I don't think Jace will completely jump ship to wanting her gone but he's not going to be her whipping boy or pining for her anymore.
Correct
However if Chandra tells jace what she did while they were fighting bolas then he probably will
(Excluding the telling them to retreat part she betrayed them which is not to surprising.)
Eh, he meets up with Gideon first (who appears to be willing to still work with her from what we know so far) and can literally peer into the memories of those in the group to piece together what events most likely happened. Also, he knows that Chandra has a tendency to extremes and exaggeration.
Can't wait for the little telepathic half-Gorgons to be running around the office of the guildpact, accidentally turning cats to stone and just generally driving Lavinia mad.
Can't wait for the little telepathic half-Gorgons to be running around the office of the guildpact, accidentally turning cats to stone and just generally driving Lavinia mad.
This could be the greatest part of the good Ship Vrace.
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
For those of you who are vilifying Liliana--and those of us who 'defend' her actions on Amonkhet--please realize something.
She was correct. The Gatewatch didn't have what it takes to take down Bolas. She has also always been the most pragmatic of the Gatewatch. Her very pragmatism is what gets her into trouble. No longer an Oldwalker? Sell your soul 4 times over to regain youth and apparent immortality. Need to get out of that? Pick up this artifact that is powerful and don't bother to read the warnings that come after the spell. </Dr. Strange> Her entire sparking was because she tried to seize on the most efficient way to save her brother.
So first of all, her actions on Amonkhet were in keeping with her character. (I doubt many people contest this, but I wanted to put that up first.)
Now is she a hero? In the proper sense, no. She is far too self-absorbed for that. But, and this is a paraphrase from color pie articles, Black is the brutally honest friend. Black is the one who will tell you what you need to hear when everyone else is too afraid/ashamed/distracted/whatever to say it. And the Gatewatch needs the Black perspective. Do they have to get it from Liliana? No, not really. But that was Liliana's contribution to the Gatewatch on Amonkhet: the voice of reason. The heroes failed because they didn't listen to the token evil teammate?
The Gatewatch's proper response would be, 'Well, why did you come here, Ms. Pragmatism, if you didn't think we could win?' She has two possible responses: Jace and Razaketh. Of the two, I believe her response would be Razaketh. Jace is the 'better' reason, and no, I don't think she understands love per se, but she is in the realm of 'don't mess with MY stuff', and she includes Jace in that. But Liliana probably couldn't admit to the Gatewatch that Jace (or anyone else in the group) is important enough for her to decide against her own best interests, primary among them survival.
So she would probably be pretty blunt about it. "I needed to go to Amonkhet anyway to kill Demon #3 and while direct combat with Nicol Bolas is suicide, trying to find Tezzeret again would probably be good for my peace of mind." Can the Gatewatch accept that not every member is equally engaged in the derring-do? Liliana is a good test of that.
Something else to remember also was that Liliana, right before the 'betrayal', had received an object lesson in the usesfulness of others. She literally could not have killed Razaketh on her own. So do I believe that Liliana actually had something approaching a moral decision to make at the time of 'betrayal'? Yes. Yes, I do.
And yes, I put 'betrayal' in quotes. Because nothing has happened yet regarding said betrayal. If, indeed, Liliana has really betrayed them. If you look at the events of Hour of Devastation from a consequentialist ethical view--which would be the closest view that Liliana would hold--Liliana was the only one to get out more or less physically intact. Jace was mindraped and stranded on Ixalan due to the machinations of another dragon, Chandra was having to hold her ribcage together, Nissa was attacked by the very land she uses, and Gideon found his invulnerability pierced and wounded. Now, did she tell Bolas that she'd wait for him? Sure she did. But that's her pragmatism again. I'm pretty sure she told those 4 demons that she'd obey them, too, and ask them how that worked out for them.
Also, again, let us compare Vraska and Liliana from a consequentialist ethical position. (That is, judge them by the effects their actions have.) Liliana probably has a higher kill count, but then she's also much older. Of the two of them, which of them have materially helped Nicol Bolas's plans? Most recently, Vraska. It is possible that Liliana's presence was needed for the Hours, given Razaketh's role, but I highly doubt it. Vraska willingly signed up to help Nicol Bolas--without much research as to consequences--and is now set up as a deep-cover sleeper set to betray him. But Nicol Bolas also has the Immortal Sun. What has Liliana done to actually help Bolas? Possibly something in exchange for Bolas's brokerage of her demonic deals, but that to me is unknown. In any event, which of the two is worse is quite arguable, Vraska's positive actions and interactions with Jace aside.
The problem some people have with Liliana being on the team is that there was no reason to believe that she'd stick to her oath.
She did help a great deal on Innistrad, but they had an inkling of the kind of person she was, and under "normal" circumstances, there would be no reason to ask her to join.
However, because there was such a huge shortage of monoblack planeswalkers, the options of which monoblack walkers to toss into the Gatewatch were limited. That and Liliana being one of the Origins 5 made her the obvious choice. Liliana's own justification for joining up was understandable though, as she couldn't go it alone, and her encounter with Razaketh pretty much validated her decision.
For the record, I don't mind Liliana being in the Gatewatch, and I think it could be a great vehicle for her own character growth.
She was correct. The Gatewatch didn't have what it takes to take down Bolas.
And yet she did nothing to dissuade them of this fact until Bolas himself showed up, because she is using the Gatewatch to help her murder her little demons and get free of the Chain Veil.
, Black is the brutally honest friend
Except that she is NOT their friend, she is the kid who pretends to be your friend because you had the shiny new Super Nintendo.
realm of 'don't mess with MY stuff', and she includes Jace in that.
Because Jace is a useful Toy.
She literally could not have killed Razaketh on her own.
And that is the only reason she is in the Gatewatch.
And yes, I put 'betrayal' in quotes. Because nothing has happened yet regarding said betrayal.
That is because nothing WILL happen of it, she will get forgiven because "we need a mono black planeswalker in the gatewatch."
However, because there was such a huge shortage of monoblack planeswalkers, the options of which monoblack walkers to toss into the Gatewatch were limited. That and Liliana being one of the Origins 5 made her the obvious choice. Liliana's own justification for joining up was understandable though, as she couldn't go it alone, and her encounter with Razaketh pretty much validated her decision.
They chose the Origin's five based on who would be the "core" of the Gatewatch, not the other way around, Liliana was chosen because she was the only mono-black planeswalker with a spark at the time. Sorin had gone to Orzhov, Vraska was Golgari, and Ob didn't have his spark.
I personally do mind her being in the Gatewatch because she was clearly written as a amoral badguy when she was first introduced, has always been portrayed that way because WOTC has only ever broken the "black part of the pie is evil" a whole Twice in 25 years.
They chose the Origin's five based on who would be the "core" of the Gatewatch, not the other way around, Liliana was chosen because she was the only mono-black planeswalker with a spark at the time. Sorin had gone to Orzhov, Vraska was Golgari, and Ob didn't have his spark.
unknownwarrior33 asked: Instead of trying to convince us that Lilliana isn't so bad, why not just admit that she's in the Gatewatch because there was no other Black Planeswalker you could use? You already said the same about Nissa.
A: Liliana is the third most popular planeswalker. We had other options. We wanted to use her.
izzet-always-r-versus-u asked: So if Jace is the most popular planeswalker (overall, not just in the Gatewatch), and Chandra is the second-most popular, who's the third-most popular?
arkbot asked: "Yes. Top three, in order, based on market research, are Jace, Chandra and Liliana." Were these three the most popular preceeding Origins, leading to the rotation of white and green walkers? Or could their popularity be partially because they're the remaining members of the Lorwyn Five?
A:Those three having been leading the polls for years, starting long before the formation of the Gatewatch.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
You talk like "She ranks high in the polls" is a good reason to take an antagonist character and try to stuff her into a heroic role, and it doesn't negate my point about Liliana being the only Mono Black Planeswalker in existence at the time they were coming up with the gate watch.
We had other options. We wanted to use her.
What? That is a straight up Lie, there is ONE OTHER mono black planeswalker in existence right now and he is just as outright Evil as Liliana is. What other options are there? The Planar Chaos Gideon that has been sitting on Dominaria?
I personally do mind her being in the Gatewatch because she was clearly written as a amoral badguy when she was first introduced, has always been portrayed that way because WOTC has only ever broken the "black part of the pie is evil" a whole Twice in 25 years.
Toshiro Umezawa, Drana, Yahenni, Maralen and (if you want to stretch it) mono-black!Sorin.
Those are the only other mono-black characters I remember in "heroic" roles, so I agree that mono-black has had a bad rap for much of its existence. For a color commonly associated with death, greed and destruction, it's to be expected.
I personally do mind her being in the Gatewatch because she was clearly written as a amoral badguy when she was first introduced, has always been portrayed that way because WOTC has only ever broken the "black part of the pie is evil" a whole Twice in 25 years.
Toshiro Umezawa, Drana, Yahenni and (if you want to stretch it) mono-black!Sorin.
Those are the only other mono-black characters I remember in "heroic" roles, so I agree that mono-black has had a bad rap for much of its existence. For a color commonly associated with death, greed and destruction, it's to be expected.
I forgot about Yahenni so 3, Toshiro Umezawa, Chainer and Yahenni that are 3 characters that are fully heroic (minus The Mirari driving Chainer insane) Drana doesn't count because previous to the Eldrazi getting freed the Blood Lords were evil.
Edit : Sorin does not count either, he went to Orzhov when they revealed "he may be a vampire but he is really a nice guy..he made Avacyn and all."
I personally do mind her being in the Gatewatch because she was clearly written as a amoral badguy when she was first introduced, has always been portrayed that way because WOTC has only ever broken the "black part of the pie is evil" a whole Twice in 25 years.
Toshiro Umezawa, Drana, Yahenni and (if you want to stretch it) mono-black!Sorin.
Those are the only other mono-black characters I remember in "heroic" roles, so I agree that mono-black has had a bad rap for much of its existence. For a color commonly associated with death, greed and destruction, it's to be expected.
I forgot about Yahenni so 3, Toshiro Umezawa, Chainer and Yahenni that are 3 characters that are fully heroic (minus The Mirari driving Chainer insane) Drana doesn't count because previous to the Eldrazi getting freed the Blood Lords were evil.
Edit : Sorin does not count either, he went to Orzhov when they revealed "he may be a vampire but he is really a nice guy..he made Avacyn and all."
That's why I put heroic in quotes. I know that Drana and Sorin weren't true heroes.
Maralen was because she opposed Oona and worked to end the Great Aurora nonsense for good, and she even went as far as to tell her peeps to off her if she ever became like Oona.
You talk like "She ranks high in the polls" is a good reason to take an antagonist character and try to stuff her into a heroic role, and it doesn't negate my point about Liliana being the only Mono Black Planeswalker in existence at the time they were coming up with the gate watch.
We had other options. We wanted to use her.
What? That is a straight up Lie, there is ONE OTHER mono black planeswalker in existence right now and he is just as outright Evil as Liliana is. What other options are there? The Planar Chaos Gideon that has been sitting on Dominaria?
They had Sorin, who until Tarkir was only suppose to be white/black on Innistrad;
But even though Sorin has spent much of the last few millennia exploring the Multiverse on his own whims, Sorin still feels the tug of—something—when he considers his home plane. It's not exactly responsibility. It's not exactly a sense of community. Those terms tend to become meaningless to a millennia-old creature capable of traipsing at will between the planes of existence. But when he sees what's become of his first plane without his creation Avacyn, a feeling rises in Sorin that is akin to regret, which bears a family resemblance to something we might call duty.
Sorin is white-black in this set, representing this sense of conflicted obligation. Sorin is still a vampire, and still would be regarded as a monster to any Innistrad human. He still pursues his own ends without a care for the ephemeral institutions of any world or society. But when he's here on Innistrad, he feels the weight of the pain and bloodshed his family has caused, and he still stands by his ages-old decision to aid humanity. He's a privileged lord of Innistrad, but his position of power is bounded by a certain unwillingness. He refuses to let the shadows overwhelm the people of this world, to leave his home without protection from his own kind.
Note I also said nothing on the subject of if Liliana was a good choice or not, just that she was picked cause she was the most popular walker and according to Maro they had other choice. But honestly you seem to rather take your thoughts as fact/canon, so you do you I guess.
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Note I also said nothing on the subject of if Liliana was a good choice or not, just that she was picked cause she was the most popular walker and according to Maro they had other choice. But honestly you seem to rather take your thoughts as fact/canon, so you do you I guess.
You are taking Maro at his word, I frankly do not take anyone at WOTC at their word. You want to fine, but don't sit there and talk about "my facts" when the people you are quoting also said "People Will love Promo Tokens!" and "The two block cycle will be great guys!" and "We don't need core sets."
Not really, since the card's art (because of the faerie she's interacting with) and flavour text pretty clearly shows that it's the Oona avatar.
If I recall, and I don't recall a whole lot of that block cause I didn't like the books of it in one of the first two at some point Maralen made a "deal" with the Clique so they served her..but she didn't actually reveal who she was until the latter half of the block? So the Maralen card would have been when she was still hiding who she was.
ryuplaneswalker: If you don't take anyone at WotC at their word, then you have no basis to argue that Black should be anything but evil people. You cannot cite color pie or, indeed, anything else MaRo has stated to support your arguments. You are stating that, over and above that certain WotC statements are 'wrong' or 'lies', that WotC is not a truth-telling thing. As such, you cannot believe that and also accept anything it says as truth.
Unless your argument is, 'I don't take anyone at WotC at their word unless they state what I believe.'?
And I just wanted to reply to this because the rest falls into the 'you believe your headcanon over canon' category.
And yes, I put 'betrayal' in quotes. Because nothing has happened yet regarding said betrayal.
That is because nothing WILL happen of it, she will get forgiven because "we need a mono black planeswalker in the gatewatch."
You clearly didn't understand me. I do not believe Liliana leaving during the battle after Jace left and after Nicol Bolas's breaking speech was a betrayal of the Gatewatch. If that is true, then Chandra and Nissa leaving are also betrayals of the Gatewatch.
What I am saying is that Nicol Bolas's speech tried to reassert control of Liliana for future use. Until we see something of Liliana helping Nicol Bolas on the order of, say, picking up a major artifact for use in his schemes, Liliana will not have betrayed the Gatewatch at all. Unless, again, you want to argue that Chandra and Nissa also betrayed the Gatewatch.
Can we um, tone down the vitriol here?
Yes, there are conflicts with Liliana being a member of the Gatewatch, and yes I imagine that there was some fallout when she left without much of a fight...
However,
She is also a powerful planeswalker and (while maybe these are my own thoughts being Abzan and all) that power can serve noble purposes if channeled correctly. I am enough of a realist to understand that sometimes you have to use all the tools in your belt, including those deemed nasty, dark, but powerful.
Also, all of the Gatewatch planeswalkers bring conflict to the group if the team's purposes end up being too radically different from their own philosophies and values.
Chandra values freedom and choice. She's not going to join causes that subjugates people in their creative, personal expressions, particularly those that don't jeopardize the safety and freedoms other people- much.
Nissa values the environment and preserving natural balance, whatever that means for the plane in question. It is unlikely she would join in causes where she feels the net harm and damage to the planar ecology is greater than the benefits to such environment and ecology.
Gideon cares about doing that which he feels is 'just' and 'right'. This is perhaps one of the most flexible standards as it is not entirely clear what is included in these principles. We know that he prefers to work within the confines of the law if possible and that he cares about both individuals and societies as a whole. Where he chooses to err in these may depend on Creative.
Jace's own ideology is also fairly flexible. He is concerned with the 'big picture', personal responsibilities, Learning, and those with whom he's formed an alliance with. Threats to either the Multiverse, Ravnica, the Gatewatch, or learning opportunities are likely to motivate him the most. He is also motivated to learn as much as he can about subjects that interest him.
Lilliana is the easiest to figure out. If it helps or benefits Liliana in some way, particularly with her remaining demons or controlling the Veil then she'll do it, especially if the benefits outweigh the costs to her. She has also no problem trying to gain psychological advantages over other Gatewatch members, particularly if it allows her to better control or manipulate them to better meet her own agenda.
Ajani- not entirely sure. He seems to be a mixture of both Gideon's and Nissa's values, as he cares about almost everyone including nature, and dislikes abuses of power and ability.
I think we will see more conflict as more members join and as new objectives arise that may conflict with individual members. The Eldrazi and Bolas are pretty universal Threats to most value and ideological systems. The biggest sticking point I see in the future is the question as to when should the Gatewatch interfere and when should they not.
Eh, he meets up with Gideon first (who appears to be willing to still work with her from what we know so far) and can literally peer into the memories of those in the group to piece together what events most likely happened. Also, he knows that Chandra has a tendency to extremes and exaggeration.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Can't wait for the little telepathic half-Gorgons to be running around the office of the guildpact, accidentally turning cats to stone and just generally driving Lavinia mad.
This could be the greatest part of the good Ship Vrace.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
I'm partial to Jaceka. (To close to Jeska?)
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
Unless something horrible happens to Vraska (and shame to anyone who hopes for that), the Sultai ship is seaworthy.
That be a huge step down from Vraska.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
She was correct. The Gatewatch didn't have what it takes to take down Bolas. She has also always been the most pragmatic of the Gatewatch. Her very pragmatism is what gets her into trouble. No longer an Oldwalker? Sell your soul 4 times over to regain youth and apparent immortality. Need to get out of that? Pick up this artifact that is powerful and don't bother to read the warnings that come after the spell. </Dr. Strange> Her entire sparking was because she tried to seize on the most efficient way to save her brother.
So first of all, her actions on Amonkhet were in keeping with her character. (I doubt many people contest this, but I wanted to put that up first.)
Now is she a hero? In the proper sense, no. She is far too self-absorbed for that. But, and this is a paraphrase from color pie articles, Black is the brutally honest friend. Black is the one who will tell you what you need to hear when everyone else is too afraid/ashamed/distracted/whatever to say it. And the Gatewatch needs the Black perspective. Do they have to get it from Liliana? No, not really. But that was Liliana's contribution to the Gatewatch on Amonkhet: the voice of reason. The heroes failed because they didn't listen to the token evil teammate?
The Gatewatch's proper response would be, 'Well, why did you come here, Ms. Pragmatism, if you didn't think we could win?' She has two possible responses: Jace and Razaketh. Of the two, I believe her response would be Razaketh. Jace is the 'better' reason, and no, I don't think she understands love per se, but she is in the realm of 'don't mess with MY stuff', and she includes Jace in that. But Liliana probably couldn't admit to the Gatewatch that Jace (or anyone else in the group) is important enough for her to decide against her own best interests, primary among them survival.
So she would probably be pretty blunt about it. "I needed to go to Amonkhet anyway to kill Demon #3 and while direct combat with Nicol Bolas is suicide, trying to find Tezzeret again would probably be good for my peace of mind." Can the Gatewatch accept that not every member is equally engaged in the derring-do? Liliana is a good test of that.
Something else to remember also was that Liliana, right before the 'betrayal', had received an object lesson in the usesfulness of others. She literally could not have killed Razaketh on her own. So do I believe that Liliana actually had something approaching a moral decision to make at the time of 'betrayal'? Yes. Yes, I do.
And yes, I put 'betrayal' in quotes. Because nothing has happened yet regarding said betrayal. If, indeed, Liliana has really betrayed them. If you look at the events of Hour of Devastation from a consequentialist ethical view--which would be the closest view that Liliana would hold--Liliana was the only one to get out more or less physically intact. Jace was mindraped and stranded on Ixalan due to the machinations of another dragon, Chandra was having to hold her ribcage together, Nissa was attacked by the very land she uses, and Gideon found his invulnerability pierced and wounded. Now, did she tell Bolas that she'd wait for him? Sure she did. But that's her pragmatism again. I'm pretty sure she told those 4 demons that she'd obey them, too, and ask them how that worked out for them.
Also, again, let us compare Vraska and Liliana from a consequentialist ethical position. (That is, judge them by the effects their actions have.) Liliana probably has a higher kill count, but then she's also much older. Of the two of them, which of them have materially helped Nicol Bolas's plans? Most recently, Vraska. It is possible that Liliana's presence was needed for the Hours, given Razaketh's role, but I highly doubt it. Vraska willingly signed up to help Nicol Bolas--without much research as to consequences--and is now set up as a deep-cover sleeper set to betray him. But Nicol Bolas also has the Immortal Sun. What has Liliana done to actually help Bolas? Possibly something in exchange for Bolas's brokerage of her demonic deals, but that to me is unknown. In any event, which of the two is worse is quite arguable, Vraska's positive actions and interactions with Jace aside.
She did help a great deal on Innistrad, but they had an inkling of the kind of person she was, and under "normal" circumstances, there would be no reason to ask her to join.
However, because there was such a huge shortage of monoblack planeswalkers, the options of which monoblack walkers to toss into the Gatewatch were limited. That and Liliana being one of the Origins 5 made her the obvious choice. Liliana's own justification for joining up was understandable though, as she couldn't go it alone, and her encounter with Razaketh pretty much validated her decision.
For the record, I don't mind Liliana being in the Gatewatch, and I think it could be a great vehicle for her own character growth.
And yet she did nothing to dissuade them of this fact until Bolas himself showed up, because she is using the Gatewatch to help her murder her little demons and get free of the Chain Veil.
Except that she is NOT their friend, she is the kid who pretends to be your friend because you had the shiny new Super Nintendo.
Because Jace is a useful Toy.
And that is the only reason she is in the Gatewatch.
That is because nothing WILL happen of it, she will get forgiven because "we need a mono black planeswalker in the gatewatch."
They chose the Origin's five based on who would be the "core" of the Gatewatch, not the other way around, Liliana was chosen because she was the only mono-black planeswalker with a spark at the time. Sorin had gone to Orzhov, Vraska was Golgari, and Ob didn't have his spark.
I personally do mind her being in the Gatewatch because she was clearly written as a amoral badguy when she was first introduced, has always been portrayed that way because WOTC has only ever broken the "black part of the pie is evil" a whole Twice in 25 years.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
You are thinking of Nissa;
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/163213874753/instead-of-trying-to-convince-us-that-lilliana
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/146478341018/so-if-jace-is-the-most-popular-planeswalker
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/163243842838/yes-top-three-in-order-based-on-market
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
What? That is a straight up Lie, there is ONE OTHER mono black planeswalker in existence right now and he is just as outright Evil as Liliana is. What other options are there? The Planar Chaos Gideon that has been sitting on Dominaria?
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
Toshiro Umezawa, Drana, Yahenni, Maralen and (if you want to stretch it) mono-black!Sorin.
Those are the only other mono-black characters I remember in "heroic" roles, so I agree that mono-black has had a bad rap for much of its existence. For a color commonly associated with death, greed and destruction, it's to be expected.
I forgot about Yahenni so 3, Toshiro Umezawa, Chainer and Yahenni that are 3 characters that are fully heroic (minus The Mirari driving Chainer insane) Drana doesn't count because previous to the Eldrazi getting freed the Blood Lords were evil.
Edit : Sorin does not count either, he went to Orzhov when they revealed "he may be a vampire but he is really a nice guy..he made Avacyn and all."
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
That's why I put heroic in quotes. I know that Drana and Sorin weren't true heroes.
Maralen was because she opposed Oona and worked to end the Great Aurora nonsense for good, and she even went as far as to tell her peeps to off her if she ever became like Oona.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
Her original card is, so I figured I'd mention it. If she ever got a new card, it'd probably be Dimir though.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
They had Sorin, who until Tarkir was only suppose to be white/black on Innistrad;
Note I also said nothing on the subject of if Liliana was a good choice or not, just that she was picked cause she was the most popular walker and according to Maro they had other choice. But honestly you seem to rather take your thoughts as fact/canon, so you do you I guess.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Not really IMO, since the original Maralen and Oona!Maralen are two different people.
You are taking Maro at his word, I frankly do not take anyone at WOTC at their word. You want to fine, but don't sit there and talk about "my facts" when the people you are quoting also said "People Will love Promo Tokens!" and "The two block cycle will be great guys!" and "We don't need core sets."
If I recall, and I don't recall a whole lot of that block cause I didn't like the books of it in one of the first two at some point Maralen made a "deal" with the Clique so they served her..but she didn't actually reveal who she was until the latter half of the block? So the Maralen card would have been when she was still hiding who she was.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
Unless your argument is, 'I don't take anyone at WotC at their word unless they state what I believe.'?
And I just wanted to reply to this because the rest falls into the 'you believe your headcanon over canon' category.
You clearly didn't understand me. I do not believe Liliana leaving during the battle after Jace left and after Nicol Bolas's breaking speech was a betrayal of the Gatewatch. If that is true, then Chandra and Nissa leaving are also betrayals of the Gatewatch.
What I am saying is that Nicol Bolas's speech tried to reassert control of Liliana for future use. Until we see something of Liliana helping Nicol Bolas on the order of, say, picking up a major artifact for use in his schemes, Liliana will not have betrayed the Gatewatch at all. Unless, again, you want to argue that Chandra and Nissa also betrayed the Gatewatch.
Yes, there are conflicts with Liliana being a member of the Gatewatch, and yes I imagine that there was some fallout when she left without much of a fight...
However,
She is also a powerful planeswalker and (while maybe these are my own thoughts being Abzan and all) that power can serve noble purposes if channeled correctly. I am enough of a realist to understand that sometimes you have to use all the tools in your belt, including those deemed nasty, dark, but powerful.
Also, all of the Gatewatch planeswalkers bring conflict to the group if the team's purposes end up being too radically different from their own philosophies and values.
Chandra values freedom and choice. She's not going to join causes that subjugates people in their creative, personal expressions, particularly those that don't jeopardize the safety and freedoms other people- much.
Nissa values the environment and preserving natural balance, whatever that means for the plane in question. It is unlikely she would join in causes where she feels the net harm and damage to the planar ecology is greater than the benefits to such environment and ecology.
Gideon cares about doing that which he feels is 'just' and 'right'. This is perhaps one of the most flexible standards as it is not entirely clear what is included in these principles. We know that he prefers to work within the confines of the law if possible and that he cares about both individuals and societies as a whole. Where he chooses to err in these may depend on Creative.
Jace's own ideology is also fairly flexible. He is concerned with the 'big picture', personal responsibilities, Learning, and those with whom he's formed an alliance with. Threats to either the Multiverse, Ravnica, the Gatewatch, or learning opportunities are likely to motivate him the most. He is also motivated to learn as much as he can about subjects that interest him.
Lilliana is the easiest to figure out. If it helps or benefits Liliana in some way, particularly with her remaining demons or controlling the Veil then she'll do it, especially if the benefits outweigh the costs to her. She has also no problem trying to gain psychological advantages over other Gatewatch members, particularly if it allows her to better control or manipulate them to better meet her own agenda.
Ajani- not entirely sure. He seems to be a mixture of both Gideon's and Nissa's values, as he cares about almost everyone including nature, and dislikes abuses of power and ability.
I think we will see more conflict as more members join and as new objectives arise that may conflict with individual members. The Eldrazi and Bolas are pretty universal Threats to most value and ideological systems. The biggest sticking point I see in the future is the question as to when should the Gatewatch interfere and when should they not.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi