Wasn't Ugin in charge of powering the hedrons on Zendikar with colorless binding magic as well? It's fairly obvious by this point I'd say. Almost to the point of Emrakul being on Innistrad. Which incidentally, many people still resisted until her name was officially mentioned.
Like I'm not saaaaying it's Ugin, but, it's Ugin.
When you say "it's Ugin" you mean that Ugin is the one that is creating the binding that is holding whatever the big dragon roar thing in Orazca, right? Not that it is Ugin *in* Orazca, because that wouldn't fit at all. Just making sure I understand here - is the argument that Ugin created the binding and it is holding in a third super-mega-dragon-planeswalker like Ugin and Bolas? (and/or something that Bolas clearly knows about and wants to be freed?) Sorry if I'm being dense here!
As somebody who stayed true to the Emrakul Theory throughout the whole SoI block I kinda have to agree that Ugin is the most obvious and likely suspect for taking the Imortal Sun from the vamps and hiding it and/or sealing Ixalan. If the binder was a planeswalker that is.
Evidence?
1) we have had numerous accounts of a winged creature having had the Immortal Sun from 3 different accounts: Vampires, Merfolk and now from the QandA, the Sun Empire. Azor has never been highly associated with flight, whereas Ugin is.
2) Quetzicoatl is one of the few known Ancient American myth ‘tropes?’ that has been made its way to general knowledge and pop culture. Ugin has an appearance similar to Quetz and can fill that trope nicely, Azor? Nope
3) Ugin as a threat and tie to Bolas is more significant to the current storyline than Azor, who is only known to be a planeswalker. Now that the story has featured a big loss for the heroes, it needs to draw an unexpected win, the frustrating of Bolas’s plans for Ugin’s sealed toys.
3) the only reason people suspect Azor as a candidate is the superficial similarity between the Azorious crest and the Ixalan seal. Yet a seal reflective of the binding seal is also found among the Vampires, and bears little resemblance to the Azorious symbol. More strikingly, these symbols bear similarity to the Mayan Calendar. It is my belief that the seals were designed to merely reflect Ixalan’s ‘flavor’
4) we have no knowledge of Azor being annoyed with planeswalkers’ destructive interference upon various planes but Ugin’s opinion on the matter is quite blatant, yes he manipulates Planes too but I believe he thinks himself experienced, knowledgeable and cautious enough to meddle somewhat “for the greater good of the multiverse”
An enchantment preventing Walkers from entering or leaving the plane Easily (planeswalking with no destination) so as to protect the holy thingamajig sounds like something he might create, and if ‘walkers like Angrath harm the plane in their frustration? Oh well it’s just one plane, Ugin has already proven to view these things with a wider lens and ambiguous morality. Like Zendikar.
Ugin fits. Azor hardly does.
Just my thoughts.
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The problem with Ugin being the one who took off with the Sun is that it creates a question of time. How long ago did it happen as it had to have been 1,300+
OrzhovPlaneswalker: I find it interesting that people automatically assume that 'the winged creature' is Ugin. While it has been set up canonically that there are no dragons on Ixalan and as a result that they wouldn't just say 'dragon' (to me, the best point in favor of it being Ugin or another Dragon), I don't think that this is the most likely answer.
Considering that Saint Elenda was not vampirized until her return from the search for the Immortal Sun, and that we have something that is very likely to be described as a 'winged creature' connected with vampirism in general and in Ixalan in particular (the Bat-God Aclazotz), I am thinking that the one who stole the Immortal Sun is the Bat-God, and is the winged beast of the stories. Checking up on the myths involved, the Bat God is a Mayan god (apparently) named Camazotz. He is not the one who steals the sun in Aztec myth, but Quetzalcoatl does chase the thief, so...
As far as the Quetzal theory goes, I agree that Ugin has the necessary appearance (and is actually a good explanation for his appearance on his card). I will point out, though, that I believe that one of Quetzalcoatl's sobriquets was 'the Lawgiver'? If that doesn't fit Azor...
Anyway, I am unconvinced that setting up another Ravnica tie-in is all that important. The chances that Jace is heavily involved in Dominaria is very slim, and Ravnica is by far the most likely plane he will go to next. So why not?
Again, I want to clarify that I don't think that the Ugin theory is 'wrong'. I am offering alternatives that I think are not unlikely to prevent tunnel vision and the like. I would say that the chances Ugin is involved somehow is quite high. I'm just not sure that he's the only one.
OrzhovPlaneswalker: I find it interesting that people automatically assume that 'the winged creature' is Ugin. While it has been set up canonically that there are no dragons on Ixalan and as a result that they wouldn't just say 'dragon' (to me, the best point in favor of it being Ugin or another Dragon), I don't think that this is the most likely answer.
Considering that Saint Elenda was not vampirized until her return from the search for the Immortal Sun, and that we have something that is very likely to be described as a 'winged creature' connected with vampirism in general and in Ixalan in particular (the Bat-God Aclazotz), I am thinking that the one who stole the Immortal Sun is the Bat-God, and is the winged beast of the stories. Checking up on the myths involved, the Bat God is a Mayan god (apparently) named Camazotz. He is not the one who steals the sun in Aztec myth, but Quetzalcoatl does chase the thief, so...
As far as the Quetzal theory goes, I agree that Ugin has the necessary appearance (and is actually a good explanation for his appearance on his card). I will point out, though, that I believe that one of Quetzalcoatl's sobriquets was 'the Lawgiver'? If that doesn't fit Azor...
Anyway, I am unconvinced that setting up another Ravnica tie-in is all that important. The chances that Jace is heavily involved in Dominaria is very slim, and Ravnica is by far the most likely plane he will go to next. So why not?
Again, I want to clarify that I don't think that the Ugin theory is 'wrong'. I am offering alternatives that I think are not unlikely to prevent tunnel vision and the like. I would say that the chances Ugin is involved somehow is quite high. I'm just not sure that he's the only one.
If you look at the first post of this thread there is an image of Huatli. She is holding a banner with what is clearly a dragon. I'm not saying its Ugin... No really I'm not, I think that would be the boring path. But we also know that the average denizen of the plane doesn't know what a dragon is(see Dragonskull Summit) so there's something to this.
OrzhovPlaneswalker: I find it interesting that people automatically assume that 'the winged creature' is Ugin. While it has been set up canonically that there are no dragons on Ixalan and as a result that they wouldn't just say 'dragon' (to me, the best point in favor of it being Ugin or another Dragon), I don't think that this is the most likely answer.
Considering that Saint Elenda was not vampirized until her return from the search for the Immortal Sun, and that we have something that is very likely to be described as a 'winged creature' connected with vampirism in general and in Ixalan in particular (the Bat-God Aclazotz), I am thinking that the one who stole the Immortal Sun is the Bat-God, and is the winged beast of the stories. Checking up on the myths involved, the Bat God is a Mayan god (apparently) named Camazotz. He is not the one who steals the sun in Aztec myth, but Quetzalcoatl does chase the thief, so...
As far as the Quetzal theory goes, I agree that Ugin has the necessary appearance (and is actually a good explanation for his appearance on his card). I will point out, though, that I believe that one of Quetzalcoatl's sobriquets was 'the Lawgiver'? If that doesn't fit Azor...
Anyway, I am unconvinced that setting up another Ravnica tie-in is all that important. The chances that Jace is heavily involved in Dominaria is very slim, and Ravnica is by far the most likely plane he will go to next. So why not?
Again, I want to clarify that I don't think that the Ugin theory is 'wrong'. I am offering alternatives that I think are not unlikely to prevent tunnel vision and the like. I would say that the chances Ugin is involved somehow is quite high. I'm just not sure that he's the only one.
I actually agree with you on the subject that the winged thief of the Immortal Sun might not be a Planeswalker. My point was that if the thief Was a planeswalker, it’s more likely to be Ugin than Azor.
The Bat god is the most likely
non-planeswalker character to have taken the Sun yet he doesn’t seem the type of creature to give Merfolk warnings that the device is ‘too great and destructive for personal use’. Black doesn’t buy into such ambition-killing arguments, or at least not unless under very abnormal circumstances.
As for Jace not likely to be very active in Dominaria’s plot?
I think it would be a missed marketing opportunity to not highlight one of Magic’s most popular neowalkers in a block meant to celebrate and bridge old MtG with the new. His presence I think will be just as significant as the rest of the ‘Watch with the possible exception of Lilliana who is from there and may be more prominent.
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I know it's not going to happen but I would absolutely love it if Crucius was the mysterious winged creature.
He's not only a non ixalan native race, but considering he's likely been infused with a ton of etherium I'd reckon he would fit the bill of weird flying creature pretty well, while also being a planeswalker with a tie to artifacts like the immortal sun, and likely a blue white (if his max amount of colours is likely esper) mentality that would lead him to entrust the merfolk to protect it in a limited capacity.
I'd love it if we could find out Orazca is nothing more then a satellite or holster for the sun that just happens to be made of what was readily available to an articifer on a backwater plane like ixalan: Gold. The fact that it happens to attract pirates and adventures is just a neat afterthought.
Alot of holes in the theory especially when it comes to motive, but it'd just be really refreshing to have something unexpected once in a while....especially if it brings sphinxwalker into the mix
I know it's not going to happen but I would absolutely love it if Crucius was the mysterious winged creature.
He's not only a non ixalan native race, but considering he's likely been infused with a ton of etherium I'd reckon he would fit the bill of weird flying creature pretty well, while also being a planeswalker with a tie to artifacts like the immortal sun, and likely a blue white (if his max amount of colours is likely esper) mentality that would lead him to entrust the merfolk to protect it in a limited capacity.
I'd love it if we could find out Orazca is nothing more then a satellite or holster for the sun that just happens to be made of what was readily available to an articifer on a backwater plane like ixalan: Gold. The fact that it happens to attract pirates and adventures is just a neat afterthought.
Alot of holes in the theory especially when it comes to motive, but it'd just be really refreshing to have something unexpected once in a while....especially if it brings sphinxwalker into the mix
As someone who likes artifacts and Alara, Crucius would get much excitement from me.
That being said, I think it's highly unlikely he'd show up here. I reckon if he ever enters the story proper, it'd be in a Return to Alara set, especially since Miss Breya has re-discovered the Etherium manufacturing process.
History and legends change as more and more people tell their stories, just look at our own world, everyone Jesus thinks is a white man with beautiful long hair, when according to history, he would look more like an Arabian.
This winged beast could easily be a human/humanoid creature, it could also not even exist (but i doubt it doesn't exist given so many different cultures talking about it) but anyway, it could be Ugin? sure but given the description it could be almost any Dragon in the multiverse, and since the Winged Beast existed pre mending, it could be any Oldwalker given the fact all of them were shapeshifters.
Not only have we not seen any Sphinxes at all thus far on Ixalan, but this one looks important enough that I think he's the "winged beast" that took the Immortal Sun from Torrezon and carried it to the Ixalan continent.
Not only have we not seen any Sphinxes at all thus far on Ixalan, but this one looks important enough that I think he's the "winged beast" that took the Immortal Sun from Torrezon and carried it to the Ixalan continent.
I was about to post it. I didn't expect a sphinx to be THE winged creature.
I hope he's a PW! I mean, I don't know any sphinx matching any Mesoamerican mythology.
Would Jace get a traumatic experience seeing a sphinx after he gets all memory back, or would plot armor conveniently skip that part of his lost memory?
Not only have we not seen any Sphinxes at all thus far on Ixalan, but this one looks important enough that I think he's the "winged beast" that took the Immortal Sun from Torrezon and carried it to the Ixalan continent.
I was about to post it. I didn't expect a sphinx to be THE winged creature. I hope he's a PW!
Would Jace get a traumatic experience seeing a sphinx after he gets all memory back, or would plot armor conveniently skip that part of his lost memory?
And nice beard...
Even though I see no Etherium on him, I guess the Crucius dream isn't dead yet.
Alternatively, maybe Azor was a Sphinx all along, and this is him.
Or, it could be someone we've never even heard of before.
Azor is seemingly VERY likely right now, but note that this does not rule out Ugin, there's a lot of other evidence that points to him, and the Last Guardian implies more than one.
There was a clue to this in the first Huatli story, the emperor mentions a flying panther.
Reading back through posts, a both and idea sprouted up to me.
Binding Magic is indeed Ugin's specialty, and as many have pointed out, plus borrowing a "narrative conservation of detail" concept, Ugin would make a lot of sense to be involved in Ixalan.
Azor was also a walker, who founded the Azorius Senate and believed in using binding magic to keep order and rule of law.
We know Azor to be around 10,000+ Ravnican years old at least.
We know Ugin is so old he has transcended the concept of magic as a color.
My conjecture is, what if Ugin trained Azor in binding magic, and Azor under Ugin's suggestion/direction intervened on Ixalan with the Immortal Sun, only to end up trapping himself in Orazca?
Reading back through posts, a both and idea sprouted up to me.
Binding Magic is indeed Ugin's specialty, and as many have pointed out, plus borrowing a "narrative conservation of detail" concept, Ugin would make a lot of sense to be involved in Ixalan.
Azor was also a walker, who founded the Azorius Senate and believed in using binding magic to keep order and rule of law.
We know Azor to be around 10,000+ Ravnican years old at least.
We know Ugin is so old he has transcended the concept of magic as a color.
My conjecture is, what if Ugin trained Azor in binding magic, and Azor under Ugin's suggestion/direction intervened on Ixalan with the Immortal Sun, only to end up trapping himself in Orazca?
Possibly, but I'm thinking in the future with this.
If this Sphinx is Azor, it's basically guaranteed that he'll play a role in Return to Return to Ravnica, and since the original Guildpact was basically his design, he can possibly change the current one. I think everyone would benefit at this point if the Living Guildpact was made null and void, and something more airtight was put in its place.
Well, we know that there are Azorius Sphyinxs but none of them have beards. His head looks like the head of a Dwarf. Could we get a Red, White, and Blue Dwarf Sphyinx?
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I was thinking about the possibility of Azor being a sphinx walker last night and today I see this. I really hope it turns out to be him. I've been waiting for a sphinx walker forever.
I'd like to point out however that we are not sure 100% that Azor was a walker. I remember saying that he was based on the ending of the Secretist but someone rightfuly corrected me that he might have been brought to the plane during the pre-guildpact wars. Also we dont know if he is a sphinx. It would fit perfectly though.
Well, we know that there are Azorius Sphyinxs but none of them have beards. His head looks like the head of a Dwarf. Could we get a Red, White, and Blue Dwarf Sphyinx?
First, the Dwarf part makes no sense to me.
Second, most of the Ravnican species are not originally native to the plane, and Azor himself wasn't native either. As such, we can't judge what he looked like based on what the Ravnican Sphinxes look like now.
He looks a lot like a Dwarf. Is a Dwarf Sphyinx really that much stranger than a plant zombie or cat monk?
Yes, actually.
This.
feels bad knowing we're getting a sphinx walker before an angel walker.
Considering Sphinxes are true-blue biological creatures that aren't spawned from pure mana, while Angels are mana beings (and we've had a probable Sphinx walker in Crucius prior to this, but he just never got a card), this shouldn't come as a surprise.
Karn and Ob Nixilis both got away with it because of loopholes.
That would be cool to have Azor return. Would explain the symbol in the binding looking like Azorius. So many hints at close to another return to Ravnica.
That would be cool to have Azor return. Would explain the symbol in the binding looking like Azorius. So many hints at close to another return to Ravnica.
Honestly, if Rivals of Ixalan ends up being the return of arguably the most important Ravnica parun (in addition to the other Ravnica story elements already in play), you'd think at this point that Ravnica was more important than Dominaria.
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When you say "it's Ugin" you mean that Ugin is the one that is creating the binding that is holding whatever the big dragon roar thing in Orazca, right? Not that it is Ugin *in* Orazca, because that wouldn't fit at all. Just making sure I understand here - is the argument that Ugin created the binding and it is holding in a third super-mega-dragon-planeswalker like Ugin and Bolas? (and/or something that Bolas clearly knows about and wants to be freed?) Sorry if I'm being dense here!
Evidence?
1) we have had numerous accounts of a winged creature having had the Immortal Sun from 3 different accounts: Vampires, Merfolk and now from the QandA, the Sun Empire. Azor has never been highly associated with flight, whereas Ugin is.
2) Quetzicoatl is one of the few known Ancient American myth ‘tropes?’ that has been made its way to general knowledge and pop culture. Ugin has an appearance similar to Quetz and can fill that trope nicely, Azor? Nope
3) Ugin as a threat and tie to Bolas is more significant to the current storyline than Azor, who is only known to be a planeswalker. Now that the story has featured a big loss for the heroes, it needs to draw an unexpected win, the frustrating of Bolas’s plans for Ugin’s sealed toys.
3) the only reason people suspect Azor as a candidate is the superficial similarity between the Azorious crest and the Ixalan seal. Yet a seal reflective of the binding seal is also found among the Vampires, and bears little resemblance to the Azorious symbol. More strikingly, these symbols bear similarity to the Mayan Calendar. It is my belief that the seals were designed to merely reflect Ixalan’s ‘flavor’
4) we have no knowledge of Azor being annoyed with planeswalkers’ destructive interference upon various planes but Ugin’s opinion on the matter is quite blatant, yes he manipulates Planes too but I believe he thinks himself experienced, knowledgeable and cautious enough to meddle somewhat “for the greater good of the multiverse”
An enchantment preventing Walkers from entering or leaving the plane Easily (planeswalking with no destination) so as to protect the holy thingamajig sounds like something he might create, and if ‘walkers like Angrath harm the plane in their frustration? Oh well it’s just one plane, Ugin has already proven to view these things with a wider lens and ambiguous morality. Like Zendikar.
Ugin fits. Azor hardly does.
Just my thoughts.
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Considering that Saint Elenda was not vampirized until her return from the search for the Immortal Sun, and that we have something that is very likely to be described as a 'winged creature' connected with vampirism in general and in Ixalan in particular (the Bat-God Aclazotz), I am thinking that the one who stole the Immortal Sun is the Bat-God, and is the winged beast of the stories. Checking up on the myths involved, the Bat God is a Mayan god (apparently) named Camazotz. He is not the one who steals the sun in Aztec myth, but Quetzalcoatl does chase the thief, so...
As far as the Quetzal theory goes, I agree that Ugin has the necessary appearance (and is actually a good explanation for his appearance on his card). I will point out, though, that I believe that one of Quetzalcoatl's sobriquets was 'the Lawgiver'? If that doesn't fit Azor...
Anyway, I am unconvinced that setting up another Ravnica tie-in is all that important. The chances that Jace is heavily involved in Dominaria is very slim, and Ravnica is by far the most likely plane he will go to next. So why not?
Again, I want to clarify that I don't think that the Ugin theory is 'wrong'. I am offering alternatives that I think are not unlikely to prevent tunnel vision and the like. I would say that the chances Ugin is involved somehow is quite high. I'm just not sure that he's the only one.
If you look at the first post of this thread there is an image of Huatli. She is holding a banner with what is clearly a dragon. I'm not saying its Ugin... No really I'm not, I think that would be the boring path. But we also know that the average denizen of the plane doesn't know what a dragon is(see Dragonskull Summit) so there's something to this.
I actually agree with you on the subject that the winged thief of the Immortal Sun might not be a Planeswalker. My point was that if the thief Was a planeswalker, it’s more likely to be Ugin than Azor.
The Bat god is the most likely
non-planeswalker character to have taken the Sun yet he doesn’t seem the type of creature to give Merfolk warnings that the device is ‘too great and destructive for personal use’. Black doesn’t buy into such ambition-killing arguments, or at least not unless under very abnormal circumstances.
As for Jace not likely to be very active in Dominaria’s plot?
I think it would be a missed marketing opportunity to not highlight one of Magic’s most popular neowalkers in a block meant to celebrate and bridge old MtG with the new. His presence I think will be just as significant as the rest of the ‘Watch with the possible exception of Lilliana who is from there and may be more prominent.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
He's not only a non ixalan native race, but considering he's likely been infused with a ton of etherium I'd reckon he would fit the bill of weird flying creature pretty well, while also being a planeswalker with a tie to artifacts like the immortal sun, and likely a blue white (if his max amount of colours is likely esper) mentality that would lead him to entrust the merfolk to protect it in a limited capacity.
I'd love it if we could find out Orazca is nothing more then a satellite or holster for the sun that just happens to be made of what was readily available to an articifer on a backwater plane like ixalan: Gold. The fact that it happens to attract pirates and adventures is just a neat afterthought.
Alot of holes in the theory especially when it comes to motive, but it'd just be really refreshing to have something unexpected once in a while....especially if it brings sphinxwalker into the mix
As someone who likes artifacts and Alara, Crucius would get much excitement from me.
That being said, I think it's highly unlikely he'd show up here. I reckon if he ever enters the story proper, it'd be in a Return to Alara set, especially since Miss Breya has re-discovered the Etherium manufacturing process.
This winged beast could easily be a human/humanoid creature, it could also not even exist (but i doubt it doesn't exist given so many different cultures talking about it) but anyway, it could be Ugin? sure but given the description it could be almost any Dragon in the multiverse, and since the Winged Beast existed pre mending, it could be any Oldwalker given the fact all of them were shapeshifters.
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Not only have we not seen any Sphinxes at all thus far on Ixalan, but this one looks important enough that I think he's the "winged beast" that took the Immortal Sun from Torrezon and carried it to the Ixalan continent.
I was about to post it. I didn't expect a sphinx to be THE winged creature.
I hope he's a PW! I mean, I don't know any sphinx matching any Mesoamerican mythology.
Would Jace get a traumatic experience seeing a sphinx after he gets all memory back, or would plot armor conveniently skip that part of his lost memory?
And nice beard...
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Even though I see no Etherium on him, I guess the Crucius dream isn't dead yet.
Alternatively, maybe Azor was a Sphinx all along, and this is him.
Or, it could be someone we've never even heard of before.
There was a clue to this in the first Huatli story, the emperor mentions a flying panther.
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Possibly, but I'm thinking in the future with this.
If this Sphinx is Azor, it's basically guaranteed that he'll play a role in Return to Return to Ravnica, and since the original Guildpact was basically his design, he can possibly change the current one. I think everyone would benefit at this point if the Living Guildpact was made null and void, and something more airtight was put in its place.
Told ya about the Binding symbol....
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I'd like to point out however that we are not sure 100% that Azor was a walker. I remember saying that he was based on the ending of the Secretist but someone rightfuly corrected me that he might have been brought to the plane during the pre-guildpact wars. Also we dont know if he is a sphinx. It would fit perfectly though.
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First, the Dwarf part makes no sense to me.
Second, most of the Ravnican species are not originally native to the plane, and Azor himself wasn't native either. As such, we can't judge what he looked like based on what the Ravnican Sphinxes look like now.
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Yes, actually.
This.
feels bad knowing we're getting a sphinx walker before an angel walker.
Art student, EDH lover and a strong believer that Delver has the best design in all of MTG.
Considering Sphinxes are true-blue biological creatures that aren't spawned from pure mana, while Angels are mana beings (and we've had a probable Sphinx walker in Crucius prior to this, but he just never got a card), this shouldn't come as a surprise.
Karn and Ob Nixilis both got away with it because of loopholes.
Honestly, if Rivals of Ixalan ends up being the return of arguably the most important Ravnica parun (in addition to the other Ravnica story elements already in play), you'd think at this point that Ravnica was more important than Dominaria.