The Gatewatch is the reason why I've stopped following the story. There's no point in reading about a new plane when the story's focus is on group of planewalkers rather than showcasing elements of the plane itself.
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Since the gatewatch is here to stay, they could at least make it interesting.
You know what would have been interesting? If Pia Nalaar was working for the Consulate. Willingly! It would give the main characters a personal conflict; something they can't punch/burn/sarcasm their way out of. Make them grow as characters!
I think the gatewatch, although makes for a good story, needs to stop and give each block it's own individuality. Why does the gatewatch as a whole have to get involved with everything? Let's let everyone on the plane decide their own fate. We need room for new characters or reemergences of older characters we haven't seen in a while. I understand that we're on Chandra's home plane right now and we will be visiting everyone's home plane at some point in the future but let's focus on that one planeswalker and their struggles at home and not get the entire gatewatch involved. I'm actually glad that they didn't print the entire gatewatch for the set. But let's try to leave them out of the story and include more new characters and focus on their story as well. I like that tezzeret and ajani showed up although not as good as previous versions in card. I also like that we had a couple brand new planeswalkers. Let's try to include them in future sets that aren't focused on kaladesh unless they die or already died in the story. I agree with what tanimuko said. Why are we showcasing the same 5 core planeswalkers when they should be showcasing the characters and elements of the individual plane?
I agree with what tanimuko said. Why are we showcasing the same 5 core planeswalkers when they should be showcasing the characters and elements of the individual plane?
The problem with this is the question boils down to "Why are we doing what the majority wants when we chould be doing what the minority wants?"
It's understandable that those in the minority are unhappy with this mind set but too many people claim that this is either "terrible for magic" or "against what the 'actual majority' want". Both stances are ridiculous.
They are getting better with their blending of gatewatch story with world building so even if I don't currently like their execution I am rather optimistic.
It really seems like the majority of complaints in this thread are complaints just for the sake of complaining, or the all self-important "they're not doing what *I* want, so its terrible" mentality.
The "well, it means plot armor" is a ridiculous argument- Jace, Gideon, Nissa, Chandra, and Liliana had plot armor before the Gatewatch, and they'd have continued to have plot armor without the Gatewatch. Wizards isn't going to kill off its most popular, marketable characters, Gatewatch or no.
"It makes every block the same" Really? If you can't sense the difference in tone between Zendikar, Innistrad, and Kaladesh, you're pretty much trying not to. In fact, having consistent characters across the block actually helps emphasize the difference, because you're seeing how the same person acts and thinks in differing situations.
"Native characters!" Yahenni, Pia, Rashmi, Baan, and Baral have all been at the forefront of this story, moreso than Jace, and you could argue Liliana after the first couple of chapters, both who have been relegated to supporting roles this block (and Gideon was nonexistent until Aether Revolt). Oviya, Saheeli, Sram, Gonti, and Shadowblayde also have all had their moments. There's plenty of limelight to go around, and the stories, combined with the artbook and guide, have done a fantastic job of bringing the overall world to life.
I think the gatewatch, although makes for a good story, needs to stop and give each block it's own individuality.
[...]
Why are we showcasing the same 5 core planeswalkers when they should be showcasing the characters and elements of the individual plane?
I think the short answer to that may be the same as the short answer for why they've reduced blocks from three sets to two: original ideas, or in most cases new twists on established ideas, are difficult. Design space for a game, especially a 20+ year old game that intends to stay fresh, is difficult. They've had to recycle mechanics like landfall and madness. The same goes with the worldbuilding. Two of the three blocks in Standard are based in worlds we've visited before. Many of the antagonists of those blocks are characters we've seen before. Keeping the focus mainly on the fab five means they don't have to come up with as many "original" ideas for a world. It takes the pressure off.
The "well, it means plot armor" is a ridiculous argument- Jace, Gideon, Nissa, Chandra, and Liliana had plot armor before the Gatewatch, and they'd have continued to have plot armor without the Gatewatch. Wizards isn't going to kill off its most popular, marketable characters, Gatewatch or no.
Urza, Gerard and the rest of the Weatherlight crew, probably the most marketable characters in the mtg history with stories that span book and books and blocks and blocks would really like to have a word with you about that''Wizards isn't going to kill off its most popular, marketable characters, Gatewatch or no.'' statement. I think that this is honestly one of the least informed statements that I have had a privilege of reading during my time here.
I'm pretty sure they didn't kill them despite really ridiculous scenarios until they were done marketing them. They ended their stories in a very big way that required their death. So there are many ways to look at this, you can say they had 'plot armor' for as long as wizards wanted them, or you can say it was always part of a long spanning story that was thought out long in advanced(which we know is wrong because the story was handed off to different groups at different times, do you think they would have allowed any of these other writers to kill them off?). The Gatewatch hasn't suffered any loses yet because they aren't ready to have them suffer losses, it has been 3 stories with the first two being setup and this newest one not even being done. The Weatherlight had a much larger crew to start with so they could afford to harm them in various ways without effecting their main cast. Imagine the Gatewatch started with 4 extra filler characters that were introduced in BFZ and two of them were dead now. Is your fear of 'plot armor' gone? Or do you still make the same claim because the 'core' characters are always going to be safe until either they drop in popularity or Wizards decides to go a different direction.
Since the gatewatch is here to stay, they could at least make it interesting.
You know what would have been interesting? If Pia Nalaar was working for the Consulate. Willingly! It would give the main characters a personal conflict; something they can't punch/burn/sarcasm their way out of. Make them grow as characters!
When Kaladesh's plot was still unknown I hoped for the gatewatch to be siding with the consulate against the revolt. That would have put Chandra against Pia. But, no, they went the easy route: good revolutionaries Vs. evil dictatorship.
IF they had the balls to do it they would at least leave Kaladesh in a state of open anarchy after the revolt, showing the inhabitants tat even if the consulate was strict it was still the best choice, because the rebes are just selfish idiots. Making the gatewatch realize that aiding the "good guys" is not always the best thing to do in the long run.
Or making the gatewatch accept Baan's offer and work for the consulate while Chandra is siding with Pia and the renegades. That's some good conflict
With all this talk about "plot armor", I feel like I should mention a few things.
Firstly, that WotC hasn't definitively killed off a single planeswalker character since Venser. Elspeth and Xenagos are questionably dead. Ugin was dead, but is now alive. Sorin is stuck in a wall, but alive. And unless you guys count Vronos, that's about it. So not killing off characters is fine, there just have to be consequences. I'd argue that WotC has been doing just that for years now, and it's been absolutely fine.
I'm pretty sure the main reason people are complaining now is not that Gatewatch members aren't being killed off (and honestly, the core 5 JUST got together, it would be unreasonable for them to be killed off now anyway), but rather because their first first outing was to defeat the Eldrazi. A complaint I very much share. The oldest planar threats in existence, that literally consume planes, beaten by newly and haphazardly formed Gatewatch? I know it's important to give the heroes a big win to drum up support and establish credibility, but beating the Eldrazi was a poor way to show it, IMO.
I definitely do think that the Gatewatch will see a loss of some kind come Amonkhet, and if the excerpts from the art book are any indication, it sounds like a possibility.
From what I understand, Ajani warns the rest of the Gatewatch that taking on Bolas without more help and planning would be a bad idea, and they go to Amonkhet anyway. That definitely sounds like the Gatewatch are in for a loss.
So we'll see what happens. Again I'm not opposed to them existing, I'm opposed to how they started, and the focus on mono colored walkers. Now that both have passed though, I'm hoping their overarching storylines as a team get better.
The "well, it means plot armor" is a ridiculous argument- Jace, Gideon, Nissa, Chandra, and Liliana had plot armor before the Gatewatch, and they'd have continued to have plot armor without the Gatewatch. Wizards isn't going to kill off its most popular, marketable characters, Gatewatch or no.
Urza, Gerard and the rest of the Weatherlight crew, probably the most marketable characters in the mtg history with stories that span book and books and blocks and blocks would really like to have a word with you about that''Wizards isn't going to kill off its most popular, marketable characters, Gatewatch or no.'' statement. I think that this is honestly one of the least informed statements that I have had a privilege of reading during my time here.
Really? Can you point me to the Gerrard action figures and Sisay Funkopops? Where can I download the Video game that had Squee in it, or get the playmat with Urza on it?
You're comparing the marketing of characters from nearly 20 years ago with today's magic marketing without making any realization that Wizards' strategies are about as similar then and now as the planes of Mirrodin and Lorwyn.
Further, as user_938036 pointed out, the whole crew of the Weatherlight had quite a bit of plot armor right up until the end of the saga. Their entire story was about fighting Phyrexia- that was their sole goal and motivation through those books and blocks. When Yawgmoth died, they didn't need any of them anymore, save for Karn. Gerrard and Urza died, and the rest just disappeared. The Gatewatch doesn't have the same singular focus- they're a lot more open ended, and thus can be sustained for a lot longer.
And maybe Wizards might have learned something from it- given that the Otarian stories, while decent in their own right, weren't nearly as popular.
I would strongly recommend you think a bit more critically before taking a swipe like a condescending jackhole next time.
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Further, as user_938036 pointed out, the whole crew of the Weatherlight had quite a bit of plot armor right up until the end of the saga.
Eh, I wouldn't exactly say that. In their first outing, trying to rescue Sisay from Volrath, they took quite a few casualties. Rofellos and Mirri died. Ertai and Crovax were MIA. Starke was struck blind and Tahngarth was mutated. And, technically, Hanna contracted the Phyrexian plague. Also, remember that they got their asses kicked in the first encounter with Greven and the Predator.
Yeah, sure, at the end of the day it was still trite, fantasy pulp. But the story enforced stakes, you felt as though the characters were in some sort of peril. The same can't be said of the Gatewatch. They've been around for three blocks, as many as the Weatherlight crew were in, and have defeated entities billed as threats to oldwalkers while suffering no losses. That's fine for a Saturday morning cartoon, but a lot of folks, WotC creative among them, bristle at this sort of comparison.
Further, as user_938036 pointed out, the whole crew of the Weatherlight had quite a bit of plot armor right up until the end of the saga.
Eh, I wouldn't exactly say that. In their first outing, trying to rescue Sisay from Volrath, they took quite a few casualties. Rofellos and Mirri died. Ertai and Crovax were MIA. Starke was struck blind and Tahngarth was mutated. And, technically, Hanna contracted the Phyrexian plague. Also, remember that they got their asses kicked in the first encounter with Greven and the Predator.
Yeah, sure, at the end of the day it was still trite, fantasy pulp. But the story enforced stakes, you felt as though the characters were in some sort of peril. The same can't be said of the Gatewatch. They've been around for three blocks, as many as the Weatherlight crew were in, and have defeated entities billed as threats to oldwalkers while suffering no losses. That's fine for a Saturday morning cartoon, but a lot of folks, WotC creative among them, bristle at this sort of comparison.
Yeah, while I don't dislike the Gatewatch as a concept, I agree with the people claiming that they were poorly introduced; giving them a clean win over the Eldrazi, when they had been built up as a threat that three Oldwalkers couldn't kill? It de-fanged both the Oldwalkers and the Eldrazi as a threat.
I'd have much preferred if they had been forced to release the Eldrazi from Zendikar completely, once their attempt to re-seal the Eldrazi were screwed over irrevocably by Ob Nixilis; pull out the nail keeping them on the Plane, to use Ugin's "Titan's are the TRUE Eldrazi's hands"-metaphor.
Speaking of saturday morning cartoons, I think Wizard's should at least take a note from the DCAU Justice League series - don't have the entire Gatewatch present for every story. Split them up, have them work separate cases, and bring them all together for the big season finale (Bolas, Eldrazi, InJacetus League, etc). Give the characters breathing room.
Further, as user_938036 pointed out, the whole crew of the Weatherlight had quite a bit of plot armor right up until the end of the saga.
Eh, I wouldn't exactly say that. In their first outing, trying to rescue Sisay from Volrath, they took quite a few casualties. Rofellos and Mirri died. Ertai and Crovax were MIA. Starke was struck blind and Tahngarth was mutated. And, technically, Hanna contracted the Phyrexian plague. Also, remember that they got their asses kicked in the first encounter with Greven and the Predator.
Yeah, sure, at the end of the day it was still trite, fantasy pulp. But the story enforced stakes, you felt as though the characters were in some sort of peril. The same can't be said of the Gatewatch. They've been around for three blocks, as many as the Weatherlight crew were in, and have defeated entities billed as threats to oldwalkers while suffering no losses. That's fine for a Saturday morning cartoon, but a lot of folks, WotC creative among them, bristle at this sort of comparison.
Yeah, while I don't dislike the Gatewatch as a concept, I agree with the people claiming that they were poorly introduced; giving them a clean win over the Eldrazi, when they had been built up as a threat that three Oldwalkers couldn't kill? It de-fanged both the Oldwalkers and the Eldrazi as a threat.
I'd have much preferred if they had been forced to release the Eldrazi from Zendikar completely, once their attempt to re-seal the Eldrazi were screwed over irrevocably by Ob Nixilis; pull out the nail keeping them on the Plane, to use Ugin's "Titan's are the TRUE Eldrazi's hands"-metaphor.
Speaking of saturday morning cartoons, I think Wizard's should at least take a note from the DCAU Justice League series - don't have the entire Gatewatch present for every story. Split them up, have them work separate cases, and bring them all together for the big season finale (Bolas, Eldrazi, InJacetus League, etc). Give the characters breathing room.
You're over looking a rather important difference that might be gone soon but is currently an important distinction. Each of those groups is/was significantly larger than the gatewatch currently. As the gatewatch grows expect to see less than the full team on each mission(we already know Ajani isn't going to be on Amonkhet because he thinks its dumb to rush head first into such a threat), though I doubt any block will feature a member going solo.
Further, as user_938036 pointed out, the whole crew of the Weatherlight had quite a bit of plot armor right up until the end of the saga.
Eh, I wouldn't exactly say that. In their first outing, trying to rescue Sisay from Volrath, they took quite a few casualties. Rofellos and Mirri died. Ertai and Crovax were MIA. Starke was struck blind and Tahngarth was mutated. And, technically, Hanna contracted the Phyrexian plague. Also, remember that they got their asses kicked in the first encounter with Greven and the Predator.
Yeah, sure, at the end of the day it was still trite, fantasy pulp. But the story enforced stakes, you felt as though the characters were in some sort of peril. The same can't be said of the Gatewatch. They've been around for three blocks, as many as the Weatherlight crew were in, and have defeated entities billed as threats to oldwalkers while suffering no losses. That's fine for a Saturday morning cartoon, but a lot of folks, WotC creative among them, bristle at this sort of comparison.
Yeah, while I don't dislike the Gatewatch as a concept, I agree with the people claiming that they were poorly introduced; giving them a clean win over the Eldrazi, when they had been built up as a threat that three Oldwalkers couldn't kill? It de-fanged both the Oldwalkers and the Eldrazi as a threat.
I'd have much preferred if they had been forced to release the Eldrazi from Zendikar completely, once their attempt to re-seal the Eldrazi were screwed over irrevocably by Ob Nixilis; pull out the nail keeping them on the Plane, to use Ugin's "Titan's are the TRUE Eldrazi's hands"-metaphor.
Speaking of saturday morning cartoons, I think Wizard's should at least take a note from the DCAU Justice League series - don't have the entire Gatewatch present for every story. Split them up, have them work separate cases, and bring them all together for the big season finale (Bolas, Eldrazi, InJacetus League, etc). Give the characters breathing room.
You're over looking a rather important difference that might be gone soon but is currently an important distinction. Each of those groups is/was significantly larger than the gatewatch currently. As the gatewatch grows expect to see less than the full team on each mission(we already know Ajani isn't going to be on Amonkhet because he thinks its dumb to rush head first into such a threat), though I doubt any block will feature a member going solo.
Fair point, though I still think that Liliana, Chandra and Nissa would be enough of a Gatewatch presence in this story, especially with Ajani and Saheeli joining forces with them against Tezzeret and Dovin (and Ajani formally joining the Gatewatch afterwards) - pulling Jace and Gideon into the current story as well makes it feel... crowded.
Further, as user_938036 pointed out, the whole crew of the Weatherlight had quite a bit of plot armor right up until the end of the saga.
Eh, I wouldn't exactly say that. In their first outing, trying to rescue Sisay from Volrath, they took quite a few casualties. Rofellos and Mirri died. Ertai and Crovax were MIA. Starke was struck blind and Tahngarth was mutated. And, technically, Hanna contracted the Phyrexian plague. Also, remember that they got their asses kicked in the first encounter with Greven and the Predator.
Yeah, sure, at the end of the day it was still trite, fantasy pulp. But the story enforced stakes, you felt as though the characters were in some sort of peril. The same can't be said of the Gatewatch. They've been around for three blocks, as many as the Weatherlight crew were in, and have defeated entities billed as threats to oldwalkers while suffering no losses. That's fine for a Saturday morning cartoon, but a lot of folks, WotC creative among them, bristle at this sort of comparison.
Yeah, while I don't dislike the Gatewatch as a concept, I agree with the people claiming that they were poorly introduced; giving them a clean win over the Eldrazi, when they had been built up as a threat that three Oldwalkers couldn't kill? It de-fanged both the Oldwalkers and the Eldrazi as a threat.
I'd have much preferred if they had been forced to release the Eldrazi from Zendikar completely, once their attempt to re-seal the Eldrazi were screwed over irrevocably by Ob Nixilis; pull out the nail keeping them on the Plane, to use Ugin's "Titan's are the TRUE Eldrazi's hands"-metaphor.
Speaking of saturday morning cartoons, I think Wizard's should at least take a note from the DCAU Justice League series - don't have the entire Gatewatch present for every story. Split them up, have them work separate cases, and bring them all together for the big season finale (Bolas, Eldrazi, InJacetus League, etc). Give the characters breathing room.
You're over looking a rather important difference that might be gone soon but is currently an important distinction. Each of those groups is/was significantly larger than the gatewatch currently. As the gatewatch grows expect to see less than the full team on each mission(we already know Ajani isn't going to be on Amonkhet because he thinks its dumb to rush head first into such a threat), though I doubt any block will feature a member going solo.
Fair point, though I still think that Liliana, Chandra and Nissa would be enough of a Gatewatch presence in this story, especially with Ajani and Saheeli joining forces with them against Tezzeret and Dovin (and Ajani formally joining the Gatewatch afterwards) - pulling Jace and Gideon into the current story as well makes it feel... crowded.
Gideon had that good story last week. I think it makes somewhat sense for him to be called in for back-up when things went into revolt.
So because there weren't toys and playmats and video games back then the Weatherlight crew weren't popular marketable characters?
What about tons of novels? What about stories that had shaped the landscape of mtg? The character and story interaction with the physical cards? If that had failed so badly, especially the last part, then WotC wouldn't be mimicking the very same marketing strategy with the Gatewatch! You're talking about stories and characters that drove people into the game and that made players care about the world of MtG and essentially created the Vorthos community. Those characters weren't the most marketable characters? Sure, if we're comparing the market from 20 years ago and today they weren't but they were their most marketed characters back then. They were quite marketable for their era. In the market today, yes, Gatewatch takes the win, hands down, now questions asked (since the old stories aren't even on sale anymore for all I know). Popularity...well...that is a completely different story.
I recall that the story-influenced cards were particularly unpopular with design/development, since most times they only had a tenuous relationship to the actual story with regards to their mechanics.
Tons of novels? Not really. There was only one line of novels. Sometimes you'd get books focusing on different parts of the lore (Ice Age, Legends, the Anthologies), but for the most part, the books followed the game's printings, and that's all we got. Now compare it to D&D's novels. There's a bunch of settings and each setting has a bunch of book series. Not with Magic. If you didn't like Gerrard and crew, then you didn't have many alternatives.
And believe me, lots of people didn't like Gerrard. He was pretty much an off-the-shelf Action Hero, completewithone-liners. He was clever and charismatic with a Tragic Backstory to give him depth, but honestly, no one cared. He wasn't sympathetic or interesting. Even [card=Gerrard Capashen
]his card[/card] was lackluster. The only people buying and reading the stories were the ones already invested (and people who bought fat packs). Granted, most of the other characters were decent, but we hardly got to know them, apart from a few exceptions (Karn, for example). The story was focused on Gerrard, and Gerrard wasn't marketable, at least, not to the people buying the game. That's why they pretty much untethered the novels from the cards.
Also...
If that had failed so badly, especially the last part, then WotC wouldn't be mimicking the very same marketing strategy with the Gatewatch!
That's presuming a lot of faith in WotC's ability to learn from past mistakes. Especially mistakes made a long time ago.
Well, remember that D&D and Magic are fundamentally different games. Magic needs to follow the blocks for story, while D&D is a game about a narrative and their novels have a ton more creative freedom.
Except one of the fundamental parts of the MtG lore is that the game takes place in a multiverse. Important events should be happening in lots of places. We get two, maybe three, glimpses a year at stories that have nothing to do with the fab five. It's frustrating to know that thousands upon thousands of worlds exist and we're stuck watching Jace and pals stumble into one victory after another.
Except one of the fundamental parts of the MtG lore is that the game takes place in a multiverse. Important events should be happening in lots of places. We get two, maybe three, glimpses a year at stories that have nothing to do with the fab five. It's frustrating to know that thousands upon thousands of worlds exist and we're stuck watching Jace and pals stumble into one victory after another.
Thank you. It is definitely frustrating. if you think about it, how did magic survive before the fab five? Oh that's right, creative writing with a good story and good characters. And the characters weren't just good they were well thought out and had a good story behind them. Origins gave us a glimpse into the back story of these guys but it wasn't very well written or thought out. I like where they were trying to go with it but it wasn't the greatest idea ever. They used to come out with novels that you could buy that told the whole story so when you went and played the game you had a clue as to what went together and why. You understood the flavor text on the cards. They at some point stopped doing that but I do believe that even if they're going to stick with these same 5 walkers in every set and every story that they need to at least write a better story about what's actually going on.
Except one of the fundamental parts of the MtG lore is that the game takes place in a multiverse. Important events should be happening in lots of places. We get two, maybe three, glimpses a year at stories that have nothing to do with the fab five. It's frustrating to know that thousands upon thousands of worlds exist and we're stuck watching Jace and pals stumble into one victory after another.
To be fair, before the Gatewatch we still barely explored the multiverse. There were only a dozen or so planes that had been explored in any detail, with usually 1 or maybe 2 each year. Now we are consistently getting 2 a year plus the small side adventures from Commander and such. And holding a story over multiple disconnected places is hard unless you follow the overlap, which just happens to be Planeswalkers. We used to just follow Urza and the Weatherlight crew. We did it post-mending with 2 main casts: Elspeth and friends, and what eventually became the Gatewatch. The only thing that has changed is who we are focusing on as the main characters. And the Gatewatch lets us see them interact on a regular basis, not just in pairs scattered over the years. There were few situations where more than 2 Planeswalkers were in the same place, only the awakening of the Eldrazi and the Infinite Consortium that one time.
We now have characters who we can see develop. We can follow them and not have to wait 3 years for them to appear again like Elspeth or Sarkhan. They interplay off of each other and grow. Chandra just had a good story last week with Gideon also getting some good moments. We are still getting excellent stories of Plane-bound characters like Tazri and Yahenni, but we get a narrative that transcends blocks.
Except one of the fundamental parts of the MtG lore is that the game takes place in a multiverse. Important events should be happening in lots of places. We get two, maybe three, glimpses a year at stories that have nothing to do with the fab five. It's frustrating to know that thousands upon thousands of worlds exist and we're stuck watching Jace and pals stumble into one victory after another.
To be fair, before the Gatewatch we still barely explored the multiverse. There were only a dozen or so planes that had been explored in any detail, with usually 1 or maybe 2 each year. Now we are consistently getting 2 a year plus the small side adventures from Commander and such. And holding a story over multiple disconnected places is hard unless you follow the overlap, which just happens to be Planeswalkers. We used to just follow Urza and the Weatherlight crew. We did it post-mending with 2 main casts: Elspeth and friends, and what eventually became the Gatewatch. The only thing that has changed is who we are focusing on as the main characters. And the Gatewatch lets us see them interact on a regular basis, not just in pairs scattered over the years. There were few situations where more than 2 Planeswalkers were in the same place, only the awakening of the Eldrazi and the Infinite Consortium that one time.
We now have characters who we can see develop. We can follow them and not have to wait 3 years for them to appear again like Elspeth or Sarkhan. They interplay off of each other and grow. Chandra just had a good story last week with Gideon also getting some good moments. We are still getting excellent stories of Plane-bound characters like Tazri and Yahenni, but we get a narrative that transcends blocks.
Yeah, we can't expect to get glimpses of every plane and planeswalker. It's ridiculously coincidental that, in an infinite multiverse, the same few of planeswalkers keep running into each other on the same few planes, but this is a necessary evil because the story completely abandoning all previous characters and settings in every block would not be very interesting.
However, the Gatewatch are still terrible because we get way more focus on them than anyone (save creative team members, evidently) ever wanted. This robs other planeswalkers and legendary creatures of what they deserve. Lets look at just the planeswalkers:
Ob Nixilis - He got enough presence in the story, but no narration. Why does that matter? The thing that everyone loved about Ob in his C14 story was his dialogue and narration. In BFZ, we got no narration and only cartoonish, cringe-inducing dialogue. (To be fair, most of BFZ block's stories were like that.) They kind of ruined his character by changing him from an intelligent and ruthless planar conqueror to a petty and spiteful minor villain. He stayed on Zendikar after already condemning it to death just to torture Nissa, putting himself in tremendous danger for no real payoff besides entertainment. Ugh.
Kiora - This isn't so much an issue with a Gatewatch as with the writers, but Kiora was written TERRIBLY in some of the stories. I really wanted to like her but her excessively arrogant and moronic dialogue got in the way. She's still popular, apparently, so hopefully when she returns they can redeem her character, rather than continuing that horrible portrayal. But even if her writing was better, Kiora was still defined by her interactions with the Gatewatch (but then again, who isn't?). Without the Gatewatch, Kiora might have even been BFZ's main character. Again, this would require her dialogue not being physically painful to read. But anyone is a more interesting protagonist than Gideon, right?
Sorin and Nahiri - Their conflict was actually well-handled and interesting to read about. What is there to complain about, you ask? Well, this entire plotline was secondary to the Gatewatch's story. This should have been the focus of the block: Sorin as the main protagonist (still an anti-hero, of course), and Nahiri as the villain. But the Gatewatch prevented that.
Arlinn Kord - Two stories. TWO STORIES. The most anticipated and popular new walker we've had in a long time show up in two stories. Nothing related to the main plot. Just two filler stories featuring her, one of which she only made a small appearance in. Characters like Chandra and Nissa, who didn't even get cards in the block, had better representation in the block's story. I'm not even a fan of werewolves or Arlinn, but how the story was handled regarding her was just ridiculous.
Tamiyo - Still showed up in the story a decent amount, but had her rightful color identity stolen by Jace.
Saheeli - Unlike Arlinn, she actually got to interact with the Gatewatch, but did little more than that. So far she's been less important than half the legendary creatures in the block. Can anyone even list some of her character traits besides stuff from her bio? Probably not, because she's done nothing except for minor things for plot convenience.
Tezzeret - As with Ob Nixilis, actually getting to narrate a story or two and not being characterized as a cartoonish, lazily-written, mustache-twirly villain would have been a nice touch.
Dovin is the only planeswalker who was actually decent and hasn't been grossly misrepresented or underused thanks to the Gatewatch. For legendary creatures, it's even worse. Besides the Eldrazi titans, Avacyn, and perhaps Yahenni and Rashmi, have any been anywhere close to as present in their own blocks as the Gatewatch? Most just show up in a story or two to check a box, then disappear and never do anything important again. Of course, this happened to some legends before the Gatewatch. But before the Gatewatch, entire cycles of legendary creatures had major importance on each plane, not just one or two (Khans, Dragonlords, Gods, Guildmasters/Champions, Praetors, etc.). That doesn't happen anymore.
There's also the fact Gatewatch-focused stories tend to be among the worst (the only exceptions Emrakul in Jace's head, and the ones written by the guy who wrote the one on Ravnica and the Chandra vs. Baral one). And, of course, stories completely free of the Gatewatch tend to be among the best. Drana fighting Ulamog, Tazri's mind being warped by Kozilek, Avacyn going mad, the Gitrog Monster, Sorin vs. Nahiri: these are some of the best stories post-Origins (not just in my opinion, but from what I've heard from others, too.) The Gatewatch are completely absent.
What I find distressing is that Kaladesh has fewer stories without the Gatewatch than past blocks have. If future blocks continue featuring the Gatewatch more and more, or even just stay where Kaladesh is, then it's going to get very stale very quickly. That is, if it hasn't already. I'm already very bored of the Gatewatch, as are many other people, and those who defend the Gatewatch now probably will be sick of them pretty soon.
I feel they still are fine tuning how to tell stories with the Gatewatch as our overarching focus. Battle and Shadows poorly handled new characters, both walker and lendgedary. I think with Kaladesh, we've gotten better stories with Yahenni, Rashmi, Kari. I hope they can find a balance between the long term plot and short term planar stories.
I think the Aether Revolt stories are doing a great job so far, in terms of striking a balance between the Gatewatch and non-Gatewatch characters. I don't know why so many people are unhappy that we finally follow a stable cast of characters. Are the Gatewatch the most interesting characters? No, not particularly, but I'm not going to blast wizards for having main characters with a continuous story. Regardless, now that the Origins 5 were assembled, and we got our first new addition with Ajani - a multicolored planeswalker, and far more interesting than the Origins 5 IMO, I imagine things will get more interesting from here on.
As far as "not focusing enough on non-Gatewatch characters" is concerned, there still needs to be more improvement. Only one block later, we're leaps and bounds better off than SOI block's use of Arlin Kord. Sure her stories were good, but she had absolutely zero impact on the gatewatch, the plane, and the plot. Sorin and Nahiri had a full arc, but even then it was soured for me by just how isolated their plot was. Which brings us to KLD block. The entire plot wouldn't be possible without Kaladesh natives, and the story itself is very fitting for the plane. Sure not every character is given equal attention, but characters are popping in and out of the story, and more importantly, having an impact on the plot. For people claiming that we don't get enough focus on the plane itself, I would argue that the story told here is very unique to Kaladesh, and couldn't be told anywhere else.
I will wait till Amonkhet block is done to make any final conclusions, but I'm actually quite excited, and the complaints I do have are largely either being addressed, or will presumably be addressed soon enough.
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You know what would have been interesting? If Pia Nalaar was working for the Consulate. Willingly! It would give the main characters a personal conflict; something they can't punch/burn/sarcasm their way out of. Make them grow as characters!
It's understandable that those in the minority are unhappy with this mind set but too many people claim that this is either "terrible for magic" or "against what the 'actual majority' want". Both stances are ridiculous.
They are getting better with their blending of gatewatch story with world building so even if I don't currently like their execution I am rather optimistic.
The "well, it means plot armor" is a ridiculous argument- Jace, Gideon, Nissa, Chandra, and Liliana had plot armor before the Gatewatch, and they'd have continued to have plot armor without the Gatewatch. Wizards isn't going to kill off its most popular, marketable characters, Gatewatch or no.
"It makes every block the same" Really? If you can't sense the difference in tone between Zendikar, Innistrad, and Kaladesh, you're pretty much trying not to. In fact, having consistent characters across the block actually helps emphasize the difference, because you're seeing how the same person acts and thinks in differing situations.
"Native characters!" Yahenni, Pia, Rashmi, Baan, and Baral have all been at the forefront of this story, moreso than Jace, and you could argue Liliana after the first couple of chapters, both who have been relegated to supporting roles this block (and Gideon was nonexistent until Aether Revolt). Oviya, Saheeli, Sram, Gonti, and Shadowblayde also have all had their moments. There's plenty of limelight to go around, and the stories, combined with the artbook and guide, have done a fantastic job of bringing the overall world to life.
I think the short answer to that may be the same as the short answer for why they've reduced blocks from three sets to two: original ideas, or in most cases new twists on established ideas, are difficult. Design space for a game, especially a 20+ year old game that intends to stay fresh, is difficult. They've had to recycle mechanics like landfall and madness. The same goes with the worldbuilding. Two of the three blocks in Standard are based in worlds we've visited before. Many of the antagonists of those blocks are characters we've seen before. Keeping the focus mainly on the fab five means they don't have to come up with as many "original" ideas for a world. It takes the pressure off.
Or making the gatewatch accept Baan's offer and work for the consulate while Chandra is siding with Pia and the renegades. That's some good conflict
Firstly, that WotC hasn't definitively killed off a single planeswalker character since Venser. Elspeth and Xenagos are questionably dead. Ugin was dead, but is now alive. Sorin is stuck in a wall, but alive. And unless you guys count Vronos, that's about it. So not killing off characters is fine, there just have to be consequences. I'd argue that WotC has been doing just that for years now, and it's been absolutely fine.
I'm pretty sure the main reason people are complaining now is not that Gatewatch members aren't being killed off (and honestly, the core 5 JUST got together, it would be unreasonable for them to be killed off now anyway), but rather because their first first outing was to defeat the Eldrazi. A complaint I very much share. The oldest planar threats in existence, that literally consume planes, beaten by newly and haphazardly formed Gatewatch? I know it's important to give the heroes a big win to drum up support and establish credibility, but beating the Eldrazi was a poor way to show it, IMO.
I definitely do think that the Gatewatch will see a loss of some kind come Amonkhet, and if the excerpts from the art book are any indication, it sounds like a possibility.
So we'll see what happens. Again I'm not opposed to them existing, I'm opposed to how they started, and the focus on mono colored walkers. Now that both have passed though, I'm hoping their overarching storylines as a team get better.
Really? Can you point me to the Gerrard action figures and Sisay Funkopops? Where can I download the Video game that had Squee in it, or get the playmat with Urza on it?
You're comparing the marketing of characters from nearly 20 years ago with today's magic marketing without making any realization that Wizards' strategies are about as similar then and now as the planes of Mirrodin and Lorwyn.
Further, as user_938036 pointed out, the whole crew of the Weatherlight had quite a bit of plot armor right up until the end of the saga. Their entire story was about fighting Phyrexia- that was their sole goal and motivation through those books and blocks. When Yawgmoth died, they didn't need any of them anymore, save for Karn. Gerrard and Urza died, and the rest just disappeared. The Gatewatch doesn't have the same singular focus- they're a lot more open ended, and thus can be sustained for a lot longer.
And maybe Wizards might have learned something from it- given that the Otarian stories, while decent in their own right, weren't nearly as popular.
I would strongly recommend you think a bit more critically before taking a swipe like a condescending jackhole next time.
Eh, I wouldn't exactly say that. In their first outing, trying to rescue Sisay from Volrath, they took quite a few casualties. Rofellos and Mirri died. Ertai and Crovax were MIA. Starke was struck blind and Tahngarth was mutated. And, technically, Hanna contracted the Phyrexian plague. Also, remember that they got their asses kicked in the first encounter with Greven and the Predator.
Yeah, sure, at the end of the day it was still trite, fantasy pulp. But the story enforced stakes, you felt as though the characters were in some sort of peril. The same can't be said of the Gatewatch. They've been around for three blocks, as many as the Weatherlight crew were in, and have defeated entities billed as threats to oldwalkers while suffering no losses. That's fine for a Saturday morning cartoon, but a lot of folks, WotC creative among them, bristle at this sort of comparison.
Yeah, while I don't dislike the Gatewatch as a concept, I agree with the people claiming that they were poorly introduced; giving them a clean win over the Eldrazi, when they had been built up as a threat that three Oldwalkers couldn't kill? It de-fanged both the Oldwalkers and the Eldrazi as a threat.
I'd have much preferred if they had been forced to release the Eldrazi from Zendikar completely, once their attempt to re-seal the Eldrazi were screwed over irrevocably by Ob Nixilis; pull out the nail keeping them on the Plane, to use Ugin's "Titan's are the TRUE Eldrazi's hands"-metaphor.
Speaking of saturday morning cartoons, I think Wizard's should at least take a note from the DCAU Justice League series - don't have the entire Gatewatch present for every story. Split them up, have them work separate cases, and bring them all together for the big season finale (Bolas, Eldrazi, InJacetus League, etc). Give the characters breathing room.
Fair point, though I still think that Liliana, Chandra and Nissa would be enough of a Gatewatch presence in this story, especially with Ajani and Saheeli joining forces with them against Tezzeret and Dovin (and Ajani formally joining the Gatewatch afterwards) - pulling Jace and Gideon into the current story as well makes it feel... crowded.
Gideon had that good story last week. I think it makes somewhat sense for him to be called in for back-up when things went into revolt.
I recall that the story-influenced cards were particularly unpopular with design/development, since most times they only had a tenuous relationship to the actual story with regards to their mechanics.
Tons of novels? Not really. There was only one line of novels. Sometimes you'd get books focusing on different parts of the lore (Ice Age, Legends, the Anthologies), but for the most part, the books followed the game's printings, and that's all we got. Now compare it to D&D's novels. There's a bunch of settings and each setting has a bunch of book series. Not with Magic. If you didn't like Gerrard and crew, then you didn't have many alternatives.
And believe me, lots of people didn't like Gerrard. He was pretty much an off-the-shelf Action Hero, complete with one-liners. He was clever and charismatic with a Tragic Backstory to give him depth, but honestly, no one cared. He wasn't sympathetic or interesting. Even [card=Gerrard Capashen
]his card[/card] was lackluster. The only people buying and reading the stories were the ones already invested (and people who bought fat packs). Granted, most of the other characters were decent, but we hardly got to know them, apart from a few exceptions (Karn, for example). The story was focused on Gerrard, and Gerrard wasn't marketable, at least, not to the people buying the game. That's why they pretty much untethered the novels from the cards.
Also...
That's presuming a lot of faith in WotC's ability to learn from past mistakes. Especially mistakes made a long time ago.
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Thank you. It is definitely frustrating. if you think about it, how did magic survive before the fab five? Oh that's right, creative writing with a good story and good characters. And the characters weren't just good they were well thought out and had a good story behind them. Origins gave us a glimpse into the back story of these guys but it wasn't very well written or thought out. I like where they were trying to go with it but it wasn't the greatest idea ever. They used to come out with novels that you could buy that told the whole story so when you went and played the game you had a clue as to what went together and why. You understood the flavor text on the cards. They at some point stopped doing that but I do believe that even if they're going to stick with these same 5 walkers in every set and every story that they need to at least write a better story about what's actually going on.
To be fair, before the Gatewatch we still barely explored the multiverse. There were only a dozen or so planes that had been explored in any detail, with usually 1 or maybe 2 each year. Now we are consistently getting 2 a year plus the small side adventures from Commander and such. And holding a story over multiple disconnected places is hard unless you follow the overlap, which just happens to be Planeswalkers. We used to just follow Urza and the Weatherlight crew. We did it post-mending with 2 main casts: Elspeth and friends, and what eventually became the Gatewatch. The only thing that has changed is who we are focusing on as the main characters. And the Gatewatch lets us see them interact on a regular basis, not just in pairs scattered over the years. There were few situations where more than 2 Planeswalkers were in the same place, only the awakening of the Eldrazi and the Infinite Consortium that one time.
We now have characters who we can see develop. We can follow them and not have to wait 3 years for them to appear again like Elspeth or Sarkhan. They interplay off of each other and grow. Chandra just had a good story last week with Gideon also getting some good moments. We are still getting excellent stories of Plane-bound characters like Tazri and Yahenni, but we get a narrative that transcends blocks.
Yeah, we can't expect to get glimpses of every plane and planeswalker. It's ridiculously coincidental that, in an infinite multiverse, the same few of planeswalkers keep running into each other on the same few planes, but this is a necessary evil because the story completely abandoning all previous characters and settings in every block would not be very interesting.
However, the Gatewatch are still terrible because we get way more focus on them than anyone (save creative team members, evidently) ever wanted. This robs other planeswalkers and legendary creatures of what they deserve. Lets look at just the planeswalkers:
Ob Nixilis - He got enough presence in the story, but no narration. Why does that matter? The thing that everyone loved about Ob in his C14 story was his dialogue and narration. In BFZ, we got no narration and only cartoonish, cringe-inducing dialogue. (To be fair, most of BFZ block's stories were like that.) They kind of ruined his character by changing him from an intelligent and ruthless planar conqueror to a petty and spiteful minor villain. He stayed on Zendikar after already condemning it to death just to torture Nissa, putting himself in tremendous danger for no real payoff besides entertainment. Ugh.
Kiora - This isn't so much an issue with a Gatewatch as with the writers, but Kiora was written TERRIBLY in some of the stories. I really wanted to like her but her excessively arrogant and moronic dialogue got in the way. She's still popular, apparently, so hopefully when she returns they can redeem her character, rather than continuing that horrible portrayal. But even if her writing was better, Kiora was still defined by her interactions with the Gatewatch (but then again, who isn't?). Without the Gatewatch, Kiora might have even been BFZ's main character. Again, this would require her dialogue not being physically painful to read. But anyone is a more interesting protagonist than Gideon, right?
Sorin and Nahiri - Their conflict was actually well-handled and interesting to read about. What is there to complain about, you ask? Well, this entire plotline was secondary to the Gatewatch's story. This should have been the focus of the block: Sorin as the main protagonist (still an anti-hero, of course), and Nahiri as the villain. But the Gatewatch prevented that.
Arlinn Kord - Two stories. TWO STORIES. The most anticipated and popular new walker we've had in a long time show up in two stories. Nothing related to the main plot. Just two filler stories featuring her, one of which she only made a small appearance in. Characters like Chandra and Nissa, who didn't even get cards in the block, had better representation in the block's story. I'm not even a fan of werewolves or Arlinn, but how the story was handled regarding her was just ridiculous.
Tamiyo - Still showed up in the story a decent amount, but had her rightful color identity stolen by Jace.
Saheeli - Unlike Arlinn, she actually got to interact with the Gatewatch, but did little more than that. So far she's been less important than half the legendary creatures in the block. Can anyone even list some of her character traits besides stuff from her bio? Probably not, because she's done nothing except for minor things for plot convenience.
Tezzeret - As with Ob Nixilis, actually getting to narrate a story or two and not being characterized as a cartoonish, lazily-written, mustache-twirly villain would have been a nice touch.
Dovin is the only planeswalker who was actually decent and hasn't been grossly misrepresented or underused thanks to the Gatewatch. For legendary creatures, it's even worse. Besides the Eldrazi titans, Avacyn, and perhaps Yahenni and Rashmi, have any been anywhere close to as present in their own blocks as the Gatewatch? Most just show up in a story or two to check a box, then disappear and never do anything important again. Of course, this happened to some legends before the Gatewatch. But before the Gatewatch, entire cycles of legendary creatures had major importance on each plane, not just one or two (Khans, Dragonlords, Gods, Guildmasters/Champions, Praetors, etc.). That doesn't happen anymore.
There's also the fact Gatewatch-focused stories tend to be among the worst (the only exceptions Emrakul in Jace's head, and the ones written by the guy who wrote the one on Ravnica and the Chandra vs. Baral one). And, of course, stories completely free of the Gatewatch tend to be among the best. Drana fighting Ulamog, Tazri's mind being warped by Kozilek, Avacyn going mad, the Gitrog Monster, Sorin vs. Nahiri: these are some of the best stories post-Origins (not just in my opinion, but from what I've heard from others, too.) The Gatewatch are completely absent.
What I find distressing is that Kaladesh has fewer stories without the Gatewatch than past blocks have. If future blocks continue featuring the Gatewatch more and more, or even just stay where Kaladesh is, then it's going to get very stale very quickly. That is, if it hasn't already. I'm already very bored of the Gatewatch, as are many other people, and those who defend the Gatewatch now probably will be sick of them pretty soon.
As far as "not focusing enough on non-Gatewatch characters" is concerned, there still needs to be more improvement. Only one block later, we're leaps and bounds better off than SOI block's use of Arlin Kord. Sure her stories were good, but she had absolutely zero impact on the gatewatch, the plane, and the plot. Sorin and Nahiri had a full arc, but even then it was soured for me by just how isolated their plot was. Which brings us to KLD block. The entire plot wouldn't be possible without Kaladesh natives, and the story itself is very fitting for the plane. Sure not every character is given equal attention, but characters are popping in and out of the story, and more importantly, having an impact on the plot. For people claiming that we don't get enough focus on the plane itself, I would argue that the story told here is very unique to Kaladesh, and couldn't be told anywhere else.
I will wait till Amonkhet block is done to make any final conclusions, but I'm actually quite excited, and the complaints I do have are largely either being addressed, or will presumably be addressed soon enough.