Azor was done in by HIS OWN MAGIC. Jace used the Living Guildpact's magic to punish Azor. He did it to himself, and it's great.
Exactly. He just got got by a failsafe he designed, which is poetic.
Also, Vraska wasn't wrong. Ixalan was thrown into conflict and chaos the past few centuries because of an artifact Azor just dumped on them without any thought to the consequences. He also implemented a complex system on Ravnica and didn't stick around to ensure that it was maintained. Also consider that if Azor and Ugin's plan had succeeded, NICOL BOLAS would have been trapped on Ixalan. Who knows what would have happened to the plane in that scenario, and given Bolas's tenacity, he might have escaped regardless.
At least we know now why Bolas went to Tarkir in the first place. It's because Ugin lured him there, but Bolas was smart enough to strike a deal with one of the locals (something Ugin probably never accounted for, given his mindset) to turn the tide on Ugin and extract some useful info (including about the Sun) in the process.
If you ask me why I like Bolas, it's because he's entertaining for me to follow as a character/plot element. He can brawl like a traditional dragon, but he can also plan complex, centuries-old plots, and leverage assets he just finds hanging around on the planes he's interested in, as well as use telepathy, necromancy and other such magics with great proficiency. Also unlike some oldwalkers, Bolas knows he's a ****, but he just doesn't care.
Can..we just step back from everything else and just recognize HOW TERRIBLE Azor and Azor's buddies plan was?
You are going to take Nicol Bolas and contain him on one plane? The Literal Best case scenario for this plan is for Nicol Bolas to scour the entire plane down to nothing to find what is keeping him there and then spend as long as it takes to figure out how it works and how to break it.
Can..we just step back from everything else and just recognize HOW TERRIBLE Azor and Azor's buddies plan was?
You are going to take Nicol Bolas and contain him on one plane? The Literal Best case scenario for this plan is for Nicol Bolas to scour the entire plane down to nothing to find what is keeping him there and then spend as long as it takes to figure out how it works and how to break it.
Depends on the plane. I mean, there's several planes out there that are almost completely desolate, and would deprive Bolas of resources. Ixalan is not one of those planes, so, yes, this is a terrible idea in execution, if not in concept.
Then again, terrible in execution, not concept seems to be very much an Azor thing.
Can..we just step back from everything else and just recognize HOW TERRIBLE Azor and Azor's buddies plan was?
You are going to take Nicol Bolas and contain him on one plane? The Literal Best case scenario for this plan is for Nicol Bolas to scour the entire plane down to nothing to find what is keeping him there and then spend as long as it takes to figure out how it works and how to break it.
What else do you do about someone like Bolas? They obviously didn't think they could kill him, and they didn't care about the inhabitants of the planes they meddle in.
Can..we just step back from everything else and just recognize HOW TERRIBLE Azor and Azor's buddies plan was?
You are going to take Nicol Bolas and contain him on one plane? The Literal Best case scenario for this plan is for Nicol Bolas to scour the entire plane down to nothing to find what is keeping him there and then spend as long as it takes to figure out how it works and how to break it.
Depends on the plane. I mean, there's several planes out there that are almost completely desolate, and would deprive Bolas of resources. Ixalan is not one of those planes, so, yes, this is a terrible idea in execution, if not in concept.
Then again, terrible in execution, not concept seems to be very much an Azor thing.
Well in a desolate plane case you just have Nicol Scouring a dead world to find what has him stuck instead of a living one, Did Azor think that Nicol Was just going to sit on his rump and not try to find a way to shut off the Sun?
Can..we just step back from everything else and just recognize HOW TERRIBLE Azor and Azor's buddies plan was?
You are going to take Nicol Bolas and contain him on one plane? The Literal Best case scenario for this plan is for Nicol Bolas to scour the entire plane down to nothing to find what is keeping him there and then spend as long as it takes to figure out how it works and how to break it.
That's a little naive, considering we know next to nothing on how the Sun works. For all we know, there is legitimately no way to inactivate it from within the plane it's on. We haven't seen how Bolas takes the Sun, so we can't speculate as to what he might have had to do if he were trapped on Ixalan. I know we're all disillusioned by Azor, but Ugin is presumably a smart fellow. If he thought trapping Bolas on Ixalan had a chance of working, there's probably a reason.
Can..we just step back from everything else and just recognize HOW TERRIBLE Azor and Azor's buddies plan was?
You are going to take Nicol Bolas and contain him on one plane? The Literal Best case scenario for this plan is for Nicol Bolas to scour the entire plane down to nothing to find what is keeping him there and then spend as long as it takes to figure out how it works and how to break it.
That's a little naive, considering we know next to nothing on how the Sun works. For all we know, there is legitimately no way to inactivate it from within the plane it's on. We haven't seen how Bolas takes the Sun, so we can't speculate as to what he might have had to do if he were trapped on Ixalan. I know we're all disillusioned by Azor, but Ugin is presumably a smart fellow. If he thought trapping Bolas on Ixalan had a chance of working, there's probably a reason.
If Tarkir and Zendikar were any indication, just because Ugin thought something would work doesn't mean it would.
His plan to capture Bolas on Tarkir to prep him for Azor backfired spectacularly, and his plan to trap the Eldrazi on Zendikar to study them also hit a snag on multiple occasions. To be fair though, if he was still alive/conscious around the two times the lock on the Eldrazi became loosened, he might have intervened.
Yes because assuming the God-like Immortal Dragon given pretty much infinite time to figure out the thing will at some point find a way to break something is Naive? I think it is a reasonable assumption that the being old enough to have learned how to sail because he was bored will figure out how an artifact works given that he has nothing else to do.
Yes because assuming the God-like Immortal Dragon given pretty much infinite time to figure out the thing will at some point find a way to break something is Naive? I think it is a reasonable assumption that the being old enough to have learned how to sail because he was bored will figure out how an artifact works given that he has nothing else to do.
Nothing else except maybe strike terror in the hearts of the natives before he murders or subjugates the lot of them.
I’m not a fan of Azorius or bureaucracy in general, but I found Azor to be sympathetic. I have a hard time believing that Ravnica and Ixalan would have world peace if not for him. How do we know they wouldn’t be worse off?
On top of that, he’s waited centuries in a room in order to trap Nicol Bolas. At the very least he could be given a chance to atone by helping Jace, and Jace could give him that order.
I thought the story was good, but did the writers really have to use the word Hierophant 9 times in the story? We get it, you have an obscure vocabulary, but you don’t have to keep using an obscure word when you could say Marven Fein or the vampire, especially when you want younger readers to read the story also.
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I’m not a fan of Azorius or bureaucracy in general, but I found Azor to be sympathetic. I have a hard time believing that Ravnica and Ixalan would have world peace if not for him. How do we know they wouldn’t be worse off?
Ravnica probably, but Ixalan is a different story.
Think of it this way: If Azor didn't bring the Immortal Sun to Ixalan, the wars on Torrezon waged over it wouldn't have happened. In turn, Elenda wouldn't have been motivated to go after it and perform the ritual to make herself a vampire so that she could keep going after it. Without that, the Legion of Dusk might not have ever existed in its current form. Without the Legion in its current form, the refugees that ultimately formed the Brazen Coalition might never have become refugees in the first place. Without either the Legion or the pirates to bother them, Ixalan (the continent) might have been left alone by the Torrezon natives.
Speaking of the Ixalan continent, the Sun Empire wouldn't have abused the Sun and caused the devastation that they did. Similarly, the River Heralds wouldn't be burdened with guarding it. The entire fight over Orazca wouldn't have happened because of this.
While something else (the Bat God, maybe?) might have sowed chaos in Ixalan eventually, it was the Immortal Sun (and by extension, Azor) that triggered this particular series of events.
Rant aside about the execution of the story, how evil has bolas been for both Ugin and azor to conclude he needed to be Imprissoned. I get locking up the eldrazi because they were eating planets full of sentient life, but bolas was just ruling over planes and collecting power?
It's something I hope they have a good reason for besides lawl evil. I get bolas being wary of Ugin, because his existence is a challenge in and of itself. Regardless of ugins intentions, he can't harm bolas if he's dead.
That mind set doesn't translate over to Ugin for how they've portrayed him imo, who they kind of sold as an enlightened and good aligned (if very aloof and seemingly uncaring at times) dragon. What does Ugin gain by removing bolas from the picture?
Leads me to believe that bolas threw the first punch. Ugin just started retaliating, and bolas played cat and mouse until he finally just killed him. Bolas could have been usurping and perverting planes that Ugin and azor were settling? Stealing artifacts of power they created and left on each plane?
Even in Amonkhet bolas knew what he was doing was straight evil, and wasteful. He said he didn't even like doing things that way unless absolutely nessecary. What kind of flamboyant evil was he tossing around to earn the ire of Ugin and azor both.
I’m not a fan of Azorius or bureaucracy in general, but I found Azor to be sympathetic. I have a hard time believing that Ravnica and Ixalan would have world peace if not for him. How do we know they wouldn’t be worse off?
You're taking this to an extreme. The point isn't that places would have been great if not for Azor, it's that Azor caused as many problems as he solved. It's a common theme for 'good guy' oldwalkers.
I’m not a fan of Azorius or bureaucracy in general, but I found Azor to be sympathetic. I have a hard time believing that Ravnica and Ixalan would have world peace if not for him. How do we know they wouldn’t be worse off?
You're taking this to an extreme. The point isn't that places would have been great if not for Azor, it's that Azor caused as many problems as he solved. It's a common theme for 'good guy' oldwalkers.
It's not even so much that he caused problems in the process of trying to solve other problems, as nobody's perfect.
It's also that he's unable to admit that he caused any problems. I actually felt sorry for him in this story not just because he was schooled by his own magic, but also because he somehow deluded himself in believing his systems were flawless when they in fact were not. He also loves to shift blame, as demonstrated with his wording regarding Ugin when he talks about their plan, and the repeated blaming of the natives on why the systems he established had flaws or loopholes those natives could exploit.
It's too bad Jace never thought to (or had the knowledge necessary to) tell Azor that Szadek essentially made the original Guildpact abolish itself. I suppose Azor would have thought the Living Guildpact to be of a piece with the original Guildpact, though.
As for Ugin being enlightened good...that kind of falls flat when you consider that he showed little to no remorse for allowing the Eldrazi to consume several planes before deciding to seal them. He isn't evil...but he isn't good. In fact, he probably considers himself to necessarily be above the very concepts of good and evil. However, to tweak a phrase, he can't see the trees for the forest. In fact, I keep thinking of the deadlock he helped maintain on Tarkir (remember that he's the one who taught the khanates manifestation magic); that it's varying degrees of "desperate" for both dragons and non-dragons isn't as important to him as the "balance" he's maintaining. At a guess, I'd say he's given up on saving individuals, and only cares about the gestalt.
It also says something that he apparently became friends with someone as obsessed with conjuring strict order on multiple planes as Azor. That's why I'm thinking Ugin's own goal is something along the lines of setting up whatever oldwalkers remain (and aren't as willfully vile as Bolas) as gods of the Multiverse, expressly to keep it from tearing itself apart. Which brings me to another suspicion of mine regarding Ugin's goals--I think he wants to preserve the Multiverse in the state he knew it as forever. Hence my interest in finding out his reaction to the change in the Spark...
Azor smells like cats. That is reason enough for me to approve of this story.
I imagine him using a giant sandbox, though who's his poop scooper?
At first I was surprised that Azor was defenseless against Jace, then I realize that Jace was the Living Guildpact, and Azor by his own law belongs to the Azorius, and Living Guildpact has some authority over him, like how each nation has its own law to overthrow its leader when needed. Azor probably didn't expect the Living Guildpact would too be a telepath PW who just happened to be on Ixalan.
Ugin probably hinted Jace (and other walkers who knows his survival) to check on Azor to see what happened. It's wise, though he didn't expect Jace's past with Alhammarret and Ravnica might've interfered, result in Azor's exile. Honest, I think it's quite foolish of Jace to punish Azor at this point in time, because they could've worked together against Bolas, utilizing the Sun for a greater purpose. Hell, Jace could've ordered Azor to stop meddling with people's lives and help fight Bolas, instead he sent Azor to an island to live off his life. For a powerful mindmage, he sux at strategies, though we all knew that on Amonkhet, aye?
Locked in a room for over a thousand year, imagine that happened to anyone else. Urza and Bolas were free and chose to be ********s, Azor I could sympathize, at least on this facet.
I think Bolas wants the Sun to amplify his power first, and the ability to imprison was the gravy.
I mean, it was made using a Planeswalker's Spark, and we know from Scars block that those are transferable. It could be a "Kill Several Birds with One Stone" kind of thing in that it removes something that could cause him problems down the line, and if he can pull that spark into himself, he can get a vast increase in power.
Maybe his overall goal is to become the only Planeswalker.
I agree, Bolas clearly wants more power in every way, though I doubt he wants to be the only walker, since having minions is useful, and it's fun to manipulate ambitious people.
All the history and reference to Azor for him to get tossed away like garbage was upsetting. You have a character that has had some of the most build up (rav 1 and 2 stories, impact on Jace, flashy mythic spells etc., finally ties into other walkers) just get dismissed? Talk about missing the mark. Azor was a huge let down. I wanted a good guy that was just flat out not crazy and kinda old. I got a cat smelling crazy old walker who indirectly imprissoned himself because of rules he made.
Jace, again, feels like he's slipping into old Jace lawl mind magic/counter you I'm immune again. What should have imposed a significant physical threat was rendered totally useless because mind magic and rules. While I don't hate him using azors magic against him, it feels waaaay lazy for writing. The good guys finally had a chance to recruit someone else, or at least establish ties like with Ugin, and it is just let go.
That is my beef with the story as well. I get that Jace probably used his Guildpact power again Azor, rendered him defenseless under his own ruling, but couldn't he at least utilizes Azor's power instead of letting him rot on an island, or simply tell him NOT to meddle again? It's cruel to make another individual live under telepathic control, Jace of all people should know THAT!
Assuming azor was working with ugin, how would Bolas even find out about the plan to kill ugin? Where they warring before hand? Does Ugin even know about Amonkhet? Wtf does it matter and why do they have to fight. Why trap bolas...why trap the eldrazi...why can't Ugin finish his foes off properly. He's like the bad guy in a video game that has poorly thought out evil plots.
He mentioned in the story that he trapped Eldrazi because he wants to study them. Eldrazi were the extension of a greater cosmic being even HE could not comprehend and he fears the result of destroying the limbs of that monster, the whole thing might just "show up".
I'm apparently alone here in thinking that Azor was kind of bullied by Jace and Vraska. The thing with UW-types is that they don't ever believe that they are being malevolent in what they are doing, so just using straight up force against them as punishment accomplishes little except making those who feel wronged feel better.
Nicol Bolas, on the other hand, deserves far worse treatment than Azor, yet he gets so many players hard that Wizards is unlikely to give him the comeuppance he truly deserves. I'm talking the ol' Alhammarret mind-reversion-to-infant treatment, dying emaciated and covered in his own feces, except with Bolas' full awareness that of what's going on and that this is how he will die. I would pay money to see that happen.
Anyhow, if Jace allows Bolas to get the Eternal Sun (which we know happens), he's as short-sighted as Ugin claimed he was.
You are not alone, I think Jace misused his power here, almost as if the writers want to showcase Jace's power, his bond with Vraska, and somehow punish a semi-antagonist to satisfy readers' need for a bad guy.
Can..we just step back from everything else and just recognize HOW TERRIBLE Azor and Azor's buddies plan was?
You are going to take Nicol Bolas and contain him on one plane? The Literal Best case scenario for this plan is for Nicol Bolas to scour the entire plane down to nothing to find what is keeping him there and then spend as long as it takes to figure out how it works and how to break it.
I have a feeling Azor and his buddy (Ugin?) intended to be the warden, using the Sun to amplify at least Ugin's power to keep Bolas in check, or to kill him while he's trapped. Trapping Bolas only means he cannot escape, until the two killed him.
I’m not a fan of Azorius or bureaucracy in general, but I found Azor to be sympathetic. I have a hard time believing that Ravnica and Ixalan would have world peace if not for him. How do we know they wouldn’t be worse off?
I want to stand up for Azor here as well.
Think: When an ADULT committed a crime, do we blame the parents or do we hold him/herself responsible?
Azor was arrogant to assume authority on different planes, but those planes indeed benefit from government. The only mistake Azor made was that he refuse to acknowledge that people and society change, and changing of society means changing of laws, just like the second amendment on guns was intended for citizen to overthrow a corrupted government, not to show off masculinity. Yes, Azor should admit his mistakes in leaving and blaming, but Jace and Vraska were also wrong in condemning him for the negative development of a society, because it DID work in the beginning, it's adolescent and naive to hold a person responsible for things happened millenniums after a golden age. Adults hold responsibility for their actions, shouldn't Jace and Vraska hold citizens of Ravnica for theirs?
IIRC, Ravnica was torn up by war and conflict before Azor established the guild system, so I think we can say that that plane did benefit quite a bit from his "gift", even though the peace is delicate.
We never saw what Ixalan was like before the whole Immortal Sun saga went down, but I doubt it was much worse than what it is now.
IIRC, Ravnica was torn up by war and conflict before Azor established the guild system, so I think we can say that that plane did benefit quite a bit from his "gift", even though the peace is delicate.
We never saw what Ixalan was like before the whole Immortal Sun saga went down, but I doubt it was much worse than what it is now.
A chilling thought is that Azor might find Old Phyrexia to be PUURFECT.
Azor's only mistake is that he failed to understand that most people aren't sphinxes, they change and adapt for conveniences, even a perfect system is not immune to people's meddling. Take U.S. for example, do we blame George Washington for establishing the nation that led to countless war in Middle East today? Do we blame the person who invented gun powder in China that it would later be used to enslave South Americans?
Azor shouldn't blame others, shouldn't impose his laws, but he is far from being the sole responsibility of Ravnica's downfall.
I’m not a fan of Azorius or bureaucracy in general, but I found Azor to be sympathetic. I have a hard time believing that Ravnica and Ixalan would have world peace if not for him. How do we know they wouldn’t be worse off?
You're taking this to an extreme. The point isn't that places would have been great if not for Azor, it's that Azor caused as many problems as he solved. It's a common theme for 'good guy' oldwalkers.
Okay? So he’s not perfect. Would Innistrad have been better off without Sorin? Should he be forced to spend the rest of eternity on a useless island? Wouldn’t a more proper punishment have been to make Azor obey Vraska as his captain? Or to be Jace’s sidekick? Isn’t rehabilitation a fundamental aspect of lawful punishment?
Under Jace’s magic, Azor was whimpering like a dog who did something wrong and is submitting. When that happens, you train the dog to do the right thing; you don’t abandon the dog. Azor recognized Jace as his master and would have made a great pet for Jace.
Today’s article left me a little bitter as there’s a lot to Azor that I can agree with.
TBH I’m a little tired of the anti-interventionist themes in MTG these days. Just because something is natural, cultural or endemic to a plane doesn’t mean it is good, healthy, right or desirable. It doesn’t mean that they are negative or need be replaced either but I think Azor was fine to bring civilization to other planes.
I’m a little tired of the themes of authority = tyranny,
Organized religion = corruption, and other such themes. I understand Social Justice as an important philosophy to share in stories but it shouldn’t be the only animating philosophy among our heroes.
I dunno, I guess I wish there was more nuance to MTG stories these days.
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I believe Jace did the right thing in punishing Azor. Yes, he never had bad intentions but if he where to regain his spark he was going to be going in his crusade of bringing Law to every plane. Some did benefit others not like Ixalan. And besides, if his help is needed Jace can planeswalk to Ixalan and order him to help him (after all is the Living Guildpact).
I guess that Ugin intentions for the Multiverse is the Balance, good and evil in perfect harmony, the law is order and therefore balance. I don’t believe that Ugin forgot Azor, but probably doesn’t have a way to bring back his spark (Venser and Karn transfer I am considering it an exception rather than the rule). Perhaps pre-mending he was capable of this, now he can’t .
Nicol Bolas endgame may be to try to cause a reverse Mending to become the ruler of the Multiverse. Or, he is trying to find a way to fight off the greatest threat to his Multiverse, Phyrexia. He knows this is a threat he can’t overlook, probably the Immortal Sun is a way to keep them sealed so they stop invading other planes (I am guessing the Phyrexians will use the method of overlaying a plane over other as a means to move).
So everyone is mad at Jace for not keeping up guildpact duty but think Azor is fine even thought what he did was basically the same except done to countless planes? I think Azor is in the wrong in the fact that he should have taken a better responsibility for the worlds he up put order too. If he was on Ravnica he would have made sure his "system" was always up and running and I think this show more of Jaces growth since (I hope) he realizes he need to do better for Ravnica.
I'm convinced that Azor is Crucius. Came to Esper, saw the disorder, gave them etheruim without thinking that to get more they would need a planeswawlker (or he was short sighted to think they won't go nuts with it and become living machines) and peaced out.
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Yes, Azor was on the wrong for leaving every plane where he created Law and Order (Dun dun). Joke aside, his view of the law as the only way to act blind him to see that mortals would always find a way to exploit it and bring chaos.
On Crucius I believe they know each other.... but it makes me wonder if Azor brought Sangrite to Esper why not bring order to Jund, Naya and Grixis? Perhaps he visited Alara before the rupture
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Exactly. He just got got by a failsafe he designed, which is poetic.
Also, Vraska wasn't wrong. Ixalan was thrown into conflict and chaos the past few centuries because of an artifact Azor just dumped on them without any thought to the consequences. He also implemented a complex system on Ravnica and didn't stick around to ensure that it was maintained. Also consider that if Azor and Ugin's plan had succeeded, NICOL BOLAS would have been trapped on Ixalan. Who knows what would have happened to the plane in that scenario, and given Bolas's tenacity, he might have escaped regardless.
At least we know now why Bolas went to Tarkir in the first place. It's because Ugin lured him there, but Bolas was smart enough to strike a deal with one of the locals (something Ugin probably never accounted for, given his mindset) to turn the tide on Ugin and extract some useful info (including about the Sun) in the process.
If you ask me why I like Bolas, it's because he's entertaining for me to follow as a character/plot element. He can brawl like a traditional dragon, but he can also plan complex, centuries-old plots, and leverage assets he just finds hanging around on the planes he's interested in, as well as use telepathy, necromancy and other such magics with great proficiency. Also unlike some oldwalkers, Bolas knows he's a ****, but he just doesn't care.
You are going to take Nicol Bolas and contain him on one plane? The Literal Best case scenario for this plan is for Nicol Bolas to scour the entire plane down to nothing to find what is keeping him there and then spend as long as it takes to figure out how it works and how to break it.
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Depends on the plane. I mean, there's several planes out there that are almost completely desolate, and would deprive Bolas of resources. Ixalan is not one of those planes, so, yes, this is a terrible idea in execution, if not in concept.
Then again, terrible in execution, not concept seems to be very much an Azor thing.
And that it's only the Mending that saves him, as Venser, Shaper Savant's rift-connect spark is what allows him to return?
What else do you do about someone like Bolas? They obviously didn't think they could kill him, and they didn't care about the inhabitants of the planes they meddle in.
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Well in a desolate plane case you just have Nicol Scouring a dead world to find what has him stuck instead of a living one, Did Azor think that Nicol Was just going to sit on his rump and not try to find a way to shut off the Sun?
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That's a little naive, considering we know next to nothing on how the Sun works. For all we know, there is legitimately no way to inactivate it from within the plane it's on. We haven't seen how Bolas takes the Sun, so we can't speculate as to what he might have had to do if he were trapped on Ixalan. I know we're all disillusioned by Azor, but Ugin is presumably a smart fellow. If he thought trapping Bolas on Ixalan had a chance of working, there's probably a reason.
If Tarkir and Zendikar were any indication, just because Ugin thought something would work doesn't mean it would.
His plan to capture Bolas on Tarkir to prep him for Azor backfired spectacularly, and his plan to trap the Eldrazi on Zendikar to study them also hit a snag on multiple occasions. To be fair though, if he was still alive/conscious around the two times the lock on the Eldrazi became loosened, he might have intervened.
Yes because assuming the God-like Immortal Dragon given pretty much infinite time to figure out the thing will at some point find a way to break something is Naive? I think it is a reasonable assumption that the being old enough to have learned how to sail because he was bored will figure out how an artifact works given that he has nothing else to do.
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Nothing else except maybe strike terror in the hearts of the natives before he murders or subjugates the lot of them.
On top of that, he’s waited centuries in a room in order to trap Nicol Bolas. At the very least he could be given a chance to atone by helping Jace, and Jace could give him that order.
I thought the story was good, but did the writers really have to use the word Hierophant 9 times in the story? We get it, you have an obscure vocabulary, but you don’t have to keep using an obscure word when you could say Marven Fein or the vampire, especially when you want younger readers to read the story also.
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Ravnica probably, but Ixalan is a different story.
Think of it this way: If Azor didn't bring the Immortal Sun to Ixalan, the wars on Torrezon waged over it wouldn't have happened. In turn, Elenda wouldn't have been motivated to go after it and perform the ritual to make herself a vampire so that she could keep going after it. Without that, the Legion of Dusk might not have ever existed in its current form. Without the Legion in its current form, the refugees that ultimately formed the Brazen Coalition might never have become refugees in the first place. Without either the Legion or the pirates to bother them, Ixalan (the continent) might have been left alone by the Torrezon natives.
Speaking of the Ixalan continent, the Sun Empire wouldn't have abused the Sun and caused the devastation that they did. Similarly, the River Heralds wouldn't be burdened with guarding it. The entire fight over Orazca wouldn't have happened because of this.
While something else (the Bat God, maybe?) might have sowed chaos in Ixalan eventually, it was the Immortal Sun (and by extension, Azor) that triggered this particular series of events.
It's something I hope they have a good reason for besides lawl evil. I get bolas being wary of Ugin, because his existence is a challenge in and of itself. Regardless of ugins intentions, he can't harm bolas if he's dead.
That mind set doesn't translate over to Ugin for how they've portrayed him imo, who they kind of sold as an enlightened and good aligned (if very aloof and seemingly uncaring at times) dragon. What does Ugin gain by removing bolas from the picture?
Leads me to believe that bolas threw the first punch. Ugin just started retaliating, and bolas played cat and mouse until he finally just killed him. Bolas could have been usurping and perverting planes that Ugin and azor were settling? Stealing artifacts of power they created and left on each plane?
Even in Amonkhet bolas knew what he was doing was straight evil, and wasteful. He said he didn't even like doing things that way unless absolutely nessecary. What kind of flamboyant evil was he tossing around to earn the ire of Ugin and azor both.
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[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
It's not even so much that he caused problems in the process of trying to solve other problems, as nobody's perfect.
It's also that he's unable to admit that he caused any problems. I actually felt sorry for him in this story not just because he was schooled by his own magic, but also because he somehow deluded himself in believing his systems were flawless when they in fact were not. He also loves to shift blame, as demonstrated with his wording regarding Ugin when he talks about their plan, and the repeated blaming of the natives on why the systems he established had flaws or loopholes those natives could exploit.
As for Ugin being enlightened good...that kind of falls flat when you consider that he showed little to no remorse for allowing the Eldrazi to consume several planes before deciding to seal them. He isn't evil...but he isn't good. In fact, he probably considers himself to necessarily be above the very concepts of good and evil. However, to tweak a phrase, he can't see the trees for the forest. In fact, I keep thinking of the deadlock he helped maintain on Tarkir (remember that he's the one who taught the khanates manifestation magic); that it's varying degrees of "desperate" for both dragons and non-dragons isn't as important to him as the "balance" he's maintaining. At a guess, I'd say he's given up on saving individuals, and only cares about the gestalt.
It also says something that he apparently became friends with someone as obsessed with conjuring strict order on multiple planes as Azor. That's why I'm thinking Ugin's own goal is something along the lines of setting up whatever oldwalkers remain (and aren't as willfully vile as Bolas) as gods of the Multiverse, expressly to keep it from tearing itself apart. Which brings me to another suspicion of mine regarding Ugin's goals--I think he wants to preserve the Multiverse in the state he knew it as forever. Hence my interest in finding out his reaction to the change in the Spark...
I know right? Amazing. I really feel like revisiting that story now. I wish I actually owned the first book... :-(
Affinity
UW Control
Commander
Sidisi, Undead Vizier
Purphoros, God of the Forge
Dragonlord Ojutai
Gishath, Sun's Avatar
The Ur-Dragon
I imagine him using a giant sandbox, though who's his poop scooper?
At first I was surprised that Azor was defenseless against Jace, then I realize that Jace was the Living Guildpact, and Azor by his own law belongs to the Azorius, and Living Guildpact has some authority over him, like how each nation has its own law to overthrow its leader when needed. Azor probably didn't expect the Living Guildpact would too be a telepath PW who just happened to be on Ixalan.
Ugin probably hinted Jace (and other walkers who knows his survival) to check on Azor to see what happened. It's wise, though he didn't expect Jace's past with Alhammarret and Ravnica might've interfered, result in Azor's exile. Honest, I think it's quite foolish of Jace to punish Azor at this point in time, because they could've worked together against Bolas, utilizing the Sun for a greater purpose. Hell, Jace could've ordered Azor to stop meddling with people's lives and help fight Bolas, instead he sent Azor to an island to live off his life. For a powerful mindmage, he sux at strategies, though we all knew that on Amonkhet, aye?
Locked in a room for over a thousand year, imagine that happened to anyone else. Urza and Bolas were free and chose to be ********s, Azor I could sympathize, at least on this facet.
I think Bolas wants the Sun to amplify his power first, and the ability to imprison was the gravy.
I agree, Bolas clearly wants more power in every way, though I doubt he wants to be the only walker, since having minions is useful, and it's fun to manipulate ambitious people.
That is my beef with the story as well. I get that Jace probably used his Guildpact power again Azor, rendered him defenseless under his own ruling, but couldn't he at least utilizes Azor's power instead of letting him rot on an island, or simply tell him NOT to meddle again? It's cruel to make another individual live under telepathic control, Jace of all people should know THAT!
He mentioned in the story that he trapped Eldrazi because he wants to study them. Eldrazi were the extension of a greater cosmic being even HE could not comprehend and he fears the result of destroying the limbs of that monster, the whole thing might just "show up".
You are not alone, I think Jace misused his power here, almost as if the writers want to showcase Jace's power, his bond with Vraska, and somehow punish a semi-antagonist to satisfy readers' need for a bad guy.
I have a feeling Azor and his buddy (Ugin?) intended to be the warden, using the Sun to amplify at least Ugin's power to keep Bolas in check, or to kill him while he's trapped. Trapping Bolas only means he cannot escape, until the two killed him.
I want to stand up for Azor here as well.
Think: When an ADULT committed a crime, do we blame the parents or do we hold him/herself responsible?
Azor was arrogant to assume authority on different planes, but those planes indeed benefit from government. The only mistake Azor made was that he refuse to acknowledge that people and society change, and changing of society means changing of laws, just like the second amendment on guns was intended for citizen to overthrow a corrupted government, not to show off masculinity. Yes, Azor should admit his mistakes in leaving and blaming, but Jace and Vraska were also wrong in condemning him for the negative development of a society, because it DID work in the beginning, it's adolescent and naive to hold a person responsible for things happened millenniums after a golden age. Adults hold responsibility for their actions, shouldn't Jace and Vraska hold citizens of Ravnica for theirs?
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
We never saw what Ixalan was like before the whole Immortal Sun saga went down, but I doubt it was much worse than what it is now.
A chilling thought is that Azor might find Old Phyrexia to be PUURFECT.
Azor's only mistake is that he failed to understand that most people aren't sphinxes, they change and adapt for conveniences, even a perfect system is not immune to people's meddling. Take U.S. for example, do we blame George Washington for establishing the nation that led to countless war in Middle East today? Do we blame the person who invented gun powder in China that it would later be used to enslave South Americans?
Azor shouldn't blame others, shouldn't impose his laws, but he is far from being the sole responsibility of Ravnica's downfall.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Okay? So he’s not perfect. Would Innistrad have been better off without Sorin? Should he be forced to spend the rest of eternity on a useless island? Wouldn’t a more proper punishment have been to make Azor obey Vraska as his captain? Or to be Jace’s sidekick? Isn’t rehabilitation a fundamental aspect of lawful punishment?
Under Jace’s magic, Azor was whimpering like a dog who did something wrong and is submitting. When that happens, you train the dog to do the right thing; you don’t abandon the dog. Azor recognized Jace as his master and would have made a great pet for Jace.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
TBH I’m a little tired of the anti-interventionist themes in MTG these days. Just because something is natural, cultural or endemic to a plane doesn’t mean it is good, healthy, right or desirable. It doesn’t mean that they are negative or need be replaced either but I think Azor was fine to bring civilization to other planes.
I’m a little tired of the themes of authority = tyranny,
Organized religion = corruption, and other such themes. I understand Social Justice as an important philosophy to share in stories but it shouldn’t be the only animating philosophy among our heroes.
I dunno, I guess I wish there was more nuance to MTG stories these days.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
So I wonder how much influence he had on Esper's culture, since that was the shard with Sphinxes.
I guess that Ugin intentions for the Multiverse is the Balance, good and evil in perfect harmony, the law is order and therefore balance. I don’t believe that Ugin forgot Azor, but probably doesn’t have a way to bring back his spark (Venser and Karn transfer I am considering it an exception rather than the rule). Perhaps pre-mending he was capable of this, now he can’t .
Nicol Bolas endgame may be to try to cause a reverse Mending to become the ruler of the Multiverse. Or, he is trying to find a way to fight off the greatest threat to his Multiverse, Phyrexia. He knows this is a threat he can’t overlook, probably the Immortal Sun is a way to keep them sealed so they stop invading other planes (I am guessing the Phyrexians will use the method of overlaying a plane over other as a means to move).
I'm convinced that Azor is Crucius. Came to Esper, saw the disorder, gave them etheruim without thinking that to get more they would need a planeswawlker (or he was short sighted to think they won't go nuts with it and become living machines) and peaced out.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
On Crucius I believe they know each other.... but it makes me wonder if Azor brought Sangrite to Esper why not bring order to Jund, Naya and Grixis? Perhaps he visited Alara before the rupture