I actually think mashing up Mesoamerican influences and feathered dinosaurs is a pretty brilliant way to do an offbeat, unique fantasy setting. Going beyond the simplistic "the Jurassic/Cretaceous world was tropical, and so is Mesoamerica, so the background looks the same," Mesoamerican cultures have some aspects - a distinct love for feathers in their art, and Quetzalcoatl (a FEATHERED SERPENT) - that helps the concept feel organic, at least imho.
I actually think mashing up Mesoamerican influences and feathered dinosaurs is a pretty brilliant way to do an offbeat, unique fantasy setting. Going beyond the simplistic "the Jurassic/Cretaceous world was tropical, and so is Mesoamerica, so the background looks the same," Mesoamerican cultures have some aspects - a distinct love for feathers in their art, and Quetzalcoatl (a FEATHERED SERPENT) - that helps the concept feel organic, at least imho.
I agree. I feel like most of the feathered dinosaurs we've seen so far fit very well in this sort of setting, and the colors and patterns inherent to them really make them seem like a natural part of it.
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Meso American plus pirates and dinosaurs seems like throwing things at the wall, but they meshes well. Feathered Dino's line up with the Aztec Aesthetic as well. It's a unique place, which is better than a world of hats trope.
Vraska may or may not be trapped now, but she definitely wasn't when project lightning bug picked up her walking away. After that, we see her meet with the kraul dude to plot against Jarad. If that was a flashback, I'd have expected some mention of a Golgari civil war weighing on Jaces mind at some point, given hes the living guildpact and that sort of thing should be a top concern of his, but then again he sucks at his job.
Lastly, Ravnica had guns bases on magic. The first Ravnica block novel features a gun battle between the heroes and Savras forces, the heros on a living blimp and the Golgari elves riding insects. The guns were magical in nature, but operated like ray guns, the shot energy charges until they ran out, and could be used by non magic users. They were owned by an orzhov but produces by the Izzet as a product for sale. They were also used by Gruul raiders in Guildpact. I would expect these sort of weapons to show up in magic more so than firearms. The smartest people, the academics and hermetics, tend to be mages. And they study magic primarily, not natural science. When looking for an upgrade to bows and arrows, they'd look to harness magic rather than look for a chemical reaction. Why figure out what explodes then figure out how to use it when you can figure out how to enchant an artifact with an explosion spell, if you already know an explosion spell and enchanting?
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Onering: If the 'PWing Black Hole' theory is sound, then Project Lightning Bug might be something like an Internet ping. If the ping can't come back from Ixalan due to the influence of the Immortal Sun, it would result in the data Ral Zarek reported.
I will also point out that Allison in the Podcast explicitly mentioned both stories in the context of Ixalan. She 'promised that there was a good explanation' for Ral Zarek's report.
Now... since we know Bolas is at least backing Vraska, let's think of what he's assembling.
1) The Planar Bridge. (Tezzeret)
2) The Eternal Army. (Himself)
3) A Planar Navigation System (Ral Zarek)
4) A Planeswalking Jammer (Vraska)
... is he trying to isolate Planeswalking to just himself or those who work for him?
You can also make up the most 'bestest' backstory for ninjas in a norse block. Still doesn't mean they will not stand out like a sore thumb.
I don't think this is a fair comparison. If this is your complaint, it should be dinosaurs you have a problem with, not pirates. Based on the setting, they pirates are way more appropriate than the dinos.
My gripe isn't that pirates don't mesh with the setting. My gripe is that (in my opinion) dinosaurs and pirates don't mesh well together in this world.
As others have said, mesoamericans and feathered dinosaurs are actually a really cool combination.
Mesoamericans and pirates/conquistadors would also work well enough.
Heck, dinosaurs and pirates might work as some sort of king-kong-esque setting. (Though conquistadors wouldn't fit here well.)
But all these things together? To me it's just a big smudge of incoherence.
But I think the worst to me is something on a meta-level: Ixalan has massively reduced the chances of a future dinosaur setting or marine/pirate setting. Both of which I think would work well enough as full fledged settings on their own. :/
My gripe isn't that pirates don't mesh with the setting. My gripe is that (in my opinion) dinosaurs and pirates don't mesh well together in this world.
As others have said, mesoamericans and feathered dinosaurs are actually a really cool combination.
Mesoamericans and pirates/conquistadors would also work well enough.
Heck, dinosaurs and pirates might work as some sort of king-kong-esque setting. (Though conquistadors wouldn't fit here well.)
But all these things together? To me it's just a big smudge of incoherence.
I'd disagree somewhat. With the Vampires as Conquistadors and the Sun Empire and River Heralds as the Aztecs and the Mayans, the plane is rather clearly taking inspiration from the colonization of the Americas. The Black Legend has already been brought up in this thread as has its use by other cultures in their actions of against Spain. In England's case, they used the Black Legend to commit acts of piracy on and justify their wars against the Spanish. This appears to indicate that the pirate faction likely takes some inspiration from the examples of English funded pirates.
As Jay said, it's really the dinosaurs that stick out from all the other factions, but, as you pointed out, they really mesh well with the Aztec influence. In this case, I find myself fond of the overall design.
PS: I personally think a cyborg norse or cyborg ninja plane (though norse and ninja shouldn't touch) sounds pretty awesome.
I agree with Flisch that the setting comes off as too mish-mashy. It's all right with me, though, since I wasn't really so pumped about any one element that I'm disappointed about the lack of focus.
Are we coming at the vampires/Black Legend thing from the wrong angle? Am I the only one who thinks that the Dusk Legion is actually pretty sympathetic? They try to control their natural bloodlust, channel it into positive directions, and are hoping to find a way to spread the gift of immortality to everybody without the curse of vampirism. I mean, this isn't the Voldarens or the Sengir; these guys are pretty okay by vampire standards.
I agree that, at least as they are presented thus far, the legion of dusk seems far and away like the most benevolent vampire faction we've seen in mtg to date. I would argue even more so than the Kalastria. Granted we only have an overview of them so far but compare them to all previous representations of vampires in mtg (and for that matter most representations of conquistadors in fiction) and these guys are presented as pretty benign. They just seem to have a very "if you're not with us, you're lost" kind of deal going on which is honestly more a general religious zealotry thing than a conquistador thing.
Edit: While I really like Ixalan so far, I definitely share Flish's concerns that it could decrease the chance of individual dinosaur and ocean planes. I've wanted Muraganda forever and a fully marine plane for even longer. Given WOTC's trend of basing planes off real world cultures I've come to think that if we get an ocean plane it will probably be based off Polynesian mythology rather than an "underwater world" trope. Being from Hawaii I'd be stoked for that too but it's not exactly what I had in mind and I get where Flish is coming from.
Onering: If the 'PWing Black Hole' theory is sound, then Project Lightning Bug might be something like an Internet ping. If the ping can't come back from Ixalan due to the influence of the Immortal Sun, it would result in the data Ral Zarek reported.
I will also point out that Allison in the Podcast explicitly mentioned both stories in the context of Ixalan. She 'promised that there was a good explanation' for Ral Zarek's report.
Now... since we know Bolas is at least backing Vraska, let's think of what he's assembling.
1) The Planar Bridge. (Tezzeret)
2) The Eternal Army. (Himself)
3) A Planar Navigation System (Ral Zarek)
4) A Planeswalking Jammer (Vraska)
... is he trying to isolate Planeswalking to just himself or those who work for him?
She mentioned the Kraul story? I didn't listen to the podcast (I don't like podcasts unless they are done by people who actually have some radio training. It's silly that they don't just write articles anymore. I'd rather read and parse the words of someone who is a trained writer, not listen to them do radio when they aren't trained on it, and podcasts are just radio for the digital age. It's a misuse of talent). Did she mention when it happens in the timeline? Because if it happens after lightning bug, then either Ixilan isn't a black hole, Vraska already has a way to escape it and has done so before, or she didn't go there, the last of which seems to be invalid due to Luhrs comments. If the Kraul story is set prior to the Lightning Bug one, then either the Kraul/Ancient Undead/Vraska coup already failed (or succeeded), and the aftermath has been settled enough that it is no longer a top concern for Jace, or Jace has simply been ignoring a guild tearing itself apart while it's orchestrated by his nemesis (sucks at his job, and yea I count not mentioning it to the Gatewatch or considering it in one of his many pov stories, it's damn important and we should have heard about it from him because it should have been on the forefront of his mind, even in the sense of "Ok, now that Emrakul is sealed I need to deal with this Golgari problem before we get into any more shenanigans, so no new jobs for awhile guys"), or, possibly, that the Kraul/Ancient Undead alliance has not made any significant moves since the story, which I find HIGHLY unlikely as they wanted to kill Jarad during the meeting and were ready to march on Svogthos.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
But I think the worst to me is something on a meta-level: Ixalan has massively reduced the chances of a future dinosaur setting or marine/pirate setting. Both of which I think would work well enough as full fledged settings on their own. :/
Nah, I don't think so. Think about it, the Dinosaurs share space with Naya, the 'Kaiju' faction, but they're still being made here. I'm not sure either would work well to support an entire block (maybe a stand-alone set, under the new structure). People keep bringing up Muraganda, but the issue there is the 'no abilties' set, and the lack of advanced enough humanoids to keep the audience drawn in. Anyway, thanks for explaining!
I know she mentioned it at least when they were discussing Vraska's backstory. I will check the transcript.
Edit: By the transcript: "Yes! So back on Ravnica, Ral Zarek developed a neat device to track Planeswalkers entering and leaving the plane. He recorded the assassin Vraska leaving Ravnica, but was unable to tell where she ended up, and I swear there’s a good reason for that.
The other clue came from Vraska’s dear bug friend, Mazirek. He’s Kraul and leader of a very marginalized group among the Golgari. Vraska cares about people like her, disenfranchised and downtrodden, and she and Mazirek became close friends. She didn’t tell him her plans, but he knows that she’s gone and has big plans for whenever she returns."
My guess is that the Mazirek story occurred before the Lightning Bug story chronologically in-story, and likely right before. I will have to read that story and figure it out, likely...
Imho Mazirek releases Umrilek "now" (roughly concurrently with Amonkhet story) and all Vraska parts were flashbacks (a year, two, three?). How long it takes to teach someone the "political" finesse...
You can also make up the most 'bestest' backstory for ninjas in a norse block. Still doesn't mean they will not stand out like a sore thumb.
I don't think this is a fair comparison. If this is your complaint, it should be dinosaurs you have a problem with, not pirates. Based on the setting, they pirates are way more appropriate than the dinos.
My gripe isn't that pirates don't mesh with the setting. My gripe is that (in my opinion) dinosaurs and pirates don't mesh well together in this world.
As others have said, mesoamericans and feathered dinosaurs are actually a really cool combination.
Mesoamericans and pirates/conquistadors would also work well enough.
Heck, dinosaurs and pirates might work as some sort of king-kong-esque setting. (Though conquistadors wouldn't fit here well.)
But all these things together? To me it's just a big smudge of incoherence.
But I think the worst to me is something on a meta-level: Ixalan has massively reduced the chances of a future dinosaur setting or marine/pirate setting. Both of which I think would work well enough as full fledged settings on their own. :/
I don't think it reduces the chances of seeing dinosaurs again at all. As long as they fit flavorfully with world we are on, its fine. Also, I doubt they would be able to make an entire world based on dinosaurs. They could be an aspect of the plane, like they are on Ixalan, but since they are just another type of creature, it would be hard to make any sort of good story conflict. It would be like Battle for Zendikar again; characters fighting a mindless force of nature, which doesn't really equate to an interesting villian. That was partly why BFZ kind of sucked. Thus in Ixalan, they have multiple faction fighting each other with the backdrop of a dino world.
I agree with Flisch that the setting comes off as too mish-mashy. It's all right with me, though, since I wasn't really so pumped about any one element that I'm disappointed about the lack of focus.
Are we coming at the vampires/Black Legend thing from the wrong angle? Am I the only one who thinks that the Dusk Legion is actually pretty sympathetic? They try to control their natural bloodlust, channel it into positive directions, and are hoping to find a way to spread the gift of immortality to everybody without the curse of vampirism. I mean, this isn't the Voldarens or the Sengir; these guys are pretty okay by vampire standards.
Or people are jumping through hoops trying to defend Wizards, besides costing white mana these vampires dont seem all that different from any other vampires, and Mark Rosewater was pretty clear it was meant to be a negative thing see his tumblr.
Also the world really isnt a mish mash.
Aztecs with Dinosaurs is a trope, see Lizardmen in Warhammer, the trolls in world of warcraft, and Im pretty sure its a riff of the Lost World Novel.
I dont get how people dont see how Pirates fit, Pirates aka Pirates of the Caribbean?
No, you missed my point in that the natives don't have to be depicted like that since they don't have to be inspired by the Aztecs. And while it isn't very subtle, I definitely don't mind the "Vampires as conquistadors" angle.
Actually the Mayans practiced ritual sacrifice in much the same manner as the Aztecs:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/6853177/#.Wad7QtFGmM8
For decades, many researchers believed Spanish accounts from the 16th and 17th centuries were biased to denigrate Indian cultures. Others argued that sacrifices were largely confined to captured warriors, while still others conceded the Aztecs were bloody, but believed the Maya were less so.
“We now have the physical evidence to corroborate the written and pictorial record,” said archaeologist Leonardo Lopez Lujan. He said, “some ‘pro-Indian’ currents had always denied this had happened. They said the texts must be lying.”
The Spaniards probably did exaggerate the sheer numbers of victims to justify a supposedly righteous war against idolatry, said David Carrasco, a Harvard Divinity School expert on Meso-American religion.
But there is no longer as much doubt about the nature of the killings. Indian pictorial texts known as “codices,” as well as Spanish accounts from the time, quote Indians as describing multiple forms of human sacrifice.
Interesting, but still doesn't mean that Ixalans natives have to be depicted exactly like cultures which practice human sacrifice. First off there are still other mesoamerican cultures (quite a few in fact) and second not every aspect of them has to be used exactly. No one in their right mind would say that conquistadors were actually vampires or that the mesoamerican cultures had access to dinosaurs. Yet on Ixalan they are and they do. And who knows, maybe in this world they do sacrifice their prisoners of war... just to sate their dinosaurs for example (there is no direct indication yet that this is true, but certain cards seem to point in this direction in my opinion). Their empire certainly seems to have driven off the native merfolk to a degree and the vampires seem to have a reason for going to Ixalan aside from invading. Nothing is really cut-and-dry here and I think you are reading a bit too much negativity in this.
Did you listen to the podcast?
1. The Sun Empire is based off of the Aztec Empire with a touch of Incans, the Merfolk are based off of the Mayans.
2. The women specifically talks about wanting to be respectful and says its not about sacrifices, I guess her Latin American experts told her those weren't real?
3. Mark Rosewater on his tumblr was asked if they were worried about portraying Conquistadors into positive a light, and he said that they made them into "blood sucking vampires"
4. The women talks about the back the backstory of the Vampires, there is an iron fisted king and church that rule the Vampires and they took over a continent wiping everyone else out and the pirates are the survivors, it reads like the Black Legend but with a fantasy twist.
They are deliberately portraying the natives in positive light and either through ignorance or by choice white washing the Aztecs and Mayans. And they portraying the Spanish in negative light based on stereotypes from the real world.
No, I didn't. But I still have some counters to your argument:
1. Ok, interesting. The question is: Does a fictional culture have to contain every single aspect of their real counterpart? I would say no. They are inspired by them, but just like not everything about greek and egyptian culture (including some less than great characteristics) made it into Theros and Amonkhet, the "human sacrifices" aspect didn't make it into Ixalan. The Sun Empire is also not shown to be in the right here, having removed the merfolk from much of their territory and expanding at the cost of others. And who knows what negative aspects the merfolk have (although I'm all for a sympathetic simic faction for once).
2. See 1. There are people who wouldn't like the sacrifice aspect to be made explicit. Doesn't mean that the faction is now "all good" or even decent. As I said before, they don't seem to have anything against their dinosaurs mauling the vampires, merfolk and pirates, as seen on the cards.
3. He answered a question on whether they would whitewash the conquistadors. So apparently there are people who don't really wish that to happen either.
4. Ok, here is the thing about the Black Legend: It sadly makes it a bit hard to objectively judge how much was propaganda and how much was reality. From wikipedia: "In recent years a group of historians including Alfredo Alvar and Lourdes Mateo Bretos have argued that the Black Legend does not currently exist, the Black Legend instead being merely the Spanish perception of how the world views Spain's legacy." They are not the only historians who do so.
Also: "In Charles Gibson's 1964 monograph The Aztecs under Spanish Rule, the first comprehensive study of the documentary sources of relations between Indians and Spaniards in New Spain (colonial Mexico), he concludes that the Black Legend builds upon the record of deliberate sadism. It flourishes in an atmosphere of indignation which removes the issue from the category of objective understanding. It is insufficient in its understanding of institutions of colonial history."
So the Black Legends influence on the historical record is also not cut-and-dry (which is often the case with history). It also states that Franco tried to use the Black Legend to whitewash spanish history. Being objective in such circumstances is a bit difficult.
No. As I said, the factions aren't black and white. The vampires are not on Ixalan to conquer, but to find the immortal sun. The Sun Empire is still aggressively expanding on the continent. Trying to read real world meaning into this is a bit too much in my opinion. Or should I be angry that ancient egyptian culture is portrayed as gullible in Amonkhet for believing in a false god? Or angry that the Theros gods are huge jerks? As long as the conflict isn't totally black and white, you should give Wizards a bit leeway in my opinion.
The Greek gods were seen as fickle.
And people might dispute how big of an exaggeration the Black legend is, but it is a thing. I think the truth is in the middle, the conquistadors werent Vampires or Saints.
And honestly if I sailed half way across the world and found a place where people were sacrificing people to appease their gods and stopping the world from ending, "understanding" would be the last thing on my mind.
From a gameplay perspective, having a tribe show up in a tribal block increases the chance that you will see that tribe in a future block. About the only real counterexample would be Kithkin, and I highly doubt that Dinosaurs will have the same issue. Also, when you consider that one or two random dinosaurs is not likely to 'cut it' in a set...
As for the Vampires, I love them. Most certainly my favorite faction. Merfolk likely being my least favorite.
Vraska may or may not be trapped now, but she definitely wasn't when project lightning bug picked up her walking away. After that, we see her meet with the kraul dude to plot against Jarad. If that was a flashback, I'd have expected some mention of a Golgari civil war weighing on Jaces mind at some point, given hes the living guildpact and that sort of thing should be a top concern of his, but then again he sucks at his job.
The timeline doesn't really take that much stretching to make work: the last conversation between Vraska and Mazirek (which was a flashback, though it's not clear how long before the rest of the story it takes place) in "The Pride of the Kraul" happens before "In This Very Arena," which is when Ral informs Jace of Vraska's anomalous planeswalk, while the rest of "The Pride of the Kraul" happens after either "In This Very Arena" or "In the Dead of Night," depending on whether Jace returned to Ravnica between the Kaladesh story and the Aether Revolt story (the story hints subtly toward no, by my reading, but it's not wholly clear).
Even assuming Mazirek put his plan into action immediately after that conversation with Vraska, and then the Kraul and the Erstwhile made themselves known (to an extent that even those beyond the Undercity became aware of them) immediately after the Mausoleum was opened, there's still a minimum of nine days between the flashback and the end of the story: it's a three-day journey from Golgari HQ to the Mausoleum, and that distance is (implicitly) crossed three times in the story - Mazirek journeying to the Mausoleum for the first time after leaving Vraska's home, the letter being delivered from Mazirek to Jarad, and Sobeslav traveling to the Mausoleum. And it would have to be crossed once more by the Kraul and the Erstwhile before they became a threat to the Golgari worth informing the Guildpact about.
If Jace never returns to Ravnica after first traveling to Kaladesh (which was right after he was informed about Vraska planeswalking to what we now know was Ixalan), that just means that "In This Very Arena" would have to fall somewhere within that minimum twelve-day stretch, which doesn't seem like the most unreasonable coincidence to me. (Especially since, realistically, Mazirek probably took time to study what he had been shown and to prepare the ritual before he sent the letter to Jarad, and to study and prepare his new army afterward.) If he did return at some point before "In the Dead of Night," that would be a much tougher fit, as over 50 days pass between the two stories, based on the figure given for Yahenni's lifespan in "Born of Aether" (which takes place at most a day or two before "In This Very Arena"), in which they are said to have 54 days left to live.
(Also, though it's not technically relevant to the above timeline, it's been about another 24 days in-story since "In the Dead of Night," so Vraska will have been on Ixalan for quite a while - about two and a half months - by the time Jace arrives there.)
Are we coming at the vampires/Black Legend thing from the wrong angle? Am I the only one who thinks that the Dusk Legion is actually pretty sympathetic? They try to control their natural bloodlust, channel it into positive directions, and are hoping to find a way to spread the gift of immortality to everybody without the curse of vampirism. I mean, this isn't the Voldarens or the Sengir; these guys are pretty okay by vampire standards.
Or people are jumping through hoops trying to defend Wizards, besides costing white mana these vampires dont seem all that different from any other vampires, and Mark Rosewater was pretty clear it was meant to be a negative thing see his tumblr.
Except that what Trinite said is pretty much everything we've been told about them. They only drink the blood of the guilty (though we've yet to learn precisely what causes one to be considered guilty) and want to use the Immortal Sun to spread their immortality without the need to consume blood. Of course, they did conquer the pirate's homeland and make refugees of them so they aren't 100% noble.
Again, I think that MaRo was more reacting to the idea that they were 'meant to be seen' in a positive light. 'They're bloodsucking vampires!' should equal not positive. It does not necessarily mean highly negative, though. The cards we've seen make them seem no worse than, say, Sorin. I could probably get behind 'most positive depiction of Vampires yet in Magic'. That doesn't mean that they are good or nice.
Allison does make clear in the podcast that this is NOT an apocalyptic 'us vs. them' story. It's a race. So the vampires can't be too bad.
I do find it amusing, though, that WotC apparently consulted their Latin American office and not, say, their Spanish office. (At least, they didn't feel it necessary to point that out.)
I do find it amusing, though, that WotC apparently consulted their Latin American office and not, say, their Spanish office. (At least, they didn't feel it necessary to point that out.)
I also noticed this lol. As a black and white player, and a gay guy who sees value in organized religion (despite my agnosticism) I'm a bit concerned that nobody bothered to ask the Catholic Church if they wanted to be mimicked that way haha.
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Wizards. listen. The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
I do find it amusing, though, that WotC apparently consulted their Latin American office and not, say, their Spanish office. (At least, they didn't feel it necessary to point that out.)
I also noticed this lol. As a black and white player, and a gay guy who sees value in organized religion (despite my agnosticism) I'm a bit concerned that nobody bothered to ask the Catholic Church if they wanted to be mimicked that way haha.
The Orzhov were more a mix of the Borgia era Church, Scientology, and Orthodox influences than a purely Catholic parody.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
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I agree. I feel like most of the feathered dinosaurs we've seen so far fit very well in this sort of setting, and the colors and patterns inherent to them really make them seem like a natural part of it.
Vraska may or may not be trapped now, but she definitely wasn't when project lightning bug picked up her walking away. After that, we see her meet with the kraul dude to plot against Jarad. If that was a flashback, I'd have expected some mention of a Golgari civil war weighing on Jaces mind at some point, given hes the living guildpact and that sort of thing should be a top concern of his, but then again he sucks at his job.
Lastly, Ravnica had guns bases on magic. The first Ravnica block novel features a gun battle between the heroes and Savras forces, the heros on a living blimp and the Golgari elves riding insects. The guns were magical in nature, but operated like ray guns, the shot energy charges until they ran out, and could be used by non magic users. They were owned by an orzhov but produces by the Izzet as a product for sale. They were also used by Gruul raiders in Guildpact. I would expect these sort of weapons to show up in magic more so than firearms. The smartest people, the academics and hermetics, tend to be mages. And they study magic primarily, not natural science. When looking for an upgrade to bows and arrows, they'd look to harness magic rather than look for a chemical reaction. Why figure out what explodes then figure out how to use it when you can figure out how to enchant an artifact with an explosion spell, if you already know an explosion spell and enchanting?
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I will also point out that Allison in the Podcast explicitly mentioned both stories in the context of Ixalan. She 'promised that there was a good explanation' for Ral Zarek's report.
Now... since we know Bolas is at least backing Vraska, let's think of what he's assembling.
1) The Planar Bridge. (Tezzeret)
2) The Eternal Army. (Himself)
3) A Planar Navigation System (Ral Zarek)
4) A Planeswalking Jammer (Vraska)
... is he trying to isolate Planeswalking to just himself or those who work for him?
My gripe isn't that pirates don't mesh with the setting. My gripe is that (in my opinion) dinosaurs and pirates don't mesh well together in this world.
As others have said, mesoamericans and feathered dinosaurs are actually a really cool combination.
Mesoamericans and pirates/conquistadors would also work well enough.
Heck, dinosaurs and pirates might work as some sort of king-kong-esque setting. (Though conquistadors wouldn't fit here well.)
But all these things together? To me it's just a big smudge of incoherence.
But I think the worst to me is something on a meta-level: Ixalan has massively reduced the chances of a future dinosaur setting or marine/pirate setting. Both of which I think would work well enough as full fledged settings on their own. :/
I'd disagree somewhat. With the Vampires as Conquistadors and the Sun Empire and River Heralds as the Aztecs and the Mayans, the plane is rather clearly taking inspiration from the colonization of the Americas. The Black Legend has already been brought up in this thread as has its use by other cultures in their actions of against Spain. In England's case, they used the Black Legend to commit acts of piracy on and justify their wars against the Spanish. This appears to indicate that the pirate faction likely takes some inspiration from the examples of English funded pirates.
As Jay said, it's really the dinosaurs that stick out from all the other factions, but, as you pointed out, they really mesh well with the Aztec influence. In this case, I find myself fond of the overall design.
PS: I personally think a cyborg norse or cyborg ninja plane (though norse and ninja shouldn't touch) sounds pretty awesome.
Are we coming at the vampires/Black Legend thing from the wrong angle? Am I the only one who thinks that the Dusk Legion is actually pretty sympathetic? They try to control their natural bloodlust, channel it into positive directions, and are hoping to find a way to spread the gift of immortality to everybody without the curse of vampirism. I mean, this isn't the Voldarens or the Sengir; these guys are pretty okay by vampire standards.
Edit: While I really like Ixalan so far, I definitely share Flish's concerns that it could decrease the chance of individual dinosaur and ocean planes. I've wanted Muraganda forever and a fully marine plane for even longer. Given WOTC's trend of basing planes off real world cultures I've come to think that if we get an ocean plane it will probably be based off Polynesian mythology rather than an "underwater world" trope. Being from Hawaii I'd be stoked for that too but it's not exactly what I had in mind and I get where Flish is coming from.
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
She mentioned the Kraul story? I didn't listen to the podcast (I don't like podcasts unless they are done by people who actually have some radio training. It's silly that they don't just write articles anymore. I'd rather read and parse the words of someone who is a trained writer, not listen to them do radio when they aren't trained on it, and podcasts are just radio for the digital age. It's a misuse of talent). Did she mention when it happens in the timeline? Because if it happens after lightning bug, then either Ixilan isn't a black hole, Vraska already has a way to escape it and has done so before, or she didn't go there, the last of which seems to be invalid due to Luhrs comments. If the Kraul story is set prior to the Lightning Bug one, then either the Kraul/Ancient Undead/Vraska coup already failed (or succeeded), and the aftermath has been settled enough that it is no longer a top concern for Jace, or Jace has simply been ignoring a guild tearing itself apart while it's orchestrated by his nemesis (sucks at his job, and yea I count not mentioning it to the Gatewatch or considering it in one of his many pov stories, it's damn important and we should have heard about it from him because it should have been on the forefront of his mind, even in the sense of "Ok, now that Emrakul is sealed I need to deal with this Golgari problem before we get into any more shenanigans, so no new jobs for awhile guys"), or, possibly, that the Kraul/Ancient Undead alliance has not made any significant moves since the story, which I find HIGHLY unlikely as they wanted to kill Jarad during the meeting and were ready to march on Svogthos.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Nah, I don't think so. Think about it, the Dinosaurs share space with Naya, the 'Kaiju' faction, but they're still being made here. I'm not sure either would work well to support an entire block (maybe a stand-alone set, under the new structure). People keep bringing up Muraganda, but the issue there is the 'no abilties' set, and the lack of advanced enough humanoids to keep the audience drawn in. Anyway, thanks for explaining!
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[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Edit: By the transcript: "Yes! So back on Ravnica, Ral Zarek developed a neat device to track Planeswalkers entering and leaving the plane. He recorded the assassin Vraska leaving Ravnica, but was unable to tell where she ended up, and I swear there’s a good reason for that.
The other clue came from Vraska’s dear bug friend, Mazirek. He’s Kraul and leader of a very marginalized group among the Golgari. Vraska cares about people like her, disenfranchised and downtrodden, and she and Mazirek became close friends. She didn’t tell him her plans, but he knows that she’s gone and has big plans for whenever she returns."
My guess is that the Mazirek story occurred before the Lightning Bug story chronologically in-story, and likely right before. I will have to read that story and figure it out, likely...
I don't think it reduces the chances of seeing dinosaurs again at all. As long as they fit flavorfully with world we are on, its fine. Also, I doubt they would be able to make an entire world based on dinosaurs. They could be an aspect of the plane, like they are on Ixalan, but since they are just another type of creature, it would be hard to make any sort of good story conflict. It would be like Battle for Zendikar again; characters fighting a mindless force of nature, which doesn't really equate to an interesting villian. That was partly why BFZ kind of sucked. Thus in Ixalan, they have multiple faction fighting each other with the backdrop of a dino world.
Or people are jumping through hoops trying to defend Wizards, besides costing white mana these vampires dont seem all that different from any other vampires, and Mark Rosewater was pretty clear it was meant to be a negative thing see his tumblr.
Also the world really isnt a mish mash.
Aztecs with Dinosaurs is a trope, see Lizardmen in Warhammer, the trolls in world of warcraft, and Im pretty sure its a riff of the Lost World Novel.
I dont get how people dont see how Pirates fit, Pirates aka Pirates of the Caribbean?
The Greek gods were seen as fickle.
And people might dispute how big of an exaggeration the Black legend is, but it is a thing. I think the truth is in the middle, the conquistadors werent Vampires or Saints.
And honestly if I sailed half way across the world and found a place where people were sacrificing people to appease their gods and stopping the world from ending, "understanding" would be the last thing on my mind.
As for the Vampires, I love them. Most certainly my favorite faction. Merfolk likely being my least favorite.
Even assuming Mazirek put his plan into action immediately after that conversation with Vraska, and then the Kraul and the Erstwhile made themselves known (to an extent that even those beyond the Undercity became aware of them) immediately after the Mausoleum was opened, there's still a minimum of nine days between the flashback and the end of the story: it's a three-day journey from Golgari HQ to the Mausoleum, and that distance is (implicitly) crossed three times in the story - Mazirek journeying to the Mausoleum for the first time after leaving Vraska's home, the letter being delivered from Mazirek to Jarad, and Sobeslav traveling to the Mausoleum. And it would have to be crossed once more by the Kraul and the Erstwhile before they became a threat to the Golgari worth informing the Guildpact about.
If Jace never returns to Ravnica after first traveling to Kaladesh (which was right after he was informed about Vraska planeswalking to what we now know was Ixalan), that just means that "In This Very Arena" would have to fall somewhere within that minimum twelve-day stretch, which doesn't seem like the most unreasonable coincidence to me. (Especially since, realistically, Mazirek probably took time to study what he had been shown and to prepare the ritual before he sent the letter to Jarad, and to study and prepare his new army afterward.) If he did return at some point before "In the Dead of Night," that would be a much tougher fit, as over 50 days pass between the two stories, based on the figure given for Yahenni's lifespan in "Born of Aether" (which takes place at most a day or two before "In This Very Arena"), in which they are said to have 54 days left to live.
(Also, though it's not technically relevant to the above timeline, it's been about another 24 days in-story since "In the Dead of Night," so Vraska will have been on Ixalan for quite a while - about two and a half months - by the time Jace arrives there.)
Except that what Trinite said is pretty much everything we've been told about them. They only drink the blood of the guilty (though we've yet to learn precisely what causes one to be considered guilty) and want to use the Immortal Sun to spread their immortality without the need to consume blood. Of course, they did conquer the pirate's homeland and make refugees of them so they aren't 100% noble.
And apparently their foreign enemies.
But hey maybe I am wrong and there will be cards/stories that portray them in a positive light.
But I remain highly skeptical due to the actual commentary of the lead designer of the set.
Allison does make clear in the podcast that this is NOT an apocalyptic 'us vs. them' story. It's a race. So the vampires can't be too bad.
I do find it amusing, though, that WotC apparently consulted their Latin American office and not, say, their Spanish office. (At least, they didn't feel it necessary to point that out.)
I also noticed this lol. As a black and white player, and a gay guy who sees value in organized religion (despite my agnosticism) I'm a bit concerned that nobody bothered to ask the Catholic Church if they wanted to be mimicked that way haha.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
The Orzhov were more a mix of the Borgia era Church, Scientology, and Orthodox influences than a purely Catholic parody.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/card-preview/ixalan-promos-planeswalker-decks-packaging-and-fnm-tokens-2017-09-01
EDIT:
Also looks like Minotaurs are on Ixalan. And it looks like Jace teams up with the Merfolk.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"