right up to monarchs and deities within days of arriving on a plane just by virtue of being Planeswalkers. Let alone humiliate and defeat them? Makes me wonder how these characters could ever grow? If there's literally nothing for them to learn from, respect, or be defeated by other than each other? And the reason for all this overpowered, horrible Mary Sue writing is "because they have a spark" and then the spark is said to only allow them to traverse the planes?
They're Oldwalkers, then. That's really what it is.
When has this ever happened? I can sympathize with quite a bit of the grievances expressed here but this seems excessive and unfounded. If you have sources where this happens regularly, or at all, then I could get behind you on this, but I've personally never seen anything like what you complain about in the story.
So the Eldrazi's threat level just sunked even more....They were jsut lab rats to "test" Planewalkers.
Wizards really destroyed the Eldrazi's flavour din't they...
But of course. Didn't you know everything about this game is about Planeswalkers? Gods, Eldritch horror deities, even entire planes are just props for the Planeswalker soap opera, where they're the entire focus. With this sort of writing, every Planeswalker is a Mary Sue. The fact we couldn't even get Egypt World off the short list without it being Bolas World with an Egyptian veneer is enough evidence of that. I'm willing to grant Bolas is capable of such a feat though, but in the context of everything - just reprehensible. But the way BFZ and Ulamog/Kozilek were handled, Bolas's motives with Eldrazi, Razaketh etc. have been handled? The setup they gave Kiora against Thassa? The idea that Eldrazi titans are pushovers, but Ob Nixlis and Bolas deliver Gatewatch losses? SOI/EMN may very well be the only damn story actually handled rather well. And even then, Emrakul's entire release was orchestrated for… Planeswalkers.
It's just embarrassing. Just call them Oldwalkers already, then. Retcon the mending out. THe mending SHOULD have been a reason Planeswalkers are interesting - being diverse mages who can roam the planes, learning various magics, working hard to develop and hone their abilities through their travels. Being able to wander, escape, return places. It's disingenuous to say they're mages who happen to travel worlds while writing them like immortal gods who humble Eldrazi titans, actual gods, and are the only real heroes and villains of stories; roles that are handed to them right off the bat with minimal effort. It's absurd to me that just being a Planeswalker is the reason these MORTAL, SIMPLE MAGES WHO HAPPEN TO WALK WORLDS can march right up to heavily guarded monarchs in fortresses, head angels on their own turf and SKY-DWELLING DIVINITIES ruling over the natural order of an entire UNIVERSE like they would to a mailbox within hours or days of arriving on a foreign world they've only just experienced.
With that logic, an immigrant should just walk right up to President Trump's doorstep for dinner moments after landing in our airport from Cambodia with ease. Welcome! You can travel continents, therefore you must be exceptional!
Gone are the days of writing like Scott McGough and heroes like Toshi. Who earned their results and adapted to challenges.
I think you're forgetting that planeswalkers, both Old and Neo, have this attitude because they're keenly aware of the vast expanse of the multiverse. This by itself makes it difficult for a walker to really connect with a world that isn't their own unless they put in the effort or have serious motivation, and it's typically white walkers who do that.
When a planebound being like Rashmi, Drana or Kydele is exposed to the idea that there's something beyond their plane's bounds, they openly show wonder, fascination or awe. By stark contrast, it isn't anything special to walkers that have been around many places like the Gatewatch, Tezzeret and so on. It doesn't help that walkers aren't even supposed to be in worlds other than their own, but a glitch in the MTG Matrix called the spark lets them world-hop. Tamiyo even outright called planeswalkers "disasters with a point of view".
Planeswalkers and people with plane-hopping tech like the Planar Bridge and ye-olde planar portals are inherently a danger to the multiverse.
A lack of awe doesn't explain their power level or how leadership positions, leading star positions, authority or reward all come to them with absolute ease and with minimal consequence, if any at all. Or how they accomplish greater feats within days than the natives of that world themselves, always, for no other reason than being Planeswalkers, which in itself should only mean being able to traverse the planes. Explain how that entitles any of them to march up to or even overpower plane overlords like pushovers or outshine those who have lived in those universes for decades?
This really bothered me with Tezzeret somehow being at the top of the Consulate hierarchyin Kaladesh after having added nothing to that world to justify it. He could have introduced etherium or something and earned renown but nope just there to be an antagonist we know. At least with Bolas in amonkhet Bolas had to actually do something to get to be the God Pharoah.
I submit for the approval of the Vorthos council: Every time a walker has come up against a planar god they have died or nearly died. Nissa, Kiora, Elspeth, Ajani(if you count Bolas as a god)
Heh. After reading about Jace's defeat and how the book spells it out, it makes me wonder if at some point during Amonkhet development, the Creative thought "Okay, okay, guys, we're sorry we're putting the Jacetice League under spotlight for too long, we'll cater back to people who likes old characters so here have the Gatewatch being stupicly manhandled my Nicol Bolas."
I mean, seriously, if that Jace's defeat passage really means what it says.... It's almost as pathetic as them completely failing to portray the Eldrazi as the eldritch horror they're supposed to be, and just trying to pander back to old Vorthoses by saying "Praise Nicol Bolas".
Based on known R&D Timelines, the defeat would have been plotted out well before the Gatewatch forming was published in the story, so no.
Also, why does no one ever consider that the Eldrazi were also affected by the Mending? Emrakul's whole thing basically says it in blinking neon lights.
Yes, I know Bolas is powerful, but giving the Gatewatch such a STUPID exit still doesn't sit well with me. They are supposed to lose to Bolas, sure, but this feels like less of they lack skill and power and more like "Hail Bolas" all over again.
Gotta love the shifting goal posts.
Why is it a stupid exit? The Gatewatch are a bad team. Up until this point, they've only worked by luck or by powering through their teamwork problems. It makes complete sense that Bolas would simply dismantle them, because they can't just power through them.
Jace's defeat sounds weird on paper, but let's let it play out. I'm kind of sick of slightly inaccurate art book summaries causing so many complaints when by now we should know it's never exactly how things go down.
This really bothered me with Tezzeret somehow being at the top of the Consulate hierarchyin Kaladesh after having added nothing to that world to justify it. He could have introduced etherium or something and earned renown but nope just there to be an antagonist we know. At least with Bolas in amonkhet Bolas had to actually do something to get to be the God Pharoah.
Why would Tezzeret introduce Etherium to the world? His Etherium arm is a large part of the reason he's famous, and he's been on Kaladesh for at least six months (if not longer) gaining renown. We already know he has the skills of a gangster, and he likely bribed and coerced his way into the hierarchy to get the 'Head Judge' position. He wasn't in charge of the Consulate then, he was in charge of the Inventor's Fair. He mounted a coup following the Gatewatch's entry into his plans to accelerate the timetable on finishing the Planar Bridge.
I submit for the approval of the Vorthos council: Every time a walker has come up against a planar god they have died or nearly died. Nissa, Kiora, Elspeth, Ajani(if you count Bolas as a god)
So the Eldrazi's threat level just sunked even more....They were jsut lab rats to "test" Planewalkers.
Wizards really destroyed the Eldrazi's flavour din't they...
But of course. Didn't you know everything about this game is about Planeswalkers? Gods, Eldritch horror deities, even entire planes are just props for the Planeswalker soap opera, where they're the entire focus. With this sort of writing, every Planeswalker is a Mary Sue. The fact we couldn't even get Egypt World off the short list without it being Bolas World with an Egyptian veneer is enough evidence of that. I'm willing to grant Bolas is capable of such a feat though, but in the context of everything - just reprehensible. But the way BFZ and Ulamog/Kozilek were handled, Bolas's motives with Eldrazi, Razaketh etc. have been handled? The setup they gave Kiora against Thassa? The idea that Eldrazi titans are pushovers, but Ob Nixlis and Bolas deliver Gatewatch losses? SOI/EMN may very well be the only damn story actually handled rather well. And even then, Emrakul's entire release was orchestrated for… Planeswalkers.
It's just embarrassing. Just call them Oldwalkers already, then. Retcon the mending out. THe mending SHOULD have been a reason Planeswalkers are interesting - being diverse mages who can roam the planes, learning various magics, working hard to develop and hone their abilities through their travels. Being able to wander, escape, return places. It's disingenuous to say they're mages who happen to travel worlds while writing them like immortal gods who humble Eldrazi titans, actual gods, and are the only real heroes and villains of stories; roles that are handed to them right off the bat with minimal effort. It's absurd to me that just being a Planeswalker is the reason these MORTAL, SIMPLE MAGES WHO HAPPEN TO WALK WORLDS can march right up to heavily guarded monarchs in fortresses, head angels on their own turf and SKY-DWELLING DIVINITIES ruling over the natural order of an entire UNIVERSE like they would to a mailbox within hours or days of arriving on a foreign world they've only just experienced.
With that logic, an immigrant should just walk right up to President Trump's doorstep for dinner moments after landing in our airport from Cambodia with ease. Welcome! You can travel continents, therefore you must be exceptional!
Gone are the days of writing like Scott McGough and heroes like Toshi. Who earned their results and adapted to challenges.
I think you're forgetting that planeswalkers, both Old and Neo, have this attitude because they're keenly aware of the vast expanse of the multiverse. This by itself makes it difficult for a walker to really connect with a world that isn't their own unless they put in the effort or have serious motivation, and it's typically white walkers who do that.
When a planebound being like Rashmi, Drana or Kydele is exposed to the idea that there's something beyond their plane's bounds, they openly show wonder, fascination or awe. By stark contrast, it isn't anything special to walkers that have been around many places like the Gatewatch, Tezzeret and so on. It doesn't help that walkers aren't even supposed to be in worlds other than their own, but a glitch in the MTG Matrix called the spark lets them world-hop. Tamiyo even outright called planeswalkers "disasters with a point of view".
Planeswalkers and people with plane-hopping tech like the Planar Bridge and ye-olde planar portals are inherently a danger to the multiverse.
A lack of awe doesn't explain their power level or how leadership positions, leading star positions, authority or reward all come to them with absolute ease and with minimal consequence, if any at all. Or how they accomplish greater feats within days than the natives of that world themselves, always, for no other reason than being Planeswalkers, which in itself should only mean being able to traverse the planes. Explain how that entitles any of them to march up to or even overpower plane overlords like pushovers or outshine those who have lived in those universes for decades?
This really bothered me with Tezzeret somehow being at the top of the Consulate hierarchyin Kaladesh after having added nothing to that world to justify it. He could have introduced etherium or something and earned renown but nope just there to be an antagonist we know. At least with Bolas in amonkhet Bolas had to actually do something to get to be the God Pharoah.
Exactly. I'm pleased someone understands my point. And at least Bolas has the power to back up such feats.
So I wonder if the Scarab God and the Locust God live through this? Might be the few strings that hold Amonkhet together.
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We got a few new pages from the entertainment weekly preview, one of those pages mentions something new for me, the gods have cartouches too, this is the first time we heard of this, or am I missing something?
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Thanks to DarkNightCavalier from Heroes of the Plane Studios for this sick Signature.
We got a few new pages from the entertainment weekly preview, one of those pages mentions something new for me, the gods have cartouches too, this is the first time we heard of this, or am I missing something?
I believe this is the first we're hearing of them, as I don't recall them being mentioned in the flashback story. That said, it's yet to be seen if that's actually the case, or something that got changed in the official story.
I will say I'm very much not a fan of the long-awaited answer to why Bolas freed the Eldrazi being, essentially, 'to see what would happen'.
As for planes being trashed, it's amazing seeing how many people view it in completely different directions. One day it's "Wizards doesn't have the guts to destroy their planes" and the next it's "Wizards needs to stop destroying their planes", lol.
If they are going to destroy a plane, they need to stop leaving hope alive so they can cash in on the inevitable Return to ... set. Zendikar should have been eaten by the Eldrazi. Only mostly destroying a plane is a cheap cop out.
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That was pretty interesting. But dropping a warship on me is cheating. Take it back!
If they are going to destroy a plane, they need to stop leaving hope alive so they can cash in on the inevitable Return to ... set. Zendikar should have been eaten by the Eldrazi. Only mostly destroying a plane is a cheap cop out.
I agree to a point. I don't mind the plane being saved as long as they don't have to dumb/water down the threat to accomplish that.
Channel + Fireball I get, but I got the impression that they had to water down Ulamog and Kozilek to some extent to prevent them from outright annihilating the plane. I was satisfied with Emrakul's depiction in Innistrad though.
For anyone looking for the art of the Scorpion guy getting got, Puncturing Blow has the scene you're looking for. Side note: this answers all of bug gods very cleanly. I guess you just need to jam an obelisk through their chest to stop the regeneration lol
If they are going to destroy a plane, they need to stop leaving hope alive so they can cash in on the inevitable Return to ... set. Zendikar should have been eaten by the Eldrazi. Only mostly destroying a plane is a cheap cop out.
This, even more so if you consider the existence of Ixalan. Wizards said they made a mistake by not expanding on what people liked about original Zendikar (the "adventure" stuff). Ixalan, at least so far, seems to be the repurposed "adventure" plane, so there really wasn't a big reason to keep Zendikar around.
Based on the title in the book, it's a Crumbling Necropolis reprint
Which apparently was replaced very late in the process (the name for the replacement design respects alphabetical order - probably because slots were already locked in).
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
I think the ONE reason that Bolas didn't continue his operation on Amonkhet was...
It's not sustainable.
Young people dying prematurely all the time, instead of copulating they train and fight and kill, how long would a society like that persist? Hapatra was consider old at the age of 35. Bolas merely utilized the culture and natural phenomenon on this plane to his advantage, and discard it when it's not longer useful.
Remember Bolas is a 15,000 year old dragon with plans for countless world. Mortals may consider a whole plane precious, to him it has always been expendable (it's not his to begin with, anyway). Bolas would burn down a forest as long as it could create a spoon that fits his hand, especially if it's a forest he usurped. And what is 60 year to an immortal dragon?
It's like the poor criticizing a billionaire for throwing car after car away for the newest product, never realize that what they see expensive were mere pocket change for the billionaire. Bolas is that billionaire, Amonkhet and any world and life he wants to corrupt means nothing to him.
3 days of preparation on Amonkhet, now Bolas has an army that would last a LOT longer. It's full profit and no loss, destroying Amonkhet is just for fun and giggle, which he fully entitles.
EDIT: And, to demonstrate a comparison, look at how Ugin being indifferent of the plight of the Zendikari, focusing entirely on his own amusement with the Eldrazi, and you'd know that for someone so powerful and elderly, mortals lives and moral standards are insignificant.
I buy Bolas releasing the eldrazi as an experiment. If you want to gather pw in one area a massive extraplanar threat is probably the best way to do. It also shows what kind of response there would be to such a threat (Bolas himself being one). There's no danger to Bolas since he can just pw away from any plane the titans come to (we know he wont care about a plane dying). Also, last and most importantly, Bolas is a dick. Even if he thought he'd already killed Ugin he probably got a kick out of undoing all the spirit dragon's work. I wouldn't mind there being more reasons for him to release the titans but if this is it I can buy it.
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I can see where you are coming from for characters like Sorin, Lilliana, and Bolas, but the more mortal planeswalker I think would. And how long do you think they are staying on these planes? Even Mirrodin, Esper, and Kaladesh are different culturaly that you could spend time to find out about them. For Mirrodin metal is just a part of their skin, for Esper it is almost a spiritual form of seeking perfection, and for Kaladesh it is a means to creativity. Lets say Saheeli traveled to Esper, I think there would be enough for her to feel at home and be in awe of the differences. And for non-Gatewatch characters what would be the point of planeswalking at all if not for discovery? Why wouldn't they just find the plane that feels the most like home and stay there?
They're Oldwalkers, then. That's really what it is.
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To be fair to Bolas, there aren't a lot of inter-planar threats you could engineer to get the whole experiment-thing running and while he has the upper hand now, fact remains it was that very plan (release the Eldrazi) that successfully got the Gatewatch on his tail that fast, which means it was quite a bad plan, Bolas was just too powerful he could ignore the consequences altogether. If someone actually more powerful than Bolas did the exact same thing, Bolas might have screwed himself up instead because he was curious. You could say that Bolas planned the "leak" deliberately so he could crush aspiring heroes, but considering he's still playing around by not killing any of the Gatewatch before they could planeswalk away (he should be able to, honestly), I'm more inclined this is just him being careless because he can (which is the typical villain ball... but what can we do?)
Anyway, I think Tezzeret's foray onto New Phyrexia was in a similar vein of "interplanar threats" Bolas wanted to observe and make use of from a distance. It probably fell off his radar (probably due to Tezz's own scheming) some where along the line.
Bolas may have most definitely won here, but it was just due to sheer power and it doesn't really add to his value as a villain (other than being powerful), especially with the whole Eternals plan here being stilled muddled up, we can't even tell what was his goals and hence his feats of power seem to contribute to nothing (other than the show of power we already know he has).
Of course, all this is based on the information we have and the artbook tends to deviate from the story a bit (and not tell us the precise details of the ending), so it's just my opinion based on what we know now.
I agree that there power levels are a bit over the top. I found it odd that Nissa could just play with Kefnet. What does having a conncection to the land have to do with manipulating a god?
I think one major flaw of the writers is pacing. I like Bolas, but it's been almost eight years and we still have no idea why he manipulated the Eldrazi release and yet the Gatewatch went from looking for Emrakul to finding her in the very next block. And he's made this giant Eternal army, but why? He had already destroyed all of Amonkhet save for Naktamon by himself, why does he need an army? Is it because of Ugin? He didn't really need an army to defeat him last time? I don't know maybe I've become a little jaded over the last year that I'm looking at Magic with a more negative light than necessary.
It's revealed in the art book spoilers discussed early. You'll probably be disappointed, it's not very exciting.
That's probably because it was a originally a single block, not two blocks. Personally, I think any discussion of the story needs to also include the behind-the-scenes issues affecting the story.
Why did he need the Seekers of Carmot? The Skyward Eye? Marisi? Rakka Mar? Tezzeret? Sarkhan Vol? The Infinite Consortium? The Empire of Madara?
He can't be everywhere, and a unquestioning super army seems really useful for enforcing his will.
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This borders on speculation but it would be interesting to see if the army does actually have a purpose: perhaps he wants to use it to get his as-yet-undocumented revenge on Clan Umezawa (and Wasitora's descendants) and reconquer Madara on Dominaria? It's a stretch, and this would require the assumption that he knows about Tezzeret's acquisition of the Planar Bridge's engine, but it would explain both a return to Dominaria and the apparent printing of Wasitora in Commander 2017.
I hadn't heard about the Eldrazi thing, to be honest that is super dumb and it seems like something that Wizards just wants us to forget about like the GS ball in Pokemon. And to be honest again you can argue that controling leylines could alter anything, but to me it's kind of a big leap. I think it harkens back to Tiro's arguement. I think they should have shown more of a learning curve if they wanted us to believe these things that Nissa could do. And I don't mean to be negative about Nissa I have a commander deck she leads that I love to play. I see your arguement about Bolas' minions, but I hope they reveal it's purpose before I die .
I mean, seriously, if that Jace's defeat passage really means what it says.... It's almost as pathetic as them completely failing to portray the Eldrazi as the eldritch horror they're supposed to be, and just trying to pander back to old Vorthoses by saying "Praise Nicol Bolas".
Yes, I know Bolas is powerful, but giving the Gatewatch such a STUPID exit still doesn't sit well with me. They are supposed to lose to Bolas, sure, but this feels like less of they lack skill and power and more like "Hail Bolas" all over again.
Also, why does no one ever consider that the Eldrazi were also affected by the Mending? Emrakul's whole thing basically says it in blinking neon lights.
Gotta love the shifting goal posts.
Why is it a stupid exit? The Gatewatch are a bad team. Up until this point, they've only worked by luck or by powering through their teamwork problems. It makes complete sense that Bolas would simply dismantle them, because they can't just power through them.
Jace's defeat sounds weird on paper, but let's let it play out. I'm kind of sick of slightly inaccurate art book summaries causing so many complaints when by now we should know it's never exactly how things go down.
Why would Tezzeret introduce Etherium to the world? His Etherium arm is a large part of the reason he's famous, and he's been on Kaladesh for at least six months (if not longer) gaining renown. We already know he has the skills of a gangster, and he likely bribed and coerced his way into the hierarchy to get the 'Head Judge' position. He wasn't in charge of the Consulate then, he was in charge of the Inventor's Fair. He mounted a coup following the Gatewatch's entry into his plans to accelerate the timetable on finishing the Planar Bridge.
See also: Jace/Tamiyo and Avacyn.
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[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Thanks to DarkNightCavalier from Heroes of the Plane Studios for this sick Signature.
I'm happy for the guy.
I believe this is the first we're hearing of them, as I don't recall them being mentioned in the flashback story. That said, it's yet to be seen if that's actually the case, or something that got changed in the official story.
If they are going to destroy a plane, they need to stop leaving hope alive so they can cash in on the inevitable Return to ... set. Zendikar should have been eaten by the Eldrazi. Only mostly destroying a plane is a cheap cop out.
I agree to a point. I don't mind the plane being saved as long as they don't have to dumb/water down the threat to accomplish that.
Channel + Fireball I get, but I got the impression that they had to water down Ulamog and Kozilek to some extent to prevent them from outright annihilating the plane. I was satisfied with Emrakul's depiction in Innistrad though.
"Kiora is the Aquaman of planeswalkers."
"Useless and everyone pretends to like her?"
Which apparently was replaced very late in the process (the name for the replacement design respects alphabetical order - probably because slots were already locked in).
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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It's not sustainable.
Young people dying prematurely all the time, instead of copulating they train and fight and kill, how long would a society like that persist? Hapatra was consider old at the age of 35. Bolas merely utilized the culture and natural phenomenon on this plane to his advantage, and discard it when it's not longer useful.
Remember Bolas is a 15,000 year old dragon with plans for countless world. Mortals may consider a whole plane precious, to him it has always been expendable (it's not his to begin with, anyway). Bolas would burn down a forest as long as it could create a spoon that fits his hand, especially if it's a forest he usurped. And what is 60 year to an immortal dragon?
It's like the poor criticizing a billionaire for throwing car after car away for the newest product, never realize that what they see expensive were mere pocket change for the billionaire. Bolas is that billionaire, Amonkhet and any world and life he wants to corrupt means nothing to him.
3 days of preparation on Amonkhet, now Bolas has an army that would last a LOT longer. It's full profit and no loss, destroying Amonkhet is just for fun and giggle, which he fully entitles.
EDIT: And, to demonstrate a comparison, look at how Ugin being indifferent of the plight of the Zendikari, focusing entirely on his own amusement with the Eldrazi, and you'd know that for someone so powerful and elderly, mortals lives and moral standards are insignificant.
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