In the novel "Test of metal" Nicol Bolas creates a clone of himself which is able to do clockworking. In order to figure out wether it's impossible to defeat Bolas or if he's just way too powerful for the Gatewatch I wondered wether the real Bolas is a clockworker, too or was it just that clone?
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I apologize for my English, it's not my main language.
Test of Metal as a whole is sketchy on whether its cannon or not so its hard to comment on any specific element of the book. That being said Bolas has had enough time to master and forget more forms of magic than most planes have come up with. So can he clockwork or something like it? Definitely. Does that matter? Probably not.
Bolas can't reasonable lose, but that doesn't mean he won't. Everyone is hoping for a loss by the gatewatch and it is well deserved. But creative has their own plans. That said they haven't really be hiding how events will unfold, everything has been fairly predictable so with a loss foreshadowed a loss is likely.
Test of Metal as a whole is sketchy on whether its cannon or not so its hard to comment on any specific element of the book. That being said Bolas has had enough time to master and forget more forms of magic than most planes have come up with. So can he clockwork or something like it? Definitely. Does that matter? Probably not.
Bolas can't reasonable lose, but that doesn't mean he won't. Everyone is hoping for a loss by the gatewatch and it is well deserved. But creative has their own plans. That said they haven't really be hiding how events will unfold, everything has been fairly predictable so with a loss foreshadowed a loss is likely.
What, and SOI was a victory? Sure, Emrakul got sealed away, but she practically did it herself, the Gatewatch didn't truly beat her the way they did Ulamog and Kozilek. Let's also not forget that Gideon, Jace, and Nissa were defeated single-handedly by Ob Nixilis, and only by Chandra freeing them and the four working together did they manage to defeat him.
And why exactly is a loss deserved? For years, Magic saw its heroes suffer defeat after defeat after defeat. The Eldrazi got set free on Zendikar. New Phyrexia won the war with the Mirrans, Venser had to sacrifice himself to save Karn, Elspeth was forced to leave by Koth and wound up getting killed on Theros. Even now, Sorin's trapped on Innistrad with Avacyn, Gisela, and Bruna all gone. I wouldn't call SOI a win, for Innistrad or the Gatewatch.
Honestly, I'm sick of Bolas being untouchable. I want to see him get defeated, even if the Gatewatch have to call on some friends to do so, so it's established that he can't just curbstomp the heroes whenever he feels like, because that will get old very fast. Sure, make him threatening so we can appreciate their eventual victory. But right now, Bolas is a boring villain. Show that he does have vulnerabilities and that he can be beaten, then I'll start respecting his presence in the story. Losing to the Gatewatch will give Bolas more reason to gather allies in characters like Ob Nixilis.
Yes, I know the Gatewatch have to lose some battles, but considering that the average block takes six months to conclude, I don't want to be kept waiting only for the heroes to lose in the end. KTK block ended with the Dragons enslaving humanity (though it's not a total loss since Ugin and Narset at least are around to help the good guys in the future). BFZ the set ended with Ulamog and Kozilek breaking free, and Ob Nixilis defeating and capturing Nissa, Gideon, and Jace. SOI block ended with Avacyn, Bruna, and Gisela all dead, Sorin trapped, the people of Innistrad devastated, and Nahiri getting away scot free (at least until the Gatewatch give her a taste of real justice). Kaladesh the set ended with Tezzeret getting away and the inventions being stolen. Amonkhet the set will likely end with Gatewatch captured by Bolas or otherwise in danger. The heroes' defeat should happen in the middle of the story as a means to build suspense and an opportunity for the heroes to learn and grow, otherwise it will feel like the whole story was a waste of time. I want to see the heroes win in the end; you deny me that, you betray my trust.
That said, the story has set up that Nixilis will seek revenge, and Bolas likely will too once he has been defeated. The bad guys will find some way to really hurt the heroes, and they'll be left reeling for a while, possibly separated, maybe even some dead. But the Gatewatch will reform and come back to give the bad guys their comeuppance. It's story telling 101.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Test of Metal as a whole is sketchy on whether its cannon or not so its hard to comment on any specific element of the book. That being said Bolas has had enough time to master and forget more forms of magic than most planes have come up with. So can he clockwork or something like it? Definitely. Does that matter? Probably not.
Bolas can't reasonable lose, but that doesn't mean he won't. Everyone is hoping for a loss by the gatewatch and it is well deserved. But creative has their own plans. That said they haven't really be hiding how events will unfold, everything has been fairly predictable so with a loss foreshadowed a loss is likely.
What, and SOI was a victory? Sure, Emrakul got sealed away, but she practically did it herself, the Gatewatch didn't truly beat her the way they did Ulamog and Kozilek. Let's also not forget that Gideon, Jace, and Nissa were defeated single-handedly by Ob Nixilis, and only by Chandra freeing them and the four working together did they manage to defeat him.
There is some misdirected rage here. No where did I claim SOI was a victory and I didn't mention Ob at all either.
And why exactly is a loss deserved? For years, Magic saw its heroes suffer defeat after defeat after defeat. The Eldrazi got set free on Zendikar. New Phyrexia won the war with the Mirrans, Venser had to sacrifice himself to save Karn, Elspeth was forced to leave by Koth and wound up getting killed on Theros. Even now, Sorin's trapped on Innistrad with Avacyn, Gisela, and Bruna all gone. I wouldn't call SOI a win, for Innistrad or the Gatewatch.
A loss is deserved because of the unreasonable amounts of hubris being displayed. Again I didn't call SOI a win, it was unquestionably not a victory.
Honestly, I'm sick of Bolas being untouchable. I want to see him get defeated, even if the Gatewatch have to call on some friends to do so, so it's established that he can't just curbstomp the heroes whenever he feels like, because that will get old very fast. Sure, make him threatening so we can appreciate their eventual victory. But right now, Bolas is a boring villain. Show that he does have vulnerabilities and that he can be beaten, then I'll start respecting his presence in the story. Losing to the Gatewatch will give Bolas more reason to gather allies in characters like Ob Nixilis.
Yes because all characters that are killed are 'untouchable'. Bolas DIED, sure he got better(so did Ugin) quit making ridiculous claims. This defeat is all but assured, then they will call in friends the next time and that might be a good time for him to lose.
Yes, I know the Gatewatch have to lose some battles, but considering that the average block takes six months to conclude, I don't want to be kept waiting only for the heroes to lose in the end. KTK block ended with the Dragons enslaving humanity (though it's not a total loss since Ugin and Narset at least are around to help the good guys in the future). BFZ the set ended with Ulamog and Kozilek breaking free, and Ob Nixilis defeating and capturing Nissa, Gideon, and Jace. SOI block ended with Avacyn, Bruna, and Gisela all dead, Sorin trapped, the people of Innistrad devastated, and Nahiri getting away scot free (at least until the Gatewatch give her a taste of real justice). Kaladesh the set ended with Tezzeret getting away and the inventions being stolen. Amonkhet the set will likely end with Gatewatch captured by Bolas or otherwise in danger. The heroes' defeat should happen in the middle of the story as a means to build suspense and an opportunity for the heroes to learn and grow, otherwise it will feel like the whole story was a waste of time. I want to see the heroes win in the end; you deny me that, you betray my trust.
Hero's can learn and grow while still losing. Thats just asking for a good story. Demanding a specific sequence of events is limiting potential.
That said, the story has set up that Nixilis will seek revenge, and Bolas likely will too once he has been defeated. The bad guys will find some way to really hurt the heroes, and they'll be left reeling for a while, possibly separated, maybe even some dead. But the Gatewatch will reform and come back to give the bad guys their comeuppance. It's story telling 101.
Yes, that will happen, as I said they aren't really hiding how they want this story to go and they've telegraphed pretty hard that a loss is in store on Amonkhet. Then they will get a larger group to win.
The idea that the heroes MUST win at the end is a surefire way to create stale storytelling. If the most important thing to you in a tale is that the protagonist comes out on top then you are really missing out on what stories can do other than tell the same beats for the hero's journey over and over.
I will chalk up both SOI and BFZ as victories for the Gatewatch. Crisis was averted in both cases with BFZ having the Gatewatch literally destroy two of the most powerful known beings in the Multiverse, known to give even oldwalkers a run for their money, with no meaningful loses to the characters. It would be one thing if Zendikar was scarred by the Eldrazi forever and Nissa had to deal with the repercussions of that, but to my knowledge it was stated that Zendikar will recover and Nissa is apparently fine enough with that to go galavanting with the team.
SOI ended much the same. It doesn't matter that Emrakul consented to being imprisoned because we still have yet to see any consequences of the Gatewatch's actions. They put her in the moon, thought they did a good enough job and went off to advertise themselves. And again, it would be one thing if maybe Jace was still affected by having an eldritch elder deity influence his mind. If maybe we still saw him dealing with some madness here or there. That would be interesting. But that didn't happen. Everything seems to be fine for the team and they're apparently getting to big for their britches they're going to try to take on Bolas himself after being directly told not to by someone who has dealt with him before. That sounds like hubris and we know what good stories do to characters with a surplus of that.
The way you feel about Bolas is the way I feel about The Gatewatch. The difference here is that Bolas has been defeated in the past, in his afformentioned death as well as his battle with Ajani on Alara. The Gatewatch's "defeat" at the hands of Nixilis feels like a speed bump considering they handily kicked his but promptly afterwards and, again, walked away fine enough to take down a couple of elder beings. There doesn't seem to be any really consequence to the actions of the Gatewatch despite multiple characters telling them there will be. Well where are they? The team has faced threats much larger than them and walked away with little wounds to show for it on multiple occasions.
And, for another thing, if the Gatewatch does defeat Bolas, what legitimate villains will we even have other than Phyrexia? The Eldrazi were taken care of all too easily (disregarding Emrakul whom we likely won't see again for sometime but is currently still incapacitated). Ob Nixilis and Tezzeret? Those guys JUST got punked. If you're going to have opposition to your heroes, it helps for that opposition to be reasonably believable as a threat to the plight of the protagonists. Bolas is arguably the last non-Phyrexian force in the Multiverse we know of that the team hasn't trounced. Letting them take another trophy here is going to give off serious plot armour vibes and kill the respectability of Magic's oldest surviving central villain. Those aren't good things.
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"Pop in, find a dragon, roast a dragon."
-Chandra Nalaar
Yes, I know the Gatewatch have to lose some battles, but considering that the average block takes six months to conclude, I don't want to be kept waiting only for the heroes to lose in the end. KTK block ended with the Dragons enslaving humanity (though it's not a total loss since Ugin and Narset at least are around to help the good guys in the future). BFZ the set ended with Ulamog and Kozilek breaking free, and Ob Nixilis defeating and capturing Nissa, Gideon, and Jace. SOI block ended with Avacyn, Bruna, and Gisela all dead, Sorin trapped, the people of Innistrad devastated, and Nahiri getting away scot free (at least until the Gatewatch give her a taste of real justice). Kaladesh the set ended with Tezzeret getting away and the inventions being stolen. Amonkhet the set will likely end with Gatewatch captured by Bolas or otherwise in danger. The heroes' defeat should happen in the middle of the story as a means to build suspense and an opportunity for the heroes to learn and grow, otherwise it will feel like the whole story was a waste of time. I want to see the heroes win in the end; you deny me that, you betray my trust.
the end of the first set of a block IS the middle of the story. the first set is basically Act 1 and the second set is Act 2. SoI block was the only one you said where the heroes didn't really win at the end of the story and the plane was devastated (with lasting effect). all the other you said had the heroes' defeat happen in the middle of the story, just like you said it should
To use an example more in line with the rest, SOI set ends with Avacyn destroyed and things going from bad to worse. SOI block ends with a tainted victory that feels like a defeat. Emrakul basically allowed Gatewatch to win, which is about as Lovecraftian as a Magic story can get while still allowing our heroes to continue doing hero stuff in later blocks.
SOI block in retrospect is not one of my favorites; I'm not a fan of the Lovecraftian genre in general. The mechanics were neat, I want to see Investigate come back in particular, but I did not enjoy that block's story nearly as much as Kaladesh.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Bring it back to Bolas and Clockworking. There are threads already for other discussions.
In any case, Test of Metal is as not-canon as something can be without being explicitly retconned. Nothing in it will likely ever be mentioned again, and it's worth noting that the process for creating Etherium described in it has been retconned by Breya, Etherium Shaper's story. Pieces of it were already retconned in Dark Discoveries.
Tezzeret's characterization in Kaladesh matches up with the Tezzeret in Agents of Artifice, not the one from Test of Metal. Liliana and Tezzeret are reluctant allies in Test of Metal, and the events between them (and Jace) are never mentioned in Kaladesh, only Agents of Artifice is referenced.
Bring it back to Bolas and Clockworking. There are threads already for other discussions.
In any case, Test of Metal is as not-canon as something can be without being explicitly retconned. Nothing in it will likely ever be mentioned again, and it's worth noting that the process for creating Etherium described in it has been retconned by Breya, Etherium Shaper's story. Pieces of it were already retconned in Dark Discoveries.
Tezzeret's characterization in Kaladesh matches up with the Tezzeret in Agents of Artifice, not the one from Test of Metal. Liliana and Tezzeret are reluctant allies in Test of Metal, and the events between them (and Jace) are never mentioned in Kaladesh, only Agents of Artifice is referenced.
I think you mean Baltrice. Liliana was antagonistic to Tezzeret in that dross of a book.
Otherwise, you are of course fully right about everything.
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Bring it back to Bolas and Clockworking. There are threads already for other discussions.
In any case, Test of Metal is as not-canon as something can be without being explicitly retconned. Nothing in it will likely ever be mentioned again, and it's worth noting that the process for creating Etherium described in it has been retconned by Breya, Etherium Shaper's story. Pieces of it were already retconned in Dark Discoveries.
Tezzeret's characterization in Kaladesh matches up with the Tezzeret in Agents of Artifice, not the one from Test of Metal. Liliana and Tezzeret are reluctant allies in Test of Metal, and the events between them (and Jace) are never mentioned in Kaladesh, only Agents of Artifice is referenced.
I think you mean Baltrice. Liliana was antagonistic to Tezzeret in that dross of a book.
Otherwise, you are of course fully right about everything.
No Jace and Baltrice are allies in that book. Liliana works with Tezzeret to get into the weird maze and asks him to help free her from her debts to Bolas and her Demons, he kind of hand waves that away.
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In the novel "Test of metal" Nicol Bolas creates a clone of himself which is able to do clockworking. In order to figure out wether it's impossible to defeat Bolas or if he's just way too powerful for the Gatewatch I wondered wether the real Bolas is a clockworker, too or was it just that clone?
Bolas can't reasonable lose, but that doesn't mean he won't. Everyone is hoping for a loss by the gatewatch and it is well deserved. But creative has their own plans. That said they haven't really be hiding how events will unfold, everything has been fairly predictable so with a loss foreshadowed a loss is likely.
What, and SOI was a victory? Sure, Emrakul got sealed away, but she practically did it herself, the Gatewatch didn't truly beat her the way they did Ulamog and Kozilek. Let's also not forget that Gideon, Jace, and Nissa were defeated single-handedly by Ob Nixilis, and only by Chandra freeing them and the four working together did they manage to defeat him.
And why exactly is a loss deserved? For years, Magic saw its heroes suffer defeat after defeat after defeat. The Eldrazi got set free on Zendikar. New Phyrexia won the war with the Mirrans, Venser had to sacrifice himself to save Karn, Elspeth was forced to leave by Koth and wound up getting killed on Theros. Even now, Sorin's trapped on Innistrad with Avacyn, Gisela, and Bruna all gone. I wouldn't call SOI a win, for Innistrad or the Gatewatch.
Honestly, I'm sick of Bolas being untouchable. I want to see him get defeated, even if the Gatewatch have to call on some friends to do so, so it's established that he can't just curbstomp the heroes whenever he feels like, because that will get old very fast. Sure, make him threatening so we can appreciate their eventual victory. But right now, Bolas is a boring villain. Show that he does have vulnerabilities and that he can be beaten, then I'll start respecting his presence in the story. Losing to the Gatewatch will give Bolas more reason to gather allies in characters like Ob Nixilis.
Yes, I know the Gatewatch have to lose some battles, but considering that the average block takes six months to conclude, I don't want to be kept waiting only for the heroes to lose in the end. KTK block ended with the Dragons enslaving humanity (though it's not a total loss since Ugin and Narset at least are around to help the good guys in the future). BFZ the set ended with Ulamog and Kozilek breaking free, and Ob Nixilis defeating and capturing Nissa, Gideon, and Jace. SOI block ended with Avacyn, Bruna, and Gisela all dead, Sorin trapped, the people of Innistrad devastated, and Nahiri getting away scot free (at least until the Gatewatch give her a taste of real justice). Kaladesh the set ended with Tezzeret getting away and the inventions being stolen. Amonkhet the set will likely end with Gatewatch captured by Bolas or otherwise in danger. The heroes' defeat should happen in the middle of the story as a means to build suspense and an opportunity for the heroes to learn and grow, otherwise it will feel like the whole story was a waste of time. I want to see the heroes win in the end; you deny me that, you betray my trust.
That said, the story has set up that Nixilis will seek revenge, and Bolas likely will too once he has been defeated. The bad guys will find some way to really hurt the heroes, and they'll be left reeling for a while, possibly separated, maybe even some dead. But the Gatewatch will reform and come back to give the bad guys their comeuppance. It's story telling 101.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
A loss is deserved because of the unreasonable amounts of hubris being displayed. Again I didn't call SOI a win, it was unquestionably not a victory.
Yes because all characters that are killed are 'untouchable'. Bolas DIED, sure he got better(so did Ugin) quit making ridiculous claims. This defeat is all but assured, then they will call in friends the next time and that might be a good time for him to lose.
Hero's can learn and grow while still losing. Thats just asking for a good story. Demanding a specific sequence of events is limiting potential.
Yes, that will happen, as I said they aren't really hiding how they want this story to go and they've telegraphed pretty hard that a loss is in store on Amonkhet. Then they will get a larger group to win.
I will chalk up both SOI and BFZ as victories for the Gatewatch. Crisis was averted in both cases with BFZ having the Gatewatch literally destroy two of the most powerful known beings in the Multiverse, known to give even oldwalkers a run for their money, with no meaningful loses to the characters. It would be one thing if Zendikar was scarred by the Eldrazi forever and Nissa had to deal with the repercussions of that, but to my knowledge it was stated that Zendikar will recover and Nissa is apparently fine enough with that to go galavanting with the team.
SOI ended much the same. It doesn't matter that Emrakul consented to being imprisoned because we still have yet to see any consequences of the Gatewatch's actions. They put her in the moon, thought they did a good enough job and went off to advertise themselves. And again, it would be one thing if maybe Jace was still affected by having an eldritch elder deity influence his mind. If maybe we still saw him dealing with some madness here or there. That would be interesting. But that didn't happen. Everything seems to be fine for the team and they're apparently getting to big for their britches they're going to try to take on Bolas himself after being directly told not to by someone who has dealt with him before. That sounds like hubris and we know what good stories do to characters with a surplus of that.
The way you feel about Bolas is the way I feel about The Gatewatch. The difference here is that Bolas has been defeated in the past, in his afformentioned death as well as his battle with Ajani on Alara. The Gatewatch's "defeat" at the hands of Nixilis feels like a speed bump considering they handily kicked his but promptly afterwards and, again, walked away fine enough to take down a couple of elder beings. There doesn't seem to be any really consequence to the actions of the Gatewatch despite multiple characters telling them there will be. Well where are they? The team has faced threats much larger than them and walked away with little wounds to show for it on multiple occasions.
And, for another thing, if the Gatewatch does defeat Bolas, what legitimate villains will we even have other than Phyrexia? The Eldrazi were taken care of all too easily (disregarding Emrakul whom we likely won't see again for sometime but is currently still incapacitated). Ob Nixilis and Tezzeret? Those guys JUST got punked. If you're going to have opposition to your heroes, it helps for that opposition to be reasonably believable as a threat to the plight of the protagonists. Bolas is arguably the last non-Phyrexian force in the Multiverse we know of that the team hasn't trounced. Letting them take another trophy here is going to give off serious plot armour vibes and kill the respectability of Magic's oldest surviving central villain. Those aren't good things.
-Chandra Nalaar
the end of the first set of a block IS the middle of the story. the first set is basically Act 1 and the second set is Act 2. SoI block was the only one you said where the heroes didn't really win at the end of the story and the plane was devastated (with lasting effect). all the other you said had the heroes' defeat happen in the middle of the story, just like you said it should
SOI block in retrospect is not one of my favorites; I'm not a fan of the Lovecraftian genre in general. The mechanics were neat, I want to see Investigate come back in particular, but I did not enjoy that block's story nearly as much as Kaladesh.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Modern:R 8Whack R|W White Knights W
In any case, Test of Metal is as not-canon as something can be without being explicitly retconned. Nothing in it will likely ever be mentioned again, and it's worth noting that the process for creating Etherium described in it has been retconned by Breya, Etherium Shaper's story. Pieces of it were already retconned in Dark Discoveries.
Tezzeret's characterization in Kaladesh matches up with the Tezzeret in Agents of Artifice, not the one from Test of Metal. Liliana and Tezzeret are reluctant allies in Test of Metal, and the events between them (and Jace) are never mentioned in Kaladesh, only Agents of Artifice is referenced.
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I think you mean Baltrice. Liliana was antagonistic to Tezzeret in that dross of a book.
Otherwise, you are of course fully right about everything.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)