This is the exact reason why many people are unhappy to see Jace take a leading role yet again. Tell me, why is it ok for a prominent character you like to steal attention from minor characters you don't care about but not ok for prominent characters you don't care about to steal attention from a minor character you like?
A leading role he hasn't had since SOI?
You know those characters from Innistrad who already had cards? The ones you think shouldn't have gotten new cards in SOI block? They hadn't gotten cards since the original Innistrad. So Jace absolutely needs a new card after a year and a half but those characters didn't deserve to get their second cards after four years?
Because the character that I like "stealing attention" (hardly objective) is the most popular Planeswalker of all.
I admit that Jace is more popular than characters he is theoretically taking the place of. But guess what? Avacyn, Sigarda, Bruna, Gisela, Odric, Thalia, Olivia, Geralf, and Gisa are each way more popular than Jenrik. Why does popularity justify Jace getting a card but not those other characters?
Who is a Gatewatch member.
In the Gatewatch era.
Ok, so a Gatewatch member makes sense in a leading role. But the aforementioned popular legendary creatures are iconic Innistrad characters. In a Return to Innistrad set. It makes sense for them to get new legendary creature cards by the same logic. Far more so than it does for Jenrik.
Who isn't "stealing attention" from anyone.
If he's the main protagonist, then someone else isn't. If Jace wasn't in the block, then Vraska or Ajani or the new planeswalker could have been the main protagonist. Now they're all going to be side characters. I'd call that stealing attention.
Who hasn't had a prominent role in the story since SOI.
Depends on how you define "prominent". Even in blocks where he isn't represented by a card, he gets way more focus in the story than 90% of the legendary creatures in the block. He's been less prominent than other planeswalkers in the Gatewatch, but you can't deny that he's still been quite prominent.
You know, since you care about facts.
I just think it's ironic for someone to make completely, objectively false statements relating to a character they've obsessed over for years. "Jenrik died onscreen." Are you kidding me?
If you have problems with the new story model,
I do, but even if I liked the story model and I liked Jace I would still be exhausted by your constant complaining about Jenrik and think that it isn't remotely justified. And I would still notice the hypocrisy of how your complaints about Jenrik completely contradict your position on Jace.
don't lay that burden on Jace or undermine the actual facts - he's #1,
Yes, he's the most popular planeswalker. I know that. I never tried to "undermine" that fact.
Yet I still don't understand how Jace taking priority over other characters is justified by his popularity but popular legendary creatures on Innistrad taking priority over Jenrik is not.
he's been scarce,
He's about to appear in his FIFTH (sixth counting Origins) consecutive storyline. Scarce my ass.
The only possible way he's been scarce has been on how many cards he's gotten recently (not story appearances) and even then only relative to most ridiculously prolific characters in the game. Compared to any other character, he's been doing pretty damn well for himself.
and he's in the Gatewatch.
Once again, I know that and I never disputed it.
All we even know about him is he's getting a card BTW
If you think that there's even a 1% chance of him not being the main character, you're kidding yourself. Read the art book description. Or look at any other block in which Jace has gotten a card within the past few years. We all know that he's going to be the main character. Again.
- of which he only has one in standard while other GW members have SIX.
This is a problem with how they've been representing the other Gatewatch planeswalkers, not with how they've been representing Jace. 1-3 planeswalker cards per Gatewatch member in Standard is reasonable; 5-6 is not. Jace is the actually only one who's had an acceptable number of cards recently.
And yes, after Ixalan Jace will still have a pretty reasonable number of cards, especially compared to the rest of the Gatewatch. Let me be clear: I'm not disputing whether or not Jace's presence makes sense or not. Given the way they've been doing things recently (regardless of whether or not I agree with it), it's not a surprise at all to see Jace on Ixalan. I'm not arguing that.
What I am arguing is that your argument for why Jace is ok on Ixalan and your argument for why Jenrik should have gotten a card completely contradict each other.
In both cases, it's an issue of whether or not established, popular, well-developed major characters should be given cards and story importance rather than less popular, less-developed minor characters. There's a good argument to be made for both sides, so I would be fine if you consistently supported one side or the other. But you don't. When you like the major character, you take the side of major characters. When you like the minor character, you take the side of the minor characters. It's inconsistent and hypocritical.
You are so obviously biased towards certain characters that you completely contradict yourself. It's difficult to take you seriously when you talk about what's justified and what isn't because I know that you'll change sides once something you like is on the opposite side.
Considering how much complaining I'm seeing about me complaining, it's amusing to see you complain about me not complaining this time.
Oh, I'm not complaining about you not complaining. You're thinking of someone else. I'm definitely one of the people complaining about your complaining. I thought it was pretty clear.
Jace and Jenrik are not even comparable. Jace is a Gatewatch Planeswalker... They don't even occupy the same design space in a set, let alone creative space. That's why I mentioned Olivia getting two cards over others getting one.
Jenrik should have gotten a card because he and Tamiyo's work was relevant to the story and he never got one. Jace should get a card here because he is the Gatewatch member with the least cards since the era started. It's all relative to context. Both of these have to do with not just popularity, but numbers. Jenrik's happens to be zero, and Jace's is one. Jace also happens to be popular, so that's two nails in that coffin. No reason to hold back on him from WOTC perspective.
lol Jenrik was mentioned in several Magic Story articles. It's still a far cry from "no one knows who he is or cares!!!!" whether it was on screen or not - and for the record, it happened in a flashback scene, so it still was.
I'm seeing a lot of IF - so we don't even know yet that he stole anything from anyone. You're not being objective either…
I don't see what all this fussing about Innistrad is. There's at least one other continent to explore with elves and non-lupine lycanthropes. And they havent even touched the story of the UBR skeleton, horror lord who stumbled through a suspiciously tree shaped planar portal and found himself on a snow covered mountain overlooking a city of industrious elves ruled over by a jovial WR giant. Lets stop whining about the past and look forward to the future.
My issue is being called biased for having personal preferences. If Sultai has issues with the Gatewatch model, that's perfectly acceptable to discuss in those threads and call my a hypocrite there for disagreeing (I'm neutral about the GW) if they want. But when the only highlight of this model for me is seeing more of Jace, and he's the least represented of them all, yeah I'm going to get excited that he finally gets a new card after having just one.
EDIT: Oh and Arahbo is trash. I hate these random legends in Commander products. Come hate me bro.
We didn't get a story last week and we are not getting stories for another 4 weeks, then we start Ixalan stories. Instead we are getting four podcast on commodore 2017 (last week was vampires) and then the 5th one will be previewing Ixalan.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
My issue is being called biased for having personal preferences. If Sultai has issues with the Gatewatch model, that's perfectly acceptable to discuss in those threads and call my a hypocrite there for disagreeing (I'm neutral about the GW) if they want. But when the only highlight of this model for me is seeing more of Jace, and he's the least represented of them all, yeah I'm going to get excited that he finally gets a new card after having just one.
EDIT: Oh and Arahbo is trash. I hate these random legends in Commander products. Come hate me bro.
His issue isnt that you want more Jace. His issue is how discordantly you act about what you like. You're all hyped to see Jace even though you've spent the last several pages of several threads bemoaning planeswalkers on center stage. But then when it comes to a character who only exists to fluff up another walkers story that you've chosen to obsess over even though there are way more interesting characters to get cards that haven't you push everything else aside and overinflate the value of that character. Before I get a boring astronomer(not that astronomy is boring) who's card probably wouldn't do much more than scry please give me the demon cultist who infiltrated the church of Avacyn all the way to the highest levels and is also an angel slaying bad muther****er.
Also: yes Arahbo is trash but because he is a trash card. I think its cool to have a mix of both new and old characters.
My issue is being called biased for having personal preferences. If Sultai has issues with the Gatewatch model, that's perfectly acceptable to discuss in those threads and call my a hypocrite there for disagreeing (I'm neutral about the GW) if they want. But when the only highlight of this model for me is seeing more of Jace, and he's the least represented of them all, yeah I'm going to get excited that he finally gets a new card after having just one.
EDIT: Oh and Arahbo is trash. I hate these random legends in Commander products. Come hate me bro.
His issue isnt that you want more Jace. His issue is how discordantly you act about what you like. You're all hyped to see Jace even though you've spent the last several pages of several threads bemoaning planeswalkers on center stage. But then when it comes to a character who only exists to fluff up another walkers story that you've chosen to obsess over even though there are way more interesting characters to get cards that haven't you push everything else aside and overinflate the value of that character. Before I get a boring astronomer(not that astronomy is boring) who's card probably wouldn't do much more than scry please give me the demon cultist who infiltrated the church of Avacyn all the way to the highest levels and is also an angel slaying bad muther****er.
Also: yes Arahbo is trash but because he is a trash card. I think its cool to have a mix of both new and old characters.
I never said I wanted more Jace. I said, considering we're in the Gatewatch era, it's unreasonable to not expect more Jace when he's the least represented and the most popular. Both of which are facts.
Bolded is neither objective nor fact. And everything that follows it is just hate, and "boring astronomer" is your opinion, and doesn't need to be mine. It's obvious you're both retaliating by hating something I've been vocal about admiring, because you're bitter about a new Jace card. Meanwhile, Nissa fans are enjoying 6 cards in standard. The difference here is, I've accepted the Gatewatch model of storytelling, and to me Jace is a positive aspect of it I choose to keep me positive about it. For the record, I've posted here how Jenrik dying and not getting a card was because Creative wanted Jace to lead the investigation with Tamiyo, and Jenrik was an inconvenience. Since all we know about Jace here is him getting a card, it's unreasonable to expect me to bemoan his storyline involvement when we haven't even seen it yet. Since a GW member in the story is inevitable with our current lore model, might as well be the one that has been the most scarce lately. This is neither unreasonable or biased, even if you want to believe it is based on what you know about my preferences.
EDIT: BTW, if I could get a storyline without any Planeswalkers at all, I'd be glad to see it.
I never said I wanted more Jace. I said, considering we're in the Gatewatch era, it's unreasonable to not expect more Jace when he's the least represented and the most popular. Both of which are facts.
Bolded is neither objective nor fact. And everything that follows it is just hate, and "boring astronomer" is your opinion, and doesn't need to be mine. It's obvious you're both retaliating by hating something I've been vocal about admiring, because you're bitter about a new Jace card. Meanwhile, Nissa fans are enjoying 6 cards in standard. The difference here is, I've accepted the Gatewatch model of storytelling, and to me Jace is a positive aspect of it I choose to keep me positive about it. For the record, I've posted here how Jenrik dying and not getting a card was because Creative wanted Jace to lead the investigation with Tamiyo, and Jenrik was an inconvenience. Since all we know about Jace here is him getting a card, it's unreasonable to expect me to bemoan his storyline involvement when we haven't even seen it yet. Since a GW member in the story is inevitable with our current lore model, might as well be the one that has been the most scarce lately. This is neither unreasonable or biased, even if you want to believe it is based on what you know about my preferences.
EDIT: BTW, if I could get a storyline without any Planeswalkers at all, I'd be glad to see it.
Youre right. That is my opinion. I thought I might put it in a way that's reminiscent of how you handle Jenrik and Arixmethese. But about what's after that you're absolutely wrong. I'm not retaliating against anything nor do I hate anything about a new Jace. In fact ive been very vocal about the disproportionate representation between Jace vs Nissa and Gideon. And given what I know from the leaks his new card seems super cool and I'm down to see him in the story again. Personally ive enjoyed the stories since the change to the new model. There have been problems and it started out on a low point but overall I've liked it and I'm glad that they're improving pretty steadily. And no I dont think Jenrik was ever intended to be a lead character or even one that was ever meant to get a card. He wasn't someone they needed to get out of the way so Jace could lead things. He was a name and a job that only exists because they decided Tamiyo would be studying with a "famous astronomer" who they decided should have a name. Even now you're overstating his importance.
I never said I wanted more Jace. I said, considering we're in the Gatewatch era, it's unreasonable to not expect more Jace when he's the least represented and the most popular. Both of which are facts.
Bolded is neither objective nor fact. And everything that follows it is just hate, and "boring astronomer" is your opinion, and doesn't need to be mine. It's obvious you're both retaliating by hating something I've been vocal about admiring, because you're bitter about a new Jace card. Meanwhile, Nissa fans are enjoying 6 cards in standard. The difference here is, I've accepted the Gatewatch model of storytelling, and to me Jace is a positive aspect of it I choose to keep me positive about it. For the record, I've posted here how Jenrik dying and not getting a card was because Creative wanted Jace to lead the investigation with Tamiyo, and Jenrik was an inconvenience. Since all we know about Jace here is him getting a card, it's unreasonable to expect me to bemoan his storyline involvement when we haven't even seen it yet. Since a GW member in the story is inevitable with our current lore model, might as well be the one that has been the most scarce lately. This is neither unreasonable or biased, even if you want to believe it is based on what you know about my preferences.
EDIT: BTW, if I could get a storyline without any Planeswalkers at all, I'd be glad to see it.
Youre right. That is my opinion. I thought I might put it in a way that's reminiscent of how you handle Jenrik and Arixmethese. But about what's after that you're absolutely wrong. I'm not retaliating against anything nor do I hate anything about a new Jace. In fact ive been very vocal about the disproportionate representation between Jace vs Nissa and Gideon. And given what I know from the leaks his new card seems super cool and I'm down to see him in the story again. Personally ive enjoyed the stories since the change to the new model. There have been problems and it started out on a low point but overall I've liked it and I'm glad that they're improving pretty steadily. And no I dont think Jenrik was ever intended to be a lead character or even one that was ever meant to get a card. He wasn't someone they needed to get out of the way so Jace could lead things. He was a name and a job that only exists because they decided Tamiyo would be studying with a "famous astronomer" who they decided should have a name. Even now you're overstating his importance.
Maybe don't take things so personal.
Being called a hypocrite for actually liking something WOTC is doing seems pretty negative to me. And being invested enough in the game to want to see Jenrik and Arixmethes cards in a Return set isn't something I'm ashamed of. The only time I've even mentioned Jenrik this whole year was when the Grixis deck leader was leaked and I said I hoped it would include Choryu or Jenrik. When the latter died, I removed him from my sig and username because I'm realistic about it.
Anyone else think there's a chance for Vraska to be UBG this time around.
I wish. Tezzeret and Ashiok aren't going green any time soon, so Vraska picking up blue or Kiora going black are my big chances for a GUB planeswalker...
Being called a hypocrite for actually liking something WOTC is doing seems pretty negative to me.
Once again: this has nothing to do with you being positive/liking something/not complaining for once. I called you a hypocrite not just because you were positive about something, but because you are being positive about one thing and extremely negative about another when both things are the result of the exact same principle: more popular and more important characters taking priority over less popular and less important ones. With Jace, you support this concept, but with Jenrik you completely reject it. And don't say that it's different between legends and planeswalkers, because WotC clearly applies this principle to both.
Your policy with Jenrik is that named characters without cards should get cards instead of ones that already have cards. If we were to apply that logic to planeswalkers, the only ones that would ever get printed are ones like Crucius, Ramaz, etc. Certainly not Jace, who already has not just one but SEVEN cards already.
Your policy with Jace is that popularity and an important role in preexisting story importance is enough justification for more cards and story importance. If we apply that to the legendary creatures in SOI, clearly it would favor characters like Olivia, Avacyn, and Sigarda over Jenrik and Jenrik would have never even been considered for a card.
So, tell me: how is your stance on Jace not completely contradictory to your stance on Jenrik?
Being called a hypocrite for actually liking something WOTC is doing seems pretty negative to me.
Once again: this has nothing to do with you being positive/liking something/not complaining for once. I called you a hypocrite not just because you were positive about something, but because you are being positive about one thing and extremely negative about another when both things are the result of the exact same principle: more popular and more important characters taking priority over less popular and less important ones. With Jace, you support this concept, but with Jenrik you completely reject it. And don't say that it's different between legends and planeswalkers, because WotC clearly applies this principle to both.
Your policy with Jenrik is that named characters without cards should get cards instead of ones that already have cards. If we were to apply that logic to planeswalkers, the only ones that would ever get printed are ones like Crucius, Ramaz, etc. Certainly not Jace, who already has not just one but SEVEN cards already.
Your policy with Jace is that popularity and an important role in preexisting story importance is enough justification for more cards and story importance. If we apply that to the legendary creatures in SOI, clearly it would favor characters like Olivia, Avacyn, and Sigarda over Jenrik and Jenrik would have never even been considered for a card.
So, tell me: how is your stance on Jace not completely contradictory to your stance on Jenrik?
That's just it. You can't apply "that logic" to Planeswalkers. Least of all the Gatewatch planes walkers. Who are in every story, on every plane we visit, and the main cast. Expecting a Jenrik card in Return to Innistrad or in a Commander product is vastly different from expectations about the Gatewatch. You're comparing apples to oranges here. You need to stop assuming Jace and Jenrik occupy the same creative or even mechanical space.
And you need to look at context here. For a Gatewatch member, Jace has been the scarcest. Only one card while Nissa has six. He lead only one story, and is the only member without a Planeswalker deck. Even Nicol Bolas got one and Jace has yet to. And from a Legends of a plane perspective, Jenrik has zero cards while Olivia has two. While Odric has two. While many have two. So really, the reasoning still applies here. It's about numbers. And while the argument for Jenrik can be "he's just some random flavor text character! Stop expecting a card for him over a second round of cards for others" - Jace happens to be the most popular character and PW in Magic as well as the scarcest GW member recently. So it's two nails in that coffin.
It's obvious to me you're one of those irrational Jace hater hipsters, though. Let's go ahead and discuss how you think Blue is the worst and Delver was unfair while we're at it.
Anyone else think there's a chance for Vraska to be UBG this time around.
Vraska was part of the leaked cards, she is 3BG again.
True. She could still have a UBG Planeswalker deck though! And if the other is WR for the Aztec lady then that would work out perfectly.
I'm guessing its Jace and Vraska who get the decks. And why would Vraska pick up U?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Being called a hypocrite for actually liking something WOTC is doing seems pretty negative to me.
Once again: this has nothing to do with you being positive/liking something/not complaining for once. I called you a hypocrite not just because you were positive about something, but because you are being positive about one thing and extremely negative about another when both things are the result of the exact same principle: more popular and more important characters taking priority over less popular and less important ones. With Jace, you support this concept, but with Jenrik you completely reject it. And don't say that it's different between legends and planeswalkers, because WotC clearly applies this principle to both.
Your policy with Jenrik is that named characters without cards should get cards instead of ones that already have cards. If we were to apply that logic to planeswalkers, the only ones that would ever get printed are ones like Crucius, Ramaz, etc. Certainly not Jace, who already has not just one but SEVEN cards already.
Your policy with Jace is that popularity and an important role in preexisting story importance is enough justification for more cards and story importance. If we apply that to the legendary creatures in SOI, clearly it would favor characters like Olivia, Avacyn, and Sigarda over Jenrik and Jenrik would have never even been considered for a card.
So, tell me: how is your stance on Jace not completely contradictory to your stance on Jenrik?
That's just it. You can't apply "that logic" to Planeswalkers. Least of all the Gatewatch planes walkers. Who are in every story, on every plane we visit, and the main cast.
Everyone expects a Gatewatch planeswalker to get a card in a block. Everyone expects popular legendary creatures (Olivia, Sigarda, etc.) to get new cards in a return block to their plane. In one of these cases, you think that they are correct to following their standard procedure and meeting player expectations; in the other, you insist that they are incorrect for doing the same thing. As I said, it doesn't matter if it's a planeswalker or a legendary creature; the principle being applied is the same.
Expecting a Jenrik card in Return to Innistrad or in a Commander product is vastly different from expectations about the Gatewatch. You're comparing apples to oranges here.
No, it's more like comparing larger apples to smaller apples. You're saying that the red large apple is better than the green large apple but the green small apple is better than the red small apple.
Think of it this way: there's a scale of one to ten for how prominent/popular/important a character is. One is the most obscure, ten is the least obscure. Both legends and planeswalkers exist on this scale. Legends are generally lower on the scale and planeswalkers are generally higher, but there can be exceptions. Avacyn or Emrakul, for instance, would rank much higher than Tibalt.
Jace is a 10 on this scale, for all the reasons you've repeated a dozen times. Any other planeswalker that might have theoretically been the main character instead of him (and yes, he will be the main character, don't even try to say otherwise) or even just gotten a planeswalker card instead of him would probably be somewhere from 7 to 9. 7 for the new planeswalker, 8 for Vraska, and 9 for Ajani, to stick with the examples I used earlier in the thread.
Meanwhile, Jenrik is a 2. Characters that you think shouldn't have gotten their second cards so that Jenrik could get a card are all higher than that. Odric is a 4. Olivia is a 5. Both are much higher than Jenrik.
So your logic is that a 2 should get a card instead of a 5, but a 10 should get a card instead of a 7/8/9. For the former, you think that less popular, more obscure characters deserve cards more than more popular, less obscure ones, but for the latter, you think the exact opposite. Are you advocating popular characters or unpopular characters? Or do you just really have a grudge against characters who are in the middle area in terms of popularity?
You need to stop assuming Jace and Jenrik occupy the same creative or even mechanical space.
I never said they occupied the same creative space and I never said anything about mechanical space. Jace is on a much higher tier of creative relevance than Jenrik, but the system that WotC applies to decide who gets cards and who doesn't is the same for both legendary creatures and planeswalkers. Popular characters are more likely to get cards than obscure ones, even if the popular ones already have more cards than the obscure ones, even if the obscure ones don't have any cards at all. You support that reasoning for Jace but completely refute it for Jenrik.
And you need to look at context here. For a Gatewatch member, Jace has been the scarcest. Only one card while Nissa has six.
Wow, I've never heard this before! This changes everything!
He lead only one story, and is the only member without a Planeswalker deck. Even Nicol Bolas got one and Jace has yet to.
Why do you keep bringing up this thing about planeswalker decks? You do realize that most of the planeswalker cards in them are complete garbage, right? The only ones that have been remotely playable outside of the most casual of casual groups have been Gideon and Tezzeret. That's two out of eight. You have a 25% chance of your precious planeswalker deck Jace even being decent. I would bet money that in a few weeks when the planeswalker Jace that you asked for is revealed, you'll complain about how bad it is.
And from a Legends of a plane perspective, Jenrik has zero cards while Olivia has two. While Odric has two. While many have two. So really, the reasoning still applies here. It's about numbers.
Jace has seven planeswalker cards, soon to be nine. Any non-Gatewatch planeswalker has less.
Also, Jace has appeared in seven storylines counting Origins, soon to be eight. Any character, even in the Gatewatch, has less than that. (Gideon has seven.)
Also also, Jace has been the main character of two blocks already, soon to be three. Once again, any character, even one that's in the Gatewatch, has less than that.
And while you can say that it's been a whole year and a half (the horror!) since his last card/leading role, I could say that it had been four and a half years since some of those Innistrad characters (Olivia, Thalia, Sigarda, etc.) had gotten their last cards and story appearances.
Once again, let's compare Jace and Olivia. Pre-Ixalan, Jace had seven times as many cards as Olivia pre-SOI. (Granted, the average planeswalker has more cards than the average legendary creature, but even taking that into account it's still not proportional.) Jace's most recent card was 1.5 years ago when Olivia's was three times that much. Yet Jace getting a card in Ixalan is not only ok with you, but something that should have happened, but Olivia getting a card in SOI should not have happened.
And while the argument for Jenrik can be "he's just some random flavor text character! Stop expecting a card for him over a second round of cards for others"
That exact argument has been stated by myself and others and you have disputed it.
- Jace happens to be the most popular character and PW in Magic as well as the scarcest GW member recently. So it's two nails in that coffin.
Once again, you've already said this numerous times. And once again, I'm not trying to argue that Jace doesn't make sense in Ixalan. He does. The debate is over whether Jace deserves a card/leading story role in Ixalan, just as the debate was whether Jenrik deserved a card in SOI. You answer yes for the first and no for the second. Allow me to remind you that you are essentially saying that a 10 on the aforementioned scale should get a card/story role over an 8, but a 5 shouldn't get one over a 2. Once again, I ask you: how does that make any sense?
(And no, telling me Jace is popular and is in the Gatewatch and has been so deprived of cards for the thirtieth time does not make your opinion on Jace any less contradictory with your opinion on Jenrik.)
It's obvious to me you're one of those irrational Jace hater hipsters, though.
Really? This is the best you can do? Insulting me instead of actually arguing?
But for the record, I'm pretty indifferent towards Jace as a character. I have much more of a problem with the Gatewatch concept in general than with Jace specifically. If I had to choose a favorite member of the Gatewatch, Jace would probably be my second favorite, as weird as that sounds.
Let's go ahead and discuss how you think Blue is the worst and Delver was unfair while we're at it.
Blue is my favorite color along with black and I haven't played formats where Delver is relevant so have I no opinion on its fairness. Try again.
Anyone else think there's a chance for Vraska to be UBG this time around.
Vraska was part of the leaked cards, she is 3BG again.
True. She could still have a UBG Planeswalker deck though! And if the other is WR for the Aztec lady then that would work out perfectly.
I'm guessing its Jace and Vraska who get the decks. And why would Vraska pick up U?
Let's hope so. I've been waiting for Jace to get his first deck. I think it'll be the first Blue one as well. Would be nice if his had a card that tutored his PW card too the way Nissa's did.
Anyone else think there's a chance for Vraska to be UBG this time around.
Vraska was part of the leaked cards, she is 3BG again.
True. She could still have a UBG Planeswalker deck though! And if the other is WR for the Aztec lady then that would work out perfectly.
I'm guessing its Jace and Vraska who get the decks. And why would Vraska pick up U?
Let's hope so. I've been waiting for Jace to get his first deck. I think it'll be the first Blue one as well. Would be nice if his had a card that tutored his PW card too the way Nissa's did.
All the planeswalker decks have two copies of a card that tutors the face walker from the deck or graveyard. This so you can play the face walker of the deck more often.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Anyone else think there's a chance for Vraska to be UBG this time around.
Vraska was part of the leaked cards, she is 3BG again.
True. She could still have a UBG Planeswalker deck though! And if the other is WR for the Aztec lady then that would work out perfectly.
I'm guessing its Jace and Vraska who get the decks. And why would Vraska pick up U?
Why would Tamiyo suddenly get WG, or Nissa get U because creative needed her too/balance/story reasons/or even the game needs more 3 color walkers.
As for reasons why Vraska could pick up blue, well she's a pirate captain now. If pirates lean heavily into blue then that could be factor.
I think her tendency to archive trophies in a museum seems very U or UB.
There's been characters get new colors for less.
Anyone else think there's a chance for Vraska to be UBG this time around.
Vraska was part of the leaked cards, she is 3BG again.
True. She could still have a UBG Planeswalker deck though! And if the other is WR for the Aztec lady then that would work out perfectly.
I'm guessing its Jace and Vraska who get the decks. And why would Vraska pick up U?
Why would Tamiyo suddenly get WG, or Nissa get U because creative needed her too/balance/story reasons/or even the game needs more 3 color walkers.
Yeah but her being face of a set is a more likely means they locked her in and don't need to find ways to fill in her colors. Also outside of three color sets, wizards don't like to do three colors walkers since the walker is then harder to play.
As for reasons why Vraska could pick up blue, well she's a pirate captain now. If pirates lean heavily into blue then that could be factor.
Gideon also helped out the Boros and is still mono-white and Liliana was a healer in her youth and still mono-black. If Vraska is just using them to reach her goals that still is black.
I think her tendency to archive trophies in a museum seems very U or UB.
How so? It seems more like an ego thing since its not like she studying them, more of an art gallery than a museums.
[quote]There's been characters get new colors for less.
Trueish
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Anyone else think there's a chance for Vraska to be UBG this time around.
Vraska was part of the leaked cards, she is 3BG again.
True. She could still have a UBG Planeswalker deck though! And if the other is WR for the Aztec lady then that would work out perfectly.
I'm guessing its Jace and Vraska who get the decks. And why would Vraska pick up U?
Why would Tamiyo suddenly get WG, or Nissa get U because creative needed her too/balance/story reasons/or even the game needs more 3 color walkers.
As for reasons why Vraska could pick up blue, well she's a pirate captain now. If pirates lean heavily into blue then that could be factor.
I think her tendency to archive trophies in a museum seems very U or UB.
There's been characters get new colors for less.
"She's pirate and she collects artifacts" is a much, much better justification for adding blue than "he did time travel one time."
That said, we already know that her card in the main set is still only BG (sadly). Her planeswalker deck card will probably be BG as well if for no other reason to avoid overlap with Jace, who will definitely have the other planeswalker deck. No Sultai Vraska in this block.
I'm still going to hope for a Sultai Vraska in a future set, though. She's one of the few planeswalkers who even knows that Tarkir exists, so it would be really cool if she helped reestablish the Sultai when we return to Tarkir.
[quote from="user_938036 »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-storyline/778130-ixalan-general-discussion?comment=132"]Vraska was part of the leaked cards, she is 3BG again.
True. She could still have a UBG Planeswalker deck though! And if the other is WR for the Aztec lady then that would work out perfectly.
I'm guessing its Jace and Vraska who get the decks. And why would Vraska pick up U?
Why would Tamiyo suddenly get WG, or Nissa get U because creative needed her too/balance/story reasons/or even the game needs more 3 color walkers.
Yeah but her being face of a set is a more likely means they locked her in and don't need to find ways to fill in her colors. Also outside of three color sets, wizards don't like to do three colors walkers since the walker is then harder to play.
As for reasons why Vraska could pick up blue, well she's a pirate captain now. If pirates lean heavily into blue then that could be factor.
Gideon also helped out the Boros and is still mono-white and Liliana was a healer in her youth and still mono-black. If Vraska is just using them to reach her goals that still is black.
I think her tendency to archive trophies in a museum seems very U or UB.
How so? It seems more like an ego thing since its not like she studying them, more of an art gallery than a museums.
There's been characters get new colors for less.
Trueish
</blockquote>or
I thought this was a 3 color set.
We have at least Naya Dinosaurs and Grixis Pirates.
I actually missed the Vraska card on spoilers. So I guess it's a moot point.
Jenrik should have gotten a card because he and Tamiyo's work was relevant to the story and he never got one. Jace should get a card here because he is the Gatewatch member with the least cards since the era started. It's all relative to context. Both of these have to do with not just popularity, but numbers. Jenrik's happens to be zero, and Jace's is one. Jace also happens to be popular, so that's two nails in that coffin. No reason to hold back on him from WOTC perspective.
lol Jenrik was mentioned in several Magic Story articles. It's still a far cry from "no one knows who he is or cares!!!!" whether it was on screen or not - and for the record, it happened in a flashback scene, so it still was.
I'm seeing a lot of IF - so we don't even know yet that he stole anything from anyone. You're not being objective either…
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
La la la lalala la la.
EDIT: Oh and Arahbo is trash. I hate these random legends in Commander products. Come hate me bro.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
http://magic.wizards.com/en/products/hour-devastation/story
We didn't get a story last week and we are not getting stories for another 4 weeks, then we start Ixalan stories. Instead we are getting four podcast on commodore 2017 (last week was vampires) and then the 5th one will be previewing Ixalan.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
His issue isnt that you want more Jace. His issue is how discordantly you act about what you like. You're all hyped to see Jace even though you've spent the last several pages of several threads bemoaning planeswalkers on center stage. But then when it comes to a character who only exists to fluff up another walkers story that you've chosen to obsess over even though there are way more interesting characters to get cards that haven't you push everything else aside and overinflate the value of that character. Before I get a boring astronomer(not that astronomy is boring) who's card probably wouldn't do much more than scry please give me the demon cultist who infiltrated the church of Avacyn all the way to the highest levels and is also an angel slaying bad muther****er.
Also: yes Arahbo is trash but because he is a trash card. I think its cool to have a mix of both new and old characters.
Bolded is neither objective nor fact. And everything that follows it is just hate, and "boring astronomer" is your opinion, and doesn't need to be mine. It's obvious you're both retaliating by hating something I've been vocal about admiring, because you're bitter about a new Jace card. Meanwhile, Nissa fans are enjoying 6 cards in standard. The difference here is, I've accepted the Gatewatch model of storytelling, and to me Jace is a positive aspect of it I choose to keep me positive about it. For the record, I've posted here how Jenrik dying and not getting a card was because Creative wanted Jace to lead the investigation with Tamiyo, and Jenrik was an inconvenience. Since all we know about Jace here is him getting a card, it's unreasonable to expect me to bemoan his storyline involvement when we haven't even seen it yet. Since a GW member in the story is inevitable with our current lore model, might as well be the one that has been the most scarce lately. This is neither unreasonable or biased, even if you want to believe it is based on what you know about my preferences.
EDIT: BTW, if I could get a storyline without any Planeswalkers at all, I'd be glad to see it.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Youre right. That is my opinion. I thought I might put it in a way that's reminiscent of how you handle Jenrik and Arixmethese. But about what's after that you're absolutely wrong. I'm not retaliating against anything nor do I hate anything about a new Jace. In fact ive been very vocal about the disproportionate representation between Jace vs Nissa and Gideon. And given what I know from the leaks his new card seems super cool and I'm down to see him in the story again. Personally ive enjoyed the stories since the change to the new model. There have been problems and it started out on a low point but overall I've liked it and I'm glad that they're improving pretty steadily. And no I dont think Jenrik was ever intended to be a lead character or even one that was ever meant to get a card. He wasn't someone they needed to get out of the way so Jace could lead things. He was a name and a job that only exists because they decided Tamiyo would be studying with a "famous astronomer" who they decided should have a name. Even now you're overstating his importance.
Maybe don't take things so personal.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I wish. Tezzeret and Ashiok aren't going green any time soon, so Vraska picking up blue or Kiora going black are my big chances for a GUB planeswalker...
RWU
GUB
WBR
URG
BGW
True. She could still have a UBG Planeswalker deck though! And if the other is WR for the Aztec lady then that would work out perfectly.
Once again: this has nothing to do with you being positive/liking something/not complaining for once. I called you a hypocrite not just because you were positive about something, but because you are being positive about one thing and extremely negative about another when both things are the result of the exact same principle: more popular and more important characters taking priority over less popular and less important ones. With Jace, you support this concept, but with Jenrik you completely reject it. And don't say that it's different between legends and planeswalkers, because WotC clearly applies this principle to both.
Your policy with Jenrik is that named characters without cards should get cards instead of ones that already have cards. If we were to apply that logic to planeswalkers, the only ones that would ever get printed are ones like Crucius, Ramaz, etc. Certainly not Jace, who already has not just one but SEVEN cards already.
Your policy with Jace is that popularity and an important role in preexisting story importance is enough justification for more cards and story importance. If we apply that to the legendary creatures in SOI, clearly it would favor characters like Olivia, Avacyn, and Sigarda over Jenrik and Jenrik would have never even been considered for a card.
So, tell me: how is your stance on Jace not completely contradictory to your stance on Jenrik?
And you need to look at context here. For a Gatewatch member, Jace has been the scarcest. Only one card while Nissa has six. He lead only one story, and is the only member without a Planeswalker deck. Even Nicol Bolas got one and Jace has yet to. And from a Legends of a plane perspective, Jenrik has zero cards while Olivia has two. While Odric has two. While many have two. So really, the reasoning still applies here. It's about numbers. And while the argument for Jenrik can be "he's just some random flavor text character! Stop expecting a card for him over a second round of cards for others" - Jace happens to be the most popular character and PW in Magic as well as the scarcest GW member recently. So it's two nails in that coffin.
It's obvious to me you're one of those irrational Jace hater hipsters, though. Let's go ahead and discuss how you think Blue is the worst and Delver was unfair while we're at it.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I'm guessing its Jace and Vraska who get the decks. And why would Vraska pick up U?
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Everyone expects a Gatewatch planeswalker to get a card in a block. Everyone expects popular legendary creatures (Olivia, Sigarda, etc.) to get new cards in a return block to their plane. In one of these cases, you think that they are correct to following their standard procedure and meeting player expectations; in the other, you insist that they are incorrect for doing the same thing. As I said, it doesn't matter if it's a planeswalker or a legendary creature; the principle being applied is the same.
No, it's more like comparing larger apples to smaller apples. You're saying that the red large apple is better than the green large apple but the green small apple is better than the red small apple.
Think of it this way: there's a scale of one to ten for how prominent/popular/important a character is. One is the most obscure, ten is the least obscure. Both legends and planeswalkers exist on this scale. Legends are generally lower on the scale and planeswalkers are generally higher, but there can be exceptions. Avacyn or Emrakul, for instance, would rank much higher than Tibalt.
Jace is a 10 on this scale, for all the reasons you've repeated a dozen times. Any other planeswalker that might have theoretically been the main character instead of him (and yes, he will be the main character, don't even try to say otherwise) or even just gotten a planeswalker card instead of him would probably be somewhere from 7 to 9. 7 for the new planeswalker, 8 for Vraska, and 9 for Ajani, to stick with the examples I used earlier in the thread.
Meanwhile, Jenrik is a 2. Characters that you think shouldn't have gotten their second cards so that Jenrik could get a card are all higher than that. Odric is a 4. Olivia is a 5. Both are much higher than Jenrik.
So your logic is that a 2 should get a card instead of a 5, but a 10 should get a card instead of a 7/8/9. For the former, you think that less popular, more obscure characters deserve cards more than more popular, less obscure ones, but for the latter, you think the exact opposite. Are you advocating popular characters or unpopular characters? Or do you just really have a grudge against characters who are in the middle area in terms of popularity?
I never said they occupied the same creative space and I never said anything about mechanical space. Jace is on a much higher tier of creative relevance than Jenrik, but the system that WotC applies to decide who gets cards and who doesn't is the same for both legendary creatures and planeswalkers. Popular characters are more likely to get cards than obscure ones, even if the popular ones already have more cards than the obscure ones, even if the obscure ones don't have any cards at all. You support that reasoning for Jace but completely refute it for Jenrik.
Wow, I've never heard this before! This changes everything!
Why do you keep bringing up this thing about planeswalker decks? You do realize that most of the planeswalker cards in them are complete garbage, right? The only ones that have been remotely playable outside of the most casual of casual groups have been Gideon and Tezzeret. That's two out of eight. You have a 25% chance of your precious planeswalker deck Jace even being decent. I would bet money that in a few weeks when the planeswalker Jace that you asked for is revealed, you'll complain about how bad it is.
Jace has seven planeswalker cards, soon to be nine. Any non-Gatewatch planeswalker has less.
Also, Jace has appeared in seven storylines counting Origins, soon to be eight. Any character, even in the Gatewatch, has less than that. (Gideon has seven.)
Also also, Jace has been the main character of two blocks already, soon to be three. Once again, any character, even one that's in the Gatewatch, has less than that.
And while you can say that it's been a whole year and a half (the horror!) since his last card/leading role, I could say that it had been four and a half years since some of those Innistrad characters (Olivia, Thalia, Sigarda, etc.) had gotten their last cards and story appearances.
Once again, let's compare Jace and Olivia. Pre-Ixalan, Jace had seven times as many cards as Olivia pre-SOI. (Granted, the average planeswalker has more cards than the average legendary creature, but even taking that into account it's still not proportional.) Jace's most recent card was 1.5 years ago when Olivia's was three times that much. Yet Jace getting a card in Ixalan is not only ok with you, but something that should have happened, but Olivia getting a card in SOI should not have happened.
That exact argument has been stated by myself and others and you have disputed it.
Once again, you've already said this numerous times. And once again, I'm not trying to argue that Jace doesn't make sense in Ixalan. He does. The debate is over whether Jace deserves a card/leading story role in Ixalan, just as the debate was whether Jenrik deserved a card in SOI. You answer yes for the first and no for the second. Allow me to remind you that you are essentially saying that a 10 on the aforementioned scale should get a card/story role over an 8, but a 5 shouldn't get one over a 2. Once again, I ask you: how does that make any sense?
(And no, telling me Jace is popular and is in the Gatewatch and has been so deprived of cards for the thirtieth time does not make your opinion on Jace any less contradictory with your opinion on Jenrik.)
Really? This is the best you can do? Insulting me instead of actually arguing?
But for the record, I'm pretty indifferent towards Jace as a character. I have much more of a problem with the Gatewatch concept in general than with Jace specifically. If I had to choose a favorite member of the Gatewatch, Jace would probably be my second favorite, as weird as that sounds.
Blue is my favorite color along with black and I haven't played formats where Delver is relevant so have I no opinion on its fairness. Try again.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
All the planeswalker decks have two copies of a card that tutors the face walker from the deck or graveyard. This so you can play the face walker of the deck more often.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Why would Tamiyo suddenly get WG, or Nissa get U because creative needed her too/balance/story reasons/or even the game needs more 3 color walkers.
As for reasons why Vraska could pick up blue, well she's a pirate captain now. If pirates lean heavily into blue then that could be factor.
I think her tendency to archive trophies in a museum seems very U or UB.
There's been characters get new colors for less.
Yeah but her being face of a set is a more likely means they locked her in and don't need to find ways to fill in her colors. Also outside of three color sets, wizards don't like to do three colors walkers since the walker is then harder to play.
Gideon also helped out the Boros and is still mono-white and Liliana was a healer in her youth and still mono-black. If Vraska is just using them to reach her goals that still is black.
Trueish
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
"She's pirate and she collects artifacts" is a much, much better justification for adding blue than "he did time travel one time."
That said, we already know that her card in the main set is still only BG (sadly). Her planeswalker deck card will probably be BG as well if for no other reason to avoid overlap with Jace, who will definitely have the other planeswalker deck. No Sultai Vraska in this block.
I'm still going to hope for a Sultai Vraska in a future set, though. She's one of the few planeswalkers who even knows that Tarkir exists, so it would be really cool if she helped reestablish the Sultai when we return to Tarkir.
Yeah but her being face of a set is a more likely means they locked her in and don't need to find ways to fill in her colors. Also outside of three color sets, wizards don't like to do three colors walkers since the walker is then harder to play.
Gideon also helped out the Boros and is still mono-white and Liliana was a healer in her youth and still mono-black. If Vraska is just using them to reach her goals that still is black.
</blockquote>or
I thought this was a 3 color set.
We have at least Naya Dinosaurs and Grixis Pirates.
I actually missed the Vraska card on spoilers. So I guess it's a moot point.
Link to artist and piece:
http://sandara.deviantart.com/art/Dino-and-Pirate-696648494
Pretty sure it's just pure coincidence.
There is a gun. Definitely pure coincidence.
Cōnservātum album delenda est.