Maybe.... she starts to see Jace as a lover? The flavour text is rather pointing that she needs him to escape OR Jace and Vraska become friends in one battle.
I'd love to read the story when, back on Ravnica, Vraska and Liliana go all Brandy and Monica "The boy is mine" over Jace.
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The secret to enjoyable Commander games is not winning first, but losing last.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
So far there's nothing particularly clear. We know that the major players are after Orazca. The River Heralds are trying to protect Orazca. This means that they are the "antagonists" at this point but honestly no one side comes off as particularly villainous.
I would say Kumena and Angrath are two characters who certainly come across as villainous.
Though Angrath, from what we've seen in the story so far, seems more pitiful than anything else. Dangerous, true, and likely a force to be reckoned with, but given his somewhat pathetic showing in the last fiction, I don't think they're setting him up to carry a major villain role, at least not by himself. Jace, Vraska, and Angrath all need to get off the plane, and I can see them all working together toward that end.
Kumena, on the other hand, does in fact seem sinister. The River Heralds as a faction don't seem at all evil, but Kumena appears to be enacting his own plans, contrary to the River Heralds' stated purpose.
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"I'd rather die speaking the truth than live a lie." --Gix, to Yawgmoth (pre-Phyrexia)
I have to wonder if we won't get a traditional villain in Rivals. The set name indicates to me we'll get the various factions racing to find/use the Immortal Sun, with some having really bad intentions on getting it.
On that note, if the Sun is what Bolas sent Vraska to Ixalan for, I bet it is/ can be used as a power source he needs for the Planar Bridge.
Alison made it clear in the Ixalan podcast that everyone is searching the immortal sun for their own reasons and that all the factions all hate each other. To me that sounds like there's no clear villain. It's just different people wanting the same thing and getting into conflict as a result. Which I actually like a lot.
It's funny, all it would take is one guy knowing how to cast Copy Artifact and suddenly the entire conflict of the block would be voided instantly. Immortal Suns for everybody!
It's funny, all it would take is one guy knowing how to cast Copy Artifact and suddenly the entire conflict of the block would be voided instantly. Immortal Suns for everybody!
I would say that one does not simply copy a legendary artifact, but because the legend rule doesn't work that way anymore, they can have at it.
Well obviously you have to set up a mirror gallery first.
Might be a bit complicated.
Copying artifacts is an old, once restricted type of magic that these newbies know not of.
At first, I was surprised at the number of female pirates on Ixalan. Sure, there were a few female pirates in real life, but on Ixalam they make up at least half of all pirates, which isn't realistic at all. It's even stranger when you realize they didn't give the vampires the same PC treatment: virtually all the conquistadors are male, just like they were in real life. What gives?
But then I realized why this all makes sense: the pirates are refugees. Unlike in real life, where pirates were just a minority of sailors, Ixalan's pirates consist of all the non-vampires (save a few humans that are still being forced to serve the Dusk Legion) from Torrezon. All of them. All races and both sexes.
That still doesn't explain why 80% of pirate captains are female. We all know that sexism was still running rampant in the time period Ixalan was based on, so even if a lot of women were pirates, they would still have difficulty getting positions of leadership. I could see Vraska taking over by the virtue of being a deadly and intimidating gorgon, but that doesn't excuse four out of five planebound captains/admirals being female. So that part is revisionist history and perhaps overly PC. But the presence of so many female pirates in general makes a lot of sense.
As for the block's villain(s), I agree that Vraska has gone full anti-hero, so Angrath and Kumena are far more likely to take on antagonistic roles, especially in the second set. However, the villain I have my eye on is Arguel and the bat god whose name I don't care to look up or try to spell (I suspect that the latter will end up possessing the former).
Still, I'm really hoping for a "every faction is terrible in its own way" type of story, much like Tarkir and Ravnica. In general faction sets tend to result in storylines that are less black-and-white, which is a win in my book (New Phyrexia is obviously the exception to this).
The whole "Sun Empire doesn't kill people" thing, however, makes me skeptical that this block will be as morally grey as Tarkir, which would be disappointing. We haven't had a good moral debate since SOI, and that's a shame. Bolas and Tezzeret could not possibly be justified in their actions, which in my opinion makes those storylines much less interesting and compelling than something morally grey like SOI or Tarkir.
At first, I was surprised at the number of female pirates on Ixalan. Sure, there were a few female pirates in real life, but on Ixalam they make up at least half of all pirates, which isn't realistic at all. It's even stranger when you realize they didn't give the vampires the same PC treatment: virtually all the conquistadors are male, just like they were in real life. What gives?
But then I realized why this all makes sense: the pirates are refugees. Unlike in real life, where pirates were just a minority of sailors, Ixalan's pirates consist of all the non-vampires (save a few humans that are still being forced to serve the Dusk Legion) from Torrezon. All of them. All races and both sexes.
That still doesn't explain why 80% of pirate captains are female. We all know that sexism was still running rampant in the time period Ixalan was based on, so even if a lot of women were pirates, they would still have difficulty getting positions of leadership. I could see Vraska taking over by the virtue of being a deadly and intimidating gorgon, but that doesn't excuse four out of five planebound captains/admirals being female. So that part is revisionist history and perhaps overly PC. But the presence of so many female pirates in general makes a lot of sense.
As for the block's villain(s), I agree that Vraska has gone full anti-hero, so Angrath and Kumena are far more likely to take on antagonistic roles, especially in the second set. However, the villain I have my eye on is Arguel and the bat god whose name I don't care to look up or try to spell (I suspect that the latter will end up possessing the former).
Still, I'm really hoping for a "every faction is terrible in its own way" type of story, much like Tarkir and Ravnica. In general faction sets tend to result in storylines that are less black-and-white, which is a win in my book (New Phyrexia is obviously the exception to this).
The whole "Sun Empire doesn't kill people" thing, however, makes me skeptical that this block will be as morally grey as Tarkir, which would be disappointing. We haven't had a good moral debate since SOI, and that's a shame. Bolas and Tezzeret could not possibly be justified in their actions, which in my opinion makes those storylines much less interesting and compelling than something morally grey like SOI or Tarkir.
Is it so hard to believe that Ixalan just isn't sexist? There's no reason that, just because when we had pirates we were sexist, means that it has to be the same on a fantasy world that has pirates.
At first, I was surprised at the number of female pirates on Ixalan. Sure, there were a few female pirates in real life, but on Ixalam they make up at least half of all pirates, which isn't realistic at all. It's even stranger when you realize they didn't give the vampires the same PC treatment: virtually all the conquistadors are male, just like they were in real life. What gives?
But then I realized why this all makes sense: the pirates are refugees. Unlike in real life, where pirates were just a minority of sailors, Ixalan's pirates consist of all the non-vampires (save a few humans that are still being forced to serve the Dusk Legion) from Torrezon. All of them. All races and both sexes.
Torrezon isn't all, or likely even mostly, vampires though. While the cards depict almost entirely vampires, that's a mechanical concession. The vampires are only the nobility, clergy, and the conquistadors (which seems to be a position of some measure of power within the military, not just a reference to military personnel in general). The rank and file of the military, as well as presumably the entire underclass/peasant class are humans.
From the concept sheets show at PAX:
"Their expeditions of discovery are lead by vampire conquistadors and priests, with human soldiers filling the rank and file and additional humans serving support roles as sailors and menial laborers."
The pirates are the remnants of the other kingdoms on Torrezon that the Legion conquered, not all the non-slave humans. It'd just be hard to have a mechanical "Vampire Tribe" when half of the cards would be humans, so their presence within the Legion is largely ignored.
Still, I'm really hoping for a "every faction is terrible in its own way" type of story, much like Tarkir and Ravnica. In general faction sets tend to result in storylines that are less black-and-white, which is a win in my book (New Phyrexia is obviously the exception to this).
The whole "Sun Empire doesn't kill people" thing, however, makes me skeptical that this block will be as morally grey as Tarkir, which would be disappointing. We haven't had a good moral debate since SOI, and that's a shame. Bolas and Tezzeret could not possibly be justified in their actions, which in my opinion makes those storylines much less interesting and compelling than something morally grey like SOI or Tarkir.
Agreed, both in that the Sun Empire/Huatli's nonviolence was cringy and forced, and that I'm hoping for a lot more grey area for all factions.
The whole "Sun Empire doesn't kill people" thing, however, makes me skeptical that this block will be as morally grey as Tarkir, which would be disappointing. We haven't had a good moral debate since SOI, and that's a shame. Bolas and Tezzeret could not possibly be justified in their actions, which in my opinion makes those storylines much less interesting and compelling than something morally grey like SOI or Tarkir.
Agreed, both in that the Sun Empire/Huatli's nonviolence was cringy and forced, and that I'm hoping for a lot more grey area for all factions.
Where are you guys getting this "The Sun Empire is nonviolent" idea from? All the last fiction said was that Huatli and her warriors managed to triumph in their last battle without any lives lost on either side. Engagements like this have happened in real life.
Just because they won a bloodless victory doesn't mean they don't fight bloody battles as well. They're an expansionist empire, after all, who command dinosaurs with names like "Carnage Tyrant."
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"I'd rather die speaking the truth than live a lie." --Gix, to Yawgmoth (pre-Phyrexia)
Where are you guys getting this "The Sun Empire is nonviolent" idea from? All the last fiction said was that Huatli and her warriors managed to triumph in their last battle without any lives lost on either side. Engagements like this have happened in real life.
Just because they won a bloodless victory doesn't mean they don't fight bloody battles as well. They're an expansionist empire, after all, who command dinosaurs with names like "Carnage Tyrant."
Agreed. All but the most bloodthirsty regimes generally recognize a bloodless victory as a noteworthy accomplishment by a warrior. "Not the most bloodthirsty" is a rather backhanded compliment. If anything, the second story set up Huatli as a hero, not the Sun Empire generally.
Where are you guys getting this "The Sun Empire is nonviolent" idea from? All the last fiction said was that Huatli and her warriors managed to triumph in their last battle without any lives lost on either side. Engagements like this have happened in real life.
Just because they won a bloodless victory doesn't mean they don't fight bloody battles as well. They're an expansionist empire, after all, who command dinosaurs with names like "Carnage Tyrant."
Agreed. All but the most bloodthirsty regimes generally recognize a bloodless victory as a noteworthy accomplishment by a warrior. "Not the most bloodthirsty" is a rather backhanded compliment. If anything, the second story set up Huatli as a hero, not the Sun Empire generally.
Agreed. Anyone else feeling a little suspicious about our good 'ole friend, the Sun Emperor?
I mean, as much as Hautli annoyed me at times, I still can't help but think she's being used by this guy.
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Wizards. listen. The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
Where are you guys getting this "The Sun Empire is nonviolent" idea from? All the last fiction said was that Huatli and her warriors managed to triumph in their last battle without any lives lost on either side. Engagements like this have happened in real life.
Just because they won a bloodless victory doesn't mean they don't fight bloody battles as well. They're an expansionist empire, after all, who command dinosaurs with names like "Carnage Tyrant."
Agreed. All but the most bloodthirsty regimes generally recognize a bloodless victory as a noteworthy accomplishment by a warrior. "Not the most bloodthirsty" is a rather backhanded compliment. If anything, the second story set up Huatli as a hero, not the Sun Empire generally.
Agreed. Anyone else feeling a little suspicious about our good 'ole friend, the Sun Emperor?
I mean, as much as Hautli annoyed me at times, I still can't help but think she's being used by this guy.
She's definitely being used by him. He's using the Warrior-Poet title as an incentive for her to find Orazca, a title he was basically refusing to give her before (at least that's how I see it), which is a pretty sketchy move IMO. He may genuinely like her, but she's still a means to an end in this situation.
Where are you guys getting this "The Sun Empire is nonviolent" idea from? All the last fiction said was that Huatli and her warriors managed to triumph in their last battle without any lives lost on either side. Engagements like this have happened in real life.
Just because they won a bloodless victory doesn't mean they don't fight bloody battles as well. They're an expansionist empire, after all, who command dinosaurs with names like "Carnage Tyrant."
Agreed. All but the most bloodthirsty regimes generally recognize a bloodless victory as a noteworthy accomplishment by a warrior. "Not the most bloodthirsty" is a rather backhanded compliment. If anything, the second story set up Huatli as a hero, not the Sun Empire generally.
Agreed. Anyone else feeling a little suspicious about our good 'ole friend, the Sun Emperor?
I mean, as much as Hautli annoyed me at times, I still can't help but think she's being used by this guy.
She's definitely being used by him. He's using the Warrior-Poet title as an incentive for her to find Orazca, a title he was basically refusing to give her before (at least that's how I see it), which is a pretty sketchy move IMO. He may genuinely like her, but she's still a means to an end in this situation.
He did say that he thought it was a fools' errand for an entire nation to go searching for a legend, not one person. I'm in agreement that he's got plans. If he really is quite expansionist, we could be seeing a "Lord Konda" sort of set up where he wants to make the Sun Empire unquestioned with a lost city he thinks will be the ultimate WMD/First Elspeth Emblem
The whole "Sun Empire doesn't kill people" thing, however, makes me skeptical that this block will be as morally grey as Tarkir, which would be disappointing. We haven't had a good moral debate since SOI, and that's a shame. Bolas and Tezzeret could not possibly be justified in their actions, which in my opinion makes those storylines much less interesting and compelling than something morally grey like SOI or Tarkir.
Agreed, both in that the Sun Empire/Huatli's nonviolence was cringy and forced, and that I'm hoping for a lot more grey area for all factions.
Where are you guys getting this "The Sun Empire is nonviolent" idea from? All the last fiction said was that Huatli and her warriors managed to triumph in their last battle without any lives lost on either side. Engagements like this have happened in real life.
Just because they won a bloodless victory doesn't mean they don't fight bloody battles as well. They're an expansionist empire, after all, who command dinosaurs with names like "Carnage Tyrant."
Nonviolent may not be the best word to describe it, cause martial combat is inherently violent, but when the story contains not one, but two instances where Huatli and Co deliberately avoid killing invaders it starts to feel forced and unnatural.
She and Intli had the element of surprise and a horde of dinosaurs at their disposal but instead just killing the pirates they burn their supplies and chase them off? Burning their supplies virtually guarantees that they'll HAVE to make a(nother) raid, likely against Sun Empire citizens, to resupply. By not simply crushing the pirates, they've now put their own citizens in danger.
That's simply not how you win a conflict, so it feels like WotC was trying too hard to say "These are the good guys!" and it feels contrived and artificial.
At first, I was surprised at the number of female pirates on Ixalan. Sure, there were a few female pirates in real life, but on Ixalam they make up at least half of all pirates, which isn't realistic at all. It's even stranger when you realize they didn't give the vampires the same PC treatment: virtually all the conquistadors are male, just like they were in real life. What gives?
But then I realized why this all makes sense: the pirates are refugees. Unlike in real life, where pirates were just a minority of sailors, Ixalan's pirates consist of all the non-vampires (save a few humans that are still being forced to serve the Dusk Legion) from Torrezon. All of them. All races and both sexes.
That still doesn't explain why 80% of pirate captains are female. We all know that sexism was still running rampant in the time period Ixalan was based on, so even if a lot of women were pirates, they would still have difficulty getting positions of leadership. I could see Vraska taking over by the virtue of being a deadly and intimidating gorgon, but that doesn't excuse four out of five planebound captains/admirals being female. So that part is revisionist history and perhaps overly PC. But the presence of so many female pirates in general makes a lot of sense.
As for the block's villain(s), I agree that Vraska has gone full anti-hero, so Angrath and Kumena are far more likely to take on antagonistic roles, especially in the second set. However, the villain I have my eye on is Arguel and the bat god whose name I don't care to look up or try to spell (I suspect that the latter will end up possessing the former).
Still, I'm really hoping for a "every faction is terrible in its own way" type of story, much like Tarkir and Ravnica. In general faction sets tend to result in storylines that are less black-and-white, which is a win in my book (New Phyrexia is obviously the exception to this).
The whole "Sun Empire doesn't kill people" thing, however, makes me skeptical that this block will be as morally grey as Tarkir, which would be disappointing. We haven't had a good moral debate since SOI, and that's a shame. Bolas and Tezzeret could not possibly be justified in their actions, which in my opinion makes those storylines much less interesting and compelling than something morally grey like SOI or Tarkir.
Is it so hard to believe that Ixalan just isn't sexist? There's no reason that, just because when we had pirates we were sexist, means that it has to be the same on a fantasy world that has pirates.
If it was a completely fantastical world, then sure. Same goes for the more science fiction-based worlds, because it makes sense for them to be more progressive. But when a world borrows very heavily from elements of a time period in our past, it's natural to assume that everything not explicitly different is about the same as was on Earth during that time. In Ixalan's case, it's based on about the 1500s, so while things that are obviously departures from that are fine (dinosaurs, vampires, magic), we kind of expect other things to line up with the time period. Even if it was just Vraska (whose species should make it easy to assume leadership regardless of gender roles) and one other female planebound captain, it wouldn't seem that out of place, but virtually every pirate with a leadership role is female, which has no basis in the actual history that Ixalan is based on.
On a different world with pirates that's heavier on fantasy or sci-fi than Ixalan, I wouldn't have a problem, but on a world where the pirates are based on real-world pirates from the real-world age of exploration, it just feels a bit off. It's so much that the pirates aren't sexist enough, because they did remove some of the more negative real-world aspects from all factions (like human sacrifice), it's just that real-world legendary pirates were almost invariably male, so not having a single one with a card in Ixalan doesn't feel very true to the source material. I guess there will be Angrath in the next set, but that's still a 3:1 ratio in favor of women (if not 4:1 or 5:1 since if we get more pirate legends in Rivals they will most likely be Vance and/or Parrish), when it should be 50/50 at the best if they're trying to be even a little historically accurate.
The whole "Sun Empire doesn't kill people" thing, however, makes me skeptical that this block will be as morally grey as Tarkir, which would be disappointing. We haven't had a good moral debate since SOI, and that's a shame. Bolas and Tezzeret could not possibly be justified in their actions, which in my opinion makes those storylines much less interesting and compelling than something morally grey like SOI or Tarkir.
Agreed, both in that the Sun Empire/Huatli's nonviolence was cringy and forced, and that I'm hoping for a lot more grey area for all factions.
Where are you guys getting this "The Sun Empire is nonviolent" idea from? All the last fiction said was that Huatli and her warriors managed to triumph in their last battle without any lives lost on either side. Engagements like this have happened in real life.
Just because they won a bloodless victory doesn't mean they don't fight bloody battles as well. They're an expansionist empire, after all, who command dinosaurs with names like "Carnage Tyrant."
Nonviolent may not be the best word to describe it, cause martial combat is inherently violent, but when the story contains not one, but two instances where Huatli and Co deliberately avoid killing invaders it starts to feel forced and unnatural.
She and Intli had the element of surprise and a horde of dinosaurs at their disposal but instead just killing the pirates they burn their supplies and chase them off? Burning their supplies virtually guarantees that they'll HAVE to make a(nother) raid, likely against Sun Empire citizens, to resupply. By not simply crushing the pirates, they've now put their own citizens in danger.
That's simply not how you win a conflict, so it feels like WotC was trying too hard to say "These are the good guys!" and it feels contrived and artificial.
My thoughts exactly. If it was just the vampire thing, maybe I could believe that it was just a happy coincidence that no one died, but with the pirates they were clearly pulling their punches against their own best interests. Why would they burn the supplies of the pirates with said pirates nearby and then just leave? Either fight the pirates off for good, or don't provoke them in the first place. Otherwise, you're going to get ambushed by the pirates, which is exactly what happened with Angrath.
Not only are nonlethal tactics historically inaccurate for an Aztec-inspired faction and just plain stupid as a war strategy, but it also would be impossible to implement because they're fighting with dinosaurs on their side. Even if the people don't want to kill anyone, the dinosaurs will anyway. And, as you said, it feels like they're trying too hard to set up the good guys and bad guys, when it could (and should) be more complicated than that.
That being said, it's still early in the story. Hopefully at some point in the story we will see Huatli and/or the rest of the Sun Empire actually try to kill their enemies the way they logically should. The cards at least show dinosaurs killing pirates and especially vampires, and although that's not necessarily at the direction of the humans, it still gives me some amount of hope. Hopefully the utter absurdity of a dinosaur-riding Aztec warriors who refuse to kill anyone will prevent the writers from actually attempting it in anything more than this one story to not-so-subtly introduce Huatli as a protagonist.
If it was just the vampire thing, maybe I could believe that it was just a happy coincidence that no one died, but with the pirates they were clearly pulling their punches against their own best interests. Why would they burn the supplies of the pirates with said pirates nearby and then just leave? Either fight the pirates off for good, or don't provoke them in the first place. Otherwise, you're going to get ambushed by the pirates, which is exactly what happened with Angrath.
Not only are nonlethal tactics historically inaccurate for an Aztec-inspired faction and just plain stupid as a war strategy, but it also would be impossible to implement because they're fighting with dinosaurs on their side. Even if the people don't want to kill anyone, the dinosaurs will anyway. And, as you said, it feels like they're trying too hard to set up the good guys and bad guys, when it could (and should) be more complicated than that.
...
Hopefully the utter absurdity of a dinosaur-riding Aztec warriors who refuse to kill anyone will prevent the writers from actually attempting it in anything more than this one story to not-so-subtly introduce Huatli as a protagonist.
If Creative does end up trying to sell the Sun Empire as a faction who avoids killing as a principle, even in the face of having their lands taken by murderous pirates and vampires, then the Sun Empire is too dumb to live and absolutely deserves to be overrun by conquistadors. It's unfortunate enough that they cut out all reference to human sacrifice (in the podcast they called it a "tired trope," but no, it was an essential characteristic of numerous pre-Columbian Mesoamerican religions, and no more "tired" than the mummies and Egyptian embalming we saw on Amonkhet), but if they pushed the Sun Empire as averse to killing, they'll be straining the credulity of their readers. So I don't think the writers will play that way--this was just an (admittedly ham-fisted) attempt to drive home Huatli as a white hat.
But as far as I'm concerned, Huatli's most egregious offense thus far was her feel-good prattling to that little girl about the nature of poetry. Anyone who has studied poetry outside a high school writing workshop can tell you that's completely ridiculous.
If it was just the vampire thing, maybe I could believe that it was just a happy coincidence that no one died, but with the pirates they were clearly pulling their punches against their own best interests. Why would they burn the supplies of the pirates with said pirates nearby and then just leave? Either fight the pirates off for good, or don't provoke them in the first place. Otherwise, you're going to get ambushed by the pirates, which is exactly what happened with Angrath.
Not only are nonlethal tactics historically inaccurate for an Aztec-inspired faction and just plain stupid as a war strategy, but it also would be impossible to implement because they're fighting with dinosaurs on their side. Even if the people don't want to kill anyone, the dinosaurs will anyway. And, as you said, it feels like they're trying too hard to set up the good guys and bad guys, when it could (and should) be more complicated than that.
...
Hopefully the utter absurdity of a dinosaur-riding Aztec warriors who refuse to kill anyone will prevent the writers from actually attempting it in anything more than this one story to not-so-subtly introduce Huatli as a protagonist.
If Creative does end up trying to sell the Sun Empire as a faction who avoids killing as a principle, even in the face of having their lands taken by murderous pirates and vampires, then the Sun Empire is too dumb to live and absolutely deserves to be overrun by conquistadors. It's unfortunate enough that they cut out all reference to human sacrifice (in the podcast they called it a "tired trope," but no, it was an essential characteristic of numerous pre-Columbian Mesoamerican religions, and no more "tired" than the mummies and Egyptian embalming we saw on Amonkhet), but if they pushed the Sun Empire as averse to killing, they'll be straining the credulity of their readers. So I don't think the writers will play that way--this was just an (admittedly ham-fisted) attempt to drive home Huatli as a white hat.
But as far as I'm concerned, Huatli's most egregious offense thus far was her feel-good prattling to that little girl about the nature of poetry. Anyone who has studied poetry outside a high school writing workshop can tell you that's completely ridiculous.
I think that "sacrifice being a tired trope" thing was just an excuse. As for the whole nonlethal combat issue, I'd be wondering how the Sun Empire has been expanding across the continent without killing anyone. That just seems impossible to me, so I doubt what happened in Huatli's story is something they're always doing.
Regarding the poetry advice, I'd like to think she was just trying her best to make the girl feel better, but her advice could have been better. This is, of course, ignoring the actual quality of Huatli's own poetry, but the people in-story think it's hot stuff, so I guess that's largely irrelevant.
Human Sacrifice is "A tired old trope." and CRAPPY LOVECRAFT RIPOFFS ARE NOT?
To be fair, Emrakul's version of the Eldrazi in Eldritch Moon was (IMO) how the Eldrazi should have always been done (both in terms of flavour and gameplay), but yeah Lovecraft has been a tad overused.
At first, I was surprised at the number of female pirates on Ixalan. Sure, there were a few female pirates in real life, but on Ixalam they make up at least half of all pirates, which isn't realistic at all. It's even stranger when you realize they didn't give the vampires the same PC treatment: virtually all the conquistadors are male, just like they were in real life. What gives?
But then I realized why this all makes sense: the pirates are refugees. Unlike in real life, where pirates were just a minority of sailors, Ixalan's pirates consist of all the non-vampires (save a few humans that are still being forced to serve the Dusk Legion) from Torrezon. All of them. All races and both sexes.
That still doesn't explain why 80% of pirate captains are female. We all know that sexism was still running rampant in the time period Ixalan was based on, so even if a lot of women were pirates, they would still have difficulty getting positions of leadership. I could see Vraska taking over by the virtue of being a deadly and intimidating gorgon, but that doesn't excuse four out of five planebound captains/admirals being female. So that part is revisionist history and perhaps overly PC. But the presence of so many female pirates in general makes a lot of sense.
As for the block's villain(s), I agree that Vraska has gone full anti-hero, so Angrath and Kumena are far more likely to take on antagonistic roles, especially in the second set. However, the villain I have my eye on is Arguel and the bat god whose name I don't care to look up or try to spell (I suspect that the latter will end up possessing the former).
Still, I'm really hoping for a "every faction is terrible in its own way" type of story, much like Tarkir and Ravnica. In general faction sets tend to result in storylines that are less black-and-white, which is a win in my book (New Phyrexia is obviously the exception to this).
The whole "Sun Empire doesn't kill people" thing, however, makes me skeptical that this block will be as morally grey as Tarkir, which would be disappointing. We haven't had a good moral debate since SOI, and that's a shame. Bolas and Tezzeret could not possibly be justified in their actions, which in my opinion makes those storylines much less interesting and compelling than something morally grey like SOI or Tarkir.
Is it so hard to believe that Ixalan just isn't sexist? There's no reason that, just because when we had pirates we were sexist, means that it has to be the same on a fantasy world that has pirates.
If it was a completely fantastical world, then sure. Same goes for the more science fiction-based worlds, because it makes sense for them to be more progressive. But when a world borrows very heavily from elements of a time period in our past, it's natural to assume that everything not explicitly different is about the same as was on Earth during that time. In Ixalan's case, it's based on about the 1500s, so while things that are obviously departures from that are fine (dinosaurs, vampires, magic), we kind of expect other things to line up with the time period. Even if it was just Vraska (whose species should make it easy to assume leadership regardless of gender roles) and one other female planebound captain, it wouldn't seem that out of place, but virtually every pirate with a leadership role is female, which has no basis in the actual history that Ixalan is based on.
On a different world with pirates that's heavier on fantasy or sci-fi than Ixalan, I wouldn't have a problem, but on a world where the pirates are based on real-world pirates from the real-world age of exploration, it just feels a bit off. It's so much that the pirates aren't sexist enough, because they did remove some of the more negative real-world aspects from all factions (like human sacrifice), it's just that real-world legendary pirates were almost invariably male, so not having a single one with a card in Ixalan doesn't feel very true to the source material. I guess there will be Angrath in the next set, but that's still a 3:1 ratio in favor of women (if not 4:1 or 5:1 since if we get more pirate legends in Rivals they will most likely be Vance and/or Parrish), when it should be 50/50 at the best if they're trying to be even a little historically accurate.
I honestly can't stand this kind of commentary. It's this kind of discussion that keeps sexism alive and strong. Let me be clear, whether they are male or female HAS ZERO influence over this story. I mean that insofar as the story could be just as compelling with a 3:1 male ratio as it can be with a 3:1 female ratio. Perhaps Wizards will explain the lopsided genders. Perhaps they won't. But the fact is, if they choose not to, then it wouldn't pull away from the story at all. In fact, why are you even counting? Why does it matter at all? I'm far from a social justice warrior. I'm not arguing that everything should be equal or that it should be lopsided one way or another. What I am arguing is that it has no bearing on the effectiveness of this story so you have no reason to be out there looking for something to pick at. It's absolutely ludicrous that this discussion even exists.
And for the love of all that is good, can people PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, STOP thinking that this fantasy story needs to directly and accurately reflect our history?! It is inspired by tropes from our history. This is not a story about the pirates that roamed the sea of earth, it is not about the meso-American people, and it has NOTHING to do with the dinosaurs that roamed the earth up to 65 million years ago.
It is its OWN story in its OWN setting simply inspired by what we know as ALL STORIES SINCE THE DAWN OF TIME HAVE BEEN. Every story we tell is inspired by our experiences and learnings.
This is not the product for historically accurate ANYHING. Once you start realizing that, maybe, juuuusst maybe, you can enjoy the product and story for what it is and stop trying to find crap to be disappointed about.
lol "sexism" - Sultai's post isn't sexist at all. Women cannot be as physically strong as their male counterparts. Their upkeep, especially every month, even more so if pregnant, is hindering to being out on high seas like that. And a woman on a ship with deprived men is a recipe for disaster. Men don't get ahead because they're superior, it's just a logistics thing. Here I can see WOTC wants representation. My issue with equal representation is it makes women less special. Usually, when a woman is a leader (like Queen Miralda for example) in a man's world, I always think to myself damn, she made it to the top in a male-dominated world, and I'm compelled to know more. For me it actually detracts not to have more scarcity. In history the women who defied the odds and made it to the top are always the most interesting, such as Queen Elizabeth being a more powerful monarch than any Tutor men. Here, that appeal feels cheapened "eh, so it's a female ruler in a world where women in leader roles is ubiquitous - and lately, the status quo"
What's sexist to me is hemorrhaging out female characters to get even by the same means. Just to get numbers? Seems disingenuous to me. Look at the native PWs lately from the past several worlds. Not that I mind, but it's pretty transparent. Yet people still complain. Don't even get me started on how people on Blogatog want Maro to be aware of every gender term they identify with.
At least the sexism debate is better than the stupid race/history debate from a few pages ago that made me cringe. I can't believe some of the things people were saying. Quit buying into propaganda and being media sheep by taking everything at face value. I blame the mods for allowing the bait to stay fresh for so long and banning anyone who takes it.
On the bright side - I love Ixalan. It's finally what I've been asking for - a relatively peaceful exploration story that takes a survey of the natural world and its denizens and showcases them all on cards. Not apocalyptic wastelands and war scenes everywhere in a dismal trash heap of world. Cynthia Shepherd took the art in a very welcoming vibrant direction too. Plane is gorgeous and the story is refreshing and equally compelling.
I'd love to read the story when, back on Ravnica, Vraska and Liliana go all Brandy and Monica "The boy is mine" over Jace.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
I would say Kumena and Angrath are two characters who certainly come across as villainous.
Though Angrath, from what we've seen in the story so far, seems more pitiful than anything else. Dangerous, true, and likely a force to be reckoned with, but given his somewhat pathetic showing in the last fiction, I don't think they're setting him up to carry a major villain role, at least not by himself. Jace, Vraska, and Angrath all need to get off the plane, and I can see them all working together toward that end.
Kumena, on the other hand, does in fact seem sinister. The River Heralds as a faction don't seem at all evil, but Kumena appears to be enacting his own plans, contrary to the River Heralds' stated purpose.
On that note, if the Sun is what Bolas sent Vraska to Ixalan for, I bet it is/ can be used as a power source he needs for the Planar Bridge.
I would say that one does not simply copy a legendary artifact, but because the legend rule doesn't work that way anymore, they can have at it.
Mechanics don't always make for good flavor. Gameplay comes first.
Might be a bit complicated.
Copying artifacts is an old, once restricted type of magic that these newbies know not of.
But then I realized why this all makes sense: the pirates are refugees. Unlike in real life, where pirates were just a minority of sailors, Ixalan's pirates consist of all the non-vampires (save a few humans that are still being forced to serve the Dusk Legion) from Torrezon. All of them. All races and both sexes.
That still doesn't explain why 80% of pirate captains are female. We all know that sexism was still running rampant in the time period Ixalan was based on, so even if a lot of women were pirates, they would still have difficulty getting positions of leadership. I could see Vraska taking over by the virtue of being a deadly and intimidating gorgon, but that doesn't excuse four out of five planebound captains/admirals being female. So that part is revisionist history and perhaps overly PC. But the presence of so many female pirates in general makes a lot of sense.
As for the block's villain(s), I agree that Vraska has gone full anti-hero, so Angrath and Kumena are far more likely to take on antagonistic roles, especially in the second set. However, the villain I have my eye on is Arguel and the bat god whose name I don't care to look up or try to spell (I suspect that the latter will end up possessing the former).
Still, I'm really hoping for a "every faction is terrible in its own way" type of story, much like Tarkir and Ravnica. In general faction sets tend to result in storylines that are less black-and-white, which is a win in my book (New Phyrexia is obviously the exception to this).
The whole "Sun Empire doesn't kill people" thing, however, makes me skeptical that this block will be as morally grey as Tarkir, which would be disappointing. We haven't had a good moral debate since SOI, and that's a shame. Bolas and Tezzeret could not possibly be justified in their actions, which in my opinion makes those storylines much less interesting and compelling than something morally grey like SOI or Tarkir.
Is it so hard to believe that Ixalan just isn't sexist? There's no reason that, just because when we had pirates we were sexist, means that it has to be the same on a fantasy world that has pirates.
Torrezon isn't all, or likely even mostly, vampires though. While the cards depict almost entirely vampires, that's a mechanical concession. The vampires are only the nobility, clergy, and the conquistadors (which seems to be a position of some measure of power within the military, not just a reference to military personnel in general). The rank and file of the military, as well as presumably the entire underclass/peasant class are humans.
From the concept sheets show at PAX:
"Their expeditions of discovery are lead by vampire conquistadors and priests, with human soldiers filling the rank and file and additional humans serving support roles as sailors and menial laborers."
The pirates are the remnants of the other kingdoms on Torrezon that the Legion conquered, not all the non-slave humans. It'd just be hard to have a mechanical "Vampire Tribe" when half of the cards would be humans, so their presence within the Legion is largely ignored.
Agreed, both in that the Sun Empire/Huatli's nonviolence was cringy and forced, and that I'm hoping for a lot more grey area for all factions.
Where are you guys getting this "The Sun Empire is nonviolent" idea from? All the last fiction said was that Huatli and her warriors managed to triumph in their last battle without any lives lost on either side. Engagements like this have happened in real life.
Just because they won a bloodless victory doesn't mean they don't fight bloody battles as well. They're an expansionist empire, after all, who command dinosaurs with names like "Carnage Tyrant."
Agreed. All but the most bloodthirsty regimes generally recognize a bloodless victory as a noteworthy accomplishment by a warrior. "Not the most bloodthirsty" is a rather backhanded compliment. If anything, the second story set up Huatli as a hero, not the Sun Empire generally.
RWU
GUB
WBR
URG
BGW
Agreed. Anyone else feeling a little suspicious about our good 'ole friend, the Sun Emperor?
I mean, as much as Hautli annoyed me at times, I still can't help but think she's being used by this guy.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
She's definitely being used by him. He's using the Warrior-Poet title as an incentive for her to find Orazca, a title he was basically refusing to give her before (at least that's how I see it), which is a pretty sketchy move IMO. He may genuinely like her, but she's still a means to an end in this situation.
He did say that he thought it was a fools' errand for an entire nation to go searching for a legend, not one person. I'm in agreement that he's got plans. If he really is quite expansionist, we could be seeing a "Lord Konda" sort of set up where he wants to make the Sun Empire unquestioned with a lost city he thinks will be the ultimate WMD/First Elspeth Emblem
Nonviolent may not be the best word to describe it, cause martial combat is inherently violent, but when the story contains not one, but two instances where Huatli and Co deliberately avoid killing invaders it starts to feel forced and unnatural.
She and Intli had the element of surprise and a horde of dinosaurs at their disposal but instead just killing the pirates they burn their supplies and chase them off? Burning their supplies virtually guarantees that they'll HAVE to make a(nother) raid, likely against Sun Empire citizens, to resupply. By not simply crushing the pirates, they've now put their own citizens in danger.
That's simply not how you win a conflict, so it feels like WotC was trying too hard to say "These are the good guys!" and it feels contrived and artificial.
If it was a completely fantastical world, then sure. Same goes for the more science fiction-based worlds, because it makes sense for them to be more progressive. But when a world borrows very heavily from elements of a time period in our past, it's natural to assume that everything not explicitly different is about the same as was on Earth during that time. In Ixalan's case, it's based on about the 1500s, so while things that are obviously departures from that are fine (dinosaurs, vampires, magic), we kind of expect other things to line up with the time period. Even if it was just Vraska (whose species should make it easy to assume leadership regardless of gender roles) and one other female planebound captain, it wouldn't seem that out of place, but virtually every pirate with a leadership role is female, which has no basis in the actual history that Ixalan is based on.
On a different world with pirates that's heavier on fantasy or sci-fi than Ixalan, I wouldn't have a problem, but on a world where the pirates are based on real-world pirates from the real-world age of exploration, it just feels a bit off. It's so much that the pirates aren't sexist enough, because they did remove some of the more negative real-world aspects from all factions (like human sacrifice), it's just that real-world legendary pirates were almost invariably male, so not having a single one with a card in Ixalan doesn't feel very true to the source material. I guess there will be Angrath in the next set, but that's still a 3:1 ratio in favor of women (if not 4:1 or 5:1 since if we get more pirate legends in Rivals they will most likely be Vance and/or Parrish), when it should be 50/50 at the best if they're trying to be even a little historically accurate.
My thoughts exactly. If it was just the vampire thing, maybe I could believe that it was just a happy coincidence that no one died, but with the pirates they were clearly pulling their punches against their own best interests. Why would they burn the supplies of the pirates with said pirates nearby and then just leave? Either fight the pirates off for good, or don't provoke them in the first place. Otherwise, you're going to get ambushed by the pirates, which is exactly what happened with Angrath.
Not only are nonlethal tactics historically inaccurate for an Aztec-inspired faction and just plain stupid as a war strategy, but it also would be impossible to implement because they're fighting with dinosaurs on their side. Even if the people don't want to kill anyone, the dinosaurs will anyway. And, as you said, it feels like they're trying too hard to set up the good guys and bad guys, when it could (and should) be more complicated than that.
That being said, it's still early in the story. Hopefully at some point in the story we will see Huatli and/or the rest of the Sun Empire actually try to kill their enemies the way they logically should. The cards at least show dinosaurs killing pirates and especially vampires, and although that's not necessarily at the direction of the humans, it still gives me some amount of hope. Hopefully the utter absurdity of a dinosaur-riding Aztec warriors who refuse to kill anyone will prevent the writers from actually attempting it in anything more than this one story to not-so-subtly introduce Huatli as a protagonist.
If Creative does end up trying to sell the Sun Empire as a faction who avoids killing as a principle, even in the face of having their lands taken by murderous pirates and vampires, then the Sun Empire is too dumb to live and absolutely deserves to be overrun by conquistadors. It's unfortunate enough that they cut out all reference to human sacrifice (in the podcast they called it a "tired trope," but no, it was an essential characteristic of numerous pre-Columbian Mesoamerican religions, and no more "tired" than the mummies and Egyptian embalming we saw on Amonkhet), but if they pushed the Sun Empire as averse to killing, they'll be straining the credulity of their readers. So I don't think the writers will play that way--this was just an (admittedly ham-fisted) attempt to drive home Huatli as a white hat.
But as far as I'm concerned, Huatli's most egregious offense thus far was her feel-good prattling to that little girl about the nature of poetry. Anyone who has studied poetry outside a high school writing workshop can tell you that's completely ridiculous.
I think that "sacrifice being a tired trope" thing was just an excuse. As for the whole nonlethal combat issue, I'd be wondering how the Sun Empire has been expanding across the continent without killing anyone. That just seems impossible to me, so I doubt what happened in Huatli's story is something they're always doing.
Regarding the poetry advice, I'd like to think she was just trying her best to make the girl feel better, but her advice could have been better. This is, of course, ignoring the actual quality of Huatli's own poetry, but the people in-story think it's hot stuff, so I guess that's largely irrelevant.
Human Sacrifice is "A tired old trope." and CRAPPY LOVECRAFT RIPOFFS ARE NOT?
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
To be fair, Emrakul's version of the Eldrazi in Eldritch Moon was (IMO) how the Eldrazi should have always been done (both in terms of flavour and gameplay), but yeah Lovecraft has been a tad overused.
I honestly can't stand this kind of commentary. It's this kind of discussion that keeps sexism alive and strong. Let me be clear, whether they are male or female HAS ZERO influence over this story. I mean that insofar as the story could be just as compelling with a 3:1 male ratio as it can be with a 3:1 female ratio. Perhaps Wizards will explain the lopsided genders. Perhaps they won't. But the fact is, if they choose not to, then it wouldn't pull away from the story at all. In fact, why are you even counting? Why does it matter at all? I'm far from a social justice warrior. I'm not arguing that everything should be equal or that it should be lopsided one way or another. What I am arguing is that it has no bearing on the effectiveness of this story so you have no reason to be out there looking for something to pick at. It's absolutely ludicrous that this discussion even exists.
And for the love of all that is good, can people PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, STOP thinking that this fantasy story needs to directly and accurately reflect our history?! It is inspired by tropes from our history. This is not a story about the pirates that roamed the sea of earth, it is not about the meso-American people, and it has NOTHING to do with the dinosaurs that roamed the earth up to 65 million years ago.
It is its OWN story in its OWN setting simply inspired by what we know as ALL STORIES SINCE THE DAWN OF TIME HAVE BEEN. Every story we tell is inspired by our experiences and learnings.
This is not the product for historically accurate ANYHING. Once you start realizing that, maybe, juuuusst maybe, you can enjoy the product and story for what it is and stop trying to find crap to be disappointed about.
What's sexist to me is hemorrhaging out female characters to get even by the same means. Just to get numbers? Seems disingenuous to me. Look at the native PWs lately from the past several worlds. Not that I mind, but it's pretty transparent. Yet people still complain. Don't even get me started on how people on Blogatog want Maro to be aware of every gender term they identify with.
At least the sexism debate is better than the stupid race/history debate from a few pages ago that made me cringe. I can't believe some of the things people were saying. Quit buying into propaganda and being media sheep by taking everything at face value. I blame the mods for allowing the bait to stay fresh for so long and banning anyone who takes it.
On the bright side - I love Ixalan. It's finally what I've been asking for - a relatively peaceful exploration story that takes a survey of the natural world and its denizens and showcases them all on cards. Not apocalyptic wastelands and war scenes everywhere in a dismal trash heap of world. Cynthia Shepherd took the art in a very welcoming vibrant direction too. Plane is gorgeous and the story is refreshing and equally compelling.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-story/talented-captain-vraska-2017-09-20
Modern:R 8Whack R|W White Knights W