EDIT:
Also looks like Minotaurs are on Ixalan. And it looks like Jace teams up with the Merfolk.
It also looks like the Sun Empire and the merfolk are not on good terms at all. Seems to me as if every faction has a reason to fight each other.
Also Jace seems to have to wander around a lot. Poor guy, this happening to the least athletic of the gatewatch.
EDIT: The minotaurs (judging from the armor) seem to originate from the other continent and are part of the pirate faction.
EDIT:
Also looks like Minotaurs are on Ixalan. And it looks like Jace teams up with the Merfolk.
It also looks like the Sun Empire and the merfolk are not on good terms at all. Seems to me as if every faction has a reason to fight each other.
Also Jace seems to have to wander around a lot. Poor guy, this happening to the least athletic of the gatewatch.
EDIT: The minotaurs (judging from the armor) seem to originate from the other continent and are part of the pirate faction.
They said as much in the story podcast, they made a check list of all the faction fighting each other and made sure each of those conflicts was shown in the story.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I wonder if the Minotaur is the stranded pw Angrath. I say this only because we haven't seen/heard minotaurs mentioned anywhere else in the news about Ixalan. Additionally, we know Angrath is part of the pirate faction, that pw often appear as a "face" for booster packs, and that BR (the seemingly likely colors for Angrath) are the go-to minotaur colors.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Decks:
UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
I wonder if the Minotaur is the stranded pw Angrath. I say this only because we haven't seen/heard minotaurs mentioned anywhere else in the news about Ixalan. Additionally, we know Angrath is part of the pirate faction, that pw often appear as a "face" for booster packs, and that BR (the seemingly likely colors for Angrath) are the go-to minotaur colors.
That was my first thought too, he seems a bit out of place, but would perfectly fit b/r and being and angry pirate captain who wants to burn the world.
It would not be the first time that we got 4 walkers in a set, but he did not appear on the leaked sheet, does this rule him out?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
.
Thanks to DarkNightCavalier from Heroes of the Plane Studios for this sick Signature.
I do find it amusing, though, that WotC apparently consulted their Latin American office and not, say, their Spanish office. (At least, they didn't feel it necessary to point that out.)
I also noticed this lol. As a black and white player, and a gay guy who sees value in organized religion (despite my agnosticism) I'm a bit concerned that nobody bothered to ask the Catholic Church if they wanted to be mimicked that way haha.
Yeah thats what stuck out to me.
Like, we are concerned about representation guys so we dont want to portray the Aztecs/Mayans in a negative way.
Also the Spanish? Im thinking zealous Vampires.
I think it just highlights and ideological blind spot in the staff, they can get on board with not representing actual aspects of Mayan and Aztec culture because it would harmful but dont even recognize that they might be going overboard with the Spanish.
I do find it amusing, though, that WotC apparently consulted their Latin American office and not, say, their Spanish office. (At least, they didn't feel it necessary to point that out.)
I also noticed this lol. As a black and white player, and a gay guy who sees value in organized religion (despite my agnosticism) I'm a bit concerned that nobody bothered to ask the Catholic Church if they wanted to be mimicked that way haha.
Yeah thats what stuck out to me.
Like, we are concerned about representation guys so we dont want to portray the Aztecs/Mayans in a negative way.
Also the Spanish? Im thinking zealous Vampires.
I think it just highlights and ideological blind spot in the staff, they can get on board with not representing actual aspects of Mayan and Aztec culture because it would harmful but dont even recognize that they might be going overboard with the Spanish.
I was not too worried about the Catholic Church's response (and I say this as an orthodox Roman Catholic)... as was pointed out, Orzhov is far closer to a concern to us than the Legion of Dusk.
But Spain? Seriously, even granted that the conquistadors were nasty characters (or, at the very least, ruthless), how do the Spanish feel about being represented as Vampires?
This can be an issue with being inclusive... it can be as marginalizing as being exclusive...
Edit: Regarding Angrath as possible Minotaur PW, I would not be surprised if he were the other PW in Rivals of Ixalan opposite
Ajani
.
If that's so, and given that MaRo just dropped a big hint that Vraska would be one of the PWs in Rivals (which is surprising and be the very likely first time a PW deck PW did not also have a PW card in the set), Vraska couldn't be opposite either other character without sharing a color with them. I guess Nissa and NB did, but you would think that they would want to minimize that...
I do find it amusing, though, that WotC apparently consulted their Latin American office and not, say, their Spanish office. (At least, they didn't feel it necessary to point that out.)
I also noticed this lol. As a black and white player, and a gay guy who sees value in organized religion (despite my agnosticism) I'm a bit concerned that nobody bothered to ask the Catholic Church if they wanted to be mimicked that way haha.
Yeah thats what stuck out to me.
Like, we are concerned about representation guys so we dont want to portray the Aztecs/Mayans in a negative way.
Also the Spanish? Im thinking zealous Vampires.
I think it just highlights and ideological blind spot in the staff, they can get on board with not representing actual aspects of Mayan and Aztec culture because it would harmful but dont even recognize that they might be going overboard with the Spanish.
I was not too worried about the Catholic Church's response (and I say this as an orthodox Roman Catholic)... as was pointed out, Orzhov is far closer to a concern to us than the Legion of Dusk.
But Spain? Seriously, even granted that the conquistadors were nasty characters (or, at the very least, ruthless), how do the Spanish feel about being represented as Vampires?
This can be an issue with being inclusive... it can be as marginalizing as being exclusive...
From most Spanish American I've talked to (including some of my grandmothers side of the family that is partly Spanish) the feeling is similar to how most Germans feel about the Natzis. So I'd guess most Spanish-american player will feel how most Germans feel about Hydra or Storm Troppers.
Edit: Regarding Angrath as possible Minotaur PW, I would not be surprised if he were the other PW in Rivals of Ixalan opposite
Ajani
.
If that's so, and given that MaRo just dropped a big hint that Vraska would be one of the PWs in Rivals (which is surprising and be the very likely first time a PW deck PW did not also have a PW card in the set), Vraska couldn't be opposite either other character without sharing a color with them. I guess Nissa and NB did, but you would think that they would want to minimize that...
We saw this with Nissa last block bud you even mention her deck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
The spanish dont equivocate the conquistadors to Nazis.
-shrug- thats the feeling and thoughts from the Spanish-American, as I said including my own family members, I've talk to they see as bloody stain on their cultural history, similar to the Nazis, Americans to the Native Americans ect. I didn't seek to give a blanket statement. I have no knowledge how Euro. Spanish people feel.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
On the issue as pirates "not fitting" into the set, I must disagree: During the spanish colonies in Latin America (for example, in my country, Chile), the colonial ports were continuously under the threat of the attack of corsairs sponsored mainly by the british empire... aka pirates (as in Pirates of the Caribbean)... so it makes sense that the mesoamerican setting to have the declining native empire (maya), the rising empire (aztec), the zealous/religious invaders who drink blood (Spanish conquistadors) and the British and french Pirates... they may have not coexisted in the exact same period, but they make sense together if you taake into account the real world inspiration.
...Well pirates make sense in Ixalan when you take into account that there were British privateers and french corsairs attacking the Spanish colonies in America during the colony years, so their presence is not a mish mash, but takes into account the source material.
Also, some of the Legion of dusk art mimic the spanish baroque art, like Velasquez, or de la Ribera, which is a nice touch
(i had made a longer post with references but got flagged as spam lol)
Yes clearly people in Mexico and Spain look upon these men with shame and villiany.
Those in America? No? Thanks for the spam then. I'll say once again I've talked to Spanish-Americans. I have no clue how people in Mexico and Spain feel, merely how many of the Spanish-Americans I've talked with feel.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Hey guys. I'm latin and kinda spanish (spanish grandma s2), so... I don't really mind these comparisons (vampires as conquistadores). I mean... it happened hundreds of years ago, people move on. Off course that I can't speak for a entire culture, but I personally don't think it's all that bad.
And I am saying the people that live in those places dont seem to feel that way at all.
I dont think the people of Mexico would be building statues to the conquistadors if they thought of them as evil.
This seems like Americans being offended or sensitive for other places with out really bothering to investigate.
Some people asked what Spanish people might think. I merely added some anecdotal thoughts of people of Spanish decent/culture I talked too. Sorry you apparently got so offended.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Hey guys. I'm latin and kinda spanish (spanish grandma s2), so... I don't really mind these comparisons (vampires as conquistadores). I mean... it happened hundreds of years ago, people move on. Off course that I can't speak for a entire culture, but I personally don't think it's all that bad.
My point is that they excised the bloody parts of the Aztec and Mayan cultures, because they consulted Latin American experts because they didnt want to offend people.
And then green lit the vampire thing.
My point is there is a double standard.
And if the argument is well they were really evil. It doesnt hold up to reality.
Yeah, I can't really argue against that. But I'd rather wait for the magic stories before assuming that it's all black and white.
The Legion of Dusk is all black and white... *ducks*
From what I've seen so far, all the factions seem morally gray to me, although, so far at least, I get the impression that the River Heralds may have the lightest shade.
The other point is that the conquistadores, even when originally spanish, they ended aso being part of Latin american heritage... Im latin american and I lived in Spain for a while. Most Spanish peoplle don't even know much of how the Conquista was. So i think the right move was to base the adaptation from the input from latin america. (It´s like you were going to ask to the british about how would you portray the pilgrims that came to north america when adapting it. They descendants, by blood and cultural heritage, are not there anymore)
The other point is that the conquistadores, even when originally spanish, they ended aso being part of Latin american heritage... Im latin american and I lived in Spain for a while. Most Spanish peoplle don't even know much of how the Conquista was. So i think the right move was to base the adaptation from the input from latin america. (It´s like you were going to ask to the british about how would you portray the pilgrims that came to north america when adapting it. They descendants, by blood and cultural heritage, are not there anymore)
I'm not sure that's an entirely valid point. You're comparing settlers whose explicit intention was to leave the mother country with agents of the state, even if those agents' descendants are no longer affiliated with their nation of origin. A more valid comparison would be to ask the Brits how they feel about portrayals of British fighters in the French and Indian War (the American theater of the Seven Years' War), although I'm not aware of any particularly strong feelings on that front.
The other point is that the conquistadores, even when originally spanish, they ended aso being part of Latin american heritage... Im latin american and I lived in Spain for a while. Most Spanish peoplle don't even know much of how the Conquista was. So i think the right move was to base the adaptation from the input from latin america. (It´s like you were going to ask to the british about how would you portray the pilgrims that came to north america when adapting it. They descendants, by blood and cultural heritage, are not there anymore)
Its like if you stated you wanted to do a respectful representation of the war of independence, then portrayed the Americans in a idealized form and turned the British Soldiers into Vampires.
Nevermind that the relationship between Spain its colonies isnt a hostile one in general outside of some of the more Bolivarian influenced ones.
If it was why is Mexico building statues to conquistadors in 2010 and why is Columbia still named after Christopher Columbus.
Heck during the Spanish revolution Columbia was sympathetic to Franco not the Republicans.
Ixalan looks like it was inspired more by an American post-modernist perspective then on what the people in those countries think.
The other point is that the conquistadores, even when originally spanish, they ended aso being part of Latin american heritage... Im latin american and I lived in Spain for a while. Most Spanish peoplle don't even know much of how the Conquista was. So i think the right move was to base the adaptation from the input from latin america. (It´s like you were going to ask to the british about how would you portray the pilgrims that came to north america when adapting it. They descendants, by blood and cultural heritage, are not there anymore)
Its like if you stated you wanted to do a respectful representation of the war of independence, then portrayed the Americans in a idealized form and turned the British Soldiers into Vampires.
That would have been a far more sympathetic portrayal than seen in The Patriot.
Seriously though, both sides seem to be treated as morally grey here. The conquistadors are also MUCH less popular among the native population than among the Spanish descended population in Latin America. Saying that the mostly Spanish descended elites build statues to the people who conquered their country for them means that the conquered people like them is like saying white Americans building statues to Jackson or Indian Wars generals means that the conquered population likes them.
No, the conquistadors were not as bad as the Black Legend lies, but they weren't good either. They were, at best, and relic of a more barbaric period when sailing halfway around the world to murder people and take their land was a normal function of the state. The British were just as bad, as were the Dutch, as were my fellow Americans in the aforementioned Indian Wars. The Belgians were worse. They deserve an morally gray portrayal, and that's what they seem to be getting.
Yes, the legion are vampires, but they are vampires that restrain their bloodlust and who seem to actually have a legitimate reason to be attacking the natives here, unlike the real life European conquerors (or legitimate by modern standards, as lol conquest was a legit reason back then). You complain that Wizards left out human sacrifice from the natives, but they also leave out some of the really bad things the real life conquistadors did as well, like slavery, murdering their hosts, and pillaging. They softened both sides of the conflict, leaving us with morally grey religious fanatics bent on conquest that ride dinosaurs and stole the vampires sun, and morally grey religious fanatic vampires who are trying to take it back.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
And I am saying the people that live in those places dont seem to feel that way at all.
I dont think the people of Mexico would be building statues to the conquistadors if they thought of them as evil.
This seems like Americans being offended or sensitive for other places with out really bothering to investigate.
Mexican here, most people dont like those kind of statues. The first one is from the founders of a city and a lot of people where very abgry when they made it. The mayor of the city where I live tried to do the same and there was so much anger that the statue was cancelled. There is a group of statues where the guy is depicted, but the statues are supoused to represent the history of the city so they have to put it in.
In other words, we dont like them, but for better or for worse they are part of our history
can we please keep this topic out of our game. If you're in anyway offended by Ixalan, don't play it. 1 Charlottesville is more than enough, thank you.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
It also looks like the Sun Empire and the merfolk are not on good terms at all. Seems to me as if every faction has a reason to fight each other.
Also Jace seems to have to wander around a lot. Poor guy, this happening to the least athletic of the gatewatch.
EDIT: The minotaurs (judging from the armor) seem to originate from the other continent and are part of the pirate faction.
They said as much in the story podcast, they made a check list of all the faction fighting each other and made sure each of those conflicts was shown in the story.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
That was my first thought too, he seems a bit out of place, but would perfectly fit b/r and being and angry pirate captain who wants to burn the world.
It would not be the first time that we got 4 walkers in a set, but he did not appear on the leaked sheet, does this rule him out?
Thanks to DarkNightCavalier from Heroes of the Plane Studios for this sick Signature.
Yeah thats what stuck out to me.
Like, we are concerned about representation guys so we dont want to portray the Aztecs/Mayans in a negative way.
Also the Spanish? Im thinking zealous Vampires.
I think it just highlights and ideological blind spot in the staff, they can get on board with not representing actual aspects of Mayan and Aztec culture because it would harmful but dont even recognize that they might be going overboard with the Spanish.
I was not too worried about the Catholic Church's response (and I say this as an orthodox Roman Catholic)... as was pointed out, Orzhov is far closer to a concern to us than the Legion of Dusk.
But Spain? Seriously, even granted that the conquistadors were nasty characters (or, at the very least, ruthless), how do the Spanish feel about being represented as Vampires?
This can be an issue with being inclusive... it can be as marginalizing as being exclusive...
Edit: Regarding Angrath as possible Minotaur PW, I would not be surprised if he were the other PW in Rivals of Ixalan opposite
If that's so, and given that MaRo just dropped a big hint that Vraska would be one of the PWs in Rivals (which is surprising and be the very likely first time a PW deck PW did not also have a PW card in the set), Vraska couldn't be opposite either other character without sharing a color with them. I guess Nissa and NB did, but you would think that they would want to minimize that...
From most Spanish American I've talked to (including some of my grandmothers side of the family that is partly Spanish) the feeling is similar to how most Germans feel about the Natzis. So I'd guess most Spanish-american player will feel how most Germans feel about Hydra or Storm Troppers.
Edit: Regarding Angrath as possible Minotaur PW, I would not be surprised if he were the other PW in Rivals of Ixalan opposite
We saw this with Nissa last block bud you even mention her deck.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
-shrug- thats the feeling and thoughts from the Spanish-American, as I said including my own family members, I've talk to they see as bloody stain on their cultural history, similar to the Nazis, Americans to the Native Americans ect. I didn't seek to give a blanket statement. I have no knowledge how Euro. Spanish people feel.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I also like how some of the Legion of Dusk (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/ixalan/29241-deathless-ancient) arts reminds me of the Spanish art of the renaissance and Siglo de Oro (like Ell greco, Jose de ribera, Velasquez)
More references on pirates attacking spanish colonies:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buccaneer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-François_Roberval
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Drake
Also, some of the Legion of dusk art mimic the spanish baroque art, like Velasquez, or de la Ribera, which is a nice touch
(i had made a longer post with references but got flagged as spam lol)
Statue in Mexico that was recently built.
Statue of Cortez in his hometown.
Yes clearly people in Mexico and Spain look upon these men with shame and villiany.
Those in America? No? Thanks for the spam then. I'll say once again I've talked to Spanish-Americans. I have no clue how people in Mexico and Spain feel, merely how many of the Spanish-Americans I've talked with feel.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I dont think the people of Mexico would be building statues to the conquistadors if they thought of them as evil.
This seems like Americans being offended or sensitive for other places with out really bothering to investigate.
Some people asked what Spanish people might think. I merely added some anecdotal thoughts of people of Spanish decent/culture I talked too. Sorry you apparently got so offended.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
My point is that they excised the bloody parts of the Aztec and Mayan cultures, because they consulted Latin American experts because they didnt want to offend people.
And then green lit the vampire thing.
My point is there is a double standard.
And if the argument is well they were really evil. It doesnt hold up to reality.
The Legion of Dusk is all black and white... *ducks*
From what I've seen so far, all the factions seem morally gray to me, although, so far at least, I get the impression that the River Heralds may have the lightest shade.
RWU
GUB
WBR
URG
BGW
I'm not sure that's an entirely valid point. You're comparing settlers whose explicit intention was to leave the mother country with agents of the state, even if those agents' descendants are no longer affiliated with their nation of origin. A more valid comparison would be to ask the Brits how they feel about portrayals of British fighters in the French and Indian War (the American theater of the Seven Years' War), although I'm not aware of any particularly strong feelings on that front.
RWU
GUB
WBR
URG
BGW
Its like if you stated you wanted to do a respectful representation of the war of independence, then portrayed the Americans in a idealized form and turned the British Soldiers into Vampires.
Nevermind that the relationship between Spain its colonies isnt a hostile one in general outside of some of the more Bolivarian influenced ones.
If it was why is Mexico building statues to conquistadors in 2010 and why is Columbia still named after Christopher Columbus.
Heck during the Spanish revolution Columbia was sympathetic to Franco not the Republicans.
Ixalan looks like it was inspired more by an American post-modernist perspective then on what the people in those countries think.
That would have been a far more sympathetic portrayal than seen in The Patriot.
Seriously though, both sides seem to be treated as morally grey here. The conquistadors are also MUCH less popular among the native population than among the Spanish descended population in Latin America. Saying that the mostly Spanish descended elites build statues to the people who conquered their country for them means that the conquered people like them is like saying white Americans building statues to Jackson or Indian Wars generals means that the conquered population likes them.
No, the conquistadors were not as bad as the Black Legend lies, but they weren't good either. They were, at best, and relic of a more barbaric period when sailing halfway around the world to murder people and take their land was a normal function of the state. The British were just as bad, as were the Dutch, as were my fellow Americans in the aforementioned Indian Wars. The Belgians were worse. They deserve an morally gray portrayal, and that's what they seem to be getting.
Yes, the legion are vampires, but they are vampires that restrain their bloodlust and who seem to actually have a legitimate reason to be attacking the natives here, unlike the real life European conquerors (or legitimate by modern standards, as lol conquest was a legit reason back then). You complain that Wizards left out human sacrifice from the natives, but they also leave out some of the really bad things the real life conquistadors did as well, like slavery, murdering their hosts, and pillaging. They softened both sides of the conflict, leaving us with morally grey religious fanatics bent on conquest that ride dinosaurs and stole the vampires sun, and morally grey religious fanatic vampires who are trying to take it back.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Mexican here, most people dont like those kind of statues. The first one is from the founders of a city and a lot of people where very abgry when they made it. The mayor of the city where I live tried to do the same and there was so much anger that the statue was cancelled. There is a group of statues where the guy is depicted, but the statues are supoused to represent the history of the city so they have to put it in.
In other words, we dont like them, but for better or for worse they are part of our history