Is Amonkhet to Kinshala what Theros is to Arkhos and Tarkir is to Mongseng? That is, is it possible they were conceptualized as the same plane initially, but then the name was changed later in development?
Very possible. There is Tember City and it does have a middle-eastern vibe to it. Also that planechase card did come out in 2010, so perhaps the concept of Amonkhet being the "Utopian city state amongst the unforgiving barren deserts" was not created at that time. That there were more locations before they finally settled on what they wanted from a desert-themed plane.
Thank you for your response, Anara_of_the_Old_Ways! Yeah I know the Greek plane was initially called Arkhos and the Mongolian plane was intially called Mongseng, so it makes sense that this could have happened as well.
I asked Mark Rosewater this question, and got back a sort of ambiguous answer.
"Hi Mark, is Amonkhet to Kinshala what Theros is to Arkhos and Tarkir is to Mongseng?"
"If Kinshala is the hinted at Egyptian-themed world, then probably."
It seems like he isn't sure exactly what Kinshala is, so I'm not sure how much weight to give that answer.
User khalimswill commented "Kinshala was shown in a single promo plane card. It looks more Arab-culture North Africa than Ancient Egypt."
I asked khalimswill to explain the differences they observed that would make it more of an Arab-culture North Africa than Ancient Egypt? Egypt is technically in the north of Africa, so I'm wondering what sets it apart. I haven't heard back from them yet.
Thoughts on this response from Mark Rosewater or the comment of khalimswill?
"It is a difference of age, basically. Amonkhet is based on the ancient Egypt civilization, that existed thousand of years before that region became a Muslim country. The plane card (Tember City) looks more Arab culture to me, with the turbans, the curtain at the door, the architecture. Egypt was like that in the middle ages after it became a Muslim country, but not in the age of Pharaohs thousands of years before. It is like having a Classic Rome plane and a Renaissance Rome plane (Fiora is more like the later, for example)."
Ah ok, that's an interesting thought. Hopefully we get Jamuraa proper back at some point, but Mark Rosewater's Tumblr makes me skeptical of that, and if we can't go back to Jamuraa, then Kinshala with similar tropes would be awesome!
I still wouldn't rule it out just yet. As both are desert-themed planes and there have been past instances of previously known planes that were essentially replaced later on in the developmen process at some point. Each plane card from planechase was made to set up potential future story ideas and that does potentially mean that a middle-eastern arab plane eventually got replaced by Amonkhet, an egyptian plane, as that is what they wanted instead out of a desert-themed plane.
Also Kinshala looks very much like Rabiah the Infinite (middle-eastern arabic plane, camels, efreets, djinns, turbans, palm trees, etc). Which is potentially another problem for WotC as they would have two planes that visually are identical. As it would be another reason why Amonkhet supplanted Kinshala in order to avoid confusion. Also because they have been moving away from planes like Rabiah the Infinite as it wasn't quite fully custom made by them and heavily borrowed from 1001 Arabian Nights.
I still wouldn't rule it out just yet. As both are desert-themed planes and there have been past instances of previously known planes that were essentially replaced later on in the developmen process at some point. Each plane card from planechase was made to set up potential future story ideas and that does potentially mean that a middle-eastern arab plane eventually got replaced by Amonkhet, an egyptian plane, as that is what they wanted instead out of a desert-themed plane.
Also Kinshala looks very much like Rabiah the Infinite (middle-eastern arabic plane, camels, efreets, djinns, turbans, palm trees, etc). Which is potentially another problem for WotC as they would have two planes that visually are identical. As it would be another reason why Amonkhet supplanted Kinshala in order to avoid confusion. Also because they have been moving away from planes like Rabiah the Infinite as it wasn't quite fully custom made by them and heavily borrowed from 1001 Arabian Nights.
If anything that makes it more likely Kinshala is not Amonkhet. A replacement for Rabiah would be ideal. They aren't doing planes like Rabiah because it was almost literally 1001 Arabian Nights, not because they don't want to touch on those tropes at all. It's the difference between making Zeus the Card and Heliod (you can replace Zeus with Apollo or what have you if you want to quibble on that). Rabiah was the former, Kinshala theoretically would be the latter.
Yes, I did state that WotC heavily borrowed from 1001 arabian nights. Yours is not a correction, but a reaffirmation of what I said.
Besides even if Kinshala is in the works, even as another name that is also not Amonkhet, how soon do you actually think they would do a second very desert-themed plane right after Hour of Devastation? I would wager 3+ years afterward. That is being generous. As part of me thinks it would be on the backburner actually for 6+ years instead. As it would be like doing Innistrad 1.0 and then a few years later following it up with a different gothic victorian themed horror plane but this one has Eldritch Horrors.
So lets say Nicol Bolas paradise and himself are deposed. But the people manage and start reshaping the surrounding landscape to make it less deadly and necromantic. This also can lead to a change in outfits and architecture. In which we meet the Kinshala version of Amonkhet. The great temples to the five gods can be seen, but they have seen better days as they have become weather-beaten, aged and pillaged by bandits and treasure seekers.
Yes, I did state that WotC heavily borrowed from 1001 arabian nights. Yours is not a correction, but a reaffirmation of what I said.
Besides even if Kinshala is in the works, even as another name that is also not Amonkhet, how soon do you actually think they would do a second very desert-themed plane right after Hour of Devastation? I would wager 3+ years afterward. That is being generous. As part of me thinks it would be on the backburner actually for 6+ years instead. As it would be like doing Innistrad 1.0 and then a few years later following it up with a different gothic victorian themed horror plane but this one has Eldritch Horrors.
So lets say Nicol Bolas paradise and himself are deposed. But the people manage and start reshaping the surrounding landscape to make it less deadly and necromantic. This also can lead to a change in outfits and architecture. In which we meet the Kinshala version of Amonkhet. The great temples to the five gods can be seen, but they have seen better days as they have become weather-beaten, aged and pillaged by bandits and treasure seekers.
Mine is a correction because you implied that planes like Rabiah weren't something WotC is interested in. At least that's how I read it.
And it's exceedingly doubtful that Amonkhet will ever not be Bolas world. It's the core identity of the plane I would say, and even if it isn't it's about as likely as a Return to Theros not having a noticeable Enchantment theme. They also aren't going to want to remove Egyptian things as a plane to make it more Middle Eastern. The lack of Djinn and such seems like kind of a damper on that plan too. Certainly all of this could be changed, but typically Wizards doesn't do drastic overhauls like that.
External forces visit the plane and shake it up in new ways. What gifts or even blessings they bring will change the inhabitants in new ways. Such as with how Innistrad went from Van Helsing horror into Eldritch horror when Shadows Over Innistrad rolled around.
As for the fact there is no Djinn or Efreet on Amonkhet? Take the plane of Wildfire into consideration. A plane of flame and lava, home of many Djinni and Efreeti, and ruled by the Emberwilde Caliph, and the Emberwilde Order. It maintains trade with several of the Rabiahs, and Suq'Ata on Dominaria, through the use of several naturally-occuring portals that can be found scattered throughout the deserts.
Now give them a naturally occurring portal to Amonkhet along with some time for their influence to affect the denizens of Amonkhet.
External forces visit the plane and shake it up in new ways. What gifts or even blessings they bring will change the inhabitants in new ways. Such as with how Innistrad went from Van Helsing horror into Eldritch horror when Shadows Over Innistrad rolled around.
As for the fact there is no Djinn or Efreet on Amonkhet? Take the plane of Wildfire into consideration. A plane of flame and lava, home of many Djinni and Efreeti, and ruled by the Emberwilde Caliph, and the Emberwilde Order. It maintains trade with several of the Rabiahs, and Suq'Ata on Dominaria, through the use of several naturally-occuring portals that can be found scattered throughout the deserts.
Now give them a naturally occurring portal to Amonkhet along with some time for their influence to affect the denizens of Amonkhet.
You're basically saying you want to make a new Plane which only vaguely resembles it just to justify Amonkhet as being Kinshala. I'm not sure why this is your hill, but it doesn't make any real sense. Comparing it to Innistrad ignores the fact that the core theme of Innistrad (horror) was shifted, but it still was a horror place. You're not really explaining why the Egyptian/Bolas plane has to lose those qualities just to become more broadly Middle Eastern, you're just trying to explain justifications on why it can do that. Even ignoring whether or not those are things they would do (given that interplanar portals would take away from the specialness of Planeswalkers I very much doubt they'll just let Amonkhet connect to another plane), it's a much more radical shift.
The closest example of them doing that would be Zendikar, except that they've already said they made a huge mistake with it. They aren't going to overwrite a planes core identity again without good reason.
External forces visit the plane and shake it up in new ways. What gifts or even blessings they bring will change the inhabitants in new ways. Such as with how Innistrad went from Van Helsing horror into Eldritch horror when Shadows Over Innistrad rolled around.
As for the fact there is no Djinn or Efreet on Amonkhet? Take the plane of Wildfire into consideration. A plane of flame and lava, home of many Djinni and Efreeti, and ruled by the Emberwilde Caliph, and the Emberwilde Order. It maintains trade with several of the Rabiahs, and Suq'Ata on Dominaria, through the use of several naturally-occuring portals that can be found scattered throughout the deserts.
Now give them a naturally occurring portal to Amonkhet along with some time for their influence to affect the denizens of Amonkhet.
You're basically saying you want to make a new Plane which only vaguely resembles it just to justify Amonkhet as being Kinshala. I'm not sure why this is your hill, but it doesn't make any real sense. Comparing it to Innistrad ignores the fact that the core theme of Innistrad (horror) was shifted, but it still was a horror place. You're not really explaining why the Egyptian/Bolas plane has to lose those qualities just to become more broadly Middle Eastern, you're just trying to explain justifications on why it can do that. Even ignoring whether or not those are things they would do (given that interplanar portals would take away from the specialness of Planeswalkers I very much doubt they'll just let Amonkhet connect to another plane), it's a much more radical shift.
The closest example of them doing that would be Zendikar, except that they've already said they made a huge mistake with it. They aren't going to overwrite a planes core identity again without good reason.
Each plane card from planechase is merely an idea, a brief summary that they sold to the public and could use to springboard off of for future planned sets. Its very possible that an Arabian set would get replaced instead by an Egyptian set. Kinshala can be written off as a "dead end" by creative who then refocuses their efforts elsewhere. Kinshala, the plane card, came out in 2010. Its been 7 years since then, as in one of MaRo's six-year design plans. What has emerged after those seven years is not Kinshala. Nor was it even a plane that they briefly showed within the dozens of planechase planes. Amonkhet just frankly showed up one day as a booster along with Hour of Devastation and the Azlanti packs.
Why this hill? Because I'm aware that stuff changes in development. Things get tossed out or don't make the cut because of many reasons and decisions made within a company.
Given that interplanar portals would take away from the specialness of Planeswalkers I very much doubt they'll just let Amonkhet connect to another plane
This wasn't an issue back in the late 90s. Planeswalkers were practically gods. Planeswalking was like stepping outside the front door of your home. Being able to hide away an entire continent from an invading force (Teferi and the land of Jamurra) is a more impressive feat. If the only impressive thing these post-mending walkers can do is travel to other planes, that is actually kind of sad.
Which is why I'm actually one of the people who fully defends when say Nissa channeled an entire plane's energy into themselves and then transferred all of that energy into Chandra who in turn created such a powerful fire spell that it slayed two Eldrazi Titans. Did it require a lot of prep work and conditions? Yes. Guess what? It was the same with Oldwalkers.
I know things change in development. That doesn't mean this is Kinshala though, and it definitely is not going to turn into Kinshala. One can look at Theros to see just how much sets can change, zero reason to think it's Kinshala except being in the same rough area, that isn't enough justification. And that's the only kind you've really given.
That and Maro not even being aware of it makes it all the less likely.
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I asked Mark Rosewater this question, and got back a sort of ambiguous answer.
"Hi Mark, is Amonkhet to Kinshala what Theros is to Arkhos and Tarkir is to Mongseng?"
"If Kinshala is the hinted at Egyptian-themed world, then probably."
It seems like he isn't sure exactly what Kinshala is, so I'm not sure how much weight to give that answer.
User khalimswill commented "Kinshala was shown in a single promo plane card. It looks more Arab-culture North Africa than Ancient Egypt."
I asked khalimswill to explain the differences they observed that would make it more of an Arab-culture North Africa than Ancient Egypt? Egypt is technically in the north of Africa, so I'm wondering what sets it apart. I haven't heard back from them yet.
Thoughts on this response from Mark Rosewater or the comment of khalimswill?
"It is a difference of age, basically. Amonkhet is based on the ancient Egypt civilization, that existed thousand of years before that region became a Muslim country. The plane card (Tember City) looks more Arab culture to me, with the turbans, the curtain at the door, the architecture. Egypt was like that in the middle ages after it became a Muslim country, but not in the age of Pharaohs thousands of years before. It is like having a Classic Rome plane and a Renaissance Rome plane (Fiora is more like the later, for example)."
Thoughts on this?
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Also Kinshala looks very much like Rabiah the Infinite (middle-eastern arabic plane, camels, efreets, djinns, turbans, palm trees, etc). Which is potentially another problem for WotC as they would have two planes that visually are identical. As it would be another reason why Amonkhet supplanted Kinshala in order to avoid confusion. Also because they have been moving away from planes like Rabiah the Infinite as it wasn't quite fully custom made by them and heavily borrowed from 1001 Arabian Nights.
It sounds exceedingly Bantu. "kiNshala" could be a real world word in a Bantu language denoting "the language of the (nonexistent) Nshala people."
Kinshala is pretty firmly North-Central Africa: The Plane.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
If anything that makes it more likely Kinshala is not Amonkhet. A replacement for Rabiah would be ideal. They aren't doing planes like Rabiah because it was almost literally 1001 Arabian Nights, not because they don't want to touch on those tropes at all. It's the difference between making Zeus the Card and Heliod (you can replace Zeus with Apollo or what have you if you want to quibble on that). Rabiah was the former, Kinshala theoretically would be the latter.
Besides even if Kinshala is in the works, even as another name that is also not Amonkhet, how soon do you actually think they would do a second very desert-themed plane right after Hour of Devastation? I would wager 3+ years afterward. That is being generous. As part of me thinks it would be on the backburner actually for 6+ years instead. As it would be like doing Innistrad 1.0 and then a few years later following it up with a different gothic victorian themed horror plane but this one has Eldritch Horrors.
So lets say Nicol Bolas paradise and himself are deposed. But the people manage and start reshaping the surrounding landscape to make it less deadly and necromantic. This also can lead to a change in outfits and architecture. In which we meet the Kinshala version of Amonkhet. The great temples to the five gods can be seen, but they have seen better days as they have become weather-beaten, aged and pillaged by bandits and treasure seekers.
Mine is a correction because you implied that planes like Rabiah weren't something WotC is interested in. At least that's how I read it.
And it's exceedingly doubtful that Amonkhet will ever not be Bolas world. It's the core identity of the plane I would say, and even if it isn't it's about as likely as a Return to Theros not having a noticeable Enchantment theme. They also aren't going to want to remove Egyptian things as a plane to make it more Middle Eastern. The lack of Djinn and such seems like kind of a damper on that plan too. Certainly all of this could be changed, but typically Wizards doesn't do drastic overhauls like that.
As for the fact there is no Djinn or Efreet on Amonkhet? Take the plane of Wildfire into consideration. A plane of flame and lava, home of many Djinni and Efreeti, and ruled by the Emberwilde Caliph, and the Emberwilde Order. It maintains trade with several of the Rabiahs, and Suq'Ata on Dominaria, through the use of several naturally-occuring portals that can be found scattered throughout the deserts.
Now give them a naturally occurring portal to Amonkhet along with some time for their influence to affect the denizens of Amonkhet.
You're basically saying you want to make a new Plane which only vaguely resembles it just to justify Amonkhet as being Kinshala. I'm not sure why this is your hill, but it doesn't make any real sense. Comparing it to Innistrad ignores the fact that the core theme of Innistrad (horror) was shifted, but it still was a horror place. You're not really explaining why the Egyptian/Bolas plane has to lose those qualities just to become more broadly Middle Eastern, you're just trying to explain justifications on why it can do that. Even ignoring whether or not those are things they would do (given that interplanar portals would take away from the specialness of Planeswalkers I very much doubt they'll just let Amonkhet connect to another plane), it's a much more radical shift.
The closest example of them doing that would be Zendikar, except that they've already said they made a huge mistake with it. They aren't going to overwrite a planes core identity again without good reason.
Each plane card from planechase is merely an idea, a brief summary that they sold to the public and could use to springboard off of for future planned sets. Its very possible that an Arabian set would get replaced instead by an Egyptian set. Kinshala can be written off as a "dead end" by creative who then refocuses their efforts elsewhere. Kinshala, the plane card, came out in 2010. Its been 7 years since then, as in one of MaRo's six-year design plans. What has emerged after those seven years is not Kinshala. Nor was it even a plane that they briefly showed within the dozens of planechase planes. Amonkhet just frankly showed up one day as a booster along with Hour of Devastation and the Azlanti packs.
Why this hill? Because I'm aware that stuff changes in development. Things get tossed out or don't make the cut because of many reasons and decisions made within a company.
This wasn't an issue back in the late 90s. Planeswalkers were practically gods. Planeswalking was like stepping outside the front door of your home. Being able to hide away an entire continent from an invading force (Teferi and the land of Jamurra) is a more impressive feat. If the only impressive thing these post-mending walkers can do is travel to other planes, that is actually kind of sad.
Which is why I'm actually one of the people who fully defends when say Nissa channeled an entire plane's energy into themselves and then transferred all of that energy into Chandra who in turn created such a powerful fire spell that it slayed two Eldrazi Titans. Did it require a lot of prep work and conditions? Yes. Guess what? It was the same with Oldwalkers.
That and Maro not even being aware of it makes it all the less likely.