As more characters interact with or join the Gatewatch Creative will be able to shy away from the original 5. It's mostly a matter of time.
The only non-Gatewatch characters that I think are getting the shaft are the villian walkers. If creative wants to play the comic game they need to have their villians be at least on some level be morally grey. Evil for the sake of evil is ***** writing (looking at some Ob Nix writing and the current handling of Tezz and Nahiri).
Further, as user_938036 pointed out, the whole crew of the Weatherlight had quite a bit of plot armor right up until the end of the saga.
Eh, I wouldn't exactly say that. In their first outing, trying to rescue Sisay from Volrath, they took quite a few casualties. Rofellos and Mirri died. Ertai and Crovax were MIA. Starke was struck blind and Tahngarth was mutated. And, technically, Hanna contracted the Phyrexian plague. Also, remember that they got their asses kicked in the first encounter with Greven and the Predator.
Yeah, sure, at the end of the day it was still trite, fantasy pulp. But the story enforced stakes, you felt as though the characters were in some sort of peril. The same can't be said of the Gatewatch. They've been around for three blocks, as many as the Weatherlight crew were in, and have defeated entities billed as threats to oldwalkers while suffering no losses. That's fine for a Saturday morning cartoon, but a lot of folks, WotC creative among them, bristle at this sort of comparison.
Technically, the Weatherlight crew was around for only *two* blocks, plus two separate sets (Weatherlight and Masques). And in those two blocks, almost everyone of any consequence almost died or died. There were real stakes. Loved ones were dying, people were tortured into hideousness, Karn was forced to constantly crush moggs while he was trying to be a pacifist. Mirri gave up her life for someone she loved. Crovax became a vampire and planar threat. Squee was tortured and killed over and over. Threats were everywhere. Anyone could die (and did).
In the three GW blocks thus far, no one has died. Gideon was almost drowned, but not dead. Chandra was beat up, but not dead. Jace almost went crazy, but didn't. I have no fear, concern, or caring about their wellbeing. That is what I call plot armor, and even if one did die, I am hardly as invested as I was in the Weatherlight crew, which had far more 'real' characters to me.
The whole premise of Magic is Relativism, so a compelling story needs to magnify meta-virtues like courage and prudence. The groundwork is there for these characters. They're complex. I think the only problem is the plot armor.
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Technically, the Weatherlight crew was around for only *two* blocks, plus two separate sets (Weatherlight and Masques). And in those two blocks, almost everyone of any consequence almost died or died. There were real stakes. Loved ones were dying, people were tortured into hideousness, Karn was forced to constantly crush moggs while he was trying to be a pacifist. Mirri gave up her life for someone she loved. Crovax became a vampire and planar threat. Squee was tortured and killed over and over. Threats were everywhere. Anyone could die (and did).
In the three GW blocks thus far, no one has died. Gideon was almost drowned, but not dead. Chandra was beat up, but not dead. Jace almost went crazy, but didn't. I have no fear, concern, or caring about their wellbeing. That is what I call plot armor, and even if one did die, I am hardly as invested as I was in the Weatherlight crew, which had far more 'real' characters to me.
Shrug.
At this moment, I probably have more fear and concern over the wellbeing of Emrakul, despite the overall disaster that was the Eldrazi (but then again I've always been such an ardent supporter of them in the storyline despite them being misused all over the place, so I'm biased to begin with). Emrakul came closest to at least mentally scarring three planeswalkers (Jace, Nissa and Tamiyo), but instead of an arduous route to recovery from on of the Multiverse most incomprehensible threats, we got a few months' timeskip and by the time we skipped over, those scars don't really seem to be mentioned. Emrakul still did a job miles better than UlaKozi, but at this point of hindsight, it still didn't look like it really accomplished anything.
If an incomprehensible embodiment of existence couldn't even mentally scar our heroes long enough, I'm afraid cliche antagonists like Tezzeret can forget about accomplishing anything lasting. Big and flashy, yes, but not lasting. Tezzeret might still be able to later (I'm not seeing him do that this block at least) on account of his planeswalker status, but local antagonists can almost resign themselves to their fate.
Further, as user_938036 pointed out, the whole crew of the Weatherlight had quite a bit of plot armor right up until the end of the saga.
Eh, I wouldn't exactly say that. In their first outing, trying to rescue Sisay from Volrath, they took quite a few casualties. Rofellos and Mirri died. Ertai and Crovax were MIA. Starke was struck blind and Tahngarth was mutated. And, technically, Hanna contracted the Phyrexian plague. Also, remember that they got their asses kicked in the first encounter with Greven and the Predator.
Yeah, sure, at the end of the day it was still trite, fantasy pulp. But the story enforced stakes, you felt as though the characters were in some sort of peril. The same can't be said of the Gatewatch. They've been around for three blocks, as many as the Weatherlight crew were in, and have defeated entities billed as threats to oldwalkers while suffering no losses. That's fine for a Saturday morning cartoon, but a lot of folks, WotC creative among them, bristle at this sort of comparison.
Technically, the Weatherlight crew was around for only *two* blocks, plus two separate sets (Weatherlight and Masques). And in those two blocks, almost everyone of any consequence almost died or died. There were real stakes. Loved ones were dying, people were tortured into hideousness, Karn was forced to constantly crush moggs while he was trying to be a pacifist. Mirri gave up her life for someone she loved. Crovax became a vampire and planar threat. Squee was tortured and killed over and over. Threats were everywhere. Anyone could die (and did).
In the three GW blocks thus far, no one has died. Gideon was almost drowned, but not dead. Chandra was beat up, but not dead. Jace almost went crazy, but didn't. I have no fear, concern, or caring about their wellbeing. That is what I call plot armor, and even if one did die, I am hardly as invested as I was in the Weatherlight crew, which had far more 'real' characters to me.
Shrug.
The problem with that logic is that "death is cheap" rapidly gives way to "DIAA (Darkness Induced Audience Apathy)".
"If there is zero hope of the good guys winning, why should the audience care?"
Say that the Eldrazi did get some hard hits in. Gideon, Chandra are both killed. Jace is driven insane beyond any ability to use his abilities (or even turns evil). Nissa is murdered by Ob Nixilis. Needless to say, Zendikar is screwed, as is Innistrad. Two planes are about to bite the dust, unless you believe Liliana could single-handedly save Innistrad.
So why should the audience care? When every battle turns out like Mirrodin, with the good guys getting their rear ends kicked, the drama shifts from "the heroes can't lose" to "the heroes are incompetent/can't win".
At that point, why would anyone become invested in the survivors or the story?
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Kiora - This isn't so much an issue with a Gatewatch as with the writers, but Kiora was written TERRIBLY in some of the stories. I really wanted to like her but her excessively arrogant and moronic dialogue got in the way. She's still popular, apparently, so hopefully when she returns they can redeem her character, rather than continuing that horrible portrayal. But even if her writing was better, Kiora was still defined by her interactions with the Gatewatch (but then again, who isn't?). Without the Gatewatch, Kiora might have even been BFZ's main character. Again, this would require her dialogue not being physically painful to read. But anyone is a more interesting protagonist than Gideon, right?
Kiora isn't just arrogant, she's an outright fool and unrealistic. She claims she's defeated a true god when it suits her, yet denounces the presence of divinity. I understand the Eldrazi compromised her beliefs - and I'm sorry that foreign beings who could traverse the planes showed up at your home out of nowhere and wrecked it, but something tells me sending a wave to wreck the Meletis shore and stealing a weapon from a god people worship to protect them doesn't make you much different. Let alone messing with ocean ecosystems wherever she goes. Her banter during the Thassa fight was so absurd and unrealistic. No way she could undersell a threat like that. The remorse she felt having murdered Lorthos and the trickers with her irresponsibility and arrogance was far too short-lived. But I do believe she has potential now that Kozilek rightfully exposed her hubris. She still bothered me after that though as I was expecting she's be broken and pondering things rather than hurling entire ocean basins at people. Hopefully the Gatewatch relieves her of the Bident at some point down the line as she's clearly irresponsible.
Something went terribly wrong when i was more worried for Emrakul wellbeign then the Gatewatch...
The idea of the Gatewatch isn't bad, cheesy, but not bad. The execution that it was incredibly atroucious, one of the lowest point in the intire lore.
Tell me about it. Plot armor granting dues ex machina is more frightening than Annihilator on a hard-cast Emrakul. I will say the SOI storyline was conducted rather well, though. But I still get nausea thinking of how BFZ turned out.
The problem with that logic is that "death is cheap" rapidly gives way to "DIAA (Darkness Induced Audience Apathy)".
"If there is zero hope of the good guys winning, why should the audience care?"
Say that the Eldrazi did get some hard hits in. Gideon, Chandra are both killed. Jace is driven insane beyond any ability to use his abilities (or even turns evil). Nissa is murdered by Ob Nixilis. Needless to say, Zendikar is screwed, as is Innistrad. Two planes are about to bite the dust, unless you believe Liliana could single-handedly save Innistrad.
So why should the audience care? When every battle turns out like Mirrodin, with the good guys getting their rear ends kicked, the drama shifts from "the heroes can't lose" to "the heroes are incompetent/can't win".
At that point, why would anyone become invested in the survivors or the story?
Which is why we need to strike the balance (and currently we're on the other end of the scale where "Victory is Cheap/Boring".
You don't kill off/cripple all of the characters, you do it to some of them and drill the point that it was the price for Victory. This way neither Victory nor Death would be cheap and people worry who will be next to pay the price of the next victory? Likewise, in the case of crippling a character, you can use a "loss" to simultaneously recover a character status - a mentally broken Jace could be angered enough by Tezzeret's victory to recover from his mental scars (not the best example, but I was just randomly generating a scenario), so that the recovery doesn't cheapen the initial crippling.
Further, as user_938036 pointed out, the whole crew of the Weatherlight had quite a bit of plot armor right up until the end of the saga.
Eh, I wouldn't exactly say that. In their first outing, trying to rescue Sisay from Volrath, they took quite a few casualties. Rofellos and Mirri died. Ertai and Crovax were MIA. Starke was struck blind and Tahngarth was mutated. And, technically, Hanna contracted the Phyrexian plague. Also, remember that they got their asses kicked in the first encounter with Greven and the Predator.
Yeah, sure, at the end of the day it was still trite, fantasy pulp. But the story enforced stakes, you felt as though the characters were in some sort of peril. The same can't be said of the Gatewatch. They've been around for three blocks, as many as the Weatherlight crew were in, and have defeated entities billed as threats to oldwalkers while suffering no losses. That's fine for a Saturday morning cartoon, but a lot of folks, WotC creative among them, bristle at this sort of comparison.
Technically, the Weatherlight crew was around for only *two* blocks, plus two separate sets (Weatherlight and Masques). And in those two blocks, almost everyone of any consequence almost died or died. There were real stakes. Loved ones were dying, people were tortured into hideousness, Karn was forced to constantly crush moggs while he was trying to be a pacifist. Mirri gave up her life for someone she loved. Crovax became a vampire and planar threat. Squee was tortured and killed over and over. Threats were everywhere. Anyone could die (and did).
In the three GW blocks thus far, no one has died. Gideon was almost drowned, but not dead. Chandra was beat up, but not dead. Jace almost went crazy, but didn't. I have no fear, concern, or caring about their wellbeing. That is what I call plot armor, and even if one did die, I am hardly as invested as I was in the Weatherlight crew, which had far more 'real' characters to me.
Shrug.
The problem with that logic is that "death is cheap" rapidly gives way to "DIAA (Darkness Induced Audience Apathy)".
"If there is zero hope of the good guys winning, why should the audience care?"
Say that the Eldrazi did get some hard hits in. Gideon, Chandra are both killed. Jace is driven insane beyond any ability to use his abilities (or even turns evil). Nissa is murdered by Ob Nixilis. Needless to say, Zendikar is screwed, as is Innistrad. Two planes are about to bite the dust, unless you believe Liliana could single-handedly save Innistrad.
So why should the audience care? When every battle turns out like Mirrodin, with the good guys getting their rear ends kicked, the drama shifts from "the heroes can't lose" to "the heroes are incompetent/can't win".
At that point, why would anyone become invested in the survivors or the story?
1) The "Death is Cheap" trope refers to death being treated as a slap on the wrist: what you're describing is the transition from "Anyone Can Die" to "Everyone WILL Die" to "DIAA".
2) Surely Wizards shoud be able to hit a middleground between "There's no threat to the Gatewatch" and "Everyone in the Gatewatch will die painful and meaningless Deaths that make GRRM tell us to cut it out"? I've said it Before, but I'd have preferred if the Gatewatch had to truly unseal the Eldrazi from Zendikar entire, like what was implied when Jace had his little chat with Ugin.
They fight the Eldrazi, destroying thousands of Spawn, lesser- and greater Eldrazi at Seagate, alongside the mortal defenders, but when Ulamog shows up... their attempt to seal it fails, and their most powerful spells barely seem to affect the thing, until ultimately, in order to save what little's left of Zendikar, they "pull the spike from Ulamog's hand".
Zendikar is saved, but the Eldrazi are now free to roam the Multiverse - and the planeswalkers swear an Oath that they will find a way to stop the Eldrazi once again, and to deal with Bolas, along with nayone else who would threaten the Multiverse in such a fashion.
Further, as user_938036 pointed out, the whole crew of the Weatherlight had quite a bit of plot armor right up until the end of the saga.
Eh, I wouldn't exactly say that. In their first outing, trying to rescue Sisay from Volrath, they took quite a few casualties. Rofellos and Mirri died. Ertai and Crovax were MIA. Starke was struck blind and Tahngarth was mutated. And, technically, Hanna contracted the Phyrexian plague. Also, remember that they got their asses kicked in the first encounter with Greven and the Predator.
Yeah, sure, at the end of the day it was still trite, fantasy pulp. But the story enforced stakes, you felt as though the characters were in some sort of peril. The same can't be said of the Gatewatch. They've been around for three blocks, as many as the Weatherlight crew were in, and have defeated entities billed as threats to oldwalkers while suffering no losses. That's fine for a Saturday morning cartoon, but a lot of folks, WotC creative among them, bristle at this sort of comparison.
Technically, the Weatherlight crew was around for only *two* blocks, plus two separate sets (Weatherlight and Masques). And in those two blocks, almost everyone of any consequence almost died or died. There were real stakes. Loved ones were dying, people were tortured into hideousness, Karn was forced to constantly crush moggs while he was trying to be a pacifist. Mirri gave up her life for someone she loved. Crovax became a vampire and planar threat. Squee was tortured and killed over and over. Threats were everywhere. Anyone could die (and did).
In the three GW blocks thus far, no one has died. Gideon was almost drowned, but not dead. Chandra was beat up, but not dead. Jace almost went crazy, but didn't. I have no fear, concern, or caring about their wellbeing. That is what I call plot armor, and even if one did die, I am hardly as invested as I was in the Weatherlight crew, which had far more 'real' characters to me.
Shrug.
The problem with that logic is that "death is cheap" rapidly gives way to "DIAA (Darkness Induced Audience Apathy)".
"If there is zero hope of the good guys winning, why should the audience care?"
Say that the Eldrazi did get some hard hits in. Gideon, Chandra are both killed. Jace is driven insane beyond any ability to use his abilities (or even turns evil). Nissa is murdered by Ob Nixilis. Needless to say, Zendikar is screwed, as is Innistrad. Two planes are about to bite the dust, unless you believe Liliana could single-handedly save Innistrad.
So why should the audience care? When every battle turns out like Mirrodin, with the good guys getting their rear ends kicked, the drama shifts from "the heroes can't lose" to "the heroes are incompetent/can't win".
At that point, why would anyone become invested in the survivors or the story?
1) The "Death is Cheap" trope refers to death being treated as a slap on the wrist: what you're describing is the transition from "Anyone Can Die" to "Everyone WILL Die" to "DIAA".
2) Surely Wizards shoud be able to hit a middleground between "There's no threat to the Gatewatch" and "Everyone in the Gatewatch will die painful and meaningless Deaths that make GRRM tell us to cut it out"? I've said it Before, but I'd have preferred if the Gatewatch had to truly unseal the Eldrazi from Zendikar entire, like what was implied when Jace had his little chat with Ugin.
They fight the Eldrazi, destroying thousands of Spawn, lesser- and greater Eldrazi at Seagate, alongside the mortal defenders, but when Ulamog shows up... their attempt to seal it fails, and their most powerful spells barely seem to affect the thing, until ultimately, in order to save what little's left of Zendikar, they "pull the spike from Ulamog's hand".
Zendikar is saved, but the Eldrazi are now free to roam the Multiverse - and the planeswalkers swear an Oath that they will find a way to stop the Eldrazi once again, and to deal with Bolas, along with nayone else who would threaten the Multiverse in such a fashion.
Yeah, I agree the balance is what's important. I wasn't advocating everyone dying, but that there be some stakes and risk. The Weatherlight crew were heroes because they endured and persevered, despite how it seemed that often the deck was stacked against them. Risk and death made their lives and relationships that much more important. And at the end of the Weatherlight tale, Sisay, Tahngarth, Squee, Orim, and Karn survive. Five out of the eleven of the Tempest block crew? And three of those original eleven were or became villains, so five out of eight heroes survive through eight sets. Not bad. And the Eldrazi situation you give above still gives a 'victory' while also ensuring a future threat, and an actual reasonable reason for the Gatewatch (whose formation always seemed hamfisted to me). "I'll keep watch," because we f-ed up.
It's all about balance. Make the risk real. They don't even have to die. As someone brought up above, say Jace is messed up mentally from Emrakul. His mindraked mental state either tries to recover in Ravnica, or goes to Kaladesh all jumbled. Tezzeret shakes memories and feelings loose. His weakened mental state might break open old memories. Jace remembers his home plane. Now after Kaladesh he could be doing something else instead of tailing the Gatewatch. But for a while there, you might wonder if Jace will ever recover.
Chandra actually had a breaking point this set, which was good to see. And if Gideon had some lingering emotional fallout from almost dying to Nixilis, that would make the stakes real, because the character would *know* that they were real. Ajani knows the stakes are real because of his brother and Elspeth, which is why he seems so seasoned and 'wise,' for lack of a better word.
So risk and stakes do not require death. Death should be used at specific times to drive the point home, unlike GRRM. Mirri's death was emotional because she gave up everything for the unrequited love of another. Hanna slowly died (in a believable, painful way) to break Gerrard, who would then eventually rise up to meet his destiny and save the world. Those deaths meant something. They made you feel something.
But you don't *need* death. Tahngarth's torture made him grow from his focus on beauty and perfection, to find value in himself and others beyond appearances. Karn would finally break his vow of pacifism, after being made to kill one living thing after another, to save a life that was more important to him than his vow.
Traumatizing events can break a character, leaving cracks through which they can grow and develop. So risk and stakes do a lot of heavy lifting, don't necessitate death, and work best in balance with victory and accomplishment. Without it, you get hollow, emotionless victories, which does not a good story make.
Chandra actually had a breaking point this set, which was good to see. And if Gideon had some lingering emotional fallout from almost dying to Nixilis, that would make the stakes real, because the character would *know* that they were real. Ajani knows the stakes are real because of his brother and Elspeth, which is why he seems so seasoned and 'wise,' for lack of a better word.
Heck, what if Ob Nixilis physically maimed Gideon? Say he chopped off Gideon's arm? He still takes the oath, but he has to sit out Shadows Over Innistrad while he heals. You know in the back of your mind, that he's going to want revenge on Nixilis someday. He can't use his sural anymore. Some of his spells don't work. Maybe he starts subconsciously starts focusing on defensive magic. Then when we get to Kaladesh, he gets a new chrome aether-fuelled prosthetic arm or something. Maybe when he sees Tezzeret, there's some hesitation, as he might believe Tezzeret might have been maimed in a similar fashion. Maybe we get some deep emotion from him when he meets Ajani and sees the leonin's missing eye.
Suddenly Gideon goes from being a generic hero to a character with potential and purpose.
Gideon losing an arm… seriously? Gatewatch doesn't need to have members killed off or horribly maimed right out the get-go. The problem is how absurd defeating the Eldrazi was, regardless of how situational that was. Emrakul and SOI/EMN were an example of properly doing things. It both was and was not a victory of them - and a haunting ending appropriate for the setting too, having to wonder about Emrakul's intentions all along while she lurks in the moon willingly. But for how long?
The problem is the very battle which formed the Gatewatch isn't believable and didn't add dimension to the team, so the group formed on a questionable foundation by killing off a major threat. Fortunately their actions may have consequences as Ugin demonstrates, but for the time being it was a sour event for many to see major villains taken out like that by characters that haven't been adequately developed together (and for some, not enough alone, either).
I think the issue is plunging them into conflict all the time. Gideon has no hope or realizing his potential if he's just whipping surral back and forth. Kaladesh allowed Chandra to be more than comic relief. Nissa has potential as a wise stoic but needs more screen time despite having much of it in BFZ that didn't establish her enough (but does give her potential in her rivalry with Nixlis). Jace and Lilliana to me are the best examples of well-formed characters given Jace's past on Vryn and memory loss (a very good plot point) and Lillana's demon debt, her personality and her rich backstory with Jace, Tezzeret, Bolas and even the Raven Man, let alone her own Origin story.
Gideon seriously needs to be explored more as a character and fortunately we have Return to Theros to anticipate for that. I can see the GW concept headed in the right direction with Emrakul and do anticipate Amonkhet being a defeat for them that has them re-evaluating themselves, their purpose and the value of the oaths they've taken. No one needs to die or lose freaking limbs - but the Eldrazi proved their actions have consequences. Those are not immediate consequences, and I think Bolas is just the villain to deliver immediate ones that send them all back to the drawing board and allows for some dimension. If done right, having them ponder things can do BFZ and the distant consequences of that some justice, actually.
And let's not forget Bolas orchestrated the release of the titans that the GW formed to "defeat." I think something deeper is brewing which is why I'm choosing to remain neutral until I see more of this story method unfold. I do see potential in it. Nissa's home was harmed enough by Nixlis to maim her emotionally, all GW carry some sort of burden and backstory, Nahiri is out there - there's potential.
And let's not forget Bolas orchestrated the release of the titans that the GW formed to "defeat." I think something deeper is brewing which is why I'm choosing to remain neutral until I see more of this story method unfold. I do see potential in it. Nissa's home was harmed enough by Nixlis to maim her emotionally, all GW carry some sort of burden and backstory, Nahiri is out there - there's potential.
At this point of time, I'm empathizing more with Bolas than Ugin. We always assume Bolas is doing something "evil", but that may not be true. Sure, he's still solidly in the "evil" side (and probably never leaving) but unlike Ugin, he witnessed the Time Rifts and during that period he has demonstrated his willingness to "help" against something threatening him as well as long as the "helping" itself doesn't affect him negatively (I had to be this specific because I'm sure Bolas is the kind who will go "we'll go down together" if he's forced to the lose-lose corner).
At this point of time Ugin is the morally ambiguous scientist who imprisoned the Eldrazi "For Science!", while Bolas is a known villain who does things for either his benefit or his survival. The Eldrazi, being an unknown factor could very much mean their orchestrated release could still be for survival reasons rather than benefit. Of course, all this hinges on what we don't know about the Eldrazi and how much each Dragon Planeswalker knows about them.
So you're right, there's a lot of hidden potential there and it doesn't even have to be the cliche ones we can see coming. Mainly due to the Eldrazi being so ambiguous (as well as Ugin and Bolas recently), but because of it so many realms of possibilities are open.
From the Amohnket picture it looked rather civil so Bolas isn't intirelly generic EVIL. Yes hes msot likelly a tyrant but its seems have order at first impression.
I don't mind an interplanar organization of ANY purpose, but I don't particularly like any of the Gatewatch member either, save Liliana perhaps. There aren't enough depth in each of them, the Origin retcon/lore did not add much to their character either.
Character development requires time, place, and the people themselves, what hinders the Gatewatch character development is that there is always an event bigger than all of them, therefore each of them becomes a gear of a machine rather than having a chance to show readers more of who they are; assuming there's more than shown thus far. Cheap romance and bickering aren't gonna save it, they need to BREAK the Gatewatch apart, allow them to learn and develop separately while holding the same purpose, so they could grow.
Weatherlight + 9 Titans were probably the closest thing to Gatewatch, and it was much more successful. For starter, instead of being pure of heart they all have some dark side: Gerrard holds conflicting heritage, Urza is selfish to the core, Corvex turncoated, Ertai vanity, etc. No one is biblically perfect, therefore watching Gatewatch doing things with 100% certainty pains me. I'd rather watch a character fights him/herself mentally, than watching Gideon debating with Liliana about the righteous course.
Chandra is going through a good upgrade in Kaladesh story, I hope to see more for other characters.
To throw more echoes around, I like the idea of the gatewatch and I'm iffy on the members, loving Ajani, liking Chnadra and Liliana, neutral about Jace and dislike Gideon (I like Ajani and Elspeth more as white walkers) and Nissa (the major shift they made in her character and the fact she is the only mono-green walker).
BtZ was horrible to start them off as a group and left a bad taste in peoples mouths from the bad writing and what I believe was the biggest strike people seem to dislike is they killed two of the titans. Honestly I'd hope they just destroy the physical from and we'd have the threat of them someday reforming. And while I don't fully count Emrakul sealing herself a full victory for the gatewatch, it wasn't the best timing to have her sealed away right after her siblings? where killed.
I think people are also a little too picky on the plot armor issue. It could be handled better but in most stories the main character(s) will have plot armor until near the end of storylines, unless you are in game of thrones. I think one issues with this is the fact we get a rough outline of the story in the cards which does lower the tension. Being episodic in nature also means the main cast can't be development as fast.
However, I've seen so many people who both played magic for awhile and many who just started and they all have been getting into the lore and story more. Got a friend who's a huge Jace fan so he's been reading older stuff of his. I also like we seem to finally be moving along with a few storylines that have been left dangling.
Yeah, you're definitely right there. The storylines lately have been pretty uneven, and as Tiro below this post was saying, the block change probably had a pretty big effect on story telling. To me, Emrakul or Innistrad felt like a direct problem with this. BFZ was originally a three set block, and I feel like they realized they couldn't combine two eldrazi titans into one set, so they thought ".. well, Innistrad was insanely popular, so maybe we'll just make that into a set".
Or, maybe they were planning an Innistrad set but changed the story to involve Emrakul? I personally HATED it, because Eldrazi's got incredibly tiring, especially with how dull (imo) BFZ was. Maybe if they did it a few years later, and made Emrakul into a sorta' Lovecraftian thing more, I would've liked it.
From Maro's Odds and End: Eldritch Moon he says the idea of Emrakul being a cosmic horror element in a return to Innistrad set was a story element before BtZ was being designed. At one point BfZ* and SoI* where both planned but were a few blocks apart. I assume in this time, Emrakul would have escaped being burned and was gonna return in SoI in the story drafts. But then something cause SoI to be moved to right after BtZ and the two set block structure was decided on.
So bottom-line was Eldrazi where always gonna be an element in Innistrad 2.
They fight the Eldrazi, destroying thousands of Spawn, lesser- and greater Eldrazi at Seagate, alongside the mortal defenders, but when Ulamog shows up... their attempt to seal it fails, and their most powerful spells barely seem to affect the thing, until ultimately, in order to save what little's left of Zendikar, they "pull the spike from Ulamog's hand".
Zendikar is saved, but the Eldrazi are now free to roam the Multiverse - and the planeswalkers swear an Oath that they will find a way to stop the Eldrazi once again, and to deal with Bolas, along with nayone else who would threaten the Multiverse in such a fashion.
The "spike" was already removed from the eldrazi. While the battle Chandra, Jace and Sarkhan had freed them from stasis, Nissa destroyed the "spike" that had trapped them to Zendikar.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
And let's not forget Bolas orchestrated the release of the titans that the GW formed to "defeat." I think something deeper is brewing which is why I'm choosing to remain neutral until I see more of this story method unfold. I do see potential in it. Nissa's home was harmed enough by Nixlis to maim her emotionally, all GW carry some sort of burden and backstory, Nahiri is out there - there's potential.
At this point of time, I'm empathizing more with Bolas than Ugin. We always assume Bolas is doing something "evil", but that may not be true. Sure, he's still solidly in the "evil" side (and probably never leaving) but unlike Ugin, he witnessed the Time Rifts and during that period he has demonstrated his willingness to "help" against something threatening him as well as long as the "helping" itself doesn't affect him negatively (I had to be this specific because I'm sure Bolas is the kind who will go "we'll go down together" if he's forced to the lose-lose corner).
At this point of time Ugin is the morally ambiguous scientist who imprisoned the Eldrazi "For Science!", while Bolas is a known villain who does things for either his benefit or his survival. The Eldrazi, being an unknown factor could very much mean their orchestrated release could still be for survival reasons rather than benefit. Of course, all this hinges on what we don't know about the Eldrazi and how much each Dragon Planeswalker knows about them.
So you're right, there's a lot of hidden potential there and it doesn't even have to be the cliche ones we can see coming. Mainly due to the Eldrazi being so ambiguous (as well as Ugin and Bolas recently), but because of it so many realms of possibilities are open.
Ugin imprisoned the Eldrazi because they were destroying worlds and killing millions. He didn't kill them because he feared even greater catastrophe.
Ugin imprisoned the Eldrazi because they were destroying worlds and killing millions. He didn't kill them because he feared even greater catastrophe.
Call me skeptical, but I don't think Ugin really cares about the Eldrazi destroying worlds. Yes, he said he didn't want Tarkir to be next, but I suspect even that was just a "supporting excuse" he used to make Sorin more enthusiastic about the whole imprisonment.
Yes, he ultimately trapped the Eldrazi because he feared greater catastrophe, but that was pretty much the whole and only reason - he probably wanted to see what happens to the multiversal ecosystem without the Eldrazi but didn't want it to be irreversible just in case he couldn't deal with the actual consequences (which has its own loose ends because it's based on the assumption that releasing the Eldrazi would fix the problem in time, but that's another issue). Everything else he said ("for the good of the multiverse" and "let's protect our homeplanes") honestly could have been lies he made up just to convince the other 2 oldwalkers because he needed them to assist him for his actual purpose.
He way less temperamental than Bolas for sure, but the way he expressed his "disappointment" with Jace/The Gatewatch after UlaKozi were killed was literally "You ruined my experiment, I've no choice but to fall back to my last defenses against whatever might have emerged from my experiment now" (of course he put it in a more condescending way, but the point is the same).
While I can understand why people are inclined to believe Ugin, I'm skeptical (and paranoid) enough to not take his words at face value, because other than his words, we know as much of his motives as we know the purpose of the Eldrazi. We (as the readers) have not yet been treated to his internal thought process and that is enough for me to not trust Ugin.
Ugin imprisoned the Eldrazi because they were destroying worlds and killing millions. He didn't kill them because he feared even greater catastrophe.
Call me skeptical, but I don't think Ugin really cares about the Eldrazi destroying worlds. Yes, he said he didn't want Tarkir to be next, but I suspect even that was just a "supporting excuse" he used to make Sorin more enthusiastic about the whole imprisonment.
Yes, he ultimately trapped the Eldrazi because he feared greater catastrophe, but that was pretty much the whole and only reason - he probably wanted to see what happens to the multiversal ecosystem without the Eldrazi but didn't want it to be irreversible just in case he couldn't deal with the actual consequences (which has its own loose ends because it's based on the assumption that releasing the Eldrazi would fix the problem in time, but that's another issue). Everything else he said ("for the good of the multiverse" and "let's protect our homeplanes") honestly could have been lies he made up just to convince the other 2 oldwalkers because he needed them to assist him for his actual purpose.
He way less temperamental than Bolas for sure, but the way he expressed his "disappointment" with Jace/The Gatewatch after UlaKozi were killed was literally "You ruined my experiment, I've no choice but to fall back to my last defenses against whatever might have emerged from my experiment now" (of course he put it in a more condescending way, but the point is the same).
While I can understand why people are inclined to believe Ugin, I'm skeptical (and paranoid) enough to not take his words at face value, because other than his words, we know as much of his motives as we know the purpose of the Eldrazi. We (as the readers) have not yet been treated to his internal thought process and that is enough for me to not trust Ugin.
I think it's one thing to say that you don't trust Ugin. (You shouldn't, honestly. We don't know enough about him really.) But it's another thing entirely to imply that you might trust Bolas more. (Unless you just mean that you can always trust in Bolas to be Bolas; load your family into a bus, throw you under that bus, and then set that bus on fire, the second it looks to be in his own best interest.)
Ugin imprisoned the Eldrazi because they were destroying worlds and killing millions. He didn't kill them because he feared even greater catastrophe.
Call me skeptical, but I don't think Ugin really cares about the Eldrazi destroying worlds. Yes, he said he didn't want Tarkir to be next, but I suspect even that was just a "supporting excuse" he used to make Sorin more enthusiastic about the whole imprisonment.
Yes, he ultimately trapped the Eldrazi because he feared greater catastrophe, but that was pretty much the whole and only reason - he probably wanted to see what happens to the multiversal ecosystem without the Eldrazi but didn't want it to be irreversible just in case he couldn't deal with the actual consequences (which has its own loose ends because it's based on the assumption that releasing the Eldrazi would fix the problem in time, but that's another issue). Everything else he said ("for the good of the multiverse" and "let's protect our homeplanes") honestly could have been lies he made up just to convince the other 2 oldwalkers because he needed them to assist him for his actual purpose.
He way less temperamental than Bolas for sure, but the way he expressed his "disappointment" with Jace/The Gatewatch after UlaKozi were killed was literally "You ruined my experiment, I've no choice but to fall back to my last defenses against whatever might have emerged from my experiment now" (of course he put it in a more condescending way, but the point is the same).
While I can understand why people are inclined to believe Ugin, I'm skeptical (and paranoid) enough to not take his words at face value, because other than his words, we know as much of his motives as we know the purpose of the Eldrazi. We (as the readers) have not yet been treated to his internal thought process and that is enough for me to not trust Ugin.
I think it's one thing to say that you don't trust Ugin. (You shouldn't, honestly. We don't know enough about him really.) But it's another thing entirely to imply that you might trust Bolas more. (Unless you just mean that you can always trust in Bolas to be Bolas; load your family into a bus, throw you under that bus, and then set that bus on fire, the second it looks to be in his own best interest.)
While I don't think Ugin was lying, it is a fair point: Bolas is more predictable in that we know he'll do what's best for Bolas, and everyone else can just deal with it - so he's on the Evil spectum of the Alignment Chart. Ugin, however, we don't really know whether he's on the Neutral or Good spectrums yet.
Ugin imprisoned the Eldrazi because they were destroying worlds and killing millions. He didn't kill them because he feared even greater catastrophe.
Call me skeptical, but I don't think Ugin really cares about the Eldrazi destroying worlds. Yes, he said he didn't want Tarkir to be next, but I suspect even that was just a "supporting excuse" he used to make Sorin more enthusiastic about the whole imprisonment.
Yes, he ultimately trapped the Eldrazi because he feared greater catastrophe, but that was pretty much the whole and only reason - he probably wanted to see what happens to the multiversal ecosystem without the Eldrazi but didn't want it to be irreversible just in case he couldn't deal with the actual consequences (which has its own loose ends because it's based on the assumption that releasing the Eldrazi would fix the problem in time, but that's another issue). Everything else he said ("for the good of the multiverse" and "let's protect our homeplanes") honestly could have been lies he made up just to convince the other 2 oldwalkers because he needed them to assist him for his actual purpose.
He way less temperamental than Bolas for sure, but the way he expressed his "disappointment" with Jace/The Gatewatch after UlaKozi were killed was literally "You ruined my experiment, I've no choice but to fall back to my last defenses against whatever might have emerged from my experiment now" (of course he put it in a more condescending way, but the point is the same).
While I can understand why people are inclined to believe Ugin, I'm skeptical (and paranoid) enough to not take his words at face value, because other than his words, we know as much of his motives as we know the purpose of the Eldrazi. We (as the readers) have not yet been treated to his internal thought process and that is enough for me to not trust Ugin.
I think it's one thing to say that you don't trust Ugin. (You shouldn't, honestly. We don't know enough about him really.) But it's another thing entirely to imply that you might trust Bolas more. (Unless you just mean that you can always trust in Bolas to be Bolas; load your family into a bus, throw you under that bus, and then set that bus on fire, the second it looks to be in his own best interest.)
While I don't think Ugin was lying, it is a fair point: Bolas is more predictable in that we know he'll do what's best for Bolas, and everyone else can just deal with it - so he's on the Evil spectum of the Alignment Chart. Ugin, however, we don't really know whether he's on the Neutral or Good spectrums yet.
At this point I'd be a little disappointed if there wasn't a little more insidious reason Ugin didn't want the Eldrazi killed - but even if that is the case, I wouldn't think it would be for reasons one could consider "evil", but Ugin strikes me as a very big picture "ends justify the means" sort of character.
I think it's one thing to say that you don't trust Ugin. (You shouldn't, honestly. We don't know enough about him really.) But it's another thing entirely to imply that you might trust Bolas more. (Unless you just mean that you can always trust in Bolas to be Bolas; load your family into a bus, throw you under that bus, and then set that bus on fire, the second it looks to be in his own best interest.)
Yeah, that's what I meant. You're at least always on your guard against Bolas and given his track record, you probably know exactly where, when and how to guard against him as well. If Ugin turns to backstab you, you're either unprepared, or the effort spent to be on your guard against Ugin will ultimately be more exhausting than the effort spent on the known quantity which is Bolas.
Ugin's "big picture/long term views" is what makes him untrustworthy to me at least, because it means he could still jolly well be "evil" since "big picture/long term" villains usually have the ability to play a facade (be it good or neutral) for the longest time possible and Ugin definitely has the age to keep up that act. I mean, yes in reality if his facade is going to outplay your entire lifespan it shouldn't really matter to you, but seeing it as a storytelling trope for us bluntly, I don't see WotC keeping Ugin's motives as an enigma forever, so at some point we're probably get his true alliances established. Or maybe they will, but then I will still stand by what I pretty much said, except since Ugin outlives us (and perhaps even the game/franchise), it doesn't really matter to us at that point anymore.
Yeah, you're definitely right there. The storylines lately have been pretty uneven, and as Tiro below this post was saying, the block change probably had a pretty big effect on story telling. To me, Emrakul or Innistrad felt like a direct problem with this. BFZ was originally a three set block, and I feel like they realized they couldn't combine two eldrazi titans into one set, so they thought ".. well, Innistrad was insanely popular, so maybe we'll just make that into a set".
Or, maybe they were planning an Innistrad set but changed the story to involve Emrakul? I personally HATED it, because Eldrazi's got incredibly tiring, especially with how dull (imo) BFZ was. Maybe if they did it a few years later, and made Emrakul into a sorta' Lovecraftian thing more, I would've liked it.
From Maro's Odds and End: Eldritch Moon he says the idea of Emrakul being a cosmic horror element in a return to Innistrad set was a story element before BtZ was being designed. At one point BfZ* and SoI* where both planned but were a few blocks apart. I assume in this time, Emrakul would have escaped being burned and was gonna return in SoI in the story drafts. But then something cause SoI to be moved to right after BtZ and the two set block structure was decided on.
So bottom-line was Eldrazi where always gonna be an element in Innistrad 2.
Yeah, that makes sense and all, and I feel like I would've liked it more, if we didn't JUST have an entire eldrazi block, and a pretty lame one at that
Also, agree with the Nissa change. She could've had AMAZING character development, from being a straight up racist to someone that realizes every life is valuable. Instead, they're trying (or already have?) retconned it so she was also peaceful and loving. Like, really? Not only that, but as mentioned, she dabbled in black mana too as opposed to be strictly mono-green.
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The only non-Gatewatch characters that I think are getting the shaft are the villian walkers. If creative wants to play the comic game they need to have their villians be at least on some level be morally grey. Evil for the sake of evil is ***** writing (looking at some Ob Nix writing and the current handling of Tezz and Nahiri).
I think Jays point about the problem being more with the stories to this point more so than the Gatewatch itself is the biggest problem right now.
Technically, the Weatherlight crew was around for only *two* blocks, plus two separate sets (Weatherlight and Masques). And in those two blocks, almost everyone of any consequence almost died or died. There were real stakes. Loved ones were dying, people were tortured into hideousness, Karn was forced to constantly crush moggs while he was trying to be a pacifist. Mirri gave up her life for someone she loved. Crovax became a vampire and planar threat. Squee was tortured and killed over and over. Threats were everywhere. Anyone could die (and did).
In the three GW blocks thus far, no one has died. Gideon was almost drowned, but not dead. Chandra was beat up, but not dead. Jace almost went crazy, but didn't. I have no fear, concern, or caring about their wellbeing. That is what I call plot armor, and even if one did die, I am hardly as invested as I was in the Weatherlight crew, which had far more 'real' characters to me.
Shrug.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
At this moment, I probably have more fear and concern over the wellbeing of Emrakul, despite the overall disaster that was the Eldrazi (but then again I've always been such an ardent supporter of them in the storyline despite them being misused all over the place, so I'm biased to begin with). Emrakul came closest to at least mentally scarring three planeswalkers (Jace, Nissa and Tamiyo), but instead of an arduous route to recovery from on of the Multiverse most incomprehensible threats, we got a few months' timeskip and by the time we skipped over, those scars don't really seem to be mentioned. Emrakul still did a job miles better than UlaKozi, but at this point of hindsight, it still didn't look like it really accomplished anything.
If an incomprehensible embodiment of existence couldn't even mentally scar our heroes long enough, I'm afraid cliche antagonists like Tezzeret can forget about accomplishing anything lasting. Big and flashy, yes, but not lasting. Tezzeret might still be able to later (I'm not seeing him do that this block at least) on account of his planeswalker status, but local antagonists can almost resign themselves to their fate.
The idea of the Gatewatch isn't bad, cheesy, but not bad. The execution that it was incredibly atroucious, one of the lowest point in the intire lore.
The problem with that logic is that "death is cheap" rapidly gives way to "DIAA (Darkness Induced Audience Apathy)".
"If there is zero hope of the good guys winning, why should the audience care?"
Say that the Eldrazi did get some hard hits in. Gideon, Chandra are both killed. Jace is driven insane beyond any ability to use his abilities (or even turns evil). Nissa is murdered by Ob Nixilis. Needless to say, Zendikar is screwed, as is Innistrad. Two planes are about to bite the dust, unless you believe Liliana could single-handedly save Innistrad.
So why should the audience care? When every battle turns out like Mirrodin, with the good guys getting their rear ends kicked, the drama shifts from "the heroes can't lose" to "the heroes are incompetent/can't win".
At that point, why would anyone become invested in the survivors or the story?
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Tell me about it. Plot armor granting dues ex machina is more frightening than Annihilator on a hard-cast Emrakul. I will say the SOI storyline was conducted rather well, though. But I still get nausea thinking of how BFZ turned out.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Which is why we need to strike the balance (and currently we're on the other end of the scale where "Victory is Cheap/Boring".
You don't kill off/cripple all of the characters, you do it to some of them and drill the point that it was the price for Victory. This way neither Victory nor Death would be cheap and people worry who will be next to pay the price of the next victory? Likewise, in the case of crippling a character, you can use a "loss" to simultaneously recover a character status - a mentally broken Jace could be angered enough by Tezzeret's victory to recover from his mental scars (not the best example, but I was just randomly generating a scenario), so that the recovery doesn't cheapen the initial crippling.
1) The "Death is Cheap" trope refers to death being treated as a slap on the wrist: what you're describing is the transition from "Anyone Can Die" to "Everyone WILL Die" to "DIAA".
2) Surely Wizards shoud be able to hit a middleground between "There's no threat to the Gatewatch" and "Everyone in the Gatewatch will die painful and meaningless Deaths that make GRRM tell us to cut it out"? I've said it Before, but I'd have preferred if the Gatewatch had to truly unseal the Eldrazi from Zendikar entire, like what was implied when Jace had his little chat with Ugin.
"The Eldrazi titans do not dwell in physical space," said Ugin. "They are creatures of the Blind Eternities, and it is in the Eternities that they remain."
"Until they manifest physically, you mean?"
"No," said Ugin. "I meant what I said. Ulamog remains in the Eternities."
"Then what did I see heading toward Sea Gate?"
"You saw a portion of him," said Ugin. "A projection. Imagine that you reach your hand into a pond. The fish below the surface sees a five-headed monster, and cannot perceive the man attached to it. It mistakes a hangnail for an eye because the truth is beyond its imagining. You see?"
"And when you trapped them . . ."
"Like driving a spike through the hand," said Ugin. "The man will not die, but neither will he trouble other ponds. 'Killing' Ulamog's physical form would be like cutting off the hand. The man might be diminished, but he would survive—and he would be freed."
They fight the Eldrazi, destroying thousands of Spawn, lesser- and greater Eldrazi at Seagate, alongside the mortal defenders, but when Ulamog shows up... their attempt to seal it fails, and their most powerful spells barely seem to affect the thing, until ultimately, in order to save what little's left of Zendikar, they "pull the spike from Ulamog's hand".
Zendikar is saved, but the Eldrazi are now free to roam the Multiverse - and the planeswalkers swear an Oath that they will find a way to stop the Eldrazi once again, and to deal with Bolas, along with nayone else who would threaten the Multiverse in such a fashion.
Yeah, I agree the balance is what's important. I wasn't advocating everyone dying, but that there be some stakes and risk. The Weatherlight crew were heroes because they endured and persevered, despite how it seemed that often the deck was stacked against them. Risk and death made their lives and relationships that much more important. And at the end of the Weatherlight tale, Sisay, Tahngarth, Squee, Orim, and Karn survive. Five out of the eleven of the Tempest block crew? And three of those original eleven were or became villains, so five out of eight heroes survive through eight sets. Not bad. And the Eldrazi situation you give above still gives a 'victory' while also ensuring a future threat, and an actual reasonable reason for the Gatewatch (whose formation always seemed hamfisted to me). "I'll keep watch," because we f-ed up.
It's all about balance. Make the risk real. They don't even have to die. As someone brought up above, say Jace is messed up mentally from Emrakul. His mindraked mental state either tries to recover in Ravnica, or goes to Kaladesh all jumbled. Tezzeret shakes memories and feelings loose. His weakened mental state might break open old memories. Jace remembers his home plane. Now after Kaladesh he could be doing something else instead of tailing the Gatewatch. But for a while there, you might wonder if Jace will ever recover.
Chandra actually had a breaking point this set, which was good to see. And if Gideon had some lingering emotional fallout from almost dying to Nixilis, that would make the stakes real, because the character would *know* that they were real. Ajani knows the stakes are real because of his brother and Elspeth, which is why he seems so seasoned and 'wise,' for lack of a better word.
So risk and stakes do not require death. Death should be used at specific times to drive the point home, unlike GRRM. Mirri's death was emotional because she gave up everything for the unrequited love of another. Hanna slowly died (in a believable, painful way) to break Gerrard, who would then eventually rise up to meet his destiny and save the world. Those deaths meant something. They made you feel something.
But you don't *need* death. Tahngarth's torture made him grow from his focus on beauty and perfection, to find value in himself and others beyond appearances. Karn would finally break his vow of pacifism, after being made to kill one living thing after another, to save a life that was more important to him than his vow.
Traumatizing events can break a character, leaving cracks through which they can grow and develop. So risk and stakes do a lot of heavy lifting, don't necessitate death, and work best in balance with victory and accomplishment. Without it, you get hollow, emotionless victories, which does not a good story make.
Typed this on my phone, apologies for any typos.
Heck, what if Ob Nixilis physically maimed Gideon? Say he chopped off Gideon's arm? He still takes the oath, but he has to sit out Shadows Over Innistrad while he heals. You know in the back of your mind, that he's going to want revenge on Nixilis someday. He can't use his sural anymore. Some of his spells don't work. Maybe he starts subconsciously starts focusing on defensive magic. Then when we get to Kaladesh, he gets a new chrome aether-fuelled prosthetic arm or something. Maybe when he sees Tezzeret, there's some hesitation, as he might believe Tezzeret might have been maimed in a similar fashion. Maybe we get some deep emotion from him when he meets Ajani and sees the leonin's missing eye.
Suddenly Gideon goes from being a generic hero to a character with potential and purpose.
The problem is the very battle which formed the Gatewatch isn't believable and didn't add dimension to the team, so the group formed on a questionable foundation by killing off a major threat. Fortunately their actions may have consequences as Ugin demonstrates, but for the time being it was a sour event for many to see major villains taken out like that by characters that haven't been adequately developed together (and for some, not enough alone, either).
I think the issue is plunging them into conflict all the time. Gideon has no hope or realizing his potential if he's just whipping surral back and forth. Kaladesh allowed Chandra to be more than comic relief. Nissa has potential as a wise stoic but needs more screen time despite having much of it in BFZ that didn't establish her enough (but does give her potential in her rivalry with Nixlis). Jace and Lilliana to me are the best examples of well-formed characters given Jace's past on Vryn and memory loss (a very good plot point) and Lillana's demon debt, her personality and her rich backstory with Jace, Tezzeret, Bolas and even the Raven Man, let alone her own Origin story.
Gideon seriously needs to be explored more as a character and fortunately we have Return to Theros to anticipate for that. I can see the GW concept headed in the right direction with Emrakul and do anticipate Amonkhet being a defeat for them that has them re-evaluating themselves, their purpose and the value of the oaths they've taken. No one needs to die or lose freaking limbs - but the Eldrazi proved their actions have consequences. Those are not immediate consequences, and I think Bolas is just the villain to deliver immediate ones that send them all back to the drawing board and allows for some dimension. If done right, having them ponder things can do BFZ and the distant consequences of that some justice, actually.
And let's not forget Bolas orchestrated the release of the titans that the GW formed to "defeat." I think something deeper is brewing which is why I'm choosing to remain neutral until I see more of this story method unfold. I do see potential in it. Nissa's home was harmed enough by Nixlis to maim her emotionally, all GW carry some sort of burden and backstory, Nahiri is out there - there's potential.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
At this point of time, I'm empathizing more with Bolas than Ugin. We always assume Bolas is doing something "evil", but that may not be true. Sure, he's still solidly in the "evil" side (and probably never leaving) but unlike Ugin, he witnessed the Time Rifts and during that period he has demonstrated his willingness to "help" against something threatening him as well as long as the "helping" itself doesn't affect him negatively (I had to be this specific because I'm sure Bolas is the kind who will go "we'll go down together" if he's forced to the lose-lose corner).
At this point of time Ugin is the morally ambiguous scientist who imprisoned the Eldrazi "For Science!", while Bolas is a known villain who does things for either his benefit or his survival. The Eldrazi, being an unknown factor could very much mean their orchestrated release could still be for survival reasons rather than benefit. Of course, all this hinges on what we don't know about the Eldrazi and how much each Dragon Planeswalker knows about them.
So you're right, there's a lot of hidden potential there and it doesn't even have to be the cliche ones we can see coming. Mainly due to the Eldrazi being so ambiguous (as well as Ugin and Bolas recently), but because of it so many realms of possibilities are open.
Character development requires time, place, and the people themselves, what hinders the Gatewatch character development is that there is always an event bigger than all of them, therefore each of them becomes a gear of a machine rather than having a chance to show readers more of who they are; assuming there's more than shown thus far. Cheap romance and bickering aren't gonna save it, they need to BREAK the Gatewatch apart, allow them to learn and develop separately while holding the same purpose, so they could grow.
Weatherlight + 9 Titans were probably the closest thing to Gatewatch, and it was much more successful. For starter, instead of being pure of heart they all have some dark side: Gerrard holds conflicting heritage, Urza is selfish to the core, Corvex turncoated, Ertai vanity, etc. No one is biblically perfect, therefore watching Gatewatch doing things with 100% certainty pains me. I'd rather watch a character fights him/herself mentally, than watching Gideon debating with Liliana about the righteous course.
Chandra is going through a good upgrade in Kaladesh story, I hope to see more for other characters.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
To throw more echoes around, I like the idea of the gatewatch and I'm iffy on the members, loving Ajani, liking Chnadra and Liliana, neutral about Jace and dislike Gideon (I like Ajani and Elspeth more as white walkers) and Nissa (the major shift they made in her character and the fact she is the only mono-green walker).
BtZ was horrible to start them off as a group and left a bad taste in peoples mouths from the bad writing and what I believe was the biggest strike people seem to dislike is they killed two of the titans. Honestly I'd hope they just destroy the physical from and we'd have the threat of them someday reforming. And while I don't fully count Emrakul sealing herself a full victory for the gatewatch, it wasn't the best timing to have her sealed away right after her siblings? where killed.
I think people are also a little too picky on the plot armor issue. It could be handled better but in most stories the main character(s) will have plot armor until near the end of storylines, unless you are in game of thrones. I think one issues with this is the fact we get a rough outline of the story in the cards which does lower the tension. Being episodic in nature also means the main cast can't be development as fast.
However, I've seen so many people who both played magic for awhile and many who just started and they all have been getting into the lore and story more. Got a friend who's a huge Jace fan so he's been reading older stuff of his. I also like we seem to finally be moving along with a few storylines that have been left dangling.
From Maro's Odds and End: Eldritch Moon he says the idea of Emrakul being a cosmic horror element in a return to Innistrad set was a story element before BtZ was being designed. At one point BfZ* and SoI* where both planned but were a few blocks apart. I assume in this time, Emrakul would have escaped being burned and was gonna return in SoI in the story drafts. But then something cause SoI to be moved to right after BtZ and the two set block structure was decided on.
So bottom-line was Eldrazi where always gonna be an element in Innistrad 2.
The "spike" was already removed from the eldrazi. While the battle Chandra, Jace and Sarkhan had freed them from stasis, Nissa destroyed the "spike" that had trapped them to Zendikar.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Ugin imprisoned the Eldrazi because they were destroying worlds and killing millions. He didn't kill them because he feared even greater catastrophe.
Call me skeptical, but I don't think Ugin really cares about the Eldrazi destroying worlds. Yes, he said he didn't want Tarkir to be next, but I suspect even that was just a "supporting excuse" he used to make Sorin more enthusiastic about the whole imprisonment.
Yes, he ultimately trapped the Eldrazi because he feared greater catastrophe, but that was pretty much the whole and only reason - he probably wanted to see what happens to the multiversal ecosystem without the Eldrazi but didn't want it to be irreversible just in case he couldn't deal with the actual consequences (which has its own loose ends because it's based on the assumption that releasing the Eldrazi would fix the problem in time, but that's another issue). Everything else he said ("for the good of the multiverse" and "let's protect our homeplanes") honestly could have been lies he made up just to convince the other 2 oldwalkers because he needed them to assist him for his actual purpose.
He way less temperamental than Bolas for sure, but the way he expressed his "disappointment" with Jace/The Gatewatch after UlaKozi were killed was literally "You ruined my experiment, I've no choice but to fall back to my last defenses against whatever might have emerged from my experiment now" (of course he put it in a more condescending way, but the point is the same).
While I can understand why people are inclined to believe Ugin, I'm skeptical (and paranoid) enough to not take his words at face value, because other than his words, we know as much of his motives as we know the purpose of the Eldrazi. We (as the readers) have not yet been treated to his internal thought process and that is enough for me to not trust Ugin.
I think it's one thing to say that you don't trust Ugin. (You shouldn't, honestly. We don't know enough about him really.) But it's another thing entirely to imply that you might trust Bolas more. (Unless you just mean that you can always trust in Bolas to be Bolas; load your family into a bus, throw you under that bus, and then set that bus on fire, the second it looks to be in his own best interest.)
While I don't think Ugin was lying, it is a fair point: Bolas is more predictable in that we know he'll do what's best for Bolas, and everyone else can just deal with it - so he's on the Evil spectum of the Alignment Chart. Ugin, however, we don't really know whether he's on the Neutral or Good spectrums yet.
He seems firmly on the neutral side to me.
Yeah, that's what I meant. You're at least always on your guard against Bolas and given his track record, you probably know exactly where, when and how to guard against him as well. If Ugin turns to backstab you, you're either unprepared, or the effort spent to be on your guard against Ugin will ultimately be more exhausting than the effort spent on the known quantity which is Bolas.
Ugin's "big picture/long term views" is what makes him untrustworthy to me at least, because it means he could still jolly well be "evil" since "big picture/long term" villains usually have the ability to play a facade (be it good or neutral) for the longest time possible and Ugin definitely has the age to keep up that act. I mean, yes in reality if his facade is going to outplay your entire lifespan it shouldn't really matter to you, but seeing it as a storytelling trope for us bluntly, I don't see WotC keeping Ugin's motives as an enigma forever, so at some point we're probably get his true alliances established. Or maybe they will, but then I will still stand by what I pretty much said, except since Ugin outlives us (and perhaps even the game/franchise), it doesn't really matter to us at that point anymore.
Yeah, that makes sense and all, and I feel like I would've liked it more, if we didn't JUST have an entire eldrazi block, and a pretty lame one at that
Also, agree with the Nissa change. She could've had AMAZING character development, from being a straight up racist to someone that realizes every life is valuable. Instead, they're trying (or already have?) retconned it so she was also peaceful and loving. Like, really? Not only that, but as mentioned, she dabbled in black mana too as opposed to be strictly mono-green.
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Orzhov Nightsky Mimic
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