So they mention Huatli hearing the 5 heartbeats of the elder dinos. We know one is missing, but it's apparently not Zacama and may not matter in the slightest.
Who knows, maybe the missing one is Nezahal and it interferes with the vampires as they try to leave Ixalan.
That could be fun, introduce the idea that not only do Torrezon and High&Dry know about Ixalan. Ixalan now knows about Torrezon and High&Dry, and about seafaring boats they can surelly reverse-engineer.
We know Innistrad is just a (mini)continent in a much larger world, but they don't really seem to care to show us that world because Innistrad is Horror World and the other continents haven't even been named. But here we know there's an empire much larger than Ixalan and have the supposition that there still are a couple places in that continent where orcs are fighting the vampires' advance. This is a world after 4 sets that pretty much focused entirelly in a single city/territory and I think that's part of why some feel so unfulfilled with the story, there's still a lot to explore about this setting and it may be a very long while before we return because there's not much else here for planeswalkers to care.
Which is a damned shame.
We've got an unexplored place to come back to (Torrezon) with a new conflict to see unfold (possible Vampire civil war, plus expansionist Sun Empire, plus Pirates opportunistically reclaiming the Free Cities) but no clear reason to come back (since nothing about Ixalan is relevant to the greater plot now that the Immortal Sun is gone).
So they mention Huatli hearing the 5 heartbeats of the elder dinos. We know one is missing, but it's apparently not Zacama and may not matter in the slightest.
Who knows, maybe the missing one is Nezahal and it interferes with the vampires as they try to leave Ixalan.
That could be fun, introduce the idea that not only do Torrezon and High&Dry know about Ixalan. Ixalan now knows about Torrezon and High&Dry, and about seafaring boats they can surelly reverse-engineer.
We know Innistrad is just a (mini)continent in a much larger world, but they don't really seem to care to show us that world because Innistrad is Horror World and the other continents haven't even been named. But here we know there's an empire much larger than Ixalan and have the supposition that there still are a couple places in that continent where orcs are fighting the vampires' advance. This is a world after 4 sets that pretty much focused entirelly in a single city/territory and I think that's part of why some feel so unfulfilled with the story, there's still a lot to explore about this setting and it may be a very long while before we return because there's not much else here for planeswalkers to care.
Which is a damned shame.
We've got an unexplored place to come back to (Torrezon) with a new conflict to see unfold (possible Vampire civil war, plus expansionist Sun Empire, plus Pirates opportunistically reclaiming the Free Cities) but no clear reason to come back (since nothing about Ixalan is relevant to the greater plot now that the Immortal Sun is gone).
It'd be nice if we didn't have to visit every single plane because it's important to the overarching plot. Can't we have a plane visit occasionally just for tying up loose ends or exploring that particular plane as a brief distraction?
So they mention Huatli hearing the 5 heartbeats of the elder dinos. We know one is missing, but it's apparently not Zacama and may not matter in the slightest.
Who knows, maybe the missing one is Nezahal and it interferes with the vampires as they try to leave Ixalan.
That could be fun, introduce the idea that not only do Torrezon and High&Dry know about Ixalan. Ixalan now knows about Torrezon and High&Dry, and about seafaring boats they can surelly reverse-engineer.
We know Innistrad is just a (mini)continent in a much larger world, but they don't really seem to care to show us that world because Innistrad is Horror World and the other continents haven't even been named. But here we know there's an empire much larger than Ixalan and have the supposition that there still are a couple places in that continent where orcs are fighting the vampires' advance. This is a world after 4 sets that pretty much focused entirelly in a single city/territory and I think that's part of why some feel so unfulfilled with the story, there's still a lot to explore about this setting and it may be a very long while before we return because there's not much else here for planeswalkers to care.
Which is a damned shame.
We've got an unexplored place to come back to (Torrezon) with a new conflict to see unfold (possible Vampire civil war, plus expansionist Sun Empire, plus Pirates opportunistically reclaiming the Free Cities) but no clear reason to come back (since nothing about Ixalan is relevant to the greater plot now that the Immortal Sun is gone).
It'd be nice if we didn't have to visit every single plane because it's important to the overarching plot. Can't we have a plane visit occasionally just for tying up loose ends or exploring that particular plane as a brief distraction?
I agree. It would be nice to have a nice little break. An intermission of sorts. But it's been literal years since we've been to a plane that didn't tie into the main story (not counting supplementary sets like Conspiracy), so I fear that we simply won't be going anywhere in the foreseeable future that isn't.
So they mention Huatli hearing the 5 heartbeats of the elder dinos. We know one is missing, but it's apparently not Zacama and may not matter in the slightest.
Who knows, maybe the missing one is Nezahal and it interferes with the vampires as they try to leave Ixalan.
That could be fun, introduce the idea that not only do Torrezon and High&Dry know about Ixalan. Ixalan now knows about Torrezon and High&Dry, and about seafaring boats they can surelly reverse-engineer.
We know Innistrad is just a (mini)continent in a much larger world, but they don't really seem to care to show us that world because Innistrad is Horror World and the other continents haven't even been named. But here we know there's an empire much larger than Ixalan and have the supposition that there still are a couple places in that continent where orcs are fighting the vampires' advance. This is a world after 4 sets that pretty much focused entirelly in a single city/territory and I think that's part of why some feel so unfulfilled with the story, there's still a lot to explore about this setting and it may be a very long while before we return because there's not much else here for planeswalkers to care.
Which is a damned shame.
We've got an unexplored place to come back to (Torrezon) with a new conflict to see unfold (possible Vampire civil war, plus expansionist Sun Empire, plus Pirates opportunistically reclaiming the Free Cities) but no clear reason to come back (since nothing about Ixalan is relevant to the greater plot now that the Immortal Sun is gone).
It'd be nice if we didn't have to visit every single plane because it's important to the overarching plot. Can't we have a plane visit occasionally just for tying up loose ends or exploring that particular plane as a brief distraction?
I agree. It would be nice to have a nice little break. An intermission of sorts. But it's been literal years since we've been to a plane that didn't tie into the main story (not counting supplementary sets like Conspiracy), so I fear that we simply won't be going anywhere in the foreseeable future that isn't.
That would be a less than ideal thing to do, especially since sets can now travel to worlds without having entire blocks set on them.
Also, I've been thinking about the cards in Rivals, and if I was just thinking about the cards and ignoring everything else, the chronological sequence of the story as depicted in the cards would be like this:
With a return to core sets, they can throw in cards with art and flavor text that satisfies some of our curiosity to the future of these planes without having to dedicate a whole block to it. Plus, they can throw a couple of pieces of old mechanics into Standard to spice things up. Whether they are willing to go back to story telling through cards without slamming a huge walker symbol in the text box or actually contradicting art/bundle books is up to them.
So they mention Huatli hearing the 5 heartbeats of the elder dinos. We know one is missing, but it's apparently not Zacama and may not matter in the slightest.
Who knows, maybe the missing one is Nezahal and it interferes with the vampires as they try to leave Ixalan.
That could be fun, introduce the idea that not only do Torrezon and High&Dry know about Ixalan. Ixalan now knows about Torrezon and High&Dry, and about seafaring boats they can surelly reverse-engineer.
We know Innistrad is just a (mini)continent in a much larger world, but they don't really seem to care to show us that world because Innistrad is Horror World and the other continents haven't even been named. But here we know there's an empire much larger than Ixalan and have the supposition that there still are a couple places in that continent where orcs are fighting the vampires' advance. This is a world after 4 sets that pretty much focused entirelly in a single city/territory and I think that's part of why some feel so unfulfilled with the story, there's still a lot to explore about this setting and it may be a very long while before we return because there's not much else here for planeswalkers to care.
Which is a damned shame.
We've got an unexplored place to come back to (Torrezon) with a new conflict to see unfold (possible Vampire civil war, plus expansionist Sun Empire, plus Pirates opportunistically reclaiming the Free Cities) but no clear reason to come back (since nothing about Ixalan is relevant to the greater plot now that the Immortal Sun is gone).
A plane can have storyline if creative, marketing or design want it too and if the plane is popular. The meeting point for the gatewatch didn't have to be Dominaria but they wanted it to be for the 25th anniversary.
subbak asked: Every time you refer to Kaladesh as steampunk, I am saddened because it means we'll never see a real steampunk plane (i.e. one inspired by Victorian England, or at least 19th century Western Europe and U.S). Steampunk with an India-based culture (as seen in the architecture and clothing) makes as much sense as gothic horror in a Japan-based culture. There's a reason Innistrad looks German and not Japanese, why did you not apply the same logic to Kaladesh?
A: My take away from this question was - ooh, Japanese gothic horror sounds cool.
Part of inventing worlds is putting our spin on them.
vorrenthalla-deactivated2017081 asked: Original Innistrad was gothic horror. Shadows over Innistrad was cosmic horror. What other horror genres could you see doing with Innistrad in future?
A: I think any horror sub-genre is fair game (well, as long as it stays within fantasy).
and add in the fact what is horror is seen and told differently by region, make me wonder if we might see in the future different culture horror tropes( such as J-Horror) from the different contentions on Innistrad (but Gothic Horror lean Innistrad is known for).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Edit: oh and I also agree and disagree with those complaining about Huatli’s character.
As a dude who sees a lot of White’s strengths and weaknesses in himself I find it perfectly alright for her character to have been more than a little naive, self-righteous and hypocritical.
What was lacking however was a little narrative aside where she deliberately engages with that aspect of herself, admits her strengths, weaknesses and acknowledgment that she is no longer the same and s commitment to prevent the escalation of needless conflict.
The lack of the latter was truly surprising. Just as Narset and Samut’s birth Planes needed them at home more than abroad at thier particular times, so does Huatli’s Ixalan. Her family could be pressed into a needless war and die!
By no means should a planeswalker not use thier gift to explore the planes, learn and grow, but I would find it hard to leave if I was in Huatli’s shoes and given what she learned at the closing of her quest.
Her concept wasn't bad, her execution was. I like Gideon. Huatli was paint by numbers.
Also, the following isn't directed toward you Orzhov, I'd rather create a separate post without the quote but I'd get yelled at for that. From my reading of the most recent story, it seemed obvious that the Sun Empire was being set up as the bad guys for the next Ixilan set. Emperor ******** was clearly stating that he was going to claim Orazca and conquer the continent with its power, which is stated to still be massive without the sun.
So we know that Emperor "Only fake Aztec written with any depth" intends to do that. The people of the Sun Empire seem to be generally decent folk, but the Emperor is clearly power hungry and cynical based on all the characterization we've had so far. Lets look at where the other four factions stand:
The River Heralds: Kumena got tossed out of a window like the contents of a chamber pot. He's not dead, but he's sidelined hard. The rest of the heralds are led by Tishana, at least somewhat. They are still not terribly united as a faction, but Tishana is the most powerful and respected leader. Her goal is to share Orazca in peace and harmony with the Sun Empire. She is clever, and likely has fail safes, but she is also honest and that goal is in line with what we know of her character. We also know that the river heralds are the weakest faction overall in terms of numbers. They have fought using trickery and ambushes, and held their own in the past because their goal was to keep a magically hidden city hidden. Its unclear how they would do in a direct war with the Sun Empire, but going by past examples from the story apparently they tend to lose. I expect them to fare the same if it comes to blows, especially if the emperor uses his knowledge of the planned peace to feign partnership before attacking.
The Brazen Coalition: Marginally organized under a strong leader, but their power is at sea. We see them in full retreat in this story (not that they had any representation except Vraska's crew anyway). They are the wildcard. I don't see them suddenly showing up in force and taking the city, but if anyone was going to do that it would be pirates. Probably at night when nobody is looking.
The Legion of Dusk: Elenda is back, the living saint that vamps would follow to their deaths, and her message is "pack up and go home to be monks". She is intent on abandoning Ixalan to return home and set her country right. Mavren is all in. Vona isn't. I expect this to play out similarly among the whole faction, some vampires (and humans) will follow Elenda whole heartedly, reveling in her new revelation as a glorious end to war, while others like Vona will chafe having grown accustomed to conquest and enjoying bloodshed. I expect both sides will follow at first, but the Vona vamps may attempt an assassination or betrayal. I do not expect this to happen before everyone goes home, but I expect that is exactly what will happen during the alternate ending, though if they get attacked while they are packing up I could see Elenda deciding to take Orazca as a defensive maneuver, though that's unlikely. I see the vamps being out of the game by the end of the story, having chosen to remove themselves from the conflict.
So, we're left with the Emperor marching into Orazca, stomping the river heralds, then setting forth to conquer the rest of the continent and planning to build ships and sail out to High and Dry and Torezzon. Its the story that makes the most narrative sense based on what has transpired and how it mirrors the structure of the current block. The bloodthirsty invaders have seen the light and voluntarily retreated home, only to be invaded by the noble warriors who once resisted them, the shoe on the other foot, with the invaders the villains in both cases. Where the villains were monstrous with some redeeming qualities in Ixalan, they will be noble with a dark side in Torezzon. Pirates will still be wild cards, fleeing the Sun Empire while trying to reclaim a footing in their homeland. The heralds will still be mostly absent. Conveniently, Huatli is taking her little planeswalker vacation during the period where she could prevent this. The Emperor, knowing everything that Huatli has told him, and seeing her not show up, can simply lie to everyone. He can say how the heralds plan to take the city and take back Sun Empire conquests, and how the vamps and pirates are regrouping, that they can strike while the iron is hot, and his expansionist nation will eat it up. Huatli will also be completely unable to go warn Tishana, because she's off on her vacation. Thus, we'll get to see a Naya villain faction with a generally sympathetic population face off against grixis, simic, and orzhov "heroes" (ymmv, some are more anti-heroes, expect betrayals). That's a new narrative kick and more satisfying than Kumena doing anything or pirates trying to take over the world, or grimdark vampires the retread.
Scars block was always going to end with New Phyrexia triumphant because that made narrative sense. Tell me, would it make sense for Creative to abandon the best narrative because the river heralds go the most votes and their stuck trying to make Kumena completely overwriting the entire culture's MO, without the Immortal Sun as a driving force? Or figuring out how to make Pirates in charge work when it would destroy everything that makes them like able and Orazca is inland? Maybe seeing Vona stab Elenda in the back, kill Mavren, and take the reins of the Legion would work, but we have two options that would be dumb, please excuse me for disbelieving that would be left to chance, especially since it wasn't the last time we did this.
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I agree with the post overall, but this I want clarification for.
The sun Empire is fake Aztec like the Legion of Dusk is fake Spanish. The only two Sun Empire characters that got enough time devoted to them to be anything more than extras were Huatli and the emperor. Her cousin showed up a few times but was clearly a sidekick and wasn't developed at all, and the rest of the sun Empire characters got even less.
Now, with so many factions and characters the story was always going to be limited on how many character could be developed, so each faction would only get a couple. Pirates got all the walkers except Huatli. Merfolk got Kumena, Tishana, and the other legend. Sun Empire got Huatli and the emperor. Vamps got Vona, Mavren, and Elenda. The pirate walkers were all developed well, with Jace and Vraska getting as much character development in two sets as they had since they were introduced, and Angrath being surprisingly layered, with caring for his family and a well thought out and intriguing BR philosophy hiding beneath his caps lock HULK outbursts. Vona and Mavren were caricatures, but Elenda was interesting. Kumena was like Mavren and Vona, but the other merfolk had nuance. The emperor had a lot going on, charming and seemingly level headed but cynical and power hungry, he's a complex character. Huatli, on the other hand, was underdeveloped and one note. She wants to be the warrior poet. She fights for the empire and tells stories. She wants to do what's right, but only sees what's right in front of her. She's horribly naive. None of this really changes over the course of the story, even with her adventure, becoming a walker, and finding out that the Merfolk are pretty swell and her emperor is a warmonger. She was never a xenophobe, so being willing to work with Tishana and wanting peace with the Merfolk isn't development. She doesn't change her views on the vampires, she wants to drive them off and the only reason she tells the emperor not to attack Adanto is because they are leaving. She doesn't learn to be less trusting, doesn't change her view on the world, and is the same person at the end of the story as she was in the flashback of her as a kid, and that person isn't very layered or interesting.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I agree with the post overall, but this I want clarification for.
The sun Empire is fake Aztec like the Legion of Dusk is fake Spanish. The only two Sun Empire characters that got enough time devoted to them to be anything more than extras were Huatli and the emperor. Her cousin showed up a few times but was clearly a sidekick and wasn't developed at all, and the rest of the sun Empire characters got even less.
Now, with so many factions and characters the story was always going to be limited on how many character could be developed, so each faction would only get a couple. Pirates got all the walkers except Huatli. Merfolk got Kumena, Tishana, and the other legend. Sun Empire got Huatli and the emperor. Vamps got Vona, Mavren, and Elenda. The pirate walkers were all developed well, with Jace and Vraska getting as much character development in two sets as they had since they were introduced, and Angrath being surprisingly layered, with caring for his family and a well thought out and intriguing BR philosophy hiding beneath his caps lock HULK outbursts. Vona and Mavren were caricatures, but Elenda was interesting. Kumena was like Mavren and Vona, but the other merfolk had nuance. The emperor had a lot going on, charming and seemingly level headed but cynical and power hungry, he's a complex character. Huatli, on the other hand, was underdeveloped and one note. She wants to be the warrior poet. She fights for the empire and tells stories. She wants to do what's right, but only sees what's right in front of her. She's horribly naive. None of this really changes over the course of the story, even with her adventure, becoming a walker, and finding out that the Merfolk are pretty swell and her emperor is a warmonger. She was never a xenophobe, so being willing to work with Tishana and wanting peace with the Merfolk isn't development. She doesn't change her views on the vampires, she wants to drive them off and the only reason she tells the emperor not to attack Adanto is because they are leaving. She doesn't learn to be less trusting, doesn't change her view on the world, and is the same person at the end of the story as she was in the flashback of her as a kid, and that person isn't very layered or interesting.
I'd argue that a character that doesn't change in terms of their convictions or outlook on the world despite all their experiences can be an interesting thing too if done properly. Huatli probably isn't that, but I just wanted to point that out.
Regardless, thanks for explaining. I also agree that Apatzec is the most interesting character from the Sun Empire faction, but I doubt we'll get anything more from him unless they return to Ixalan either directly through a proper return set (which I wouldn't mind, given all the low-hanging plot fruit for both Ixalan continents) or in snapshots through Core/supplementary sets.
I agree with the post overall, but this I want clarification for.
The sun Empire is fake Aztec like the Legion of Dusk is fake Spanish. The only two Sun Empire characters that got enough time devoted to them to be anything more than extras were Huatli and the emperor. Her cousin showed up a few times but was clearly a sidekick and wasn't developed at all, and the rest of the sun Empire characters got even less.
Now, with so many factions and characters the story was always going to be limited on how many character could be developed, so each faction would only get a couple. Pirates got all the walkers except Huatli. Merfolk got Kumena, Tishana, and the other legend. Sun Empire got Huatli and the emperor. Vamps got Vona, Mavren, and Elenda. The pirate walkers were all developed well, with Jace and Vraska getting as much character development in two sets as they had since they were introduced, and Angrath being surprisingly layered, with caring for his family and a well thought out and intriguing BR philosophy hiding beneath his caps lock HULK outbursts. Vona and Mavren were caricatures, but Elenda was interesting. Kumena was like Mavren and Vona, but the other merfolk had nuance. The emperor had a lot going on, charming and seemingly level headed but cynical and power hungry, he's a complex character. Huatli, on the other hand, was underdeveloped and one note. She wants to be the warrior poet. She fights for the empire and tells stories. She wants to do what's right, but only sees what's right in front of her. She's horribly naive. None of this really changes over the course of the story, even with her adventure, becoming a walker, and finding out that the Merfolk are pretty swell and her emperor is a warmonger. She was never a xenophobe, so being willing to work with Tishana and wanting peace with the Merfolk isn't development. She doesn't change her views on the vampires, she wants to drive them off and the only reason she tells the emperor not to attack Adanto is because they are leaving. She doesn't learn to be less trusting, doesn't change her view on the world, and is the same person at the end of the story as she was in the flashback of her as a kid, and that person isn't very layered or interesting.
I'd argue that a character that doesn't change in terms of their convictions or outlook on the world despite all their experiences can be an interesting thing too if done properly. Huatli probably isn't that, but I just wanted to point that out.
Regardless, thanks for explaining. I also agree that Apatzec is the most interesting character from the Sun Empire faction, but I doubt we'll get anything more from him unless they return to Ixalan either directly through a proper return set (which I wouldn't mind, given all the low-hanging plot fruit for both Ixalan continents) or in snapshots through Core/supplementary sets.
I agree, but in order for a character who doesn't change to be interesting they either have to be interesting from the get go, which Huatli wasn't, or their adventure and experiences should reinforce their personality in some way, making them more certain of their path, more intensely devoted to it, have them doubt themselves and consider change before realizing they are at their best the way they are (or tragically falling back into old patterns and missing an opportunity for change), facing a struggle or sacrifice because of being true to themselves (Ned and Robb Stark), or even just understanding who they are better and having this thoughtfully relayed to the audience. I don't feel that Huatli actually does any of these things. She's a Mary Sue, but like all Mary Sues the story fails to realize her shortcomings or only superficially addresses them (it presented her irresponsible planeswalking and forgoing of the honor of being named Warrior poet, which was her primary motivation for finding the golden city, as character development, when it's just her continuing to be overconfident, entitled, and selfish while listening to everyone tell her how great she is. She doesn't realize any sort of character growth, or learn any lesson like her pursuit of the warrior poet title was for personal glory and she should learn humility and do good without worrying about recognition, she abandons it because of how much more awesome she is now that she can planeswalk shes above being just a warrior poet for one nation.)
And actually, someone help me figure out what Huatli actually did in this story. As far as I can see, all she has done is give information to the emperor and make Tishana think that the Sun Empire might be interested in peace (spoiler alert, they aren't). She didn't find Orazca, Jace/Vraska and Kumena did. She didn't stop Angrath, nor did she help him. She didn't stop Kumena, the vamps did. She didn't stop the vamps either. She killed a few vamps at the shipwreck, but I don't remember that actually making a difference. She got a bunch of her own dinos killed. Did she help Jace and Vraska inadvertently during the chase? I thought that was Tishana, who basically didn't rely on Huatli for anything. She yelled at Elenda, but didn't persuade her in any way, nor did he awaken her, she just happened to be there when she emerged from the temple. She didn't even do anything with the elder dinos until she used Zacama as an uber AFTER all the fighting was done and everyone was headed home. The only purpose she served in the entire block was to give us a SunnEmpire PoV character that more interesting characters could talk to, and to find out that the Merfolk were open to peace, and to completely fail to put this information to use. Again, maybe she helped during the chase, I have to reread it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I agree with the post overall, but this I want clarification for.
The sun Empire is fake Aztec like the Legion of Dusk is fake Spanish. The only two Sun Empire characters that got enough time devoted to them to be anything more than extras were Huatli and the emperor. Her cousin showed up a few times but was clearly a sidekick and wasn't developed at all, and the rest of the sun Empire characters got even less.
Now, with so many factions and characters the story was always going to be limited on how many character could be developed, so each faction would only get a couple. Pirates got all the walkers except Huatli. Merfolk got Kumena, Tishana, and the other legend. Sun Empire got Huatli and the emperor. Vamps got Vona, Mavren, and Elenda. The pirate walkers were all developed well, with Jace and Vraska getting as much character development in two sets as they had since they were introduced, and Angrath being surprisingly layered, with caring for his family and a well thought out and intriguing BR philosophy hiding beneath his caps lock HULK outbursts. Vona and Mavren were caricatures, but Elenda was interesting. Kumena was like Mavren and Vona, but the other merfolk had nuance. The emperor had a lot going on, charming and seemingly level headed but cynical and power hungry, he's a complex character. Huatli, on the other hand, was underdeveloped and one note. She wants to be the warrior poet. She fights for the empire and tells stories. She wants to do what's right, but only sees what's right in front of her. She's horribly naive. None of this really changes over the course of the story, even with her adventure, becoming a walker, and finding out that the Merfolk are pretty swell and her emperor is a warmonger. She was never a xenophobe, so being willing to work with Tishana and wanting peace with the Merfolk isn't development. She doesn't change her views on the vampires, she wants to drive them off and the only reason she tells the emperor not to attack Adanto is because they are leaving. She doesn't learn to be less trusting, doesn't change her view on the world, and is the same person at the end of the story as she was in the flashback of her as a kid, and that person isn't very layered or interesting.
I'd argue that a character that doesn't change in terms of their convictions or outlook on the world despite all their experiences can be an interesting thing too if done properly. Huatli probably isn't that, but I just wanted to point that out.
Regardless, thanks for explaining. I also agree that Apatzec is the most interesting character from the Sun Empire faction, but I doubt we'll get anything more from him unless they return to Ixalan either directly through a proper return set (which I wouldn't mind, given all the low-hanging plot fruit for both Ixalan continents) or in snapshots through Core/supplementary sets.
I agree, but in order for a character who doesn't change to be interesting they either have to be interesting from the get go, which Huatli wasn't, or their adventure and experiences should reinforce their personality in some way, making them more certain of their path, more intensely devoted to it, have them doubt themselves and consider change before realizing they are at their best the way they are (or tragically falling back into old patterns and missing an opportunity for change), facing a struggle or sacrifice because of being true to themselves (Ned and Robb Stark), or even just understanding who they are better and having this thoughtfully relayed to the audience. I don't feel that Huatli actually does any of these things. She's a Mary Sue, but like all Mary Sues the story fails to realize her shortcomings or only superficially addresses them (it presented her irresponsible planeswalking and forgoing of the honor of being named Warrior poet, which was her primary motivation for finding the golden city, as character development, when it's just her continuing to be overconfident, entitled, and selfish while listening to everyone tell her how great she is. She doesn't realize any sort of character growth, or learn any lesson like her pursuit of the warrior poet title was for personal glory and she should learn humility and do good without worrying about recognition, she abandons it because of how much more awesome she is now that she can planeswalk shes above being just a warrior poet for one nation.)
And actually, someone help me figure out what Huatli actually did in this story. As far as I can see, all she has done is give information to the emperor and make Tishana think that the Sun Empire might be interested in peace (spoiler alert, they aren't). She didn't find Orazca, Jace/Vraska and Kumena did. She didn't stop Angrath, nor did she help him. She didn't stop Kumena, the vamps did. She didn't stop the vamps either. She killed a few vamps at the shipwreck, but I don't remember that actually making a difference. She got a bunch of her own dinos killed. Did she help Jace and Vraska inadvertently during the chase? I thought that was Tishana, who basically didn't rely on Huatli for anything. She yelled at Elenda, but didn't persuade her in any way, nor did he awaken her, she just happened to be there when she emerged from the temple. She didn't even do anything with the elder dinos until she used Zacama as an uber AFTER all the fighting was done and everyone was headed home. The only purpose she served in the entire block was to give us a SunnEmpire PoV character that more interesting characters could talk to, and to find out that the Merfolk were open to peace, and to completely fail to put this information to use. Again, maybe she helped during the chase, I have to reread it.
She did help beat down Vona (who was exhausted from running) long enough to take the Thaumatic Compass from her, if my memory serves.
But yeah, Huatli didn't really do all that much after all is said and done. To be fair though, at least she told Apatzec the truth of how she managed to get to Orazca.
I agree with the post overall, but this I want clarification for.
The sun Empire is fake Aztec like the Legion of Dusk is fake Spanish. The only two Sun Empire characters that got enough time devoted to them to be anything more than extras were Huatli and the emperor. Her cousin showed up a few times but was clearly a sidekick and wasn't developed at all, and the rest of the sun Empire characters got even less.
Now, with so many factions and characters the story was always going to be limited on how many character could be developed, so each faction would only get a couple. Pirates got all the walkers except Huatli. Merfolk got Kumena, Tishana, and the other legend. Sun Empire got Huatli and the emperor. Vamps got Vona, Mavren, and Elenda. The pirate walkers were all developed well, with Jace and Vraska getting as much character development in two sets as they had since they were introduced, and Angrath being surprisingly layered, with caring for his family and a well thought out and intriguing BR philosophy hiding beneath his caps lock HULK outbursts. Vona and Mavren were caricatures, but Elenda was interesting. Kumena was like Mavren and Vona, but the other merfolk had nuance. The emperor had a lot going on, charming and seemingly level headed but cynical and power hungry, he's a complex character. Huatli, on the other hand, was underdeveloped and one note. She wants to be the warrior poet. She fights for the empire and tells stories. She wants to do what's right, but only sees what's right in front of her. She's horribly naive. None of this really changes over the course of the story, even with her adventure, becoming a walker, and finding out that the Merfolk are pretty swell and her emperor is a warmonger. She was never a xenophobe, so being willing to work with Tishana and wanting peace with the Merfolk isn't development. She doesn't change her views on the vampires, she wants to drive them off and the only reason she tells the emperor not to attack Adanto is because they are leaving. She doesn't learn to be less trusting, doesn't change her view on the world, and is the same person at the end of the story as she was in the flashback of her as a kid, and that person isn't very layered or interesting.
I'd argue that a character that doesn't change in terms of their convictions or outlook on the world despite all their experiences can be an interesting thing too if done properly. Huatli probably isn't that, but I just wanted to point that out.
Regardless, thanks for explaining. I also agree that Apatzec is the most interesting character from the Sun Empire faction, but I doubt we'll get anything more from him unless they return to Ixalan either directly through a proper return set (which I wouldn't mind, given all the low-hanging plot fruit for both Ixalan continents) or in snapshots through Core/supplementary sets.
I agree, but in order for a character who doesn't change to be interesting they either have to be interesting from the get go, which Huatli wasn't, or their adventure and experiences should reinforce their personality in some way, making them more certain of their path, more intensely devoted to it, have them doubt themselves and consider change before realizing they are at their best the way they are (or tragically falling back into old patterns and missing an opportunity for change), facing a struggle or sacrifice because of being true to themselves (Ned and Robb Stark), or even just understanding who they are better and having this thoughtfully relayed to the audience. I don't feel that Huatli actually does any of these things. She's a Mary Sue, but like all Mary Sues the story fails to realize her shortcomings or only superficially addresses them (it presented her irresponsible planeswalking and forgoing of the honor of being named Warrior poet, which was her primary motivation for finding the golden city, as character development, when it's just her continuing to be overconfident, entitled, and selfish while listening to everyone tell her how great she is. She doesn't realize any sort of character growth, or learn any lesson like her pursuit of the warrior poet title was for personal glory and she should learn humility and do good without worrying about recognition, she abandons it because of how much more awesome she is now that she can planeswalk shes above being just a warrior poet for one nation.)
And actually, someone help me figure out what Huatli actually did in this story. As far as I can see, all she has done is give information to the emperor and make Tishana think that the Sun Empire might be interested in peace (spoiler alert, they aren't). She didn't find Orazca, Jace/Vraska and Kumena did. She didn't stop Angrath, nor did she help him. She didn't stop Kumena, the vamps did. She didn't stop the vamps either. She killed a few vamps at the shipwreck, but I don't remember that actually making a difference. She got a bunch of her own dinos killed. Did she help Jace and Vraska inadvertently during the chase? I thought that was Tishana, who basically didn't rely on Huatli for anything. She yelled at Elenda, but didn't persuade her in any way, nor did he awaken her, she just happened to be there when she emerged from the temple. She didn't even do anything with the elder dinos until she used Zacama as an uber AFTER all the fighting was done and everyone was headed home. The only purpose she served in the entire block was to give us a SunnEmpire PoV character that more interesting characters could talk to, and to find out that the Merfolk were open to peace, and to completely fail to put this information to use. Again, maybe she helped during the chase, I have to reread it.
She did help beat down Vona (who was exhausted from running) long enough to take the Thaumatic Compass from her, if my memory serves.
But yeah, Huatli didn't really do all that much after all is said and done. To be fair though, at least she told Apatzec the truth of how she managed to get to Orazca.
OK, that's something at least.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I agree with the post overall, but this I want clarification for.
The sun Empire is fake Aztec like the Legion of Dusk is fake Spanish. The only two Sun Empire characters that got enough time devoted to them to be anything more than extras were Huatli and the emperor. Her cousin showed up a few times but was clearly a sidekick and wasn't developed at all, and the rest of the sun Empire characters got even less.
Now, with so many factions and characters the story was always going to be limited on how many character could be developed, so each faction would only get a couple. Pirates got all the walkers except Huatli. Merfolk got Kumena, Tishana, and the other legend. Sun Empire got Huatli and the emperor. Vamps got Vona, Mavren, and Elenda. The pirate walkers were all developed well, with Jace and Vraska getting as much character development in two sets as they had since they were introduced, and Angrath being surprisingly layered, with caring for his family and a well thought out and intriguing BR philosophy hiding beneath his caps lock HULK outbursts. Vona and Mavren were caricatures, but Elenda was interesting. Kumena was like Mavren and Vona, but the other merfolk had nuance. The emperor had a lot going on, charming and seemingly level headed but cynical and power hungry, he's a complex character. Huatli, on the other hand, was underdeveloped and one note. She wants to be the warrior poet. She fights for the empire and tells stories. She wants to do what's right, but only sees what's right in front of her. She's horribly naive. None of this really changes over the course of the story, even with her adventure, becoming a walker, and finding out that the Merfolk are pretty swell and her emperor is a warmonger. She was never a xenophobe, so being willing to work with Tishana and wanting peace with the Merfolk isn't development. She doesn't change her views on the vampires, she wants to drive them off and the only reason she tells the emperor not to attack Adanto is because they are leaving. She doesn't learn to be less trusting, doesn't change her view on the world, and is the same person at the end of the story as she was in the flashback of her as a kid, and that person isn't very layered or interesting.
Adding to this I was also dissapointed at how Creative tackled the "shades of gray" conflict they claimed this to be. Every vampire is evil or a fanatic except Elenda. Every merfolk is "good" except Kumena. Every not-aztec (they needed to give them a real name Tonaltepetl=People/Land of the Sun in nahuatl) was "good" except Apatzec. Every pirate was "good".
On the other hand, in card art and flavor text we actually see every tribe being vile to each other with the pirates seemingly over-represented in being terrible people towards everyone. It's almost like the writing team didn't attend the world-building meetings.
I really want to see more of this setting, it's probably the plane with the greatest ammount of unfulfilled potential
I agree with the post overall, but this I want clarification for.
The sun Empire is fake Aztec like the Legion of Dusk is fake Spanish. The only two Sun Empire characters that got enough time devoted to them to be anything more than extras were Huatli and the emperor. Her cousin showed up a few times but was clearly a sidekick and wasn't developed at all, and the rest of the sun Empire characters got even less.
Now, with so many factions and characters the story was always going to be limited on how many character could be developed, so each faction would only get a couple. Pirates got all the walkers except Huatli. Merfolk got Kumena, Tishana, and the other legend. Sun Empire got Huatli and the emperor. Vamps got Vona, Mavren, and Elenda. The pirate walkers were all developed well, with Jace and Vraska getting as much character development in two sets as they had since they were introduced, and Angrath being surprisingly layered, with caring for his family and a well thought out and intriguing BR philosophy hiding beneath his caps lock HULK outbursts. Vona and Mavren were caricatures, but Elenda was interesting. Kumena was like Mavren and Vona, but the other merfolk had nuance. The emperor had a lot going on, charming and seemingly level headed but cynical and power hungry, he's a complex character. Huatli, on the other hand, was underdeveloped and one note. She wants to be the warrior poet. She fights for the empire and tells stories. She wants to do what's right, but only sees what's right in front of her. She's horribly naive. None of this really changes over the course of the story, even with her adventure, becoming a walker, and finding out that the Merfolk are pretty swell and her emperor is a warmonger. She was never a xenophobe, so being willing to work with Tishana and wanting peace with the Merfolk isn't development. She doesn't change her views on the vampires, she wants to drive them off and the only reason she tells the emperor not to attack Adanto is because they are leaving. She doesn't learn to be less trusting, doesn't change her view on the world, and is the same person at the end of the story as she was in the flashback of her as a kid, and that person isn't very layered or interesting.
Adding to this I was also dissapointed at how Creative tackled the "shades of gray" conflict they claimed this to be. Every vampire is evil or a fanatic except Elenda. Every merfolk is "good" except Kumena. Every not-aztec (they needed to give them a real name Tonaltepetl=People/Land of the Sun in nahuatl) was "good" except Apatzec. Every pirate was "good".
On the other hand, in card art and flavor text we actually see every tribe being vile to each other with the pirates seemingly over-represented in being terrible people towards everyone. It's almost like the writing team didn't attend the world-building meetings.
I really want to see more of this setting, it's probably the plane with the greatest ammount of unfulfilled potential
The pirates, at least, have an excuse. We only saw Vraskas crew up close. Angraths we saw get wrecked, but we didn't get to see what sort of people they were, so we have to go on what kind of crew Angrath, who hates Ixilan and wants it to burn, would put together, and that leaves us with some *****ty people.
We see very few people in the story, actually, and I think that's part of the problem. The Jurasztecs suffer from a slightly different problem, as we do see a decent number of them, but they mostly exist to tell Huatli how great she is, which is helpful to the reader because the stories never actually show this. The Merfolk are implied to have factions, with some heedig Kumena, but we only get to know 3 characters. The vamps we only ever see Mavren and Vona before Elenda shows up. We don't know anything about the camp Vraska turns to stone on his ship. Maybe he's a power hungry ********, or maybe he wants to help find the Immortal Sun and bring about peace.
The story arc could have benefited from 4 more stories, just worldbuilding stories, each from the point of view of a member of a different faction, with each pov character being sympathetic and each facing down a different faction acting monstrously. Show a noble vampire trying to maintain a beachead colony and fretting about his subjects well being before some of Angraths crew shows up and burns the place down. Show a river herald fleeing his village as its cleared out by dinosaur riders expanding the bordes of the empire. Show some pirates being tricked by river Heralds and led to their doom in a storm. Show sun Empire soldiers being taken prisoner by the Legion and used for food.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
If details in the story articles were changed last-minute, it would explain the huge discrepancy between what's depicted in the cards and the story articles.
In the end, Kumena was 100% right. About everything.
For all the hype about how finding Orazca and the Immortal Sun would unleash catastrophe, that turned out (like so much else in this story) to be a dud. And not only were the merfolk's fears of awakening Orazca utterly unfounded in the end (at least as far as the story itself indicates, rendering their entire stance in the conflict pointless), but the vampires, pirates, and Sun Empire would all have reached it first if Kumena hadn't. If Tishana and the other merfolk had only listened to Kumena's harping months ago, they could have claimed the city and driven their enemies out before the race for Orazca even became a contest.
The only things Kumena did wrong were 1.) waiting as long as he did, and 2.) losing control of the Sun once he had it. Out of all his people, he was the one who stepped up and took initiative, so they're hardly in any place to castigate him.
Kumena was presented to us as a villain--not in terms of evil, but in terms of misguided motives and short-sightedness. But those flaws were contingent on the assumption that opening Orazca was indeed a very bad, dangerous idea. The card spoilers of the Elder Dinosaurs (and the Primal Calamity in particular) seemed to suggest that yes, Kumena was indeed dangerously misguided and the doomsayers were right all along. But then the story completely dropped that thread and Zacama became a pony. So what we're left with is Kumena standing utterly vindicated.
It's Tishana, not Kumena, who should be disgraced after this; it's Tishana, not Kumena, who owes her people an apology. Now the Heralds ought to ditch the old fool and rally behind the only one of their leaders who actually stepped up to lead when it mattered.
I wouldn't call their stance in the conflict pointless. Catastrophe was averted because the Sun was taken away so that nobody on Ixalan could use it. And now that Orazca has been awakened, the Sun Empire intends to claim it and use what power it still has to conquer and expand.
Had Kumena moved earlier, then he would have held the sun, and it would not have been taken away. This would allow him to wreak havoc as he saw fit against his enemies, causing untold devastation. At least until Azor got off his grumpy butt and put a stop to Kumena's actions. But that would not be the end of it.
As we saw in the story, Azor intended to wield the sun's power himself should the river heralds have failed in keeping it hidden. Using the sun, he would bend the denizens of the plane to his will with no regard for their own wishes and desires. At least until he is assassinated (he's not basically immortal anymore like he was as an oldwalker) unleashing an unmitigated world wide conflict to gain control the sun or take it from those who already have.
In the end, Kumena was 100% right. About everything.
For all the hype about how finding Orazca and the Immortal Sun would unleash catastrophe, that turned out (like so much else in this story) to be a dud. And not only were the merfolk's fears of awakening Orazca utterly unfounded in the end (at least as far as the story itself indicates, rendering their entire stance in the conflict pointless), but the vampires, pirates, and Sun Empire would all have reached it first if Kumena hadn't. If Tishana and the other merfolk had only listened to Kumena's harping months ago, they could have claimed the city and driven their enemies out before the race for Orazca even became a contest.
The only things Kumena did wrong were 1.) waiting as long as he did, and 2.) losing control of the Sun once he had it. Out of all his people, he was the one who stepped up and took initiative, so they're hardly in any place to castigate him.
Kumena was presented to us as a villain--not in terms of evil, but in terms of misguided motives and short-sightedness. But those flaws were contingent on the assumption that opening Orazca was indeed a very bad, dangerous idea. The card spoilers of the Elder Dinosaurs (and the Primal Calamity in particular) seemed to suggest that yes, Kumena was indeed dangerously misguided and the doomsayers were right all along. But then the story completely dropped that thread and Zacama became a pony. So what we're left with is Kumena standing utterly vindicated.
It's Tishana, not Kumena, who should be disgraced after this; it's Tishana, not Kumena, who owes her people an apology. Now the Heralds ought to ditch the old fool and rally behind the only one of their leaders who actually stepped up to lead when it mattered.
What bothers me about Tishana more than anything you said here is that she seemed to believe that Huatli might actually convince the Emperor to stop being a **** by telling him what happened. There was no reason to believe that would pan out or at least that easily. She did hesitate though, so there's that.
If I were in Huatli's shoes, I'd tell Tishana that I'd talk to the Emperor. If he doesn't listen (which is a very real possibility, because pride), know that not all the Sun Empire are expansionist nutjobs, and y'all should prepare just in case.
For all the hype about how finding Orazca and the Immortal Sun would unleash catastrophe
I think that could be because Jace told the main probable source of Catastrophe to go away before Azor could do anything. Imagine if Kumena or Vona got to Azor's room first? he would have Supreme Judgemented half the plane.
Sorry, but Kumena was a ******* moron. He didn't have the suns full power, Azor was right there in control of it. Kumena wanted to use it to conquer the other factions, not just to play defense, and he was too stupid to A) plan what that would actually look like and B) realize that he wasn't in control of the sun, as evidenced by two vamps throwing him out of a window.
He wanted to be an ********, but didn't know how to do it effectively and fell for the decoy (as did the other idiots).
Private Mod Note
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
^ This is one more thing that's so vexing. They actually conveyed the moral nuance quite well in the artbook and supplementary materials. It was THERE; they had a compelling conflict laid out between four factions whose virtues and flaws were well thought out. But again, like practically everything in the story aside from the Jace and Vraska arc, the great ideas laid out in the creative boardroom did not translate to the keyboard of whoever ended up writing the online fiction.
As someone else here already observed, it feels like this world and it's story were planned out by a team that really took the effort and cared, only for the writing to be handed off to people who didn't really care much at all.
All the ingredients for a wild, amazing story were right there! It's almost like a perverse imp troll was sitting on the writers' shoulder:
"Exciting adventure world to explore? Cut the adventure and exploration parts. Just make it a race, people loved that in Dragon's Maze."
"Realistic, morally nuanced villain?(*) Delete his coolest parts, relegate him to a side character, and chuck him out a window in the first scene of RIX."
"Badass guardian golem mechs? Cut 'em."
"Five newly-awakened Elder Dinosaurs, one for each color? Mention them briefly, then move on."
"A SIXTH Elder Dinosaur? A Super three headed Cerberus Rex Primal Calamity? Make it a Taxi."
"Four factions locked in an epic battle for the Immortal Sun? Make it a seven-person playground brawl with no casualties or sacrifices."
"Dangerous and powerful doomsday artifact that's difficult to control? Phase it out before anyone mishandles it and we see what it's truly capable of. Whew, that was close."
"A couple villains are slated to claim the Immortal Sun regardless? Eh, just have them stand on it for a bit without actually using it's power."
"Zacama blasting through the Temple of the Sun? Yawn. No one wants to read about that."
"Intense emotions to capture in prose? Hit caps lock. The readers will get it."
(EDIT: I love Ixalan. I love the world, the art, the factions, and the feathered Dinosaurs. I admire the creativity and inspiration that went into its design and mythology, and it truly is one of my favorite planes. But I abhor, and in fact deeply resent, the amateur and dishonest way the story has been presented to us.)
------------------------
(*)Note: The artbook shows Kumena as originally set up to be the Big Bad, who the other factions had to fight through as he (along with a band of renegade River Heralds!) wielded the might of the Immortal Sun and tried to stop them from reaching the temple. But that would have been cool, so it had to go.
Which is a damned shame.
We've got an unexplored place to come back to (Torrezon) with a new conflict to see unfold (possible Vampire civil war, plus expansionist Sun Empire, plus Pirates opportunistically reclaiming the Free Cities) but no clear reason to come back (since nothing about Ixalan is relevant to the greater plot now that the Immortal Sun is gone).
It'd be nice if we didn't have to visit every single plane because it's important to the overarching plot. Can't we have a plane visit occasionally just for tying up loose ends or exploring that particular plane as a brief distraction?
I agree. It would be nice to have a nice little break. An intermission of sorts. But it's been literal years since we've been to a plane that didn't tie into the main story (not counting supplementary sets like Conspiracy), so I fear that we simply won't be going anywhere in the foreseeable future that isn't.
That would be a less than ideal thing to do, especially since sets can now travel to worlds without having entire blocks set on them.
Also, I've been thinking about the cards in Rivals, and if I was just thinking about the cards and ignoring everything else, the chronological sequence of the story as depicted in the cards would be like this:
Kumena's Awakening
The six epic emerging Elder Dinos
Kumena, Tyrant of Orazca
Flood of Recollection
Profane Procession
Tomb of the Dusk Rose
Elenda, the Dusk Rose
Vona's Hunger
Huatli, Radiant Champion
Azor's Gateway
Azor, the Lawbringer
Shake the Foundations
Sphinx's Decree
Induced Amnesia
Mastermind's Acquisition
Modern: (G/U)Infect (G/U)Tron
Legacy: (U/B)Tezzeret (U/B)(W/U)Miracles(W/U)(B/G)Dredge(R/W)
Commander:(U/R)Mizzix (U/R)(W/U)Sydri(U/B)(W/U)Zur(U/B)
A plane can have storyline if creative, marketing or design want it too and if the plane is popular. The meeting point for the gatewatch didn't have to be Dominaria but they wanted it to be for the 25th anniversary.
Funny enough I just remembered these;
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/145338143918/every-time-you-refer-to-kaladesh-as-steampunk-i
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/147172635363/original-innistrad-was-gothic-horror-shadows-over
and add in the fact what is horror is seen and told differently by region, make me wonder if we might see in the future different culture horror tropes( such as J-Horror) from the different contentions on Innistrad (but Gothic Horror lean Innistrad is known for).
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Her concept wasn't bad, her execution was. I like Gideon. Huatli was paint by numbers.
Also, the following isn't directed toward you Orzhov, I'd rather create a separate post without the quote but I'd get yelled at for that. From my reading of the most recent story, it seemed obvious that the Sun Empire was being set up as the bad guys for the next Ixilan set. Emperor ******** was clearly stating that he was going to claim Orazca and conquer the continent with its power, which is stated to still be massive without the sun.
So we know that Emperor "Only fake Aztec written with any depth" intends to do that. The people of the Sun Empire seem to be generally decent folk, but the Emperor is clearly power hungry and cynical based on all the characterization we've had so far. Lets look at where the other four factions stand:
The River Heralds: Kumena got tossed out of a window like the contents of a chamber pot. He's not dead, but he's sidelined hard. The rest of the heralds are led by Tishana, at least somewhat. They are still not terribly united as a faction, but Tishana is the most powerful and respected leader. Her goal is to share Orazca in peace and harmony with the Sun Empire. She is clever, and likely has fail safes, but she is also honest and that goal is in line with what we know of her character. We also know that the river heralds are the weakest faction overall in terms of numbers. They have fought using trickery and ambushes, and held their own in the past because their goal was to keep a magically hidden city hidden. Its unclear how they would do in a direct war with the Sun Empire, but going by past examples from the story apparently they tend to lose. I expect them to fare the same if it comes to blows, especially if the emperor uses his knowledge of the planned peace to feign partnership before attacking.
The Brazen Coalition: Marginally organized under a strong leader, but their power is at sea. We see them in full retreat in this story (not that they had any representation except Vraska's crew anyway). They are the wildcard. I don't see them suddenly showing up in force and taking the city, but if anyone was going to do that it would be pirates. Probably at night when nobody is looking.
The Legion of Dusk: Elenda is back, the living saint that vamps would follow to their deaths, and her message is "pack up and go home to be monks". She is intent on abandoning Ixalan to return home and set her country right. Mavren is all in. Vona isn't. I expect this to play out similarly among the whole faction, some vampires (and humans) will follow Elenda whole heartedly, reveling in her new revelation as a glorious end to war, while others like Vona will chafe having grown accustomed to conquest and enjoying bloodshed. I expect both sides will follow at first, but the Vona vamps may attempt an assassination or betrayal. I do not expect this to happen before everyone goes home, but I expect that is exactly what will happen during the alternate ending, though if they get attacked while they are packing up I could see Elenda deciding to take Orazca as a defensive maneuver, though that's unlikely. I see the vamps being out of the game by the end of the story, having chosen to remove themselves from the conflict.
So, we're left with the Emperor marching into Orazca, stomping the river heralds, then setting forth to conquer the rest of the continent and planning to build ships and sail out to High and Dry and Torezzon. Its the story that makes the most narrative sense based on what has transpired and how it mirrors the structure of the current block. The bloodthirsty invaders have seen the light and voluntarily retreated home, only to be invaded by the noble warriors who once resisted them, the shoe on the other foot, with the invaders the villains in both cases. Where the villains were monstrous with some redeeming qualities in Ixalan, they will be noble with a dark side in Torezzon. Pirates will still be wild cards, fleeing the Sun Empire while trying to reclaim a footing in their homeland. The heralds will still be mostly absent. Conveniently, Huatli is taking her little planeswalker vacation during the period where she could prevent this. The Emperor, knowing everything that Huatli has told him, and seeing her not show up, can simply lie to everyone. He can say how the heralds plan to take the city and take back Sun Empire conquests, and how the vamps and pirates are regrouping, that they can strike while the iron is hot, and his expansionist nation will eat it up. Huatli will also be completely unable to go warn Tishana, because she's off on her vacation. Thus, we'll get to see a Naya villain faction with a generally sympathetic population face off against grixis, simic, and orzhov "heroes" (ymmv, some are more anti-heroes, expect betrayals). That's a new narrative kick and more satisfying than Kumena doing anything or pirates trying to take over the world, or grimdark vampires the retread.
Scars block was always going to end with New Phyrexia triumphant because that made narrative sense. Tell me, would it make sense for Creative to abandon the best narrative because the river heralds go the most votes and their stuck trying to make Kumena completely overwriting the entire culture's MO, without the Immortal Sun as a driving force? Or figuring out how to make Pirates in charge work when it would destroy everything that makes them like able and Orazca is inland? Maybe seeing Vona stab Elenda in the back, kill Mavren, and take the reins of the Legion would work, but we have two options that would be dumb, please excuse me for disbelieving that would be left to chance, especially since it wasn't the last time we did this.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Out of curiosity, why do you say that?
I agree with the post overall, but this I want clarification for.
Because the culture of the empire wasn't given any depth whatsoever?
The sun Empire is fake Aztec like the Legion of Dusk is fake Spanish. The only two Sun Empire characters that got enough time devoted to them to be anything more than extras were Huatli and the emperor. Her cousin showed up a few times but was clearly a sidekick and wasn't developed at all, and the rest of the sun Empire characters got even less.
Now, with so many factions and characters the story was always going to be limited on how many character could be developed, so each faction would only get a couple. Pirates got all the walkers except Huatli. Merfolk got Kumena, Tishana, and the other legend. Sun Empire got Huatli and the emperor. Vamps got Vona, Mavren, and Elenda. The pirate walkers were all developed well, with Jace and Vraska getting as much character development in two sets as they had since they were introduced, and Angrath being surprisingly layered, with caring for his family and a well thought out and intriguing BR philosophy hiding beneath his caps lock HULK outbursts. Vona and Mavren were caricatures, but Elenda was interesting. Kumena was like Mavren and Vona, but the other merfolk had nuance. The emperor had a lot going on, charming and seemingly level headed but cynical and power hungry, he's a complex character. Huatli, on the other hand, was underdeveloped and one note. She wants to be the warrior poet. She fights for the empire and tells stories. She wants to do what's right, but only sees what's right in front of her. She's horribly naive. None of this really changes over the course of the story, even with her adventure, becoming a walker, and finding out that the Merfolk are pretty swell and her emperor is a warmonger. She was never a xenophobe, so being willing to work with Tishana and wanting peace with the Merfolk isn't development. She doesn't change her views on the vampires, she wants to drive them off and the only reason she tells the emperor not to attack Adanto is because they are leaving. She doesn't learn to be less trusting, doesn't change her view on the world, and is the same person at the end of the story as she was in the flashback of her as a kid, and that person isn't very layered or interesting.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I'd argue that a character that doesn't change in terms of their convictions or outlook on the world despite all their experiences can be an interesting thing too if done properly. Huatli probably isn't that, but I just wanted to point that out.
Regardless, thanks for explaining. I also agree that Apatzec is the most interesting character from the Sun Empire faction, but I doubt we'll get anything more from him unless they return to Ixalan either directly through a proper return set (which I wouldn't mind, given all the low-hanging plot fruit for both Ixalan continents) or in snapshots through Core/supplementary sets.
I agree, but in order for a character who doesn't change to be interesting they either have to be interesting from the get go, which Huatli wasn't, or their adventure and experiences should reinforce their personality in some way, making them more certain of their path, more intensely devoted to it, have them doubt themselves and consider change before realizing they are at their best the way they are (or tragically falling back into old patterns and missing an opportunity for change), facing a struggle or sacrifice because of being true to themselves (Ned and Robb Stark), or even just understanding who they are better and having this thoughtfully relayed to the audience. I don't feel that Huatli actually does any of these things. She's a Mary Sue, but like all Mary Sues the story fails to realize her shortcomings or only superficially addresses them (it presented her irresponsible planeswalking and forgoing of the honor of being named Warrior poet, which was her primary motivation for finding the golden city, as character development, when it's just her continuing to be overconfident, entitled, and selfish while listening to everyone tell her how great she is. She doesn't realize any sort of character growth, or learn any lesson like her pursuit of the warrior poet title was for personal glory and she should learn humility and do good without worrying about recognition, she abandons it because of how much more awesome she is now that she can planeswalk shes above being just a warrior poet for one nation.)
And actually, someone help me figure out what Huatli actually did in this story. As far as I can see, all she has done is give information to the emperor and make Tishana think that the Sun Empire might be interested in peace (spoiler alert, they aren't). She didn't find Orazca, Jace/Vraska and Kumena did. She didn't stop Angrath, nor did she help him. She didn't stop Kumena, the vamps did. She didn't stop the vamps either. She killed a few vamps at the shipwreck, but I don't remember that actually making a difference. She got a bunch of her own dinos killed. Did she help Jace and Vraska inadvertently during the chase? I thought that was Tishana, who basically didn't rely on Huatli for anything. She yelled at Elenda, but didn't persuade her in any way, nor did he awaken her, she just happened to be there when she emerged from the temple. She didn't even do anything with the elder dinos until she used Zacama as an uber AFTER all the fighting was done and everyone was headed home. The only purpose she served in the entire block was to give us a SunnEmpire PoV character that more interesting characters could talk to, and to find out that the Merfolk were open to peace, and to completely fail to put this information to use. Again, maybe she helped during the chase, I have to reread it.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
She did help beat down Vona (who was exhausted from running) long enough to take the Thaumatic Compass from her, if my memory serves.
But yeah, Huatli didn't really do all that much after all is said and done. To be fair though, at least she told Apatzec the truth of how she managed to get to Orazca.
OK, that's something at least.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
On the other hand, in card art and flavor text we actually see every tribe being vile to each other with the pirates seemingly over-represented in being terrible people towards everyone. It's almost like the writing team didn't attend the world-building meetings.
I really want to see more of this setting, it's probably the plane with the greatest ammount of unfulfilled potential
The pirates, at least, have an excuse. We only saw Vraskas crew up close. Angraths we saw get wrecked, but we didn't get to see what sort of people they were, so we have to go on what kind of crew Angrath, who hates Ixilan and wants it to burn, would put together, and that leaves us with some *****ty people.
We see very few people in the story, actually, and I think that's part of the problem. The Jurasztecs suffer from a slightly different problem, as we do see a decent number of them, but they mostly exist to tell Huatli how great she is, which is helpful to the reader because the stories never actually show this. The Merfolk are implied to have factions, with some heedig Kumena, but we only get to know 3 characters. The vamps we only ever see Mavren and Vona before Elenda shows up. We don't know anything about the camp Vraska turns to stone on his ship. Maybe he's a power hungry ********, or maybe he wants to help find the Immortal Sun and bring about peace.
The story arc could have benefited from 4 more stories, just worldbuilding stories, each from the point of view of a member of a different faction, with each pov character being sympathetic and each facing down a different faction acting monstrously. Show a noble vampire trying to maintain a beachead colony and fretting about his subjects well being before some of Angraths crew shows up and burns the place down. Show a river herald fleeing his village as its cleared out by dinosaur riders expanding the bordes of the empire. Show some pirates being tricked by river Heralds and led to their doom in a storm. Show sun Empire soldiers being taken prisoner by the Legion and used for food.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
For all the hype about how finding Orazca and the Immortal Sun would unleash catastrophe, that turned out (like so much else in this story) to be a dud. And not only were the merfolk's fears of awakening Orazca utterly unfounded in the end (at least as far as the story itself indicates, rendering their entire stance in the conflict pointless), but the vampires, pirates, and Sun Empire would all have reached it first if Kumena hadn't. If Tishana and the other merfolk had only listened to Kumena's harping months ago, they could have claimed the city and driven their enemies out before the race for Orazca even became a contest.
The only things Kumena did wrong were 1.) waiting as long as he did, and 2.) losing control of the Sun once he had it. Out of all his people, he was the one who stepped up and took initiative, so they're hardly in any place to castigate him.
Kumena was presented to us as a villain--not in terms of evil, but in terms of misguided motives and short-sightedness. But those flaws were contingent on the assumption that opening Orazca was indeed a very bad, dangerous idea. The card spoilers of the Elder Dinosaurs (and the Primal Calamity in particular) seemed to suggest that yes, Kumena was indeed dangerously misguided and the doomsayers were right all along. But then the story completely dropped that thread and Zacama became a pony. So what we're left with is Kumena standing utterly vindicated.
It's Tishana, not Kumena, who should be disgraced after this; it's Tishana, not Kumena, who owes her people an apology. Now the Heralds ought to ditch the old fool and rally behind the only one of their leaders who actually stepped up to lead when it mattered.
Had Kumena moved earlier, then he would have held the sun, and it would not have been taken away. This would allow him to wreak havoc as he saw fit against his enemies, causing untold devastation. At least until Azor got off his grumpy butt and put a stop to Kumena's actions. But that would not be the end of it.
As we saw in the story, Azor intended to wield the sun's power himself should the river heralds have failed in keeping it hidden. Using the sun, he would bend the denizens of the plane to his will with no regard for their own wishes and desires. At least until he is assassinated (he's not basically immortal anymore like he was as an oldwalker) unleashing an unmitigated world wide conflict to gain control the sun or take it from those who already have.
What bothers me about Tishana more than anything you said here is that she seemed to believe that Huatli might actually convince the Emperor to stop being a **** by telling him what happened. There was no reason to believe that would pan out or at least that easily. She did hesitate though, so there's that.
If I were in Huatli's shoes, I'd tell Tishana that I'd talk to the Emperor. If he doesn't listen (which is a very real possibility, because pride), know that not all the Sun Empire are expansionist nutjobs, and y'all should prepare just in case.
I think that could be because Jace told the main probable source of Catastrophe to go away before Azor could do anything. Imagine if Kumena or Vona got to Azor's room first? he would have Supreme Judgemented half the plane.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
He wanted to be an ********, but didn't know how to do it effectively and fell for the decoy (as did the other idiots).
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
That is because they completely punted on the "GREY VS GREY!" morality they were trying for.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
As someone else here already observed, it feels like this world and it's story were planned out by a team that really took the effort and cared, only for the writing to be handed off to people who didn't really care much at all.
All the ingredients for a wild, amazing story were right there! It's almost like a perverse imp troll was sitting on the writers' shoulder:
"Exciting adventure world to explore? Cut the adventure and exploration parts. Just make it a race, people loved that in Dragon's Maze."
"Realistic, morally nuanced villain?(*) Delete his coolest parts, relegate him to a side character, and chuck him out a window in the first scene of RIX."
"Badass guardian golem mechs? Cut 'em."
"Five newly-awakened Elder Dinosaurs, one for each color? Mention them briefly, then move on."
"A SIXTH Elder Dinosaur? A Super three headed Cerberus Rex Primal Calamity? Make it a Taxi."
"Four factions locked in an epic battle for the Immortal Sun? Make it a seven-person playground brawl with no casualties or sacrifices."
"Dangerous and powerful doomsday artifact that's difficult to control? Phase it out before anyone mishandles it and we see what it's truly capable of. Whew, that was close."
"A couple villains are slated to claim the Immortal Sun regardless? Eh, just have them stand on it for a bit without actually using it's power."
"Zacama blasting through the Temple of the Sun? Yawn. No one wants to read about that."
"Intense emotions to capture in prose? Hit caps lock. The readers will get it."
(EDIT: I love Ixalan. I love the world, the art, the factions, and the feathered Dinosaurs. I admire the creativity and inspiration that went into its design and mythology, and it truly is one of my favorite planes. But I abhor, and in fact deeply resent, the amateur and dishonest way the story has been presented to us.)
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(*)Note: The artbook shows Kumena as originally set up to be the Big Bad, who the other factions had to fight through as he (along with a band of renegade River Heralds!) wielded the might of the Immortal Sun and tried to stop them from reaching the temple. But that would have been cool, so it had to go.