Looking at the big wallpaper of Admiral Beckett Brass....is the Admiral female?? The art looks more like a really badass pirate granny than anything else. And the chest region has certain curvature, to say the least.
Looking at the big wallpaper of Admiral Beckett Brass....is the Admiral female?? The art looks more like a really badass pirate granny than anything else. And the chest region has certain curvature, to say the least.
The artist used his mum as a model. I thought that was pretty cool.
[link]
Have not caught that. Cool
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100% Vorthos Spike and Storyline Expert
Former Fact Prospector of the Greek Alliance.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
It would be cool if it turns out we're on Muraganda, but at the same time I think Ixalan is cool as a plane on it's own. Definitely interesting that they aren't telling us the name of the plane.
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My Decks:
UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
Looking at the big wallpaper of Admiral Beckett Brass....is the Admiral female?? The art looks more like a really badass pirate granny than anything else. And the chest region has certain curvature, to say the least.
The artist used his mum as a model. I thought that was pretty cool.
[link]
Have not caught that. Cool
It's his mother, the one swinging in on the left is his uncle, and Jason Rainville himself is the redhead with a beard swinging in the back.
It would be cool if it turns out we're on Muraganda, but at the same time I think Ixalan is cool as a plane on it's own. Definitely interesting that they aren't telling us the name of the plane.
It's still Ixalan, but that also refers the continent.
Just listened to the podcast, Cromwell would approve of the story.
For Some Context:
In the process of European colonization of the Americas that lasted over three centuries, Spain did pass some laws for the protection of Native Americans. As early as 1512, the Laws of Burgos regulated the behavior of Europeans in the New World forbidding the ill-treatment of indigenous people and limiting the power of encomenderos -- those who received royal grants of authority to impose forced labor on specific groups of natives. In 1542 the New Laws expanded and corrected the previous body of laws in order to improve their application. Although these laws were not always followed across all American territories, they reflected the will of the Spanish colonial government of the time to protect the rights of the native population.
The colonization led to debate within Spain itself about the treatment and rights of indigenous peoples in the Americas. In 1552, the Dominican friar Bartolomé de las Casas published the Brevísima relación de la destrucción de las Indias (A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies), an account of excesses committed by landowners and some officials during the early period of colonization of New Spain, particularly in Hispaniola (today Haiti and the Dominican Republic).[12] A testimony of the time accuses Columbus of brutality against the natives and forced labor. Las Casas, son of the merchant Pedro de las Casas who accompanied Columbus on his second voyage, described Columbus's treatment of the natives in his History of the Indies.[13] The writings of Las Casas are seen by some historians as exaggerated and biased. Their anti-Spanish sentiment was used by writers of Spain's rivals as a convenient basis for the Black Legend historiography. They were already used in Flemish anti-Spanish propaganda during the Eighty Years' War. Today the degree to which Las Casas's descriptions of Spanish colonization represent a reasonable or wildly exaggerated picture is still debated among some scholars. For example, historian Lewis Hanke considers Las Casas to have exaggerated the atrocities in his accounts and thereby contributed to the Black Legend propaganda.[14] Historian Benjamin Keen on the other hand found them likely to be more or less accurate.[15] In Charles Gibson's 1964 monograph The Aztecs under Spanish Rule, the first comprehensive study of the documentary sources of relations between Indians and Spaniards in New Spain (colonial Mexico), he concludes that the Black Legend builds upon the record of deliberate sadism. It flourishes in an atmosphere of indignation which removes the issue from the category of objective understanding. It is insufficient in its understanding of institutions of colonial history."[16]
This historical ill-treatment of Amerindians, common in many European colonies in the Americas, was used as propaganda in works of competing European powers to create slander and animosity against the Spanish Empire. The work of Las Casas was first cited in English with the 1583 publication The Spanish Colonie, or Brief Chronicle of the Actes and Gestes of the Spaniards in the West Indies, at a time when England was preparing for war against Spain in the Netherlands. The biased use of such works, including the distortion or exaggeration of their contents, is part of the anti-Spanish historical propaganda or Black Legend.
Im impressed that they went full steam ahead with Catholic Spanish Conquistadors = Zealous Vampires that everyone fought.
I'm also impressed that they gave the vampires an actual, y'know, reason which apparently is valid for invading. (All depends on how stolen the Immortal Sun actually is.)
I don't know the current attitude in Spain about the conquistadors, but this seems like a minefield... maybe it explains the route they took where no one is all that pure here...
Im impressed that they went full steam ahead with Catholic Spanish Conquistadors = Zealous Vampires that everyone fought.
I'm also impressed that they gave the vampires an actual, y'know, reason which apparently is valid for invading. (All depends on how stolen the Immortal Sun actually is.)
I don't know the current attitude in Spain about the conquistadors, but this seems like a minefield... maybe it explains the route they took where no one is all that pure here...
I dont mind the Conquistadors being over the top villians, but then stating being respectful and leaving out the whole Aztec human sacrifice thing seems pretty heavy handed.
Also as I posted before a lot of what happened is up for debate, the lore for the Vampires seems like a fantasy version of the Black Legend, which again seems odd if your all about being respectful and inclusive.
While I agree that Vampires as conquistador/missionary metaphors are a bit on the nose, the Aztecs weren't the only mesoamerican culture the Spanish conquered. Ixalan could be taking more inspiration from the Maya civilisation instead for example. Either way, no one is denying that the Aztecs had a very brutal culture. Since Ixalan is probably NOT supposed to be an exact metaphor for the exact conflict between the conquistadors and the Aztecs though (I'm pretty sure I would remember Aztecs riding on dinosaurs for example) I fail to see your point.
You admit that the depiction is a bit on the nose, then fail to see a point in wondering if the natives are going to be depicted accurately?
No, you missed my point in that the natives don't have to be depicted like that since they don't have to be inspired by the Aztecs. And while it isn't very subtle, I definitely don't mind the "Vampires as conquistadors" angle.
Actually the Mayans practiced ritual sacrifice in much the same manner as the Aztecs:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/6853177/#.Wad7QtFGmM8
For decades, many researchers believed Spanish accounts from the 16th and 17th centuries were biased to denigrate Indian cultures. Others argued that sacrifices were largely confined to captured warriors, while still others conceded the Aztecs were bloody, but believed the Maya were less so.
“We now have the physical evidence to corroborate the written and pictorial record,” said archaeologist Leonardo Lopez Lujan. He said, “some ‘pro-Indian’ currents had always denied this had happened. They said the texts must be lying.”
The Spaniards probably did exaggerate the sheer numbers of victims to justify a supposedly righteous war against idolatry, said David Carrasco, a Harvard Divinity School expert on Meso-American religion.
But there is no longer as much doubt about the nature of the killings. Indian pictorial texts known as “codices,” as well as Spanish accounts from the time, quote Indians as describing multiple forms of human sacrifice.
While I agree that Vampires as conquistador/missionary metaphors are a bit on the nose, the Aztecs weren't the only mesoamerican culture the Spanish conquered. Ixalan could be taking more inspiration from the Maya civilisation instead for example. Either way, no one is denying that the Aztecs had a very brutal culture. Since Ixalan is probably NOT supposed to be an exact metaphor for the exact conflict between the conquistadors and the Aztecs though (I'm pretty sure I would remember Aztecs riding on dinosaurs for example) I fail to see your point.
You admit that the depiction is a bit on the nose, then fail to see a point in wondering if the natives are going to be depicted accurately?
No, you missed my point in that the natives don't have to be depicted like that since they don't have to be inspired by the Aztecs. And while it isn't very subtle, I definitely don't mind the "Vampires as conquistadors" angle.
Actually the Mayans practiced ritual sacrifice in much the same manner as the Aztecs:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/6853177/#.Wad7QtFGmM8
For decades, many researchers believed Spanish accounts from the 16th and 17th centuries were biased to denigrate Indian cultures. Others argued that sacrifices were largely confined to captured warriors, while still others conceded the Aztecs were bloody, but believed the Maya were less so.
“We now have the physical evidence to corroborate the written and pictorial record,” said archaeologist Leonardo Lopez Lujan. He said, “some ‘pro-Indian’ currents had always denied this had happened. They said the texts must be lying.”
The Spaniards probably did exaggerate the sheer numbers of victims to justify a supposedly righteous war against idolatry, said David Carrasco, a Harvard Divinity School expert on Meso-American religion.
But there is no longer as much doubt about the nature of the killings. Indian pictorial texts known as “codices,” as well as Spanish accounts from the time, quote Indians as describing multiple forms of human sacrifice.
Interesting, but still doesn't mean that Ixalans natives have to be depicted exactly like cultures which practice human sacrifice. First off there are still other mesoamerican cultures (quite a few in fact) and second not every aspect of them has to be used exactly. No one in their right mind would say that conquistadors were actually vampires or that the mesoamerican cultures had access to dinosaurs. Yet on Ixalan they are and they do. And who knows, maybe in this world they do sacrifice their prisoners of war... just to sate their dinosaurs for example (there is no direct indication yet that this is true, but certain cards seem to point in this direction in my opinion). Their empire certainly seems to have driven off the native merfolk to a degree and the vampires seem to have a reason for going to Ixalan aside from invading. Nothing is really cut-and-dry here and I think you are reading a bit too much negativity in this.
Moving on to something else: Wizards definitely read my wishlist before making the last few sets. I got my egyptian fix, now I get my dinosaur/white vampires/simic merfolk/mesoamerican influences fix too (don't care at all about pirates, but I can see the appeal).
The inclusion of Angrath is unexpected. Do the people of Ixalan (or at least the pirate faction to a degree) know about planeswalkers? If he can't leave the plane and Ixalan or the immortal sun really have some strange metaphysical properties (perhabs similar to the Shard), then how did the R/W planeswalker ignite her spark? I think whatever is in the city might actually be the reason for these strange properties (if it isn't the immortal sun itself). Perhabs a ward similar to Avacyn? But then why would it allow anyone in, but not out?
I wonder with which faction the "basic" Jace will end up with. From the looks of it pirates, but that doesn't mean that he will stay with them.
While I agree that Vampires as conquistador/missionary metaphors are a bit on the nose, the Aztecs weren't the only mesoamerican culture the Spanish conquered. Ixalan could be taking more inspiration from the Maya civilisation instead for example. Either way, no one is denying that the Aztecs had a very brutal culture. Since Ixalan is probably NOT supposed to be an exact metaphor for the exact conflict between the conquistadors and the Aztecs though (I'm pretty sure I would remember Aztecs riding on dinosaurs for example) I fail to see your point.
You admit that the depiction is a bit on the nose, then fail to see a point in wondering if the natives are going to be depicted accurately?
No, you missed my point in that the natives don't have to be depicted like that since they don't have to be inspired by the Aztecs. And while it isn't very subtle, I definitely don't mind the "Vampires as conquistadors" angle.
Actually the Mayans practiced ritual sacrifice in much the same manner as the Aztecs:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/6853177/#.Wad7QtFGmM8
For decades, many researchers believed Spanish accounts from the 16th and 17th centuries were biased to denigrate Indian cultures. Others argued that sacrifices were largely confined to captured warriors, while still others conceded the Aztecs were bloody, but believed the Maya were less so.
“We now have the physical evidence to corroborate the written and pictorial record,” said archaeologist Leonardo Lopez Lujan. He said, “some ‘pro-Indian’ currents had always denied this had happened. They said the texts must be lying.”
The Spaniards probably did exaggerate the sheer numbers of victims to justify a supposedly righteous war against idolatry, said David Carrasco, a Harvard Divinity School expert on Meso-American religion.
But there is no longer as much doubt about the nature of the killings. Indian pictorial texts known as “codices,” as well as Spanish accounts from the time, quote Indians as describing multiple forms of human sacrifice.
Interesting, but still doesn't mean that Ixalans natives have to be depicted exactly like cultures which practice human sacrifice. First off there are still other mesoamerican cultures (quite a few in fact) and second not every aspect of them has to be used exactly. No one in their right mind would say that conquistadors were actually vampires or that the mesoamerican cultures had access to dinosaurs. Yet on Ixalan they are and they do. And who knows, maybe in this world they do sacrifice their prisoners of war... just to sate their dinosaurs for example (there is no direct indication yet that this is true, but certain cards seem to point in this direction in my opinion). Their empire certainly seems to have driven off the native merfolk to a degree and the vampires seem to have a reason for going to Ixalan aside from invading. Nothing is really cut-and-dry here and I think you are reading a bit too much negativity in this.
Did you listen to the podcast?
1. The Sun Empire is based off of the Aztec Empire with a touch of Incans, the Merfolk are based off of the Mayans.
2. The women specifically talks about wanting to be respectful and says its not about sacrifices, I guess her Latin American experts told her those weren't real?
3. Mark Rosewater on his tumblr was asked if they were worried about portraying Conquistadors into positive a light, and he said that they made them into "blood sucking vampires"
4. The women talks about the back the backstory of the Vampires, there is an iron fisted king and church that rule the Vampires and they took over a continent wiping everyone else out and the pirates are the survivors, it reads like the Black Legend but with a fantasy twist.
They are deliberately portraying the natives in positive light and either through ignorance or by choice white washing the Aztecs and Mayans. And they portraying the Spanish in negative light based on stereotypes from the real world.
4. The women talks about the back the backstory of the Vampires, there is an iron fisted king and church that rule the Vampires and they took over a continent wiping everyone else out and the pirates are the survivors, it reads like the Black Legend but with a fantasy twist.
Iron Fisted King and Church would be Orzhov or Mono-white not Black.
Well, I think that just like with the "scientifically accurate" Dinosaurs, they're worrying more about what kind of message they're sending than accuracy. Wizards is a company that wants to sell a product, so of course they're going with the portrayal that will give them the least flak. While the whole "respect" thing may be based on actual good intentions, it's also very much a business decision. They simply don't want to cause a huge controversy because they made the equivalent to the conquistadors in their game anything less than an irredeemable evil force (and if you read MaRos blog, some people still seem to get it wrong, since they equate the color W with "good"). It's understandable, really, since the amount of worldbuilding you can do on the cards themselves is limited and no matter how hard you try and make the "bad" side multilayered instead of a simple stereotype, there will always be people who will be offended, and sometimes those people can cause very real *****storms, as we've seen in the past. They're simply taking the route that is most unlikely to portray them as the offender. I don't even think that's wrong, but it's not exactly hard to imagine that they're sacrificing or at least missing out on some interesting aspects of the real world dynamics between Aztecs/Mayans and the conquistadors in the process.
I'm pretty interested in the Spanish debate/controversy about the treatmeant of the natives during that time right now. I just read about it in a non-Magic related place some days ago.
4. The women talks about the back the backstory of the Vampires, there is an iron fisted king and church that rule the Vampires and they took over a continent wiping everyone else out and the pirates are the survivors, it reads like the Black Legend but with a fantasy twist.
Iron Fisted King and Church would be Orzhov or Mono-white not Black.
No, the Black Legend, a real thing that exists today. Basically British and Dutch anti-spanish/catholic propaganda that is still apparently taught as fact.
Well, I think that just like with the "scientifically accurate" Dinosaurs, they're worrying more about what kind of message they're sending than accuracy. Wizards is a company that wants to sell a product, so of course they're going with the portrayal that will give them the least flak. While the whole "respect" thing may be based on actual good intentions, it's also very much a business decision. They simply don't want to cause a huge controversy because they made the equivalent to the conquistadors in their game anything less than an irredeemable evil force (and if you read MaRos blog, some people still seem to get it wrong, since they equate the color W with "good"). It's understandable, really, since the amount of worldbuilding you can do on the cards themselves is limited and no matter how hard you try and make the "bad" side multilayered instead of a simple stereotype, there will always be people who will be offended, and sometimes those people can cause very real *****storms, as we've seen in the past. They're simply taking the route that is most unlikely to portray them as the offender. I don't even think that's wrong, but it's not exactly hard to imagine that they're sacrificing or at least missing out on some interesting aspects of the real world dynamics between Aztecs/Mayans and the conquistadors in the process.
I'm pretty interested in the Spanish debate/controversy about the treatmeant of the natives during that time right now. I just read about it in a non-Magic related place some days ago.
With who exactly?
Most Latin American countries are on good terms with the Iberian Mother Countries, with Bolivia, Venezuela, and Cuba being the major exceptions.
Most of those countries never called it Columbus day but they still celebrate it, unironically more American states then Latin American countries don't celebrate it anymore.
And it seems in line with the "accurate" dinosaurs, we are trying to not do something but end up doing it anyhow.
They are trying not to perpetrate stereotypes by perpetuating a stereotype that isnt that dead, Kennedy was the first (and only) Catholic President and it was a huge deal.
Honestly, I find it a bit baffling to leave out human sacrifice in a fictional society (partially) based on the aztecs. It's one of the first things you think about when you hear "aztecs". Granted, it could get nasty quick, but as long as you keep it tasteful, I don't see the issue. But hey, apparently the bureau for Mesoamerican culture said human sacrifices is a no-go but conquistadors are fine. Whatever.
A point that could actually be made (but isn't, tellingly enough) is that Amonkhet had a huge religious sacrifice theme. Doing basically the same back to back might be weird.
Another thing that kind of bothers me is that the oversaturation with more or less unrelated stuff* means that we didn't get to have multiple different native societies on Ixalan. Unless you count the merfolk, which would be fair, but they're kind of like, just some random dudes running around casting spells? Personally I would have prefered multiple different empires, like how there were different poleis with different cultures on Theros. Mayans, Aztecs and Incans are all distinct enough and well-known. heck, you could even throw in some north-american societies into the mix.
*Yes, I'm still not a fan of randomly throwing pirates into the world. Dinosaurs would have been able to carry their own set. But apparently everyone on this forum loves "lol random xd" worldbuilding.
Honestly, I find it a bit baffling to leave out human sacrifice in a fictional society (partially) based on the aztecs. It's one of the first things you think about when you hear "aztecs". Granted, it could get nasty quick, but as long as you keep it tasteful, I don't see the issue. But hey, apparently the bureau for Mesoamerican culture said human sacrifices is a no-go but conquistadors are fine. Whatever.
A point that could actually be made (but isn't, tellingly enough) is that Amonkhet had a huge religious sacrifice theme. Doing basically the same back to back might be weird.
Another thing that kind of bothers me is that the oversaturation with more or less unrelated stuff* means that we didn't get to have multiple different native societies on Ixalan. Unless you count the merfolk, which would be fair, but they're kind of like, just some random dudes running around casting spells? Personally I would have prefered multiple different empires, like how there were different poleis with different cultures on Theros. Mayans, Aztecs and Incans are all distinct enough and well-known. heck, you could even throw in some north-american societies into the mix.
*Yes, I'm still not a fan of randomly throwing pirates into the world. Dinosaurs would have been able to carry their own set. But apparently everyone on this forum loves "lol random xd" worldbuilding.
Honestly, I find it a bit baffling to leave out human sacrifice in a fictional society (partially) based on the aztecs. It's one of the first things you think about when you hear "aztecs". Granted, it could get nasty quick, but as long as you keep it tasteful, I don't see the issue. But hey, apparently the bureau for Mesoamerican culture said human sacrifices is a no-go but conquistadors are fine. Whatever.
A point that could actually be made (but isn't, tellingly enough) is that Amonkhet had a huge religious sacrifice theme. Doing basically the same back to back might be weird.
We DO have sacrifice themes present. It's just a different twist. Totally agreed that two similar human sacrifice themes back to back would be a little weird. I imagine we'll see more 'Sacrifice for Dinos' popping up.
Another thing that kind of bothers me is that the oversaturation with more or less unrelated stuff* means that we didn't get to have multiple different native societies on Ixalan. Unless you count the merfolk, which would be fair, but they're kind of like, just some random dudes running around casting spells? Personally I would have prefered multiple different empires, like how there were different poleis with different cultures on Theros. Mayans, Aztecs and Incans are all distinct enough and well-known. heck, you could even throw in some north-american societies into the mix.
Aren't everyone just random dudes running around at this point? They're explicitly two different empires, with the River Heralds on the decline right now and the Sun Empire ascendant. Neither of them knowing where Orazca is plus some hints at various ruins seems to indicate there was another society there once, too.
*Yes, I'm still not a fan of randomly throwing pirates into the world. Dinosaurs would have been able to carry their own set. But apparently everyone on this forum loves "lol random xd" worldbuilding.
Yes, it's definitely everyone else who is wrong.
Seriously, their backstory is cool. They're the descendants of refugees who fled the Legion of Dusk on their home continent of Torrezon.
You admit that the depiction is a bit on the nose, then fail to see a point in wondering if the natives are going to be depicted accurately?
No, you missed my point in that the natives don't have to be depicted like that since they don't have to be inspired by the Aztecs. And while it isn't very subtle, I definitely don't mind the "Vampires as conquistadors" angle.
Actually the Mayans practiced ritual sacrifice in much the same manner as the Aztecs:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/6853177/#.Wad7QtFGmM8
For decades, many researchers believed Spanish accounts from the 16th and 17th centuries were biased to denigrate Indian cultures. Others argued that sacrifices were largely confined to captured warriors, while still others conceded the Aztecs were bloody, but believed the Maya were less so.
“We now have the physical evidence to corroborate the written and pictorial record,” said archaeologist Leonardo Lopez Lujan. He said, “some ‘pro-Indian’ currents had always denied this had happened. They said the texts must be lying.”
The Spaniards probably did exaggerate the sheer numbers of victims to justify a supposedly righteous war against idolatry, said David Carrasco, a Harvard Divinity School expert on Meso-American religion.
But there is no longer as much doubt about the nature of the killings. Indian pictorial texts known as “codices,” as well as Spanish accounts from the time, quote Indians as describing multiple forms of human sacrifice.
Interesting, but still doesn't mean that Ixalans natives have to be depicted exactly like cultures which practice human sacrifice. First off there are still other mesoamerican cultures (quite a few in fact) and second not every aspect of them has to be used exactly. No one in their right mind would say that conquistadors were actually vampires or that the mesoamerican cultures had access to dinosaurs. Yet on Ixalan they are and they do. And who knows, maybe in this world they do sacrifice their prisoners of war... just to sate their dinosaurs for example (there is no direct indication yet that this is true, but certain cards seem to point in this direction in my opinion). Their empire certainly seems to have driven off the native merfolk to a degree and the vampires seem to have a reason for going to Ixalan aside from invading. Nothing is really cut-and-dry here and I think you are reading a bit too much negativity in this.
Did you listen to the podcast?
1. The Sun Empire is based off of the Aztec Empire with a touch of Incans, the Merfolk are based off of the Mayans.
2. The women specifically talks about wanting to be respectful and says its not about sacrifices, I guess her Latin American experts told her those weren't real?
3. Mark Rosewater on his tumblr was asked if they were worried about portraying Conquistadors into positive a light, and he said that they made them into "blood sucking vampires"
4. The women talks about the back the backstory of the Vampires, there is an iron fisted king and church that rule the Vampires and they took over a continent wiping everyone else out and the pirates are the survivors, it reads like the Black Legend but with a fantasy twist.
They are deliberately portraying the natives in positive light and either through ignorance or by choice white washing the Aztecs and Mayans. And they portraying the Spanish in negative light based on stereotypes from the real world.
No, I didn't. But I still have some counters to your argument:
1. Ok, interesting. The question is: Does a fictional culture have to contain every single aspect of their real counterpart? I would say no. They are inspired by them, but just like not everything about greek and egyptian culture (including some less than great characteristics) made it into Theros and Amonkhet, the "human sacrifices" aspect didn't make it into Ixalan. The Sun Empire is also not shown to be in the right here, having removed the merfolk from much of their territory and expanding at the cost of others. And who knows what negative aspects the merfolk have (although I'm all for a sympathetic simic faction for once).
2. See 1. There are people who wouldn't like the sacrifice aspect to be made explicit. Doesn't mean that the faction is now "all good" or even decent. As I said before, they don't seem to have anything against their dinosaurs mauling the vampires, merfolk and pirates, as seen on the cards.
3. He answered a question on whether they would whitewash the conquistadors. So apparently there are people who don't really wish that to happen either.
4. Ok, here is the thing about the Black Legend: It sadly makes it a bit hard to objectively judge how much was propaganda and how much was reality. From wikipedia: "In recent years a group of historians including Alfredo Alvar and Lourdes Mateo Bretos have argued that the Black Legend does not currently exist, the Black Legend instead being merely the Spanish perception of how the world views Spain's legacy." They are not the only historians who do so.
Also: "In Charles Gibson's 1964 monograph The Aztecs under Spanish Rule, the first comprehensive study of the documentary sources of relations between Indians and Spaniards in New Spain (colonial Mexico), he concludes that the Black Legend builds upon the record of deliberate sadism. It flourishes in an atmosphere of indignation which removes the issue from the category of objective understanding. It is insufficient in its understanding of institutions of colonial history."
So the Black Legends influence on the historical record is also not cut-and-dry (which is often the case with history). It also states that Franco tried to use the Black Legend to whitewash spanish history. Being objective in such circumstances is a bit difficult.
No. As I said, the factions aren't black and white. The vampires are not on Ixalan to conquer, but to find the immortal sun. The Sun Empire is still aggressively expanding on the continent. Trying to read real world meaning into this is a bit too much in my opinion. Or should I be angry that ancient egyptian culture is portrayed as gullible in Amonkhet for believing in a false god? Or angry that the Theros gods are huge jerks? As long as the conflict isn't totally black and white, you should give Wizards a bit leeway in my opinion.
Honestly, I find it a bit baffling to leave out human sacrifice in a fictional society (partially) based on the aztecs. It's one of the first things you think about when you hear "aztecs". Granted, it could get nasty quick, but as long as you keep it tasteful, I don't see the issue. But hey, apparently the bureau for Mesoamerican culture said human sacrifices is a no-go but conquistadors are fine. Whatever.
A point that could actually be made (but isn't, tellingly enough) is that Amonkhet had a huge religious sacrifice theme. Doing basically the same back to back might be weird.
We DO have sacrifice themes present. It's just a different twist. Totally agreed that two similar human sacrifice themes back to back would be a little weird. I imagine we'll see more 'Sacrifice for Dinos' popping up.
... The cost to sacrifice a creature in Magic is so common, it doesn't even mean anything in relation to the setting.
Well, I never said people are wrong, just that I don't share this sentiment. Seeing as I was looking forward for a long time for a dinosaur plane and instead got a "a little bit of everything oh and there are dinosaurs too I guess" plane I find my complaints to be justified.
Imagine WotC announces a norse block finally, something that so many people have asked for, but not only does it have norse tropes, but also ninjas and cyborgs. I mean, it's all kind of individually popular, so clearly mashing them all together is a great idea isn't it?
Seriously, their backstory is cool. They're the descendants of refugees who fled the Legion of Dusk on their home continent of Torrezon.
Yes, they're cool. I was actually pleasantly surprised and I like them a bit more, but that doesn't mean I have to like them in Ixalan. Just like how I don't have to mix all food that tastes good individually.
You can also make up the most 'bestest' backstory for ninjas in a norse block. Still doesn't mean they will not stand out like a sore thumb.
Looking at the big wallpaper of Admiral Beckett Brass....is the Admiral female?? The art looks more like a really badass pirate granny than anything else. And the chest region has certain curvature, to say the least.
The artist used his mum as a model. I thought that was pretty cool.
[link]
That is so cool. I love the idea of the character basically being Pirate Mom (in addition to an admiral, of course). It's very endearing, almost.
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You can also make up the most 'bestest' backstory for ninjas in a norse block. Still doesn't mean they will not stand out like a sore thumb.
I don't think this is a fair comparison. If this is your complaint, it should be dinosaurs you have a problem with, not pirates. Based on the setting, they pirates are way more appropriate than the dinos.
Looking at the big wallpaper of Admiral Beckett Brass....is the Admiral female?? The art looks more like a really badass pirate granny than anything else. And the chest region has certain curvature, to say the least.
The artist used his mum as a model. I thought that was pretty cool.
[link]
That is so cool. I love the idea of the character basically being Pirate Mom (in addition to an admiral, of course). It's very endearing, almost.
Tishana, Voice of Thunder also looks like an older woman. Ixalan is the block of badass moms and aunts.
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LMAO
Have not caught that. Cool
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
Plot Twist it is Dominaira.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
Innistrad was the equivalent of the 15th century Holy Roman Empire, what would be modern day Germany.
Also it doesnt look like the Aztecs will be based off of Aztecs anymore then superficially.
Im impressed that they went full steam ahead with Catholic Spanish Conquistadors = Zealous Vampires that everyone fought.
Also interesting side note, Pirates in the Caribbean were actually mercenaries employed by Britian to attack Spanish Treasure fleets.
It's still Ixalan, but that also refers the continent.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
For Some Context:
In the process of European colonization of the Americas that lasted over three centuries, Spain did pass some laws for the protection of Native Americans. As early as 1512, the Laws of Burgos regulated the behavior of Europeans in the New World forbidding the ill-treatment of indigenous people and limiting the power of encomenderos -- those who received royal grants of authority to impose forced labor on specific groups of natives. In 1542 the New Laws expanded and corrected the previous body of laws in order to improve their application. Although these laws were not always followed across all American territories, they reflected the will of the Spanish colonial government of the time to protect the rights of the native population.
The colonization led to debate within Spain itself about the treatment and rights of indigenous peoples in the Americas. In 1552, the Dominican friar Bartolomé de las Casas published the Brevísima relación de la destrucción de las Indias (A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies), an account of excesses committed by landowners and some officials during the early period of colonization of New Spain, particularly in Hispaniola (today Haiti and the Dominican Republic).[12] A testimony of the time accuses Columbus of brutality against the natives and forced labor. Las Casas, son of the merchant Pedro de las Casas who accompanied Columbus on his second voyage, described Columbus's treatment of the natives in his History of the Indies.[13] The writings of Las Casas are seen by some historians as exaggerated and biased. Their anti-Spanish sentiment was used by writers of Spain's rivals as a convenient basis for the Black Legend historiography. They were already used in Flemish anti-Spanish propaganda during the Eighty Years' War. Today the degree to which Las Casas's descriptions of Spanish colonization represent a reasonable or wildly exaggerated picture is still debated among some scholars. For example, historian Lewis Hanke considers Las Casas to have exaggerated the atrocities in his accounts and thereby contributed to the Black Legend propaganda.[14] Historian Benjamin Keen on the other hand found them likely to be more or less accurate.[15] In Charles Gibson's 1964 monograph The Aztecs under Spanish Rule, the first comprehensive study of the documentary sources of relations between Indians and Spaniards in New Spain (colonial Mexico), he concludes that the Black Legend builds upon the record of deliberate sadism. It flourishes in an atmosphere of indignation which removes the issue from the category of objective understanding. It is insufficient in its understanding of institutions of colonial history."[16]
This historical ill-treatment of Amerindians, common in many European colonies in the Americas, was used as propaganda in works of competing European powers to create slander and animosity against the Spanish Empire. The work of Las Casas was first cited in English with the 1583 publication The Spanish Colonie, or Brief Chronicle of the Actes and Gestes of the Spaniards in the West Indies, at a time when England was preparing for war against Spain in the Netherlands. The biased use of such works, including the distortion or exaggeration of their contents, is part of the anti-Spanish historical propaganda or Black Legend.
I'm also impressed that they gave the vampires an actual, y'know, reason which apparently is valid for invading. (All depends on how stolen the Immortal Sun actually is.)
I don't know the current attitude in Spain about the conquistadors, but this seems like a minefield... maybe it explains the route they took where no one is all that pure here...
I dont mind the Conquistadors being over the top villians, but then stating being respectful and leaving out the whole Aztec human sacrifice thing seems pretty heavy handed.
Also as I posted before a lot of what happened is up for debate, the lore for the Vampires seems like a fantasy version of the Black Legend, which again seems odd if your all about being respectful and inclusive.
Actually the Mayans practiced ritual sacrifice in much the same manner as the Aztecs:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/6853177/#.Wad7QtFGmM8
For decades, many researchers believed Spanish accounts from the 16th and 17th centuries were biased to denigrate Indian cultures. Others argued that sacrifices were largely confined to captured warriors, while still others conceded the Aztecs were bloody, but believed the Maya were less so.
“We now have the physical evidence to corroborate the written and pictorial record,” said archaeologist Leonardo Lopez Lujan. He said, “some ‘pro-Indian’ currents had always denied this had happened. They said the texts must be lying.”
The Spaniards probably did exaggerate the sheer numbers of victims to justify a supposedly righteous war against idolatry, said David Carrasco, a Harvard Divinity School expert on Meso-American religion.
But there is no longer as much doubt about the nature of the killings. Indian pictorial texts known as “codices,” as well as Spanish accounts from the time, quote Indians as describing multiple forms of human sacrifice.
Interesting, but still doesn't mean that Ixalans natives have to be depicted exactly like cultures which practice human sacrifice. First off there are still other mesoamerican cultures (quite a few in fact) and second not every aspect of them has to be used exactly. No one in their right mind would say that conquistadors were actually vampires or that the mesoamerican cultures had access to dinosaurs. Yet on Ixalan they are and they do. And who knows, maybe in this world they do sacrifice their prisoners of war... just to sate their dinosaurs for example (there is no direct indication yet that this is true, but certain cards seem to point in this direction in my opinion). Their empire certainly seems to have driven off the native merfolk to a degree and the vampires seem to have a reason for going to Ixalan aside from invading. Nothing is really cut-and-dry here and I think you are reading a bit too much negativity in this.
Moving on to something else: Wizards definitely read my wishlist before making the last few sets. I got my egyptian fix, now I get my dinosaur/white vampires/simic merfolk/mesoamerican influences fix too (don't care at all about pirates, but I can see the appeal).
The inclusion of Angrath is unexpected. Do the people of Ixalan (or at least the pirate faction to a degree) know about planeswalkers? If he can't leave the plane and Ixalan or the immortal sun really have some strange metaphysical properties (perhabs similar to the Shard), then how did the R/W planeswalker ignite her spark? I think whatever is in the city might actually be the reason for these strange properties (if it isn't the immortal sun itself). Perhabs a ward similar to Avacyn? But then why would it allow anyone in, but not out?
I wonder with which faction the "basic" Jace will end up with. From the looks of it pirates, but that doesn't mean that he will stay with them.
Did you listen to the podcast?
1. The Sun Empire is based off of the Aztec Empire with a touch of Incans, the Merfolk are based off of the Mayans.
2. The women specifically talks about wanting to be respectful and says its not about sacrifices, I guess her Latin American experts told her those weren't real?
3. Mark Rosewater on his tumblr was asked if they were worried about portraying Conquistadors into positive a light, and he said that they made them into "blood sucking vampires"
4. The women talks about the back the backstory of the Vampires, there is an iron fisted king and church that rule the Vampires and they took over a continent wiping everyone else out and the pirates are the survivors, it reads like the Black Legend but with a fantasy twist.
They are deliberately portraying the natives in positive light and either through ignorance or by choice white washing the Aztecs and Mayans. And they portraying the Spanish in negative light based on stereotypes from the real world.
Which brings important question: Can we expect the Inquisition?
Iron Fisted King and Church would be Orzhov or Mono-white not Black.
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I'm pretty interested in the Spanish debate/controversy about the treatmeant of the natives during that time right now. I just read about it in a non-Magic related place some days ago.
No, the Black Legend, a real thing that exists today. Basically British and Dutch anti-spanish/catholic propaganda that is still apparently taught as fact.
With who exactly?
Most Latin American countries are on good terms with the Iberian Mother Countries, with Bolivia, Venezuela, and Cuba being the major exceptions.
Most of those countries never called it Columbus day but they still celebrate it, unironically more American states then Latin American countries don't celebrate it anymore.
And it seems in line with the "accurate" dinosaurs, we are trying to not do something but end up doing it anyhow.
They are trying not to perpetrate stereotypes by perpetuating a stereotype that isnt that dead, Kennedy was the first (and only) Catholic President and it was a huge deal.
A point that could actually be made (but isn't, tellingly enough) is that Amonkhet had a huge religious sacrifice theme. Doing basically the same back to back might be weird.
Another thing that kind of bothers me is that the oversaturation with more or less unrelated stuff* means that we didn't get to have multiple different native societies on Ixalan. Unless you count the merfolk, which would be fair, but they're kind of like, just some random dudes running around casting spells? Personally I would have prefered multiple different empires, like how there were different poleis with different cultures on Theros. Mayans, Aztecs and Incans are all distinct enough and well-known. heck, you could even throw in some north-american societies into the mix.
*Yes, I'm still not a fan of randomly throwing pirates into the world. Dinosaurs would have been able to carry their own set. But apparently everyone on this forum loves "lol random xd" worldbuilding.
Its not random:
Aren't everyone just random dudes running around at this point? They're explicitly two different empires, with the River Heralds on the decline right now and the Sun Empire ascendant. Neither of them knowing where Orazca is plus some hints at various ruins seems to indicate there was another society there once, too.
Yes, it's definitely everyone else who is wrong.
Seriously, their backstory is cool. They're the descendants of refugees who fled the Legion of Dusk on their home continent of Torrezon.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
No, I didn't. But I still have some counters to your argument:
1. Ok, interesting. The question is: Does a fictional culture have to contain every single aspect of their real counterpart? I would say no. They are inspired by them, but just like not everything about greek and egyptian culture (including some less than great characteristics) made it into Theros and Amonkhet, the "human sacrifices" aspect didn't make it into Ixalan. The Sun Empire is also not shown to be in the right here, having removed the merfolk from much of their territory and expanding at the cost of others. And who knows what negative aspects the merfolk have (although I'm all for a sympathetic simic faction for once).
2. See 1. There are people who wouldn't like the sacrifice aspect to be made explicit. Doesn't mean that the faction is now "all good" or even decent. As I said before, they don't seem to have anything against their dinosaurs mauling the vampires, merfolk and pirates, as seen on the cards.
3. He answered a question on whether they would whitewash the conquistadors. So apparently there are people who don't really wish that to happen either.
4. Ok, here is the thing about the Black Legend: It sadly makes it a bit hard to objectively judge how much was propaganda and how much was reality. From wikipedia: "In recent years a group of historians including Alfredo Alvar and Lourdes Mateo Bretos have argued that the Black Legend does not currently exist, the Black Legend instead being merely the Spanish perception of how the world views Spain's legacy." They are not the only historians who do so.
Also: "In Charles Gibson's 1964 monograph The Aztecs under Spanish Rule, the first comprehensive study of the documentary sources of relations between Indians and Spaniards in New Spain (colonial Mexico), he concludes that the Black Legend builds upon the record of deliberate sadism. It flourishes in an atmosphere of indignation which removes the issue from the category of objective understanding. It is insufficient in its understanding of institutions of colonial history."
So the Black Legends influence on the historical record is also not cut-and-dry (which is often the case with history). It also states that Franco tried to use the Black Legend to whitewash spanish history. Being objective in such circumstances is a bit difficult.
No. As I said, the factions aren't black and white. The vampires are not on Ixalan to conquer, but to find the immortal sun. The Sun Empire is still aggressively expanding on the continent. Trying to read real world meaning into this is a bit too much in my opinion. Or should I be angry that ancient egyptian culture is portrayed as gullible in Amonkhet for believing in a false god? Or angry that the Theros gods are huge jerks? As long as the conflict isn't totally black and white, you should give Wizards a bit leeway in my opinion.
That relates to my post how exactly?
... The cost to sacrifice a creature in Magic is so common, it doesn't even mean anything in relation to the setting.
Well, I never said people are wrong, just that I don't share this sentiment. Seeing as I was looking forward for a long time for a dinosaur plane and instead got a "a little bit of everything oh and there are dinosaurs too I guess" plane I find my complaints to be justified.
Imagine WotC announces a norse block finally, something that so many people have asked for, but not only does it have norse tropes, but also ninjas and cyborgs. I mean, it's all kind of individually popular, so clearly mashing them all together is a great idea isn't it?
Yes, they're cool. I was actually pleasantly surprised and I like them a bit more, but that doesn't mean I have to like them in Ixalan. Just like how I don't have to mix all food that tastes good individually.
You can also make up the most 'bestest' backstory for ninjas in a norse block. Still doesn't mean they will not stand out like a sore thumb.
That is so cool. I love the idea of the character basically being Pirate Mom (in addition to an admiral, of course). It's very endearing, almost.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Tishana, Voice of Thunder also looks like an older woman. Ixalan is the block of badass moms and aunts.