The broken record I am I'll say Feather as always, as well as add in Azzor I, Leonos II, Cisarzim, Mat'Selesnya, "Mr. Simic" and Svogthir. If you were a guildleader you should get a card.
Hal and Alana are super cute and I'd love to see them as a card but I think its been too soon for wizards to get the feed back that we wanted to see them as cards.
Azzor I was a planeswalker so I doubt that we would get him but I would love to get him nonetheless and Svoghtir
We don't know if he's a walker or not, just he wasn't born in Ravnica. Lots of creatures where brought to Ravnica from other worlds which is why it is so diverse plane. Its been brought up many times around the forum already.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Azor was confirmed to have been a planeswalker at the end of the Dragon's Maze book when Jace because the Living Guildpact and wonders how a planeswalker will be able to maintain the order or Ravnica. He is then told by that...somethimg...an azorious construct that gave him that power...that Azor 1 was a planeswalker as well.
I'm aware of the conversion and it clear you either misremember, ignored or projected your own words since what the construct said to Jace was;
“You are the one who has proven himself the mediator, the one who can understand the perspectives of the ten guilds. So, like before, when the guilds clash, a code of law will arbitrate between them. The difference is that now, you are that law.”
“I can’t be.”
“Nevertheless, you are.”
“But I am not … I am not from this world.”
“Neither, as it happens, was Azor. But that criterion was not important to his Assessment.”
Never said he was a walker. And as I said we had evidence that many creatures had been pulled off world to Ravnica.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I wonder if the art, and characters used on the cards is accurate, but the templates are fake? Grammar and certain decisions about, for example O-Kagachi's P/T have been called into question. I hope that's the case because I really want to see a larger O-Kagachi at least. I can live with the rest, but do not do a worldsoul dirty like that.
I wonder if the art, and characters used on the cards is accurate, but the templates are fake? Grammar and certain decisions about, for example O-Kagachi's P/T have been called into question. I hope that's the case because I really want to see a larger O-Kagachi at least. I can live with the rest, but do not do a worldsoul dirty like that.
I think the justification they're using is that O-Kagachi is represented in that card at the nadir of his power, having been reduced to mere "powerful kami" status rather than "Lord of Kami and Mortals" because of his lengthy separation from the Taken One. And I can see that from a design standpoint, because they clearly wanted the Ur-Dragon in the Dragons deck and two huge 10/10 five-color fatties would be hard to differentiate enough.
I wonder if the art, and characters used on the cards is accurate, but the templates are fake? Grammar and certain decisions about, for example O-Kagachi's P/T have been called into question. I hope that's the case because I really want to see a larger O-Kagachi at least. I can live with the rest, but do not do a worldsoul dirty like that.
I think the justification they're using is that O-Kagachi is represented in that card at the nadir of his power, having been reduced to mere "powerful kami" status rather than "Lord of Kami and Mortals" because of his lengthy separation from the Taken One. And I can see that from a design standpoint, because they clearly wanted the Ur-Dragon in the Dragons deck and two huge 10/10 five-color fatties would be hard to differentiate enough.
I don't think the latter reason, although valid to WOTC I'm sure, is something I am comfortable with. Have two 5-color 10/10 fatties in the same deck is frankly perfect. That's what Commander is all about, and it's more accurate that way.
I'm willing to grant that the temporal separation between him and Kyodai (rather than just the initial physical separation) diminished him. But I will note that each appearance of O-Kagachi in the books showed him getting larger and more ferocious, as he would only partly manifest at first, and more slowly at first. By the time he faces the Sisters, O-Kagachi is his full size, and he flashes into existence rather than slowly and partially manifesting… his form fills the horizons of Kamigawa at that point too.
I wonder if the art, and characters used on the cards is accurate, but the templates are fake? Grammar and certain decisions about, for example O-Kagachi's P/T have been called into question. I hope that's the case because I really want to see a larger O-Kagachi at least. I can live with the rest, but do not do a worldsoul dirty like that.
I think the justification they're using is that O-Kagachi is represented in that card at the nadir of his power, having been reduced to mere "powerful kami" status rather than "Lord of Kami and Mortals" because of his lengthy separation from the Taken One. And I can see that from a design standpoint, because they clearly wanted the Ur-Dragon in the Dragons deck and two huge 10/10 five-color fatties would be hard to differentiate enough.
I don't think the latter reason, although valid to WOTC I'm sure, is something I am comfortable with. Have two 5-color 10/10 fatties in the same deck is frankly perfect. That's what Commander is all about, and it's more accurate that way.
I'm willing to grant that the temporal separation between him and Kyodai (rather than just the initial physical separation) diminished him. But I will note that each appearance of O-Kagachi in the books showed him getting larger and more ferocious, as he would only partly manifest at first, and more slowly at first. By the time he faces the Sisters, O-Kagachi is his full size, and he flashes into existence rather than slowly and partially manifesting… his form fills the horizons of Kamigawa at that point too.
There are further justifications you could use to (charitably) explain or (less charitably) retcon the events of the books. O-Kagachi is powerful enough in the first appearances that he doesn't think he needs his full form but later grows in desperation, possibly making a semi-illusionary appearance in hope of simply overawing the mortals who messed with him into capitulation. And in the case of the Sisters, maybe Kyodai's presence in a mortal body was enough to recharge O-Kagachi into almost his full strength, or the righteous indignation he felt at his "child" being reduced to mortal status gave him the power he needed to re-god-ify one last time?
Regardless, I get the sense that his size is your only issue with the cards as presented, and I feel where you're coming from with EDH being the land-of-the-titans. But as a custom designer and a Commander player I know that there have to be midrange sized options, too, especially for commanders themselves. A lot of R&D are flavor fans and I don't doubt they had to make a tough decision making a small O-Kagachi, but I like both the card as presented in the leaks and your 14/14 world-ender that you custom designed. To me they represent related but very distinct aspects or versions of one character that fit together as an interesting whole.
Why Thraxes? There's a dozen more interesting dragons we could see.
I mean, why not? He's big, he's primal, people like Theros. I doubt there are any more new legends at all in the Dragons deck, but another year, sure. Bring on a 10/10 Thraxes with monstrosity 30.
I do agree that there are a whole bunch of Dragons alone that I want to see before Thraxes, though. Niv-Mizzet's clones and Piru come to mind.
I wonder if the art, and characters used on the cards is accurate, but the templates are fake? Grammar and certain decisions about, for example O-Kagachi's P/T have been called into question. I hope that's the case because I really want to see a larger O-Kagachi at least. I can live with the rest, but do not do a worldsoul dirty like that.
I think the justification they're using is that O-Kagachi is represented in that card at the nadir of his power, having been reduced to mere "powerful kami" status rather than "Lord of Kami and Mortals" because of his lengthy separation from the Taken One. And I can see that from a design standpoint, because they clearly wanted the Ur-Dragon in the Dragons deck and two huge 10/10 five-color fatties would be hard to differentiate enough.
I don't think the latter reason, although valid to WOTC I'm sure, is something I am comfortable with. Have two 5-color 10/10 fatties in the same deck is frankly perfect. That's what Commander is all about, and it's more accurate that way.
I'm willing to grant that the temporal separation between him and Kyodai (rather than just the initial physical separation) diminished him. But I will note that each appearance of O-Kagachi in the books showed him getting larger and more ferocious, as he would only partly manifest at first, and more slowly at first. By the time he faces the Sisters, O-Kagachi is his full size, and he flashes into existence rather than slowly and partially manifesting… his form fills the horizons of Kamigawa at that point too.
There are further justifications you could use to (charitably) explain or (less charitably) retcon the events of the books. O-Kagachi is powerful enough in the first appearances that he doesn't think he needs his full form but later grows in desperation, possibly making a semi-illusionary appearance in hope of simply overawing the mortals who messed with him into capitulation. And in the case of the Sisters, maybe Kyodai's presence in a mortal body was enough to recharge O-Kagachi into almost his full strength, or the righteous indignation he felt at his "child" being reduced to mortal status gave him the power he needed to re-god-ify one last time?
Regardless, I get the sense that his size is your only issue with the cards as presented, and I feel where you're coming from with EDH being the land-of-the-titans. But as a custom designer and a Commander player I know that there have to be midrange sized options, too, especially for commanders themselves. A lot of R&D are flavor fans and I don't doubt they had to make a tough decision making a small O-Kagachi, but I like both the card as presented in the leaks and your 14/14 world-ender that you custom designed. To me they represent related but very distinct aspects or versions of one character that fit together as an interesting whole.
Well, I'm not any less happy to see O-Kagachi on a card. It's a card I will purchase and treasure in my Kamigawa themed EDH deck for sure. That said, I feel like with booster sets designed for Standard and Draft as a priority, that's generally the place (and rightfully so) that Legendaries are scaled back and more efficient/mid-range. In these supplemental products designed for casual formats populated by Vorthos I just feel they really should let it rip. Playing it too safe with these designs robs the lore and the spirit of EDH. I'm concerned it's the same mistake as with Ludevic, where he lacked lore related flavor and any synergy because the card was designed Bottom-Up and later dressed as Ludevic for the sake of getting a card for him out there. I'm sure he wasn't any less cherished by fans, but having a wholesome card would have been ideal.
Regarding Thraxes - I'm not familiar with many dragons outside him and O-Kagachi really. He's the Typhon trope of Theros though, which I admire. Return to Theros could deliver him just as easily, but this is appropriate too. How many other high profile dragons in need of cards are there?
Well, I'm not any less happy to see O-Kagachi on a card. It's a card I will purchase and treasure in my Kamigawa themed EDH deck for sure. That said, I feel like with booster sets designed for Standard and Draft as a priority, that's generally the place (and rightfully so) that Legendaries are scaled back and more efficient/mid-range. In these supplemental products designed for casual formats populated by Vorthos I just feel they really should let it rip. Playing it too safe with these designs robs the lore and the spirit of EDH. I'm concerned it's the same mistake as with Ludevic, where he lacked lore related flavor and any synergy because the card was designed Bottom-Up and later dressed as Ludevic for the sake of getting a card for him out there. I'm sure he wasn't any less cherished by fans, but having a wholesome card would have been ideal.
My headcanon now is that this O-Kagachi was his 6-headed form when he chased after Toshiro at Minamo Academy and not the 8-headed form that nullified non-Kyodai Magic, the same way I've always taken Final Judgment to be his 3-headed form that steamrolled Konda's army and tore Yosei up.
If you think about it, his ability implies the All-Consuming attacking him and getting torn into two (which gameplay translates to exile), which well, was the same thing that happened to Yosei and Final Judgment (Judgment exiling all was an additional reference to Konda's Army).
Well, I'm not any less happy to see O-Kagachi on a card. It's a card I will purchase and treasure in my Kamigawa themed EDH deck for sure. That said, I feel like with booster sets designed for Standard and Draft as a priority, that's generally the place (and rightfully so) that Legendaries are scaled back and more efficient/mid-range. In these supplemental products designed for casual formats populated by Vorthos I just feel they really should let it rip. Playing it too safe with these designs robs the lore and the spirit of EDH. I'm concerned it's the same mistake as with Ludevic, where he lacked lore related flavor and any synergy because the card was designed Bottom-Up and later dressed as Ludevic for the sake of getting a card for him out there. I'm sure he wasn't any less cherished by fans, but having a wholesome card would have been ideal.
My headcanon now is that this O-Kagachi was his 6-headed form when he chased after Toshiro at Minamo Academy and not the 8-headed form that nullified non-Kyodai Magic, the same way I've always taken Final Judgment to be his 3-headed form that steamrolled Konda's army and tore Yosei up.
If you think about it, his ability implies the All-Consuming attacking him and getting torn into two (which gameplay translates to exile), which well, was the same thing that happened to Yosei and Final Judgment (Judgment exiling all was an additional reference to Konda's Army).
The funny thing about this all is that O-Kagachi didn't get a card beyond a depiction on Final Judgment in the original Kamigawa block because he was deemed to powerful to print.
Regrettably, the art shows 8 heads. And frankly, if 3 heads are capable of an effect like Final Judgment, which is certainly in line with the lore, then I am still disappointed that even 6 heads would be THIS.
But you know, I am just happy to have a 5 color O-Kagachi card, and I know there's simply nothing to do but accept this and see the good in it, which is that he is finally printed, at least. I only voice this displeasure to emphasize to WOTC, if they're reading, that they really need to design these character cards Top-Down, and if not, at least ensure they end up like Taigam or Kydele where the Bottom-Up effect is actually suitable. Or better yet, ensure that the design puts Vorthos and the Lore as the priority, and not absurd rules for a casual Vorthos product as if a mana curve or power level need to be a concern in EDH.
The funny thing about this all is that O-Kagachi didn't get a card beyond a depiction on Final Judgment in the original Kamigawa block because he was deemed to powerful to print.
Regrettably, the art shows 8 heads. And frankly, if 3 heads are capable of an effect like Final Judgment, which is certainly in line with the lore, then I am still disappointed that even 6 heads would be THIS.
Technically Final Judgment might be showing a fourth head manifesting behind, so I tend to be a bit more lenient on the art (translates to "heads still manifesting").
I'm not seeing this 6-headed form as "O-Kagachi's full power at 6 heads", I'm seeing it more as a "Storyline Spotlight". When O-Kagachi manifested at Minamo, all that happened with him was All-Consuming attacking and got halved in return then Toshiro escaped and O-Kagachi just "un-manifested". They did mention that O-Kagachi took ridiculously long times to manifest when Kyodai was still sealed and he tend to finish his battles (or lose interest) before he fully manifested.
Yes I won't deny I'm just using flavor as an excuse to "justify" the bad design (and some sort of denial to it as well), but I'm willing to see it that O-Kagachi is so powerful that his single action at Minamo wasn't sufficient to be represented by a sorcery/instant, so it was represented by a Legendary Creature card instead. Yes, I'm seeing this as "O-Kagachi appearing for a few minutes in 6-headed form" than O-Kagachi himself. A moment for O-Kagachi, an entire existence's worth for all others.
Does every thread about C17 have to devolve into complaints about O-Kagachi and rebuttals to said complaints? I'm not saying either side is wrong but this clearly is not the thread for that. Back on topic, I would like to see:
Fonn Zunich GW or RGW (Elf tribal. Hell, she could be a human elf to fit in elf tribal.)
Crixizix UR (Goblin tribal)
Zomaj Hauc UR (He would have fit best in the dragons deck, but that ship has sailed. Maybe wizard or human tribal? A long shot, but it would be cool.)
Svogthir BG (A real card, not a mediocre non-legendary utility land. Obviously zombie tribal, if it even has green, as it could easily be just WUB.)
Szadek (Vampire Spirit) UB (Spirit tribal or, more likely, vampire tribal.)
Feather RW (Seriously, if angel tribal is one of the decks and Feather isn't in it, there will be riots.)
Edgar Markov BR or RWB (Vampire tribal, people have wanted him since the original Innistrad and SOI missed him.)
Runo Stromkirk BR or UBR (Same as Edgar Markov, save for potential third color.)
Hal and Alena G or GW (Human tribal, if they even had enough time to implement this.)
4th Angel Sister WB (Angel tribal. I suspect they planned ahead and referenced her in the story so they could put her in a future Commander set.)
Fayomosi or any other legendary Rakshasa B, BG, or BGU (Cat tribal anyone?)
Taigam (KTK) UB or BGU (The Taigam that I really want to get. Admittedly not very likely, but with DTK Taigam in the set I could see it happening to draw a parallel, even if they are in two different decks. Human or wizard tribal, assuming that he is considered a wizard rather than a monk in the original timeline.)
Many of these wouldn't encompass the entire color identity of their respective tribal deck, but would presumably split the colors with another legendary creature like Taigam and Wasitora in the dragons deck. Several of them could theoretically get cards in standard legal return sets to their respective planes, so ones that are dead (or from an alternate reality) would be higher priority in a Commander set. Hopefully at least one of these in the set. And hopefully they don't get the Ludevic treatment.
Funny thing...one of Wasitora's defining abilities, unique even among the nekoru, was the ability to use magic - namely green healing spells. The card does not reflect that at all, but hey...I am not complaining.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
100% Vorthos Spike and Storyline Expert
Former Fact Prospector of the Greek Alliance.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
Funny thing...one of Wasitora's defining abilities, unique even among the nekoru, was the ability to use magic - namely green healing spells. The card does not reflect that at all, but hey...I am not complaining.
You can't capture every aspect of a legend on one card. Being a perpetually pregnant Cat-Dragon is unique enough without a healing mechanic.
I wonder if the art, and characters used on the cards is accurate, but the templates are fake? Grammar and certain decisions about, for example O-Kagachi's P/T have been called into question. I hope that's the case because I really want to see a larger O-Kagachi at least. I can live with the rest, but do not do a worldsoul dirty like that.
As far as I know O-Kagachi wasn't Kamigawa's worldsoul. It was "merely" the kami of the veil, the guardian between the two subplanes. Honestly I think more would have happened to Kamigawa if they had killed the world-soul.
However, I do agree with you on the P-T thing. Yes, delivering long-awaited cards for fans is great, but honestly, when you can't deliver on a card's base expectations, don't push it. It's not like there's a limited time window they can print O-Kagachi. They can do it in almost any five-coloured commander deck.
Slapping a popular name on an otherwise unrelated card really isn't my idea of "delivering it". A character is more than just a combination of letters. :/
Slapping a popular name on an otherwise unrelated card really isn't my idea of "delivering it". A character is more than just a combination of letters. :/
Idk the revenge aspect of his ability seems pretty flavorful. Just think of how it would feel to have a player hit you with a Konda and then you hit them with O-Kagachi. Defiant better then Ludevic or Emmara was in terms of flavor.
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Slapping a popular name on an otherwise unrelated card really isn't my idea of "delivering it". A character is more than just a combination of letters. :/
Idk the revenge aspect of his ability seems pretty flavorful. Just think of how it would feel to have a player hit you with a Konda and then you hit them with O-Kagachi. Defiant better then Ludevic or Emmara was in terms of flavor.
I guess so, but those two are a ridiculously low bar.
As far as I know O-Kagachi wasn't Kamigawa's worldsoul. It was "merely" the kami of the veil, the guardian between the two subplanes.
O-Kagachi was the mightiest of the kami on Kamigawa. It was the Kami of the Barrier that divided the physical world from the spirit world. O-Kagachi's manifest form was that of an immesureably vast, eight-headed serpent with eyes that blazed like stars. It was the soul of the world, the very first kami, as old as the plane itself.
Descriptions from the books themselves.
Everything about O-Kagachi always emphasized his size.
As far as I know O-Kagachi wasn't Kamigawa's worldsoul. It was "merely" the kami of the veil, the guardian between the two subplanes.
O-Kagachi was the mightiest of the kami on Kamigawa. It was the Kami of the Barrier that divided the physical world from the spirit world. O-Kagachi's manifest form was that of an immesureably vast, eight-headed serpent with eyes that blazed like stars. It was the soul of the world, the very first kami, as old as the plane itself.
Descriptions from the books themselves.
Everything about O-Kagachi always emphasized his size.
What you quote is the Wiki page on O-Kagachi, not from any of the books, and the bolded part is just made up. O-Kagachi is never referred as a *worldsoul* in the books.
Always as the "guardian of the physical world, the spiritual world, and the barrier between", "embodiment of the barrier", "mightiest of all kami", etc...
Directly from Heretic:BOK, Mochi talking to Michiko. Based on this he should be totally un-cardable. You might as well go for avatars of order and chaos itself. Of course, this is an in-plane myth of creation, and this is a trickster kami with his own agenda talking, but there is no reason not to believe, as this is pretty much the only source.
So either consider him the diminished, vulnerable version that fought the Sisters, or be disappointed, because otherwise, he would have to be at least 50/50.
As far as I know O-Kagachi wasn't Kamigawa's worldsoul. It was "merely" the kami of the veil, the guardian between the two subplanes.
O-Kagachi was the mightiest of the kami on Kamigawa. It was the Kami of the Barrier that divided the physical world from the spirit world. O-Kagachi's manifest form was that of an immesureably vast, eight-headed serpent with eyes that blazed like stars. It was the soul of the world, the very first kami, as old as the plane itself.
Descriptions from the books themselves.
Everything about O-Kagachi always emphasized his size.
Don't take this the wrong way, but aren't you taking this out of "It's X because of the story" territory and way into "I want it to be better because I like it" turf? =/
I would say that is one of Jenrik's defining features, and unfortunately a rich source of his disappointment once and again. On his defense, we all went through this
And now seriously...this horse has been beaten to death and beyond. What about dropping the O-Kagachi topic and focus on others?
As far as I know O-Kagachi wasn't Kamigawa's worldsoul. It was "merely" the kami of the veil, the guardian between the two subplanes.
O-Kagachi was the mightiest of the kami on Kamigawa. It was the Kami of the Barrier that divided the physical world from the spirit world. O-Kagachi's manifest form was that of an immesureably vast, eight-headed serpent with eyes that blazed like stars. It was the soul of the world, the very first kami, as old as the plane itself.
Descriptions from the books themselves.
Everything about O-Kagachi always emphasized his size.
What you quote is the Wiki page on O-Kagachi, not from any of the books, and the bolded part is just made up. O-Kagachi is never referred as a *worldsoul* in the books.
Always as the "guardian of the physical world, the spiritual world, and the barrier between", "embodiment of the barrier", "mightiest of all kami", etc...
Directly from Heretic:BOK, Mochi talking to Michiko. Based on this he should be totally un-cardable. You might as well go for avatars of order and chaos itself. Of course, this is an in-plane myth of creation, and this is a trickster kami with his own agenda talking, but there is no reason not to believe, as this is pretty much the only source.
So either consider him the diminished, vulnerable version that fought the Sisters, or be disappointed, because otherwise, he would have to be at least 50/50.
As far as I know O-Kagachi wasn't Kamigawa's worldsoul. It was "merely" the kami of the veil, the guardian between the two subplanes.
O-Kagachi was the mightiest of the kami on Kamigawa. It was the Kami of the Barrier that divided the physical world from the spirit world. O-Kagachi's manifest form was that of an immesureably vast, eight-headed serpent with eyes that blazed like stars. It was the soul of the world, the very first kami, as old as the plane itself.
Descriptions from the books themselves.
Everything about O-Kagachi always emphasized his size.
Don't take this the wrong way, but aren't you taking this out of "It's X because of the story" territory and way into "I want it to be better because I like it" turf? =/
I would say that is one of Jenrik's defining features, and unfortunately a rich source of his disappointment once and again. On his defense, we all went through this
And now seriously...this horse has been beaten to death and beyond. What about dropping the O-Kagachi topic and focus on others?
Yep, sounds like a flying, tramping 6/6 alright, what was I thinking expecting something as grand as dramatic as that to be a 10/10 or more with devastating abilities.
As far as I know O-Kagachi wasn't Kamigawa's worldsoul. It was "merely" the kami of the veil, the guardian between the two subplanes.
O-Kagachi was the mightiest of the kami on Kamigawa. It was the Kami of the Barrier that divided the physical world from the spirit world. O-Kagachi's manifest form was that of an immesureably vast, eight-headed serpent with eyes that blazed like stars. It was the soul of the world, the very first kami, as old as the plane itself.
Descriptions from the books themselves.
Everything about O-Kagachi always emphasized his size.
What you quote is the Wiki page on O-Kagachi, not from any of the books, and the bolded part is just made up. O-Kagachi is never referred as a *worldsoul* in the books.
Always as the "guardian of the physical world, the spiritual world, and the barrier between", "embodiment of the barrier", "mightiest of all kami", etc...
Directly from Heretic:BOK, Mochi talking to Michiko. Based on this he should be totally un-cardable. You might as well go for avatars of order and chaos itself. Of course, this is an in-plane myth of creation, and this is a trickster kami with his own agenda talking, but there is no reason not to believe, as this is pretty much the only source.
So either consider him the diminished, vulnerable version that fought the Sisters, or be disappointed, because otherwise, he would have to be at least 50/50.
As far as I know O-Kagachi wasn't Kamigawa's worldsoul. It was "merely" the kami of the veil, the guardian between the two subplanes.
O-Kagachi was the mightiest of the kami on Kamigawa. It was the Kami of the Barrier that divided the physical world from the spirit world. O-Kagachi's manifest form was that of an immesureably vast, eight-headed serpent with eyes that blazed like stars. It was the soul of the world, the very first kami, as old as the plane itself.
Descriptions from the books themselves.
Everything about O-Kagachi always emphasized his size.
Don't take this the wrong way, but aren't you taking this out of "It's X because of the story" territory and way into "I want it to be better because I like it" turf? =/
I would say that is one of Jenrik's defining features, and unfortunately a rich source of his disappointment once and again. On his defense, we all went through this
And now seriously...this horse has been beaten to death and beyond. What about dropping the O-Kagachi topic and focus on others?
Yep, sounds like a flying, tramping 6/6 alright, what was I thinking expecting something as grand as dramatic as that to be a 10/10 or more with devastating abilities.
Sour grapes much? Have you even read what I have written? If taken verbatim, he would not get a card ever.
This is O-Kagachi,deal with it. No point in crying further. You said in the Rumor Mill that you do not care if he would cost 30 mana and was a 20/20 (paraphrasing). Newsflash-others DO. Others want to actually PLAY with cards they buy.
Yes,I myself think it is small and it should have been at least Progenitus-level. On the other hand,there is not much design space on Progenitus-level. If offered a choice between this version of O-Kagachi and nothing,I gladly accept this.
So do not behave like this,or Arixmethes will be a 5/5 vanilla ;-)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
100% Vorthos Spike and Storyline Expert
Former Fact Prospector of the Greek Alliance.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
As far as I know O-Kagachi wasn't Kamigawa's worldsoul. It was "merely" the kami of the veil, the guardian between the two subplanes.
O-Kagachi was the mightiest of the kami on Kamigawa. It was the Kami of the Barrier that divided the physical world from the spirit world. O-Kagachi's manifest form was that of an immesureably vast, eight-headed serpent with eyes that blazed like stars. It was the soul of the world, the very first kami, as old as the plane itself.
Descriptions from the books themselves.
Everything about O-Kagachi always emphasized his size.
What you quote is the Wiki page on O-Kagachi, not from any of the books, and the bolded part is just made up. O-Kagachi is never referred as a *worldsoul* in the books.
Always as the "guardian of the physical world, the spiritual world, and the barrier between", "embodiment of the barrier", "mightiest of all kami", etc...
Directly from Heretic:BOK, Mochi talking to Michiko. Based on this he should be totally un-cardable. You might as well go for avatars of order and chaos itself. Of course, this is an in-plane myth of creation, and this is a trickster kami with his own agenda talking, but there is no reason not to believe, as this is pretty much the only source.
So either consider him the diminished, vulnerable version that fought the Sisters, or be disappointed, because otherwise, he would have to be at least 50/50.
O-Kagachi was the mightiest of the kami on Kamigawa. It was the Kami of the Barrier that divided the physical world from the spirit world. O-Kagachi's manifest form was that of an immesureably vast, eight-headed serpent with eyes that blazed like stars. It was the soul of the world, the very first kami, as old as the plane itself.
Descriptions from the books themselves.
Everything about O-Kagachi always emphasized his size.
Don't take this the wrong way, but aren't you taking this out of "It's X because of the story" territory and way into "I want it to be better because I like it" turf? =/
I would say that is one of Jenrik's defining features, and unfortunately a rich source of his disappointment once and again. On his defense, we all went through this
And now seriously...this horse has been beaten to death and beyond. What about dropping the O-Kagachi topic and focus on others?
Yep, sounds like a flying, tramping 6/6 alright, what was I thinking expecting something as grand as dramatic as that to be a 10/10 or more with devastating abilities.
Sour grapes much? Have you even read what I have written? If taken verbatim, he would not get a card ever.
This is O-Kagachi,deal with it. No point in crying further. You said in the Rumor Mill that you do not care if he would cost 30 mana and was a 20/20 (paraphrasing). Newsflash-others DO. Others want to actually PLAY with cards they buy.
Yes,I myself think it is small and it should have been at least Progenitus-level. On the other hand,there is not much design space on Progenitus-level. If offered a choice between this version of O-Kagachi and nothing,I gladly accept this.
So do not behave like this,or Arixmethes will be a 5/5 vanilla ;-)
Sorry, I quoted you but meant to encompass the discussion at large. What you contributed was fair and reasonable and I appreciated the excerpt. My issue is this flawed idea (I won't bother quoting the posts) that somehow I am a biased Kamigawa fanboy and that's why O-Kagachi is a problem for me. This is false. If I wanted Choryu to be a 6/6 then go ahead and call it that. But O-Kagachi is one of those major planar beings like Progenitus, the Theros pantheon, Avacyn, etc. who deserve to be major, grand, expensive-spell creatures. The ONLY reason people are making excuses for this flavor fail design is because they acknowledge the product didn't want to have two giant creatures (which is a flaw in my opinion, and an unnecessary restriction on a Vorthos casual product - this ain't freaking Standard and Spike isn't scouring the internet for CMC or mana curves on an O-Kagachi card) or making wild speculation theories that aren't founded in anything to justify this nonsense. An 8 headed serpent alone being less than 8/8 was a fail even on a normal creature. Let alone this major old lore world soul legend. And yes he is a world soul. Read that excerpt and come to another conclusion if you can.
I'll take this version over no O-Kagachi hands down. But I do not feel it is a fair choice either. Especially when the rules for this are self-imposed. I'm attacking the idea that the design couldn't allow for a Progenitus level design for O-Kagachi alongside Ur Dragon. I feel future ones should. They should design these cards Top-Down. Stop making them within these product confines and stop confining the design for that matter. Look at O-Kagachi, imagine what a character card for him looks like and print it at all costs regardless.
Arixmethes can't be larger than a Segovian Leviathan because Theros is one plane out of infinity of planes, stop being a Theros Fanboy please.
This is O-Kagachi,deal with it. No point in crying further. You said in the Rumor Mill that you do not care if he would cost 30 mana and was a 20/20 (paraphrasing). Newsflash-others DO. Others want to actually PLAY with cards they buy.
This. Flavor and actual game elements always have to exist in balance. This may not the most "accurate" depiction of O-Kagachi (I felt a bit let down at first too), but a) they're not going to cram two super-strong-but-also-super-expensive super-powerful dragons into one commander precon because having two would make the deck feel even clunkier than it already (most likely) is, b) designing cards at Progenitus-level is hard (like Caranthir already said) and c) (original) Kamigawa story fans may be vocal online, but are a minority overall.
Thinking about it, it's pretty understandable why they didn't go for a "1:1 depiction" of O-Kagachi and what we got still reflects at least one of his characteristics quite well (the vengeance thing). Even if you don't like it, at some point you have to accept things for what they are (just like Blind Seer is probably the only "Urza" there'll ever be).
Speaking of Kamigawa story characters, I'd like to see the All Consuming Oni of Chaos. The name alone is just so great.
Quote from Tiro of Meletis »
The ONLY reason people are making excuses for this flavor fail design is because they acknowledge the product didn't want to have two giant creatures (which is a flaw in my opinion, and an unnecessary restriction on a Vorthos casual product
Is it though? I think it isn't so much a vorthos product than a product for casual play, first and foremost. That's why they can't completely disregard some game concerns.
Sorry, I quoted you but meant to encompass the discussion at large. What you contributed was fair and reasonable and I appreciated the excerpt. My issue is this flawed idea (I won't bother quoting the posts) that somehow I am a biased Kamigawa fanboy and that's why O-Kagachi is a problem for me. This is false. If I wanted Choryu to be a 6/6 then go ahead and call it that. But O-Kagachi is one of those major planar beings like Progenitus, the Theros pantheon, Avacyn, etc. who deserve to be major, grand, expensive-spell creatures. The ONLY reason people are making excuses for this flavor fail design is because they acknowledge the product didn't want to have two giant creatures (which is a flaw in my opinion, and an unnecessary restriction on a Vorthos casual product - this ain't freaking Standard and Spike isn't scouring the internet for CMC or mana curves on an O-Kagachi card) or making wild speculation theories that aren't founded in anything to justify this nonsense. An 8 headed serpent alone being less than 8/8 was a fail even on a normal creature. Let alone this major old lore world soul legend. And yes he is a world soul. Read that excerpt and come to another conclusion if you can.
Quite frankly...you ARE a Kamigawa fanboy and a serious caeruleaphiliac (yes, I made that word up, but it freaking fits).
It is *not* a world-soul as understood in context of other planes. I think the quote is self-explanatory and I refuse to waste any more of my time on that.
Commanders are not a *Vorthos* casual product. They are a casual product, throwing a couple of bones to Vorthosi is a bonus, not a rule.
I'll take this version over no O-Kagachi hands down. But I do not feel it is a fair choice either. Especially when the rules for this are self-imposed. I'm attacking the idea that the design couldn't allow for a Progenitus level design for O-Kagachi alongside Ur Dragon. I feel future ones should. They should design these cards Top-Down. Stop making them within these product confines and stop confining the design for that matter. Look at O-Kagachi, imagine what a character card for him looks like and print it at all costs regardless.
You have no idea how these products are actually designed, do you? How do "you feel" is irrelevant. The decks have to be playable. Yes, O-Kagachi was hurt by being included in the same product as the Ur-Dragon. He could have been a 10/10 commander in 5C Spirit deck. He is not, period.
We don't know if he's a walker or not, just he wasn't born in Ravnica. Lots of creatures where brought to Ravnica from other worlds which is why it is so diverse plane. Its been brought up many times around the forum already.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I'm aware of the conversion and it clear you either misremember, ignored or projected your own words since what the construct said to Jace was;
Never said he was a walker. And as I said we had evidence that many creatures had been pulled off world to Ravnica.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Canon, as much as I am concerned.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/library-leng-2009-10-19
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I think the justification they're using is that O-Kagachi is represented in that card at the nadir of his power, having been reduced to mere "powerful kami" status rather than "Lord of Kami and Mortals" because of his lengthy separation from the Taken One. And I can see that from a design standpoint, because they clearly wanted the Ur-Dragon in the Dragons deck and two huge 10/10 five-color fatties would be hard to differentiate enough.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
I'm willing to grant that the temporal separation between him and Kyodai (rather than just the initial physical separation) diminished him. But I will note that each appearance of O-Kagachi in the books showed him getting larger and more ferocious, as he would only partly manifest at first, and more slowly at first. By the time he faces the Sisters, O-Kagachi is his full size, and he flashes into existence rather than slowly and partially manifesting… his form fills the horizons of Kamigawa at that point too.
EDIT
Could we see Thraxes here btw?
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
There are further justifications you could use to (charitably) explain or (less charitably) retcon the events of the books. O-Kagachi is powerful enough in the first appearances that he doesn't think he needs his full form but later grows in desperation, possibly making a semi-illusionary appearance in hope of simply overawing the mortals who messed with him into capitulation. And in the case of the Sisters, maybe Kyodai's presence in a mortal body was enough to recharge O-Kagachi into almost his full strength, or the righteous indignation he felt at his "child" being reduced to mortal status gave him the power he needed to re-god-ify one last time?
Regardless, I get the sense that his size is your only issue with the cards as presented, and I feel where you're coming from with EDH being the land-of-the-titans. But as a custom designer and a Commander player I know that there have to be midrange sized options, too, especially for commanders themselves. A lot of R&D are flavor fans and I don't doubt they had to make a tough decision making a small O-Kagachi, but I like both the card as presented in the leaks and your 14/14 world-ender that you custom designed. To me they represent related but very distinct aspects or versions of one character that fit together as an interesting whole.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
I mean, why not? He's big, he's primal, people like Theros. I doubt there are any more new legends at all in the Dragons deck, but another year, sure. Bring on a 10/10 Thraxes with monstrosity 30.
I do agree that there are a whole bunch of Dragons alone that I want to see before Thraxes, though. Niv-Mizzet's clones and Piru come to mind.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Regarding Thraxes - I'm not familiar with many dragons outside him and O-Kagachi really. He's the Typhon trope of Theros though, which I admire. Return to Theros could deliver him just as easily, but this is appropriate too. How many other high profile dragons in need of cards are there?
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
My headcanon now is that this O-Kagachi was his 6-headed form when he chased after Toshiro at Minamo Academy and not the 8-headed form that nullified non-Kyodai Magic, the same way I've always taken Final Judgment to be his 3-headed form that steamrolled Konda's army and tore Yosei up.
If you think about it, his ability implies the All-Consuming attacking him and getting torn into two (which gameplay translates to exile), which well, was the same thing that happened to Yosei and Final Judgment (Judgment exiling all was an additional reference to Konda's Army).
Regrettably, the art shows 8 heads. And frankly, if 3 heads are capable of an effect like Final Judgment, which is certainly in line with the lore, then I am still disappointed that even 6 heads would be THIS.
But you know, I am just happy to have a 5 color O-Kagachi card, and I know there's simply nothing to do but accept this and see the good in it, which is that he is finally printed, at least. I only voice this displeasure to emphasize to WOTC, if they're reading, that they really need to design these character cards Top-Down, and if not, at least ensure they end up like Taigam or Kydele where the Bottom-Up effect is actually suitable. Or better yet, ensure that the design puts Vorthos and the Lore as the priority, and not absurd rules for a casual Vorthos product as if a mana curve or power level need to be a concern in EDH.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Technically Final Judgment might be showing a fourth head manifesting behind, so I tend to be a bit more lenient on the art (translates to "heads still manifesting").
I'm not seeing this 6-headed form as "O-Kagachi's full power at 6 heads", I'm seeing it more as a "Storyline Spotlight". When O-Kagachi manifested at Minamo, all that happened with him was All-Consuming attacking and got halved in return then Toshiro escaped and O-Kagachi just "un-manifested". They did mention that O-Kagachi took ridiculously long times to manifest when Kyodai was still sealed and he tend to finish his battles (or lose interest) before he fully manifested.
Yes I won't deny I'm just using flavor as an excuse to "justify" the bad design (and some sort of denial to it as well), but I'm willing to see it that O-Kagachi is so powerful that his single action at Minamo wasn't sufficient to be represented by a sorcery/instant, so it was represented by a Legendary Creature card instead. Yes, I'm seeing this as "O-Kagachi appearing for a few minutes in 6-headed form" than O-Kagachi himself. A moment for O-Kagachi, an entire existence's worth for all others.
Fonn Zunich GW or RGW (Elf tribal. Hell, she could be a human elf to fit in elf tribal.)
Crixizix UR (Goblin tribal)
Zomaj Hauc UR (He would have fit best in the dragons deck, but that ship has sailed. Maybe wizard or human tribal? A long shot, but it would be cool.)
Svogthir BG (A real card, not a mediocre non-legendary utility land. Obviously zombie tribal, if it even has green, as it could easily be just WUB.)
Szadek (Vampire Spirit) UB (Spirit tribal or, more likely, vampire tribal.)
Feather RW (Seriously, if angel tribal is one of the decks and Feather isn't in it, there will be riots.)
Edgar Markov BR or RWB (Vampire tribal, people have wanted him since the original Innistrad and SOI missed him.)
Runo Stromkirk BR or UBR (Same as Edgar Markov, save for potential third color.)
Hal and Alena G or GW (Human tribal, if they even had enough time to implement this.)
4th Angel Sister WB (Angel tribal. I suspect they planned ahead and referenced her in the story so they could put her in a future Commander set.)
Fayomosi or any other legendary Rakshasa B, BG, or BGU (Cat tribal anyone?)
Taigam (KTK) UB or BGU (The Taigam that I really want to get. Admittedly not very likely, but with DTK Taigam in the set I could see it happening to draw a parallel, even if they are in two different decks. Human or wizard tribal, assuming that he is considered a wizard rather than a monk in the original timeline.)
Many of these wouldn't encompass the entire color identity of their respective tribal deck, but would presumably split the colors with another legendary creature like Taigam and Wasitora in the dragons deck. Several of them could theoretically get cards in standard legal return sets to their respective planes, so ones that are dead (or from an alternate reality) would be higher priority in a Commander set. Hopefully at least one of these in the set. And hopefully they don't get the Ludevic treatment.
Funny thing...one of Wasitora's defining abilities, unique even among the nekoru, was the ability to use magic - namely green healing spells. The card does not reflect that at all, but hey...I am not complaining.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
You can't capture every aspect of a legend on one card. Being a perpetually pregnant Cat-Dragon is unique enough without a healing mechanic.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
As far as I know O-Kagachi wasn't Kamigawa's worldsoul. It was "merely" the kami of the veil, the guardian between the two subplanes. Honestly I think more would have happened to Kamigawa if they had killed the world-soul.
However, I do agree with you on the P-T thing. Yes, delivering long-awaited cards for fans is great, but honestly, when you can't deliver on a card's base expectations, don't push it. It's not like there's a limited time window they can print O-Kagachi. They can do it in almost any five-coloured commander deck.
Slapping a popular name on an otherwise unrelated card really isn't my idea of "delivering it". A character is more than just a combination of letters. :/
Idk the revenge aspect of his ability seems pretty flavorful. Just think of how it would feel to have a player hit you with a Konda and then you hit them with O-Kagachi. Defiant better then Ludevic or Emmara was in terms of flavor.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I guess so, but those two are a ridiculously low bar.
Descriptions from the books themselves.
Everything about O-Kagachi always emphasized his size.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
What you quote is the Wiki page on O-Kagachi, not from any of the books, and the bolded part is just made up. O-Kagachi is never referred as a *worldsoul* in the books.
Always as the "guardian of the physical world, the spiritual world, and the barrier between", "embodiment of the barrier", "mightiest of all kami", etc...
Directly from Heretic:BOK, Mochi talking to Michiko. Based on this he should be totally un-cardable. You might as well go for avatars of order and chaos itself. Of course, this is an in-plane myth of creation, and this is a trickster kami with his own agenda talking, but there is no reason not to believe, as this is pretty much the only source.
So either consider him the diminished, vulnerable version that fought the Sisters, or be disappointed, because otherwise, he would have to be at least 50/50.
I would say that is one of Jenrik's defining features, and unfortunately a rich source of his disappointment once and again. On his defense, we all went through this
And now seriously...this horse has been beaten to death and beyond. What about dropping the O-Kagachi topic and focus on others?
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Sour grapes much? Have you even read what I have written? If taken verbatim, he would not get a card ever.
This is O-Kagachi,deal with it. No point in crying further. You said in the Rumor Mill that you do not care if he would cost 30 mana and was a 20/20 (paraphrasing). Newsflash-others DO. Others want to actually PLAY with cards they buy.
Yes,I myself think it is small and it should have been at least Progenitus-level. On the other hand,there is not much design space on Progenitus-level. If offered a choice between this version of O-Kagachi and nothing,I gladly accept this.
So do not behave like this,or Arixmethes will be a 5/5 vanilla ;-)
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
I'll take this version over no O-Kagachi hands down. But I do not feel it is a fair choice either. Especially when the rules for this are self-imposed. I'm attacking the idea that the design couldn't allow for a Progenitus level design for O-Kagachi alongside Ur Dragon. I feel future ones should. They should design these cards Top-Down. Stop making them within these product confines and stop confining the design for that matter. Look at O-Kagachi, imagine what a character card for him looks like and print it at all costs regardless.
Arixmethes can't be larger than a Segovian Leviathan because Theros is one plane out of infinity of planes, stop being a Theros Fanboy please.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
This. Flavor and actual game elements always have to exist in balance. This may not the most "accurate" depiction of O-Kagachi (I felt a bit let down at first too), but a) they're not going to cram two super-strong-but-also-super-expensive super-powerful dragons into one commander precon because having two would make the deck feel even clunkier than it already (most likely) is, b) designing cards at Progenitus-level is hard (like Caranthir already said) and c) (original) Kamigawa story fans may be vocal online, but are a minority overall.
Thinking about it, it's pretty understandable why they didn't go for a "1:1 depiction" of O-Kagachi and what we got still reflects at least one of his characteristics quite well (the vengeance thing). Even if you don't like it, at some point you have to accept things for what they are (just like Blind Seer is probably the only "Urza" there'll ever be).
Speaking of Kamigawa story characters, I'd like to see the All Consuming Oni of Chaos. The name alone is just so great.
Is it though? I think it isn't so much a vorthos product than a product for casual play, first and foremost. That's why they can't completely disregard some game concerns.
Quite frankly...you ARE a Kamigawa fanboy and a serious caeruleaphiliac (yes, I made that word up, but it freaking fits).
It is *not* a world-soul as understood in context of other planes. I think the quote is self-explanatory and I refuse to waste any more of my time on that.
Commanders are not a *Vorthos* casual product. They are a casual product, throwing a couple of bones to Vorthosi is a bonus, not a rule.
You have no idea how these products are actually designed, do you? How do "you feel" is irrelevant. The decks have to be playable. Yes, O-Kagachi was hurt by being included in the same product as the Ur-Dragon. He could have been a 10/10 commander in 5C Spirit deck. He is not, period.
What?
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)