In case there's any confusion, this is purely a "cosmetic" result. The Immortal Sun will not come with the package. Orazca will be purely a strategically convenient prize for whoever gains control of it. And for those complaining about the writers having to write the result of the polls a month before, you obviously haven't taken into account that they've probably already written an iteration of the ending already for each faction. They're not so stupid as to hang their entire plotlines on random public whims.
While it might be entirely coincidental, is anyone else getting a vague "Castle in the Sky" vibe from the Ixalan story? Heroes team up with a crew of lovable pirates to seek a lost civilization, armed with a special artifact that helps show the way, with an enemy army in hot pursuit. The city/ruins in question hold lots of gold and a special glowing powersource that grants the wielder unlimited power. And finally, the villain reaches the city first and awakens it, forcing the heroes to race to stop him.
Now that Kumena has (probably) reached the city first and the Elder Dinosaurs have awoken, I half-expect him to go full on Colonel Musca and start wielding the Immortal Sun's power in a hail of destruction, cackling in Mark Hamill's voice.
Not to be a wet blanket, but I don’t really care who gets the city. I’m much more interested in what the immortal sun is, who gets the immortal sun, who the winged beast is, and what happens with Angarth, Vraska, Jace, and Bolas.
"I came into this thread and made a post just to say that I am not interested in the current conversation at all."
Edit : by the way, Dinosaurs are NOT a faction. The Sun Empire is a faction. Dinosaurs are the things they ride and feed people to so that they can be all high and mighty about their stupid hypocritical "we don't kill bullcrap.
Are people still harping about this hypocrisy thing, even though it's been debunked multiple times already?
Are people still harping about this hypocrisy thing, even though it's been debunked multiple times already?
"I don't have to kill you, but I will maim you and leave you defenseless for my Dinosaur to eat." was a thing that happened, and remember they are the good guys and not those dirty evil vampires.
Are people still harping about this hypocrisy thing, even though it's been debunked multiple times already?
"I don't have to kill you, but I will maim you and leave you defenseless for my Dinosaur to eat." was a thing that happened, and remember they are the good guys and not those dirty evil vampires.
Wasn't the idea that there aren't supposed to be any "good guys" in this whole conflict? Just different groups with their own agenda for Orazca and The Immortal Sun?
If the Dinosaurs control the city, could that mean the Elder dinosaurs and not the Sun Empire?
Well we don't know anything about the Elder Dinosaurs. We know something woke up but in Storm the Vault there are giant mechs too. The Elders might be just be in this set because they already had a bunch in Ixalan and they wanted to save some cool stuff for this set. How do you follow up introducing dinosaurs? By making huge, super badass, ancient dinos.
Are people still harping about this hypocrisy thing, even though it's been debunked multiple times already?
"I don't have to kill you, but I will maim you and leave you defenseless for my Dinosaur to eat." was a thing that happened, and remember they are the good guys and not those dirty evil vampires.
Wasn't the idea that there aren't supposed to be any "good guys" in this whole conflict? Just different groups with their own agenda for Orazca and The Immortal Sun?
That was supposed to be the idea, but thus far they never really gave us a good reason to empathize with the Vampires..as the closest thing to a good guy was first introduced being a blood frenzied Psycho..and Vona didn't help things with that, while we never really got an outright "badguy" among the Sun Empire. The Emperor comes off slimy, and Hulati's whole "I am going to leave to to die" things are never portrayed as evil persay.
Are people still harping about this hypocrisy thing, even though it's been debunked multiple times already?
"I don't have to kill you, but I will maim you and leave you defenseless for my Dinosaur to eat." was a thing that happened, and remember they are the good guys and not those dirty evil vampires.
Again, that's not the reason at all. Only the knights in the sun empire don't kill personally. They kill through dinosaur to show their mastery over their beast companions.
I suppose this is one of those instances where someone just wants to hate something and desperately tries to find reasons to do so.
Also, as Etherium Sage said, the creative team has stated in the past that they didn't want any one force in this conflict to be "good" or "bad". It's all supposed to be various shades of grey. So basically you dislike an aspect of the story that creative themselves denied exists and is not supported at all by the material we have. You're literally making this up.
I'm the last guy to senselessly defend these Magic stories as I critisize them a lot myself and personally I don't even like the Ixalan arc as much as other arcs in the past, but this is just ridiculous. And not only that, it also gets annoying when it keeps being repeated every three pages after people show you that you're wrong by quoting or linking to articles etc.
You can empathize with the Vampires because they are addicted to blood and are trying to get over their addiction. I don’t know if you know anyone in your life who has struggled with addiction, but I empathize with the Vampires more than any other tribe.
They are, in no way, shape, or form supposed to be the bad guys. Just like how the Sun Empire isn’t supposed to be the good guys. After the bad guy Bolas defeated the good guys in the Gatewatch, creative wanted to have a fun story that didn’t have good guys or bad guys.
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Not to be a wet blanket, but I don’t really care who gets the city. I’m much more interested in what the immortal sun is, who gets the immortal sun, who the winged beast is, and what happens with Angarth, Vraska, Jace, and Bolas.
"I came into this thread and made a post just to say that I am not interested in the current conversation at all."
Okay, so I can’t be critical? You criticizing my post adds so much to the conversation...
Seriously, we vote on who has control of the city, not the immortal sun. We don’t get to vote on who gets the immortal sun, who the winged beast is, or what happens to the most compelling characters in the story. I never said I wasn’t interested in the current conversation; I was just saying that this promo doesn’t appeal to me, and then stated the reasons why. Are we not supposed to be critical? Isn’t that the point of a thread that talks about the story?
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Again, that's not the reason at all. Only the knights in the sun empire don't kill personally. They kill through dinosaur to show their mastery over their beast companions.
And I find that to be bullox, especially when Hualti shows up she always reminds us about "I dun kill."
Also, as Etherium Sage said, the creative team has stated in the past that they didn't want any one force in this conflict to be "good" or "bad". It's all supposed to be various shades of grey.
and I am saying that they failed in what they were going for, the Vampires were not grey.
after people show you that you're wrong by quoting or linking to articles etc.
If you have to link articles where the authors have to tell us that the conflict is supposed to be shades of grey instead of that coming across in the actual story that proves that they didn't get the shades of grey correct in the actual story.
You can empathize with the Vampires because they are addicted to blood and are trying to get over their addiction. I don’t know if you know anyone in your life who has struggled with addiction, but I empathize with the Vampires more than any other tribe.
Only my Mother, My father, my Step Father, My Step Brother. Effectively my entire family, but that doesn't mean WOTC didn't completely drop the ball on making the Vampires look morally grey.
Edit : And the fact that the Vampires want the Sun to sate their "addiction" sort of undercuts the empathy because it just sort of means they want the Ultimate High and they only got addicted in the first place to get the Sun back in the first place.
If the vampires are supposed to be morally grey, then we have to take Creative's word for it, because it doesn't show at all in the actual story, where all the vampires we see are either ravening monsters, sadists, or random evil mooks serving as canon fodder. Furthermore, they all undertook their vampirism willingly--they're invading Ixalan for the Immortal Sun because they want to enjoy their power without having to pay the cost. They have their cake, and now they're pillaging and killing so that they can eat it too.
Now, perhaps the Immortal Sun was indeed theirs to begin with and it was stolen from them. That gives them a legitimate and understandable goal--it doesn't, however, make them "grey." Even if they are somehow suffering terribly for their vampirism, I see no reason in the least to sympathize with their plight, given that 1.) they asked for it and 2.) they expressly utilize it for the purpose of conquering and subjugating.
Edit : And the fact that the Vampires want the Sun to sate their "addiction" sort of undercuts the empathy because it just sort of means they want the Ultimate High and they only got addicted in the first place to get the Sun back in the first place.
I don't think the sun really functions as an, 'Ultimate High,' in this instance. It's more along the lines of say dealing with an addiction by utilizing a substance that binds to the same neuroreceptors (preventing/reducing withdrawal symptoms) but doesn't cause a high and carries a far lower risk of overdose.
Also, consider that they initially took on their addiction because they had failed in their job to protect the sun and were trying to fix that. It's a variant of the idea of somebody taking any means necessary in order to reclaim their lost honor. Granted I don't think was portrayed well with Vona (who was unfortunately the main vampire we observed so far), but Elenda certainly seems set up for that direction.
Edit : And the fact that the Vampires want the Sun to sate their "addiction" sort of undercuts the empathy because it just sort of means they want the Ultimate High and they only got addicted in the first place to get the Sun back in the first place.
I don't think the sun really functions as an, 'Ultimate High,' in this instance. It's more along the lines of say dealing with an addiction by utilizing a substance that binds to the same neuroreceptors (preventing/reducing withdrawal symptoms) but doesn't cause a high and carries a far lower risk of overdose.
Also, consider that they initially took on their addiction because they had failed in their job to protect the sun and were trying to fix that. It's a variant of the idea of somebody taking any means necessary in order to reclaim their lost honor. Granted I don't think was portrayed well with Vona (who was unfortunately the main vampire we observed so far), but Elenda certainly seems set up for that direction.
Vona is an odd case. If you look back at her backstory, she actually likes being the bloodsucker that she currently is, and has been using the mission as an excuse to satisfy her bloodlust.
Hopefully Elenda helps to make the vampires more sympathetic in some way within the story.
Again, that's not the reason at all. Only the knights in the sun empire don't kill personally. They kill through dinosaur to show their mastery over their beast companions.
And I find that to be bullox, especially when Hualti shows up she always reminds us about "I dun kill."
Also, as Etherium Sage said, the creative team has stated in the past that they didn't want any one force in this conflict to be "good" or "bad". It's all supposed to be various shades of grey.
and I am saying that they failed in what they were going for, the Vampires were not grey.
after people show you that you're wrong by quoting or linking to articles etc.
If you have to link articles where the authors have to tell us that the conflict is supposed to be shades of grey instead of that coming across in the actual story that proves that they didn't get the shades of grey correct in the actual story.
You can empathize with the Vampires because they are addicted to blood and are trying to get over their addiction. I don’t know if you know anyone in your life who has struggled with addiction, but I empathize with the Vampires more than any other tribe.
Only my Mother, My father, my Step Father, My Step Brother. Effectively my entire family, but that doesn't mean WOTC didn't completely drop the ball on making the Vampires look morally grey.
Edit : And the fact that the Vampires want the Sun to sate their "addiction" sort of undercuts the empathy because it just sort of means they want the Ultimate High and they only got addicted in the first place to get the Sun back in the first place.
I think one thing that adds a touch of grey to the vampire's that may have been a little overlooked, is the blood fasting.
It's not something they do to have fun, or to get stronger.
It's excruciating, it drives them insane, they have to resist their most basic instincts until it completely overwhelms them and takes control.
Why do this?
MORALITY.
Most of the vampires here do not enjoy killing. (With the exception of Vona, but they've stressed not all are like her.) They don't kill innocents, they are strict about who the feed one only those guilty of a crime. If they don't have guilty people they don't eat.
Many of the vampires also regularly willingly bloodfast for as long as they can.
Granted we didn't see many stories from the vampire point of view, and Vona seemed to overshadow his, but we did get a story about a fasting vampire. There was also plenty of this info in the planeswalkers guide to Ixalan.
Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there.
They chose to undergo the Bloodfast for "piety." Also the people they are most likely to feed on are also people that THEY drove from their homes. Oh and of course there's the fact that they are all nobles who chose to become vampires. They chose this life they get no pity.
If they didn't intend the vamps to be bad guys they didn't do a particularly good job of showing it.
They chose to undergo the Bloodfast for "piety." Also the people they are most likely to feed on are also people that THEY drove from their homes. Oh and of course there's the fact that they are all nobles who chose to become vampires. They chose this life they get no pity.
If they didn't intend the vamps to be bad guys they didn't do a particularly good job of showing it.
I think each faction ultimately has its good guys and bad guys.
Vampires: Vona's clearly a bad guy. The heirophant we're introduced to in the middle of his blood fast craze (I forget his name) seems like a much more reasonable guy.
SUn Empire: Huatli seems like a decent person, if a bit fanatical. Don't really get trusting vibes from the Emporer tho.
Pirates: Vraska's clearly a good guy in this setting. Beckett Brass and Lannery Storm seem like reasonable authority figures at the very least (although reasonable is a bit of a stretch with Lannery, I guess). Angrath is a pretty bad dude, although somewhat sympathetic.
Merfolk: Tishana and Kopala seem like decent folk. Kumena, on the other hand...
Hopefully Elenda helps to make the vampires more sympathetic in some way within the story.
That would require Creative wanting to write about the vampires instead of intoducing us to more cabin boys and super cool swords that totally need to be written about.
The pro-Pirate (except Angrath) bias is super clear. Which I found appalling because before reading the fiction having nothing but the card text and art. I imagined the vampires as dignified anti-villains in a last chance quest to regain control over themselves, the Sun Empire as bullies with no qualms about pushing their weight around, the merfolk as river-elves with a cthonic underbelly and little tolerance left for invaders, and the pirates as violent but close-knit veterans at war and thievery. But it turns out Creative wants to sell the pirates as poor opressed victims of circumstance and the vampires as irredeemable monsters which just doesn't feel quite right to what's printed on the actual cards.
Angrath is my favorite character in this whole story after finding out his backstory though. I hope the guy wins and gets off this plane. Pretty sure he's not as nasty when he's back at home. Mardu colors then, maybe?
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Angrath is my favorite character in this whole story after finding out his backstory though. I hope the guy wins and gets off this plane. Pretty sure he's not as nasty when he's back at home. Mardu colors then, maybe?
You say that, but we don't know what has happened to his daughters in the time he's been trapped on Ixalan.
Angrath is my favorite character in this whole story after finding out his backstory though. I hope the guy wins and gets off this plane. Pretty sure he's not as nasty when he's back at home. Mardu colors then, maybe?
I don’t see any white in him. You can be red and black without being nasty. Lots of people are passionate and ambitious and aren’t nasty. Also, you can be a white character and be nasty.
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Yeah, I don't think he'll be mardu*. IMO it's more interesting that we finally get a sympathetic instead or the kill-happy crazy ones for a change.
*Not that I'm opposed to it, honestly I wish we had more 3color walkers already. Thus far we've only got Grixis (Bolas), Bant (Tamiyo) and Temur(Sarkhan). Plus the 5color Urza-Un-walker.
They've skipped the opportunities for a Naya walker at least twice now (Samut, who had a naya creature card and Huatli who's a member of a naya nation, and a bit of a stretch there's also Ajani, who's been all of those colors before[but it pretty settled into now]) in favor of yet more 2colors.
Angrath is my favorite character in this whole story after finding out his backstory though. I hope the guy wins and gets off this plane. Pretty sure he's not as nasty when he's back at home. Mardu colors then, maybe?
You say that, but we don't know what has happened to his daughters in the time he's been trapped on Ixalan.
:-(
Also, no, he doesn't have to be Mardu at all, but color identity is so tied to a character's nature these days instead of their actual magical abilities that I could easily see them giving the reunited family man a white color identity. Who knows, might even replace the black and make him Boros. Not saying I'm a fan of that per se, it's just something that I could easily see happening =/
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Now that Kumena has (probably) reached the city first and the Elder Dinosaurs have awoken, I half-expect him to go full on Colonel Musca and start wielding the Immortal Sun's power in a hail of destruction, cackling in Mark Hamill's voice.
"I came into this thread and made a post just to say that I am not interested in the current conversation at all."
Are people still harping about this hypocrisy thing, even though it's been debunked multiple times already?
"I don't have to kill you, but I will maim you and leave you defenseless for my Dinosaur to eat." was a thing that happened, and remember they are the good guys and not those dirty evil vampires.
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Wasn't the idea that there aren't supposed to be any "good guys" in this whole conflict? Just different groups with their own agenda for Orazca and The Immortal Sun?
Well we don't know anything about the Elder Dinosaurs. We know something woke up but in Storm the Vault there are giant mechs too. The Elders might be just be in this set because they already had a bunch in Ixalan and they wanted to save some cool stuff for this set. How do you follow up introducing dinosaurs? By making huge, super badass, ancient dinos.
That was supposed to be the idea, but thus far they never really gave us a good reason to empathize with the Vampires..as the closest thing to a good guy was first introduced being a blood frenzied Psycho..and Vona didn't help things with that, while we never really got an outright "badguy" among the Sun Empire. The Emperor comes off slimy, and Hulati's whole "I am going to leave to to die" things are never portrayed as evil persay.
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Again, that's not the reason at all. Only the knights in the sun empire don't kill personally. They kill through dinosaur to show their mastery over their beast companions.
I suppose this is one of those instances where someone just wants to hate something and desperately tries to find reasons to do so.
Also, as Etherium Sage said, the creative team has stated in the past that they didn't want any one force in this conflict to be "good" or "bad". It's all supposed to be various shades of grey. So basically you dislike an aspect of the story that creative themselves denied exists and is not supported at all by the material we have. You're literally making this up.
I'm the last guy to senselessly defend these Magic stories as I critisize them a lot myself and personally I don't even like the Ixalan arc as much as other arcs in the past, but this is just ridiculous. And not only that, it also gets annoying when it keeps being repeated every three pages after people show you that you're wrong by quoting or linking to articles etc.
They are, in no way, shape, or form supposed to be the bad guys. Just like how the Sun Empire isn’t supposed to be the good guys. After the bad guy Bolas defeated the good guys in the Gatewatch, creative wanted to have a fun story that didn’t have good guys or bad guys.
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Okay, so I can’t be critical? You criticizing my post adds so much to the conversation...
Seriously, we vote on who has control of the city, not the immortal sun. We don’t get to vote on who gets the immortal sun, who the winged beast is, or what happens to the most compelling characters in the story. I never said I wasn’t interested in the current conversation; I was just saying that this promo doesn’t appeal to me, and then stated the reasons why. Are we not supposed to be critical? Isn’t that the point of a thread that talks about the story?
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And I find that to be bullox, especially when Hualti shows up she always reminds us about "I dun kill."
and I am saying that they failed in what they were going for, the Vampires were not grey.
If you have to link articles where the authors have to tell us that the conflict is supposed to be shades of grey instead of that coming across in the actual story that proves that they didn't get the shades of grey correct in the actual story.
Only my Mother, My father, my Step Father, My Step Brother. Effectively my entire family, but that doesn't mean WOTC didn't completely drop the ball on making the Vampires look morally grey.
Edit : And the fact that the Vampires want the Sun to sate their "addiction" sort of undercuts the empathy because it just sort of means they want the Ultimate High and they only got addicted in the first place to get the Sun back in the first place.
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Shogun Saskia
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Now, perhaps the Immortal Sun was indeed theirs to begin with and it was stolen from them. That gives them a legitimate and understandable goal--it doesn't, however, make them "grey." Even if they are somehow suffering terribly for their vampirism, I see no reason in the least to sympathize with their plight, given that 1.) they asked for it and 2.) they expressly utilize it for the purpose of conquering and subjugating.
I don't think the sun really functions as an, 'Ultimate High,' in this instance. It's more along the lines of say dealing with an addiction by utilizing a substance that binds to the same neuroreceptors (preventing/reducing withdrawal symptoms) but doesn't cause a high and carries a far lower risk of overdose.
Also, consider that they initially took on their addiction because they had failed in their job to protect the sun and were trying to fix that. It's a variant of the idea of somebody taking any means necessary in order to reclaim their lost honor. Granted I don't think was portrayed well with Vona (who was unfortunately the main vampire we observed so far), but Elenda certainly seems set up for that direction.
Vona is an odd case. If you look back at her backstory, she actually likes being the bloodsucker that she currently is, and has been using the mission as an excuse to satisfy her bloodlust.
Hopefully Elenda helps to make the vampires more sympathetic in some way within the story.
I think one thing that adds a touch of grey to the vampire's that may have been a little overlooked, is the blood fasting.
It's not something they do to have fun, or to get stronger.
It's excruciating, it drives them insane, they have to resist their most basic instincts until it completely overwhelms them and takes control.
Why do this?
MORALITY.
Most of the vampires here do not enjoy killing. (With the exception of Vona, but they've stressed not all are like her.) They don't kill innocents, they are strict about who the feed one only those guilty of a crime. If they don't have guilty people they don't eat.
Many of the vampires also regularly willingly bloodfast for as long as they can.
Granted we didn't see many stories from the vampire point of view, and Vona seemed to overshadow his, but we did get a story about a fasting vampire. There was also plenty of this info in the planeswalkers guide to Ixalan.
Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there.
If they didn't intend the vamps to be bad guys they didn't do a particularly good job of showing it.
I think each faction ultimately has its good guys and bad guys.
Vampires: Vona's clearly a bad guy. The heirophant we're introduced to in the middle of his blood fast craze (I forget his name) seems like a much more reasonable guy.
SUn Empire: Huatli seems like a decent person, if a bit fanatical. Don't really get trusting vibes from the Emporer tho.
Pirates: Vraska's clearly a good guy in this setting. Beckett Brass and Lannery Storm seem like reasonable authority figures at the very least (although reasonable is a bit of a stretch with Lannery, I guess). Angrath is a pretty bad dude, although somewhat sympathetic.
Merfolk: Tishana and Kopala seem like decent folk. Kumena, on the other hand...
That would require Creative wanting to write about the vampires instead of intoducing us to more cabin boys and super cool swords that totally need to be written about.
The pro-Pirate (except Angrath) bias is super clear. Which I found appalling because before reading the fiction having nothing but the card text and art. I imagined the vampires as dignified anti-villains in a last chance quest to regain control over themselves, the Sun Empire as bullies with no qualms about pushing their weight around, the merfolk as river-elves with a cthonic underbelly and little tolerance left for invaders, and the pirates as violent but close-knit veterans at war and thievery. But it turns out Creative wants to sell the pirates as poor opressed victims of circumstance and the vampires as irredeemable monsters which just doesn't feel quite right to what's printed on the actual cards.
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You say that, but we don't know what has happened to his daughters in the time he's been trapped on Ixalan.
I don’t see any white in him. You can be red and black without being nasty. Lots of people are passionate and ambitious and aren’t nasty. Also, you can be a white character and be nasty.
JundBGR
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Delver U
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Control B
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Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
*Not that I'm opposed to it, honestly I wish we had more 3color walkers already. Thus far we've only got Grixis (Bolas), Bant (Tamiyo) and Temur(Sarkhan). Plus the 5color Urza-Un-walker.
They've skipped the opportunities for a Naya walker at least twice now (Samut, who had a naya creature card and Huatli who's a member of a naya nation, and a bit of a stretch there's also Ajani, who's been all of those colors before[but it pretty settled into now]) in favor of yet more 2colors.
:-(
Also, no, he doesn't have to be Mardu at all, but color identity is so tied to a character's nature these days instead of their actual magical abilities that I could easily see them giving the reunited family man a white color identity. Who knows, might even replace the black and make him Boros. Not saying I'm a fan of that per se, it's just something that I could easily see happening =/
Affinity
UW Control
Commander
Sidisi, Undead Vizier
Purphoros, God of the Forge
Dragonlord Ojutai
Gishath, Sun's Avatar
The Ur-Dragon