Loyalty counter removal is a cost for the activation of the - abilities and not the abilities themselves removing the counters, so with that wording, his card wouldn't stop that if I'm not mistaken.
I agree that The Immortal Sun will have a planeswalker-centric ability due to it (presumably) driving the planeswalk lock on the plane.
Beyond the activation cost, when has a planeswalker ever had an ability that removed Loyalty counters from a(nother) planeswalker you control (aside from direct damage, which, why would you be aiming it at your own planeswalker?).
Ertai Planeswalker's own analysis/stated goal of the affect was that Loyalty only ever goes up.
This way, when it comes to loyalty counters, the only way is up so Planeswalkers never leave the battlefield. however, the can still be killed (destruction or damage) and the card remains balanced since you cannot activate abilities you have not accumulated enough counters for yet.
That would preclude removing loyalty counters as payment. Either the ability doesn't work as intended (it doesn't stop removal of Loyalty counters as costs, thus Loyalty does go down) or is insanely broken.
This isn't really relevant to the topic though, so I apologize from the derailment. On Topic-wise. I'm really looking forward to tomorrow's (assumed) Vampire story. I'm hoping we get some nice moral grey from at least one of the legends. (Arguel or Mavren Fein* most likely, as having a title like "Butcher of Magan" strong indicates Vona won't be particularly relatable/palatable.)
EDIT:* I'm forever reading/writing his name as Marvin...
For the record: I did mean to be able to ultimate every turn if your opponent lets you get to that point. I don't think it would be OP, as we're talking about something that takes every PW so far at least 3 turns of using a + ability.
Does standard need a BW walker? Saint Elenda gone missing after pursuing the Sun in a dangerously guarded golden city in order to be its safekeeper sounds like a planeswalk to me.
Given that Bolas is after it while simultaneously assembling a big undead army makes me think that it is a device that allows non-planeswalkers to planeswalk. Perhaps Elenda is gone simply because he planeswalked somewhere else but, lacking a true spark, can't get back. Wherever he is, if there's blood there, he might still live. Old age is not a problem.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The secret to enjoyable Commander games is not winning first, but losing last.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
That indeed the knights of the sun empire dislike to kill and think its clumsy way to win.
So they're an Empire, but an Empire that doesn't kill anyone, not even the bloodsuckers and lawless robbers threatening the very survival of their nation?
Also, how do they plan to conquer the merfolk lands? By asking politely if they can move to another river? They may not like to kill but they surely have to, unless their enemy are eaten by the dinos and the sun empire warriors go like "Well, technically I didn't kill him, sure my dino bite his head off, but I didn't touch him, so, yeah, I don't kill people."
Conversion/indoctrination, deportation, and imprisonment/internment all work as ways to conquer without killing (at least not doing so initially or directly).
Do note though that it is specifically the knights who are adverse to killing in order to achieve victory. Other members of the empire likely hold other opinions on the matter.
That indeed the knights of the sun empire dislike to kill and think its clumsy way to win.
So they're an Empire, but an Empire that doesn't kill anyone, not even the bloodsuckers and lawless robbers threatening the very survival of their nation?
Also, how do they plan to conquer the merfolk lands? By asking politely if they can move to another river? They may not like to kill but they surely have to, unless their enemy are eaten by the dinos and the sun empire warriors go like "Well, technically I didn't kill him, sure my dino bite his head off, but I didn't touch him, so, yeah, I don't kill people."
Conversion/indoctrination, deportation, and imprisonment/internment all work as ways to conquer without killing (at least not doing so initially or directly).
Do note though that it is specifically the knights who are adverse to killing in order to achieve victory. Other members of the empire likely hold other opinions on the matter.
For context the player guide has that info under Huatli section saying why she doesn't like killing and dose indeed say only the knights dislike killing, no mention of the other members of the sun empire view.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I'm really liking the Ixalan story. This week, the big selling point for me is the way they're fleshing out Vraska. Pride of the Kraul started to turn her from a mysterious minor antagonist to a sympathetic minor antagonist, and now she seems to be well on her way to making the jump to full-fledged hero of another story.
Also, Jace is definitely blue to the core. Even without his memories, he's guzzling that blue raspberry lemonade Kool-Aid by the pitcher, and passing it around to anyone who's thirsty.
It is almost as dumb when the pendulum swings towards the other extreme as it would be if they were to make them stereotypical sacrificial mayans.
You may think you believe this, but I don’t think you really do. Unless of course you also had an issue with the pyramids, Exodus plagues, and afterlife themes of Amonkhet (and the gratuitous use of mummies, mummies everywhere); the werewolves, witches, and vampires of Innistrad; or the gods, heroes, and oracles of Greek-inspired Theros — other such “cliches.”
When it comes to stories derived from Aztec civilization, sacrifice is not a "tired trope," or some mere pop-culture cliché. Human sacrifice was central to the Aztecs’ cosmic view, and how they understood themselves in relation to their gods and the entire world. It provided much of the fuel for their wars and expansion; if the gods did not have blood, the cosmos would literally fall apart, and it was by far more preferable to sacrifice defeated enemies and captives than their own brethren. Human sacrifice wasn’t just part of their universe—it was a core mechanic of their religious and political existence.
Make no mistake—while the Aztecs had a vibrant, remarkable, and in many ways advanced culture, they were also as violent and oppressive as any other empire of their time. And empires are, by their very nature, violent, exploitative, and oppressive. As such, the Sun Empire being “An Empire inspired by the Aztecs, only they don’t kill anyone” feels utterly false on both the "Empire" and "Aztec" accounts. It’s fantasy, so you can really do whatever the hell you want—give them rocket ships if you feel like it, or hell, dinosaurs—but keep in mind that when you draw on particular influences, those influences do come with historical/cultural baggage and certain associated characteristics and expectations.
I'm going to go out on a limb: it feels like Wizards was trying to be sensitive in drawing inspiration from an ancient indigenous culture, but in seeking a portrayal sympathetic to modern sensibilities, handled the project with kid-gloves and flat out over-corrected. Personally, I think it would have been much better if Wizards had kept the sacrificial element for their pseudo-Aztec Empire, and still played them as "the good guys under threat from foreign invaders." You can totally admire the good in a culture while recognizing the bad.
When it comes to stories derived from Aztec civilization, sacrifice is not a "tired trope," or some mere pop-culture cliché. Human sacrifice was central to the Aztecs’ cosmic view, and how they understood themselves in relation to their gods and the entire world. It provided much of the fuel for their wars and expansion; if the gods did not have blood, the cosmos would literally fall apart, and it was by far more preferable to sacrifice defeated enemies and captives than their own brethren. Human sacrifice wasn’t just part of their universe—it was a core mechanic of their religious and political existence.
I think that preference to use captives and defeated enemies as sacrifices is where Wizards is getting the 'prefer not to kill to achieve victory' bit. It's kind of hard to cut out someone's still beating heart when they're dead, after all. Granted, they removed the eventual killing of the people they tried to take alive, but there's a basis.
It wasn't the vampires, pirates, or merfolk, and the dinosaurs don't have opposable thumbs.
Given how the explroation will uncover ancient Sun Empire cities or temples )don't remember where I read that I though on the plane page but not sure) it's was probably a (secret?) Aclazotz cult within the Sun Empire long ago, or just an abandonded structure made into a temple to Aclazotz by earlier discoverers.
Honestly, and this is just guesswork, I think it does not matter much for the story. Every worlds need something evil in it where the demons / bad come from and I think this is it for Ixalan. The card itself might be the only reference to it. Though, as I said, this is 100% speculation.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The secret to enjoyable Commander games is not winning first, but losing last.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
It is almost as dumb when the pendulum swings towards the other extreme as it would be if they were to make them stereotypical sacrificial mayans.
You may think you believe this, but I don’t think you really do. Unless of course you also had an issue with the pyramids, Exodus plagues, and afterlife themes of Amonkhet (and the gratuitous use of mummies, mummies everywhere); the werewolves, witches, and vampires of Innistrad; or the gods, heroes, and oracles of Greek-inspired Theros — other such “cliches.”
When it comes to stories derived from Aztec civilization, sacrifice is not a "tired trope," or some mere pop-culture cliché. Human sacrifice was central to the Aztecs’ cosmic view, and how they understood themselves in relation to their gods and the entire world. It provided much of the fuel for their wars and expansion; if the gods did not have blood, the cosmos would literally fall apart, and it was by far more preferable to sacrifice defeated enemies and captives than their own brethren. Human sacrifice wasn’t just part of their universe—it was a core mechanic of their religious and political existence.
Make no mistake—while the Aztecs had a vibrant, remarkable, and in many ways advanced culture, they were also as violent and oppressive as any other empire of their time. And empires are, by their very nature, violent, exploitative, and oppressive. As such, the Sun Empire being “An Empire inspired by the Aztecs, only they don’t kill anyone” feels utterly false on both the "Empire" and "Aztec" accounts. It’s fantasy, so you can really do whatever the hell you want—give them rocket ships if you feel like it, or hell, dinosaurs—but keep in mind that when you draw on particular influences, those influences do come with historical/cultural baggage and certain associated characteristics and expectations.
I'm going to go out on a limb: it feels like Wizards was trying to be sensitive in drawing inspiration from an ancient indigenous culture, but in seeking a portrayal sympathetic to modern sensibilities, handled the project with kid-gloves and flat out over-corrected. Personally, I think it would have been much better if Wizards had kept the sacrificial element for their pseudo-Aztec Empire, and still played them as "the good guys under threat from foreign invaders." You can totally admire the good in a culture while recognizing the bad.
I'll repeat myself, the guide says the knights of the empire dislike killing not they are unwilling. It doesn't say if this a trait the whole empire shares and with cards like Ashes of the Abhorrent, Raptor Companion, Pounce, Raging Swordtooth, Huatli's Snubhorn and Carnage Tyrant point to the rest of the Empire willing to kill. Or maybe death by dino isn't consider you being responsible for that death to the sun empire.
Context is everything. The human sacrifice element of Aztec culture was because (very simply put and to my understanding) they believed if they didn't the world would end. The religion of the Sun Empire doesn't have this, they worship dinosaurs as the apex of nature and see them as avatars of the sun. The same identity that the Aztec had with their gods the Sun Empire has instead with the dinosaurs and the Immortal Sun. Without that context you kind showing that the natives are just evil and blood thirsty. What would make sense is if the Sun Empire feeds their enemies to the dinosaurs, which it looks like some do from the above cards.
They also started this set off with conquistador vampires, there is already have a blood themed religious faction.
EDIT: Again I'll repeat the he guide also tell how they turned away the Brazen Coalition refugees, which drove them to piracy. To me, that is an pretty big negative trait of a culture.
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
You may think you believe this, but I don’t think you really do
How about you not tell me what I think.
You may think you believe this, but I don’t think you really do. Unless of course you also had an issue with the pyramids, Exodus plagues, and afterlife themes of Amonkhet (and the gratuitous use of mummies, mummies everywhere); the werewolves, witches, and vampires of Innistrad; or the gods, heroes, and oracles of Greek-inspired Theros — other such “cliches.”
When it comes to stories derived from Aztec civilization, sacrifice is not a "tired trope," or some mere pop-culture cliché.
And those things above aren't "TIRED OLD TROPES!"? Oh wait yes they are, they are just as Cliche and Stereotypical. Now I don't care of WOTC wants to be PC, whatever, until..it hurts the story line and "They don't ever kill people." actively hurts the story because it makes no sense.
I'm going to go out on a limb: it feels like Wizards was trying to be sensitive in drawing inspiration from an ancient indigenous culture, but in seeking a portrayal sympathetic to modern sensibilities, handled the project with kid-gloves and flat out over-corrected.
And that is my complaint, they over corrected so much because they were afraid of hurting someones fee fees and now we have a plot hole.
Or maybe death by dino isn't consider you being responsible for that death to the sun empire.
Considering that Warrior Poet Lady rides a carnivore I am willing to bet this is the "explanation" that we can expect.
Question: How does the story work with the Ixalan map? Because the two don't seen to line up.
First of all, looking at the map, I have no idea where the Great River with its nine tributaries is supposed to be.
But another thing I can't figure out: Chapter 4 (The Shapers) took place at The Primal Wellspring. On the map, that's marked way to the south. Kumena and Tishana heard the enemy ships arriving to the east, and raced to the coast to intercept them. As such, we can gather that they wrecked The Belligerent either somewhere in Queen's Bay or just north of The Conqueror's foothold.
So here's what I don't get. How did Jace and Vraska, sailing from The High and Dry way to the north, wind up that far south if their compass was pointing them toward Orazca?
(I know Wizards likes to avoid making maps for precisely this reason, to avoid geographical inconsistencies in their storytelling. But seriously, since they went through all that trouble to make a map this time, you'd think the creative team would take a bit more care in making it work with the story?)
Jace, reliving the childhood and adolescence he lost. Being burden-free reveals one's nature, this is perhaps who Jace truly is before he becomes edgy. Instead of hiding his feelings as if everyone is out there to betray him, no overthinking, just open up and let the tide takes its course.
Probably the best version of a blue mage; the Water-Blue that goes with the flow, maybe even Jaya Ballard would approve.
So here's what I don't get. How did Jace and Vraska, sailing from The High and Dry way to the north, wind up that far south if their compass was pointing them toward Orazca?
You have made a fairly large and incorrect assumption. The compass doesn't point directly towards Orazca, or Vraska would have found it already. Also with the vague description The Belligerent could have been trying to make land on any part of the eastern coast.
So here's what I don't get. How did Jace and Vraska, sailing from The High and Dry way to the north, wind up that far south if their compass was pointing them toward Orazca?
You have made a fairly large and incorrect assumption. The compass doesn't point directly towards Orazca, or Vraska would have found it already. Also with the vague description The Belligerent could have been trying to make land on any part of the eastern coast.
There was also apparently a loose gear in the compass. Right before the wreck there was a part where Jace took the compass apart and fixed it. Up to this point the compass very likely hasn't been functioning correctly, whatever exactly its real function even is.
Question: How does the story work with the Ixalan map? Because the two don't seen to line up.
First of all, looking at the map, I have no idea where the Great River with its nine tributaries is supposed to be.
But another thing I can't figure out: Chapter 4 (The Shapers) took place at The Primal Wellspring. On the map, that's marked way to the south. Kumena and Tishana heard the enemy ships arriving to the east, and raced to the coast to intercept them. As such, we can gather that they wrecked The Belligerent either somewhere in Queen's Bay or just north of The Conqueror's foothold.
So here's what I don't get. How did Jace and Vraska, sailing from The High and Dry way to the north, wind up that far south if their compass was pointing them toward Orazca?
(I know Wizards likes to avoid making maps for precisely this reason, to avoid geographical inconsistencies in their storytelling. But seriously, since they went through all that trouble to make a map this time, you'd think the creative team would take a bit more care in making it work with the story?)
Goig just with whay you said, couldn't ixalan be spherical like planet Earth? If you keep going north you will eventually end up on the south pole?
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The secret to enjoyable Commander games is not winning first, but losing last.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
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For the record: I did mean to be able to ultimate every turn if your opponent lets you get to that point. I don't think it would be OP, as we're talking about something that takes every PW so far at least 3 turns of using a + ability.
Given that Bolas is after it while simultaneously assembling a big undead army makes me think that it is a device that allows non-planeswalkers to planeswalk. Perhaps Elenda is gone simply because he planeswalked somewhere else but, lacking a true spark, can't get back. Wherever he is, if there's blood there, he might still live. Old age is not a problem.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
Conversion/indoctrination, deportation, and imprisonment/internment all work as ways to conquer without killing (at least not doing so initially or directly).
Do note though that it is specifically the knights who are adverse to killing in order to achieve victory. Other members of the empire likely hold other opinions on the matter.
For context the player guide has that info under Huatli section saying why she doesn't like killing and dose indeed say only the knights dislike killing, no mention of the other members of the sun empire view.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Also, Jace is definitely blue to the core. Even without his memories, he's guzzling that blue raspberry lemonade Kool-Aid by the pitcher, and passing it around to anyone who's thirsty.
RWU
GUB
WBR
URG
BGW
You may think you believe this, but I don’t think you really do. Unless of course you also had an issue with the pyramids, Exodus plagues, and afterlife themes of Amonkhet (and the gratuitous use of mummies, mummies everywhere); the werewolves, witches, and vampires of Innistrad; or the gods, heroes, and oracles of Greek-inspired Theros — other such “cliches.”
When it comes to stories derived from Aztec civilization, sacrifice is not a "tired trope," or some mere pop-culture cliché. Human sacrifice was central to the Aztecs’ cosmic view, and how they understood themselves in relation to their gods and the entire world. It provided much of the fuel for their wars and expansion; if the gods did not have blood, the cosmos would literally fall apart, and it was by far more preferable to sacrifice defeated enemies and captives than their own brethren. Human sacrifice wasn’t just part of their universe—it was a core mechanic of their religious and political existence.
Make no mistake—while the Aztecs had a vibrant, remarkable, and in many ways advanced culture, they were also as violent and oppressive as any other empire of their time. And empires are, by their very nature, violent, exploitative, and oppressive. As such, the Sun Empire being “An Empire inspired by the Aztecs, only they don’t kill anyone” feels utterly false on both the "Empire" and "Aztec" accounts. It’s fantasy, so you can really do whatever the hell you want—give them rocket ships if you feel like it, or hell, dinosaurs—but keep in mind that when you draw on particular influences, those influences do come with historical/cultural baggage and certain associated characteristics and expectations.
I'm going to go out on a limb: it feels like Wizards was trying to be sensitive in drawing inspiration from an ancient indigenous culture, but in seeking a portrayal sympathetic to modern sensibilities, handled the project with kid-gloves and flat out over-corrected. Personally, I think it would have been much better if Wizards had kept the sacrificial element for their pseudo-Aztec Empire, and still played them as "the good guys under threat from foreign invaders." You can totally admire the good in a culture while recognizing the bad.
I think that preference to use captives and defeated enemies as sacrifices is where Wizards is getting the 'prefer not to kill to achieve victory' bit. It's kind of hard to cut out someone's still beating heart when they're dead, after all. Granted, they removed the eventual killing of the people they tried to take alive, but there's a basis.
Who do you think built the Temple of Aclazotz?
It wasn't the vampires, pirates, or merfolk, and the dinosaurs don't have opposable thumbs.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Dwarves, Ninja Dwarves who have been hiding in the jungles the entire time.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
Honestly, and this is just guesswork, I think it does not matter much for the story. Every worlds need something evil in it where the demons / bad come from and I think this is it for Ixalan. The card itself might be the only reference to it. Though, as I said, this is 100% speculation.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
I'll repeat myself, the guide says the knights of the empire dislike killing not they are unwilling. It doesn't say if this a trait the whole empire shares and with cards like Ashes of the Abhorrent, Raptor Companion, Pounce, Raging Swordtooth, Huatli's Snubhorn and Carnage Tyrant point to the rest of the Empire willing to kill. Or maybe death by dino isn't consider you being responsible for that death to the sun empire.
Context is everything. The human sacrifice element of Aztec culture was because (very simply put and to my understanding) they believed if they didn't the world would end. The religion of the Sun Empire doesn't have this, they worship dinosaurs as the apex of nature and see them as avatars of the sun. The same identity that the Aztec had with their gods the Sun Empire has instead with the dinosaurs and the Immortal Sun. Without that context you kind showing that the natives are just evil and blood thirsty. What would make sense is if the Sun Empire feeds their enemies to the dinosaurs, which it looks like some do from the above cards.
They also started this set off with conquistador vampires, there is already have a blood themed religious faction.
EDIT: Again I'll repeat the he guide also tell how they turned away the Brazen Coalition refugees, which drove them to piracy. To me, that is an pretty big negative trait of a culture.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
How about you not tell me what I think.
And those things above aren't "TIRED OLD TROPES!"? Oh wait yes they are, they are just as Cliche and Stereotypical. Now I don't care of WOTC wants to be PC, whatever, until..it hurts the story line and "They don't ever kill people." actively hurts the story because it makes no sense.
And that is my complaint, they over corrected so much because they were afraid of hurting someones fee fees and now we have a plot hole.
Considering that Warrior Poet Lady rides a carnivore I am willing to bet this is the "explanation" that we can expect.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
Huatli Jade Chan
Kumena = Shendu
Vraska = Viper
omg who is tohru
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
and one more thing, Who is Uncle?
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
First of all, looking at the map, I have no idea where the Great River with its nine tributaries is supposed to be.
But another thing I can't figure out: Chapter 4 (The Shapers) took place at The Primal Wellspring. On the map, that's marked way to the south. Kumena and Tishana heard the enemy ships arriving to the east, and raced to the coast to intercept them. As such, we can gather that they wrecked The Belligerent either somewhere in Queen's Bay or just north of The Conqueror's foothold.
So here's what I don't get. How did Jace and Vraska, sailing from The High and Dry way to the north, wind up that far south if their compass was pointing them toward Orazca?
(I know Wizards likes to avoid making maps for precisely this reason, to avoid geographical inconsistencies in their storytelling. But seriously, since they went through all that trouble to make a map this time, you'd think the creative team would take a bit more care in making it work with the story?)
Probably the best version of a blue mage; the Water-Blue that goes with the flow, maybe even Jaya Ballard would approve.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
There was also apparently a loose gear in the compass. Right before the wreck there was a part where Jace took the compass apart and fixed it. Up to this point the compass very likely hasn't been functioning correctly, whatever exactly its real function even is.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.