Returning to the subject at hand, here's something like what I'd do given the driver's seat:
The Gatewatch confront Nicol Bolas, or the other way around. Jace and Nissa are obliterated in some sort of devastating blast. Gideon is captured, and his mind is conquered by Bolas. Liliana flees, having never been all that into the "good guy" thing. Ajani is badly injured with the loss of a limb, and Chandra has to take him somewhere special to heal him. The Gatewatch is shattered, but will be reformed with a new member or two a few blocks later. Thus, we give the Gatewatch a much needed loss, we get rid of some tedious characters, we defy a few expectations, and we leave the story open for continuation. Plus, the next block or two can move the Gatwatch to subplot status, before it returns to the forefront when people are ready for it.
While it will not happen, I concur that somebody from the GW being controlled by Bolas would be better than simply killing people off.
I second that motion. Also I REALLY don't want to return to disconnected block stories which MIGHT have some importance years later. It became tedious to search for the smallest connections to other stories and characters which appeared for more than one block really fast. The Gatewatch might not be consisting of the most well liked characters around this forum (although the hate for Jace and to a lesser extent Chandra is seriously overblown) but at least they have the potential to become better characters along the way (I would even argue that this is already happening). The writing is inconsistent at times, but it would be like that without the Gatewatch too. Nearly all of us seem to agree that a true loss for the Gatewatch dealt by Bolas is in order (although SOI definitely wasn't a victory for them either). And everything points to that being the case.
Since it was the last post on the last page, I'm reiterating: Move non-Gatewatch discussion to another thread. This thread is about opinions on the Gatewatch. A lot of this belongs in the Amonkhet thread.
The big problem wkth the Gatewatch is that the motivation for being on the team is dumb from a story perspective. Jace can read minds, and if he couldn't, Liliana is obviously in it for herself and a poor example of a black mage who would join a team. And the writing hasn't helped; the section describing Chandra and Gideon hitting the portal was insipid.
The big problem wkth the Gatewatch is that the motivation for being on the team is dumb from a story perspective. Jace can read minds, and if he couldn't, Liliana is obviously in it for herself and a poor example of a black mage who would join a team. And the writing hasn't helped; the section describing Chandra and Gideon hitting the portal was insipid.
One of the things that bothers me most is the motivation for each person joining feels so contrived and forced. Nissa was introduced as an anti-hero (with huge emphasis on the anti part) who is extremely bigoted and ruthless but suddenly she turns into a tree hugging, socially awkward nature hero. Jace and Chandra were also anti-heroes with some serious flaws and selfish characteristics, yet they each suddenly develop a guilt complex, go back to Zendikar, and join the Gatewatch.
Gideon seemed to alternate between hero and anti-villain, so him being in the Gatewatch isn't technically out of character but these overly moral, justice-oriented characters with Superman-like personalities are a thousand times more interesting when they're antagonists in my opinion.
The only character who is still showing their previous flaws and anti-hero tendencies is Liliana. Unfortunately, she is now something of a token anti-hero for the Gatewatch which kind of ruins it for me.
But yeah, I totally agree with you about Jace reading Lili's mind. The characters' powers shift as the plot requires. And the writing quality fluctuates greatly; sometimes it's great, sometimes it's horrible.
I'd like to see physical development in the characters. Time should pass, and they should age, and receive scars for difficult things they do. I'd be able to take the characters more seriously if Gideon's hand was crushed by Ulamog, and Jace's hair was going grey. As is, we're on the "Batman is always 30" model of storytelling, which isn't helpful here. If every block occurs an average of 5 years after the previous, it's been 50 years since they first popped up (as adults) in Lorwyn. I know they actively refuse to use such direct time-stamps, and I know they intend the blocks to fall closer together than that, but the stories that take place from block to block are not stories that happen overnight. Often they are plane-wide wars and cataclysms that would take months, or years to play out. For everything to have happened to these characters in these worlds, it seems like it would have had to have taken at least a decade of constant crap happening, and probably more. That takes a toll. And you're telling me Gideon still has all his eyes, fingers, and toes after jumping into every battle he can planeswalk to? Nonsense. I know they want to keep their main characters sexy, but physical indicators of time passage feel more genuine, and give players a way to track characters that they like, without causing stagnancy.
Sarkhan is an example of a character who you can really track fromiterationtoiteration, given only the cards. Not to say these were handled perfectly, but each card does represent the character at an important point in his arc, and each feels meaningfully different from the last. This is true of none of the Gatewatch members.
All that aside, any major loss for the Gatewatch will lend credibility to the story, and I think we can expect one in the next block. Or this:
The Gatewatch exemplifies the kind of boring, lazy storytelling and cardboard characters that MtG lore has adopted. It reminds me of Marvel Comics in the 90s (surprise). The only reason I see WotC making major changes their top Superhero Team is the realization on their part that people will eventually get bored. So Wizards will make something Fresh! New! Exciting! A tour de force! which will probably be just as crappy as the Gatewatch.
I'd like to see physical development in the characters. Time should pass, and they should age, and receive scars for difficult things they do. I'd be able to take the characters more seriously if Gideon's hand was crushed by Ulamog, and Jace's hair was going grey. As is, we're on the "Batman is always 30" model of storytelling, which isn't helpful here. If every block occurs an average of 5 years after the previous, it's been 50 years since they first popped up (as adults) in Lorwyn. I know they actively refuse to use such direct time-stamps, and I know they intend the blocks to fall closer together than that, but the stories that take place from block to block are not stories that happen overnight. Often they are plane-wide wars and cataclysms that would take months, or years to play out. For everything to have happened to these characters in these worlds, it seems like it would have had to have taken at least a decade of constant crap happening, and probably more. That takes a toll. And you're telling me Gideon still has all his eyes, fingers, and toes after jumping into every battle he can planeswalk to? Nonsense. I know they want to keep their main characters sexy, but physical indicators of time passage feel more genuine, and give players a way to track characters that they like, without causing stagnancy.
Sarkhan is an example of a character who you can really track fromiterationtoiteration, given only the cards. Not to say these were handled perfectly, but each card does represent the character at an important point in his arc, and each feels meaningfully different from the last. This is true of none of the Gatewatch members.
All that aside, any major loss for the Gatewatch will lend credibility to the story, and I think we can expect one in the next block. Or this:
The thing is, blocks don't take place years apart. Each block will (usually) lead into the next, and, before the Gatewatch, multiple consecutive block stories might have been happening simeltaneously. There's no reason why RTR, Theros, and Tarkir couldn't have been happening at the same time. Or maybe not. Idk. Creative has been very evasive as far as an official timeline. Or official maps. Probably so that they don't contradict themselves. They have plenty of contradictions and retcons even without having to juggle maps or timelines.
But yeah, scars and injuries should definitely show up at least on occasion. These are characters who are constantly involved in violent conflicts, after all.
The other thing that bothers me is how planeswalkers often wear the same outfit all the time. Even on planes where it would look out of place. As if the Gatewatch characters didn't feel cartoonish enough already, they need to have exactly one outfit to wear constantly to top it off!
Gideon seems to have new armor for Amonkhet, which is a step in a right direction, but Chandra and Nissa still have only worn one set of clothing ever, despite their extremely high numbers of cards. Then there's Jace, who put on a jacket once for SOI. Other than that, nothing. Liliana seems to have two different dresses, which is better than most characters, but it still seens really out of character for her not to have a lot more than that. Ajani at least gained Elspeth's cloak (and then lost it for the art on the Conquest of Power packaging). Off the top of my head, the only walkers to actually change appearancw and clothing appropriately over time and across planes would be Tezzeret (younger and original arm for 1st card, older with Bolas markings on head and rebuilt arm for 2nd card, Consulate robes for 3rd and 4th) and Sarkhan (as you said, he actually shows change over time).
On the other hand, they also need to keep characters consistent in certain ways. You can't honestly say that Jace, Memory Adept and Oath of Jace look anything alike. That's just an artistic screw up though, which happens when you have different artists. But the artists probably should copy previous cards' art to get a character's face and hair right, for consistency's sake. However, copying the clothing time after time is just lazy and makes it really unrealistic. I'm sorry, but you can't expect me to believe that Jace, who is super rich and basically runs an entire plane's government, can't get himself or his friends a secomd outfit. Seriously.
On the topic of timeline. The events of Alara happened an unknown amount of time ago. But we have only known Jace for three years. This is from Ajani's talk with Tamiyo, where she says Tezz died three years ago(in the earliest story with Jace). They also mention Scars of Mirrodin was two years ago. So we shouldn't see any difference in how they look.
Also you want the man whose main trait is invulnerability to have scars? Do you understand how invulnerability works?
I will agree that them wearing them same close on every plane is kind of ridiculous. However there are many possible rational. The one I've assumed, is that their normal gear is somehow integral to their spell casting(not necessary but makes it easier). Though an equally possible explanation is they are too lazy too change, a rather mundane reason but speaking honestly, in their situation it would be my reason.
I'd like to see physical development in the characters. Time should pass, and they should age, and receive scars for difficult things they do. I'd be able to take the characters more seriously if Gideon's hand was crushed by Ulamog, and Jace's hair was going grey. As is, we're on the "Batman is always 30" model of storytelling, which isn't helpful here. If every block occurs an average of 5 years after the previous, it's been 50 years since they first popped up (as adults) in Lorwyn. I know they actively refuse to use such direct time-stamps, and I know they intend the blocks to fall closer together than that, but the stories that take place from block to block are not stories that happen overnight. Often they are plane-wide wars and cataclysms that would take months, or years to play out. For everything to have happened to these characters in these worlds, it seems like it would have had to have taken at least a decade of constant crap happening, and probably more. That takes a toll. And you're telling me Gideon still has all his eyes, fingers, and toes after jumping into every battle he can planeswalk to? Nonsense. I know they want to keep their main characters sexy, but physical indicators of time passage feel more genuine, and give players a way to track characters that they like, without causing stagnancy.
Sarkhan is an example of a character who you can really track fromiterationtoiteration, given only the cards. Not to say these were handled perfectly, but each card does represent the character at an important point in his arc, and each feels meaningfully different from the last. This is true of none of the Gatewatch members.
All that aside, any major loss for the Gatewatch will lend credibility to the story, and I think we can expect one in the next block. Or this:
The thing is, blocks don't take place years apart. Each block will (usually) lead into the next, and, before the Gatewatch, multiple consecutive block stories might have been happening simeltaneously. There's no reason why RTR, Theros, and Tarkir couldn't have been happening at the same time. Or maybe not. Idk. Creative has been very evasive as far as an official timeline. Or official maps. Probably so that they don't contradict themselves. They have plenty of contradictions and retcons even without having to juggle maps or timelines.
But yeah, scars and injuries should definitely show up at least on occasion. These are characters who are constantly involved in violent conflicts, after all.
The other thing that bothers me is how planeswalkers often wear the same outfit all the time. Even on planes where it would look out of place. As if the Gatewatch characters didn't feel cartoonish enough already, they need to have exactly one outfit to wear constantly to top it off!
Gideon seems to have new armor for Amonkhet, which is a step in a right direction, but Chandra and Nissa still have only worn one set of clothing ever, despite their extremely high numbers of cards. Then there's Jace, who put on a jacket once for SOI. Other than that, nothing. Liliana seems to have two different dresses, which is better than most characters, but it still seens really out of character for her not to have a lot more than that. Ajani at least gained Elspeth's cloak (and then lost it for the art on the Conquest of Power packaging). Off the top of my head, the only walkers to actually change appearancw and clothing appropriately over time and across planes would be Tezzeret (younger and original arm for 1st card, older with Bolas markings on head and rebuilt arm for 2nd card, Consulate robes for 3rd and 4th) and Sarkhan (as you said, he actually shows change over time).
On the other hand, they also need to keep characters consistent in certain ways. You can't honestly say that Jace, Memory Adept and Oath of Jace look anything alike. That's just an artistic screw up though, which happens when you have different artists. But the artists probably should copy previous cards' art to get a character's face and hair right, for consistency's sake. However, copying the clothing time after time is just lazy and makes it really unrealistic. I'm sorry, but you can't expect me to believe that Jace, who is super rich and basically runs an entire plane's government, can't get himself or his friends a secomd outfit. Seriously.
It's a little troubling from a story perspective as well, since they're still maintaining the "masquerade" that they're not planeswalkers when on other planes, yet do nothing to try and blend in with local fashions. It's kind of hard to believe that you're native to Amonkhet when you're dressed like a Bantian knight, Kaladeshi engineer, or Innistradi noblewoman respectively.
And if the characters aren't recognizable without their clothes, then they're poorly designed characters in the first place.
The recent article, Impact, is just the kind of stuff I like to see. I dunno about everyone else, but Liliana blasting out of the wurm and walking in a trance was pretty funny in the description. Very cool, too.
They've eased off on the preachy moments, and it's better for it.
I like the direction taken with the characters. I like the interactions between the characters.
I think the hyperactive all-caps Chandra monologue was amusing, though the end of it maybe could have been trimmed. I understand they were trying to get some exposition through via her stream of consciousness as well - it's a difficult thing to balance. I disagree with those hating on it - it's a fun stylistic choice for Chandra and an nice angle to characterize Red-aligned characters with. Nice they also had her chilling with Nissa.
I appreciate the restraint they have with Nissa - who is a type of character that can veer toward being a Mary Sue if mishandled. They managed to slip in that tag team fight scene with her and Gideon, and it was pretty seamless. Nice going. It seems those two characters get along more implicitly, and I think it works.
Nice details between Jace, Liliana and Chandra. The pov shift between those and the action they were involved in was very fluent. The snark from Liliana toward Jace is funny, and Jace himself is quite endearing.
Jace got a cool scene involving his invisibility during a Chandra pov, it's good to get some token cleverness from him. I'm not sure how he knew about the wurms' diet though. Maybe I missed something, but I don't think it's too important.
Liliana+Necromancy+Gideon stuff was also good.
Gideon's bluescreen at the end, I liked. A little funny the other characters seemed not to believe him, and apparently they had a little argument. I think it made for a cute satire of theological debate. A nice way to deal with such subject matter.
Also points for atmosphere, with respect to both the hellish desert and the city. Can't wait to see more of the set and story unveiled
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Impact is okay with me - although I personally felt it carried over the obvious pattern of "character concentration". Sure, the story is spread across different POVs, but once you piece together the quality of each fragment and compare it with the consistency/supposed growth of each character's past stories, it becomes sort of obvious the story technically focuses on only one or two characters. In Impact, it was Gideon. Actually, never mind that - from the moment when only Gideon caught actual sight of the God exiling undead wurms, they literally spelt that out.
It's like when Emrakul intruded into everyone's minds - Jace was pretty much the only important character in there, Gideon had a part then, yes but he was there more for comparison reasons than developmental ones.
I'm not saying it's bad, especially when we can still consider the Gatewatch to be in its infancy and the character focuses are vital, but eventually they'll need to be able to do this on a deeper level concerning multiple members at the same time and I don't mean Liliana and Gideon fighting in tandem to be an example anywhere near the depth I wanted. I appreciate that the others still get exposure even when the focus is on one or two characters (in fact I liked it in Kaladesh especially with regards to Yaheeni), but when it comes to the Gatwatch members themselves, sometimes the "thrown-in exposure" doesn't gel too well with their character focus and we end up with those "out-of-whack" moments and inconsistencies we see in the Gatewatch.
Bluntly put - outside of Gideon, I would summarize the rest of Gatewatch in Impact as:
Jace - Nothing happened. Yes he admitted he was useless against the undead and knows about Bolas blah blah blah, but everything stated here is a rehash of everything we already know about him. Ironically though it kept him low-profile so as much as it sort of wasted space, it also didn't destabilize his character that much.
Liliana - Actually sort of the same with Jace, we already know she's stringing the Gatewatch along with her plans and acting all confident about Amonkhet when she only been there once for a brief period of time is indeed what she would do. I found it sort of odd that she had enough confidence in the Gatewatch post-wurm-digestion that they would make it past - she didn't even try a last-ditch effort (despite exhaustion, I know she was exhausted) to use the Veil when it was clear that they were all losing against the undead wurms, which felt a bit out-of-character considering the stringing-along and that she's still rather pragmatic (and wants to avoid death at all costs).
Chandra - Oh my, where to start. Kick dragon butt. Yeah I think I could end there. Channelling too much Jaya into Chandra doesn't work as well because Jaya was an oldwalker and was eons above other beings, but Chandra has many restrictions so the same pride/arrogance just seems overly naive (especially when said Dragon was an oldwalker himself older than Sorin and Nahiri combined). Although admittedly the ALL CAPS part when the wurm attacked just crossed the line twice and made that segment funny by iself. The best part was the glass-dome creation though - it shows her capacity to be calm and come up with solutions, I'm just bitter it didn't happen earlier so we could contrast it with her anger at Baral (and hence was unable to make a bunsen dagger to cut the lock back then), because the contrast needed to happen then more badly then it needed to now.
Nissa - Hints of things we already learnt back at Kaladesh, appreciate her level-headness in contrast to the other members of the Gatewatch (even Jace was "go first, regret then suggest a retreat to plan", she outright asked for a plan before they left). Otherwise she's was a walking documentary to tell us the Soul of Amonkhet was no doubt B-aligned.
Ajani - Got out of the article as soon as possible. Best Gatewatch member. 10/10
The latest story, Impact, just highlighted all the things I like and dislike about the Gatewatch. Every time I try to give them some credit as characters, they just completely withdraw into the most basic interpretations of their colors. It's infuriating, especially after Kaladesh block's stories started to finally give some much needed depth to the Gatewatch. It's not that there aren't redeemable aspects of their characters, it's just that their thoughts and actions are so typical, and when they're all together it's even more obvious, since it seems like the writers go out of their way to not only emphasize each color's traits within the mono-colored Gatewatch members, but they take it a step further and make it so that no other character can do anything that could be associated with another color. After all is said and done though, Ajani is still the only Gatewatch member I 100% unequivocally like.
The story is definitely setting them up for a loss of some kind though - I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't expect any of them to die, but I do expect some sort of lasting consequence, and hopefully a color shift or two. Color shifts are the easiest and most visible way WotC can show character growth.
The gatewatch are, in my opinion, a childish and dumbed down magic story line trying to sell the game to children and other non gamer fantasy oriented folks and create brand's for expansion into other media such as movies and games (I actually really want a magic fighting game like Mortal Kombat if it was done right). Its all so basic and forced, these new walkers can't even be considered in the same league as the magic lore of old. Domineria, Old Ravnica, Old Miroden, THAT is magic lore to me.
Also, I bet we get to see the Gatewatch fail to defeat Bolas in Amonket block, and even if they do it will only be through super teamwork friendship power of diversity (insert childish PC crap here). A mere mortal, Umizawa, Killed Bolas. Pre-mending God like plane creating Elder Dragon Bolas. And he basically did it himself. Like most of the new cards they print these days, the Gatewatch are watered down and simplistic.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." —Jaya Ballard, task mage
So I've done a bit of thinking on what I want of the Gatewatch (apart from "to go away", because I know and accept that's not going to happen). And I think a lot of my problems would be solved, or at least lessened, if they were made side or supporting characters. They can be the thread that connects the block stories together, but not the main focus. Instead, the main characters of each block story should be inhabitants of the plane. After all, they're the ones who are suffering from the problems and conflicts of the new setting. They're the ones with investment, and with something at stake. They're the ones who should guide the change, because they're the ones who have actual, real reason to care about the conflict, and the ones who have to live - or die - with the consequences. I want to see how the conflicts of the world affect the inhabitants and how those characters solve their problems, not watch these random outsiders who have no reason to care ponce onto the plane, solve everyone's problems for them, then fart off to do it all over again. I'd be more invested in the people who have to live with it, not the people who literally just got here and can leap off the world any time they want.
For example, the Amonkhet story. The main character could be a priest of the God-Pharoah Bolas. Perhaps she's been experiencing some sort of doubt towards her god, or sees something that makes her question her belief. Jace, reading her mind and realising this, can use that to further the doubt in her mind. Maybe she says the wrong thing to higher priests, or the public, and she's ostracised, maybe even sentenced to death, but Nissa can pull some weird nature/land-hoodoo to give her sanctuary in the wild deserts. Perhaps this priest can have a friend in a young Aven warrior who's keen to try the trials, and she can confide in him. Though he has questions and doubts, he puts trust in his friend, and he and Gideon together can fight their way through the trials to find some truth to what's going on.
That was cooked up really quickly, but I think it gets my point across - the Gatewatch are there, doing their thing, but the spotlight is on the outcast priest and the Aven warrior. The Gatewatch are supporting them and helping them out, but the ones we follow are the ones who are actually invested in the conflicts of the plane. That would go a long way towards solving a lot of my problems with the Gatewatch.
So I've done a bit of thinking on what I want of the Gatewatch (apart from "to go away", because I know and accept that's not going to happen). And I think a lot of my problems would be solved, or at least lessened, if they were made side or supporting characters. They can be the thread that connects the block stories together, but not the main focus. Instead, the main characters of each block story should be inhabitants of the plane. After all, they're the ones who are suffering from the problems and conflicts of the new setting. They're the ones with investment, and with something at stake. They're the ones who should guide the change, because they're the ones who have actual, real reason to care about the conflict, and the ones who have to live - or die - with the consequences. I want to see how the conflicts of the world affect the inhabitants and how those characters solve their problems, not watch these random outsiders who have no reason to care ponce onto the plane, solve everyone's problems for them, then fart off to do it all over again. I'd be more invested in the people who have to live with it, not the people who literally just got here and can leap off the world any time they want.
For example, the Amonkhet story. The main character could be a priest of the God-Pharoah Bolas. Perhaps she's been experiencing some sort of doubt towards her god, or sees something that makes her question her belief. Jace, reading her mind and realising this, can use that to further the doubt in her mind. Maybe she says the wrong thing to higher priests, or the public, and she's ostracised, maybe even sentenced to death, but Nissa can pull some weird nature/land-hoodoo to give her sanctuary in the wild deserts. Perhaps this priest can have a friend in a young Aven warrior who's keen to try the trials, and she can confide in him. Though he has questions and doubts, he puts trust in his friend, and he and Gideon together can fight their way through the trials to find some truth to what's going on.
That was cooked up really quickly, but I think it gets my point across - the Gatewatch are there, doing their thing, but the spotlight is on the outcast priest and the Aven warrior. The Gatewatch are supporting them and helping them out, but the ones we follow are the ones who are actually invested in the conflicts of the plane. That would go a long way towards solving a lot of my problems with the Gatewatch.
I don't know. When you deal with people who are established in a plane, you end up in this weird scenario where they're explaining things they grew up with or understand, yet feel the need to elaborate on by themselves so that the audience isn't completely lost. And I don't think that would change what the stories have been for...a long while now?
Alara had two Planeswalkers (one from the plane, one who made the plane home) dealing with the machinations of an extraplanar threat manipulating the denizens of the plane (and who have never returned home)
Zendikar had...well, the trapping, release, and destruction of an extraplanar threat over the course of a few millenia, manipulating the denizens of the plane (and the planeswalkers)
Scars of Mirrodin had three planeswalkers band together against an intraplanar threat with extraplanar origins, manipulating the denizens of the plane.
Innistrad had, in the first block: Two planeswalkers hunting something while the world burned (and was ultimately saved by one of those walkers manipulating denizens of the plane), which in the second block resulted in an extraplanar threat that manipulated the denizens of the plane.
Return to Ravnica had an intraplanar war that was resolved by an extraplanar entity, who manipulated its denizens into a short, tenuous understanding.
Theros had an intraplanar, but capable of extraplanar travel entity attempting to manipulate the denizens of the plane until he was ultimately stopped by an extraplanar being.
Tarkir had a group of intraplanar, but capable of extraplanar travel entities struggling to manipulate things in a way that was beneficial to them (Sarkhan for dragons, Ugin for life), ultimately foiling the plans of another extraplanar entity who had done a bad thing 1280 years ago, which partially involved manipulating denizens of the plane.
And then the Gatewatch...didn't really change anything short of giving them a team name and connecting the plots more thoroughly.
Like, if you go back further, to the stories that only dedicated/interested people read, research, or examine you start getting stories with more intraplanar focus, more akin to what you described, but we haven't had a block with a story not focused on a Planeswalker since Lorwyn.
I dunno. I get the issue, but I don't think the Gatewatch has changed as much as people think in regards to the story.
And then the Gatewatch...didn't really change anything short of giving them a team name and connecting the plots more thoroughly.
Like, if you go back further, to the stories that only dedicated/interested people read, research, or examine you start getting stories with more intraplanar focus, more akin to what you described, but we haven't had a block with a story not focused on a Planeswalker since Lorwyn.
I dunno. I get the issue, but I don't think the Gatewatch has changed as much as people think in regards to the story.
I didn't say the stories had to fundamentally change everything. Look at my given example - it's still the same basic storyline of "Bolas doing some shady nonsense on the plane where he's worshiped as a god, let's get to the bottom of it" (we don't really know much more than that). All it does is shift the spotlight onto a different set of characters, ones who have much more reason to be invested in the conflict and therefore would be easier for the audience to get invested in (I know it would for me, at least).
I don't know. When you deal with people who are established in a plane, you end up in this weird scenario where they're explaining things they grew up with or understand, yet feel the need to elaborate on by themselves so that the audience isn't completely lost
That's the way it is in every fantasy story. It's not a difficult trap to avoid with some level of decent writing ("show, don't tell" is like, Storytelling 101). If nothing else, the Gatewatch can be around to be the main characters' Watsons.
Still think its going to be Gideon serving NB. Was wavering before on which member, but with the spotlight focus on Gideon, he seems like a prime candidate. His body is unbreakable, but his mind is just as vulnerable as Liliana or Nissa's. Gideon serving Nicol Bolas via mind magic or a faustian pact would be just right. As it leaves Gideon alive but turned, which in turn means their is more story potential there than him being unchanged. So far Amonkhet has proven to be quite a harsh place. Sandstorms, wurms and the undead nearly defeated them. If it weren't for a deus in carne, easily two-three of them would have died. If the story keeps this tone, it would seem likely we might lose one of the GW members. Also Gideon doing these trials somewhat reminds me of Hercules and his tasks.
zwomally asked: We have another Standard environment with a top level Lilliana and Gideon. I get you want to push the Gatewatch but the same ones is a little tiring.
When we started with the Gatewatch storyline, we began with the assumption that the Gatewatch, the core five, at least, should always be represented on planeswalker cards in Standard. (And remember Standard was 18 months at the time.) As we started to roll this plan out, we got feedback from many of you that this was problematic.
Yes, you wanted Gatewatch planeswalkers but we didn’t need to do them so often. You wanted the opportunity to see other favorites return or have new planeswalkers in some of those slots.
We heard you, but we work far ahead so there’s always a gap before you can see us react to feedback. Hours of Devastation was the first set that we could revamp how we did this. So starting with Hour, we’ve pulled back significantly on how often Gatewatch planeswalkers appear. They’ll appear when it’s important but at a much slower rate. We will use those slots instead to do more returning and new planeswalkers.
Good news for story's sake. I'm sure they were hoping the Gatewatch would be mainstream and loved, but the members just lack that charm. They could've use the Tamiyo story group, it would've been much more attractive.
zwomally asked: We have another Standard environment with a top level Lilliana and Gideon. I get you want to push the Gatewatch but the same ones is a little tiring.
When we started with the Gatewatch storyline, we began with the assumption that the Gatewatch, the core five, at least, should always be represented on planeswalker cards in Standard. (And remember Standard was 18 months at the time.) As we started to roll this plan out, we got feedback from many of you that this was problematic.
Yes, you wanted Gatewatch planeswalkers but we didn’t need to do them so often. You wanted the opportunity to see other favorites return or have new planeswalkers in some of those slots.
We heard you, but we work far ahead so there’s always a gap before you can see us react to feedback. Hours of Devastation was the first set that we could revamp how we did this. So starting with Hour, we’ve pulled back significantly on how often Gatewatch planeswalkers appear. They’ll appear when it’s important but at a much slower rate. We will use those slots instead to do more returning and new planeswalkers.
Good news for story's sake. I'm sure they were hoping the Gatewatch would be mainstream and loved, but the members just lack that charm. They could've use the Tamiyo story group, it would've been much more attractive.
Has nothing to do with the gatewatch leaving the story it has to do with the planeswalkers card slots. The gatewatch will still be around just not in card form as often.
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Good news for story's sake. I'm sure they were hoping the Gatewatch would be mainstream and loved, but the members just lack that charm. They could've use the Tamiyo story group, it would've been much more attractive.
Has nothing to do with the gatewatch leaving the story it has to do with the planeswalkers card slots. The gatewatch will still be around just not in card form as often.
Yes, I know. I read the blog, mind you. I was merely saying that it's good for the story when they're used less often, as a card or otherwise, because people can grow tiresome to see their face everywhere, it's a personal opinion.
I'm sure a lot of people had complained to Wizards about the mess that is Gatewatch personalities, which MaRo obviously would not speak it here.
I'm sure a lot of people had complained to Wizards about the mess that is Gatewatch personalities, which MaRo obviously would not speak it here.
Maro has been fairly open about the criticism he receives. He is also vocal about how much 'the majority' of players like them. So if they were getting a flood of complaints on the Gatewatch's personalities Maro would talk about it, though probably to explain why they are the way they are rather than to say its a mistake.
If they were going to go with planeswalkers forming an alliance, I'd rather have seen Sorin, Ral Zarek, Kiora, Garruk, and possibly Ashiok together. Why? Because can you imagine the absolute hell the multiverse would have to be in to get those guys to actually team up? We're talking total Guardians of the galaxy level madness here. Especially Garruk considering he sees every other walker as prey.
Actually, they really should try to find a way to get Garruk into the Gatewatch. I'd love to see how they manage it given he's a walking death machine.
I concur. The Gatewatch can use a green guy to be the Incredible Hulk.
I'm sure a lot of people had complained to Wizards about the mess that is Gatewatch personalities, which MaRo obviously would not speak it here.
Maro has been fairly open about the criticism he receives. He is also vocal about how much 'the majority' of players like them. So if they were getting a flood of complaints on the Gatewatch's personalities Maro would talk about it, though probably to explain why they are the way they are rather than to say its a mistake.
Has he ever commented on the lore in the past? As in, story needing improvement or retcon.
Just curious, since I don't follow his blog regularly.
The Gatewatch confront Nicol Bolas, or the other way around. Jace and Nissa are obliterated in some sort of devastating blast. Gideon is captured, and his mind is conquered by Bolas. Liliana flees, having never been all that into the "good guy" thing. Ajani is badly injured with the loss of a limb, and Chandra has to take him somewhere special to heal him. The Gatewatch is shattered, but will be reformed with a new member or two a few blocks later. Thus, we give the Gatewatch a much needed loss, we get rid of some tedious characters, we defy a few expectations, and we leave the story open for continuation. Plus, the next block or two can move the Gatwatch to subplot status, before it returns to the forefront when people are ready for it.
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I second that motion. Also I REALLY don't want to return to disconnected block stories which MIGHT have some importance years later. It became tedious to search for the smallest connections to other stories and characters which appeared for more than one block really fast. The Gatewatch might not be consisting of the most well liked characters around this forum (although the hate for Jace and to a lesser extent Chandra is seriously overblown) but at least they have the potential to become better characters along the way (I would even argue that this is already happening). The writing is inconsistent at times, but it would be like that without the Gatewatch too. Nearly all of us seem to agree that a true loss for the Gatewatch dealt by Bolas is in order (although SOI definitely wasn't a victory for them either). And everything points to that being the case.
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One of the things that bothers me most is the motivation for each person joining feels so contrived and forced. Nissa was introduced as an anti-hero (with huge emphasis on the anti part) who is extremely bigoted and ruthless but suddenly she turns into a tree hugging, socially awkward nature hero. Jace and Chandra were also anti-heroes with some serious flaws and selfish characteristics, yet they each suddenly develop a guilt complex, go back to Zendikar, and join the Gatewatch.
Gideon seemed to alternate between hero and anti-villain, so him being in the Gatewatch isn't technically out of character but these overly moral, justice-oriented characters with Superman-like personalities are a thousand times more interesting when they're antagonists in my opinion.
The only character who is still showing their previous flaws and anti-hero tendencies is Liliana. Unfortunately, she is now something of a token anti-hero for the Gatewatch which kind of ruins it for me.
But yeah, I totally agree with you about Jace reading Lili's mind. The characters' powers shift as the plot requires. And the writing quality fluctuates greatly; sometimes it's great, sometimes it's horrible.
Sarkhan is an example of a character who you can really track from iteration to iteration, given only the cards. Not to say these were handled perfectly, but each card does represent the character at an important point in his arc, and each feels meaningfully different from the last. This is true of none of the Gatewatch members.
All that aside, any major loss for the Gatewatch will lend credibility to the story, and I think we can expect one in the next block. Or this:
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The thing is, blocks don't take place years apart. Each block will (usually) lead into the next, and, before the Gatewatch, multiple consecutive block stories might have been happening simeltaneously. There's no reason why RTR, Theros, and Tarkir couldn't have been happening at the same time. Or maybe not. Idk. Creative has been very evasive as far as an official timeline. Or official maps. Probably so that they don't contradict themselves. They have plenty of contradictions and retcons even without having to juggle maps or timelines.
But yeah, scars and injuries should definitely show up at least on occasion. These are characters who are constantly involved in violent conflicts, after all.
The other thing that bothers me is how planeswalkers often wear the same outfit all the time. Even on planes where it would look out of place. As if the Gatewatch characters didn't feel cartoonish enough already, they need to have exactly one outfit to wear constantly to top it off!
Gideon seems to have new armor for Amonkhet, which is a step in a right direction, but Chandra and Nissa still have only worn one set of clothing ever, despite their extremely high numbers of cards. Then there's Jace, who put on a jacket once for SOI. Other than that, nothing. Liliana seems to have two different dresses, which is better than most characters, but it still seens really out of character for her not to have a lot more than that. Ajani at least gained Elspeth's cloak (and then lost it for the art on the Conquest of Power packaging). Off the top of my head, the only walkers to actually change appearancw and clothing appropriately over time and across planes would be Tezzeret (younger and original arm for 1st card, older with Bolas markings on head and rebuilt arm for 2nd card, Consulate robes for 3rd and 4th) and Sarkhan (as you said, he actually shows change over time).
On the other hand, they also need to keep characters consistent in certain ways. You can't honestly say that Jace, Memory Adept and Oath of Jace look anything alike. That's just an artistic screw up though, which happens when you have different artists. But the artists probably should copy previous cards' art to get a character's face and hair right, for consistency's sake. However, copying the clothing time after time is just lazy and makes it really unrealistic. I'm sorry, but you can't expect me to believe that Jace, who is super rich and basically runs an entire plane's government, can't get himself or his friends a secomd outfit. Seriously.
Also you want the man whose main trait is invulnerability to have scars? Do you understand how invulnerability works?
I will agree that them wearing them same close on every plane is kind of ridiculous. However there are many possible rational. The one I've assumed, is that their normal gear is somehow integral to their spell casting(not necessary but makes it easier). Though an equally possible explanation is they are too lazy too change, a rather mundane reason but speaking honestly, in their situation it would be my reason.
It's a little troubling from a story perspective as well, since they're still maintaining the "masquerade" that they're not planeswalkers when on other planes, yet do nothing to try and blend in with local fashions. It's kind of hard to believe that you're native to Amonkhet when you're dressed like a Bantian knight, Kaladeshi engineer, or Innistradi noblewoman respectively.
And if the characters aren't recognizable without their clothes, then they're poorly designed characters in the first place.
The recent article, Impact, is just the kind of stuff I like to see. I dunno about everyone else, but Liliana blasting out of the wurm and walking in a trance was pretty funny in the description. Very cool, too.
They've eased off on the preachy moments, and it's better for it.
I like the direction taken with the characters. I like the interactions between the characters.
I think the hyperactive all-caps Chandra monologue was amusing, though the end of it maybe could have been trimmed. I understand they were trying to get some exposition through via her stream of consciousness as well - it's a difficult thing to balance. I disagree with those hating on it - it's a fun stylistic choice for Chandra and an nice angle to characterize Red-aligned characters with. Nice they also had her chilling with Nissa.
I appreciate the restraint they have with Nissa - who is a type of character that can veer toward being a Mary Sue if mishandled. They managed to slip in that tag team fight scene with her and Gideon, and it was pretty seamless. Nice going. It seems those two characters get along more implicitly, and I think it works.
Nice details between Jace, Liliana and Chandra. The pov shift between those and the action they were involved in was very fluent. The snark from Liliana toward Jace is funny, and Jace himself is quite endearing.
Jace got a cool scene involving his invisibility during a Chandra pov, it's good to get some token cleverness from him. I'm not sure how he knew about the wurms' diet though. Maybe I missed something, but I don't think it's too important.
Liliana+Necromancy+Gideon stuff was also good.
Gideon's bluescreen at the end, I liked. A little funny the other characters seemed not to believe him, and apparently they had a little argument. I think it made for a cute satire of theological debate. A nice way to deal with such subject matter.
Also points for atmosphere, with respect to both the hellish desert and the city. Can't wait to see more of the set and story unveiled
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It's like when Emrakul intruded into everyone's minds - Jace was pretty much the only important character in there, Gideon had a part then, yes but he was there more for comparison reasons than developmental ones.
I'm not saying it's bad, especially when we can still consider the Gatewatch to be in its infancy and the character focuses are vital, but eventually they'll need to be able to do this on a deeper level concerning multiple members at the same time and I don't mean Liliana and Gideon fighting in tandem to be an example anywhere near the depth I wanted. I appreciate that the others still get exposure even when the focus is on one or two characters (in fact I liked it in Kaladesh especially with regards to Yaheeni), but when it comes to the Gatwatch members themselves, sometimes the "thrown-in exposure" doesn't gel too well with their character focus and we end up with those "out-of-whack" moments and inconsistencies we see in the Gatewatch.
Bluntly put - outside of Gideon, I would summarize the rest of Gatewatch in Impact as:
Jace - Nothing happened. Yes he admitted he was useless against the undead and knows about Bolas blah blah blah, but everything stated here is a rehash of everything we already know about him. Ironically though it kept him low-profile so as much as it sort of wasted space, it also didn't destabilize his character that much.
Liliana - Actually sort of the same with Jace, we already know she's stringing the Gatewatch along with her plans and acting all confident about Amonkhet when she only been there once for a brief period of time is indeed what she would do. I found it sort of odd that she had enough confidence in the Gatewatch post-wurm-digestion that they would make it past - she didn't even try a last-ditch effort (despite exhaustion, I know she was exhausted) to use the Veil when it was clear that they were all losing against the undead wurms, which felt a bit out-of-character considering the stringing-along and that she's still rather pragmatic (and wants to avoid death at all costs).
Chandra - Oh my, where to start. Kick dragon butt. Yeah I think I could end there. Channelling too much Jaya into Chandra doesn't work as well because Jaya was an oldwalker and was eons above other beings, but Chandra has many restrictions so the same pride/arrogance just seems overly naive (especially when said Dragon was an oldwalker himself older than Sorin and Nahiri combined). Although admittedly the ALL CAPS part when the wurm attacked just crossed the line twice and made that segment funny by iself. The best part was the glass-dome creation though - it shows her capacity to be calm and come up with solutions, I'm just bitter it didn't happen earlier so we could contrast it with her anger at Baral (and hence was unable to make a bunsen dagger to cut the lock back then), because the contrast needed to happen then more badly then it needed to now.
Nissa - Hints of things we already learnt back at Kaladesh, appreciate her level-headness in contrast to the other members of the Gatewatch (even Jace was "go first, regret then suggest a retreat to plan", she outright asked for a plan before they left). Otherwise she's was a walking documentary to tell us the Soul of Amonkhet was no doubt B-aligned.
Ajani - Got out of the article as soon as possible. Best Gatewatch member. 10/10
The story is definitely setting them up for a loss of some kind though - I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't expect any of them to die, but I do expect some sort of lasting consequence, and hopefully a color shift or two. Color shifts are the easiest and most visible way WotC can show character growth.
Also, I bet we get to see the Gatewatch fail to defeat Bolas in Amonket block, and even if they do it will only be through super teamwork friendship power of diversity (insert childish PC crap here). A mere mortal, Umizawa, Killed Bolas. Pre-mending God like plane creating Elder Dragon Bolas. And he basically did it himself. Like most of the new cards they print these days, the Gatewatch are watered down and simplistic.
For example, the Amonkhet story. The main character could be a priest of the God-Pharoah Bolas. Perhaps she's been experiencing some sort of doubt towards her god, or sees something that makes her question her belief. Jace, reading her mind and realising this, can use that to further the doubt in her mind. Maybe she says the wrong thing to higher priests, or the public, and she's ostracised, maybe even sentenced to death, but Nissa can pull some weird nature/land-hoodoo to give her sanctuary in the wild deserts. Perhaps this priest can have a friend in a young Aven warrior who's keen to try the trials, and she can confide in him. Though he has questions and doubts, he puts trust in his friend, and he and Gideon together can fight their way through the trials to find some truth to what's going on.
That was cooked up really quickly, but I think it gets my point across - the Gatewatch are there, doing their thing, but the spotlight is on the outcast priest and the Aven warrior. The Gatewatch are supporting them and helping them out, but the ones we follow are the ones who are actually invested in the conflicts of the plane. That would go a long way towards solving a lot of my problems with the Gatewatch.
I don't know. When you deal with people who are established in a plane, you end up in this weird scenario where they're explaining things they grew up with or understand, yet feel the need to elaborate on by themselves so that the audience isn't completely lost. And I don't think that would change what the stories have been for...a long while now?
Alara had two Planeswalkers (one from the plane, one who made the plane home) dealing with the machinations of an extraplanar threat manipulating the denizens of the plane (and who have never returned home)
Zendikar had...well, the trapping, release, and destruction of an extraplanar threat over the course of a few millenia, manipulating the denizens of the plane (and the planeswalkers)
Scars of Mirrodin had three planeswalkers band together against an intraplanar threat with extraplanar origins, manipulating the denizens of the plane.
Innistrad had, in the first block: Two planeswalkers hunting something while the world burned (and was ultimately saved by one of those walkers manipulating denizens of the plane), which in the second block resulted in an extraplanar threat that manipulated the denizens of the plane.
Return to Ravnica had an intraplanar war that was resolved by an extraplanar entity, who manipulated its denizens into a short, tenuous understanding.
Theros had an intraplanar, but capable of extraplanar travel entity attempting to manipulate the denizens of the plane until he was ultimately stopped by an extraplanar being.
Tarkir had a group of intraplanar, but capable of extraplanar travel entities struggling to manipulate things in a way that was beneficial to them (Sarkhan for dragons, Ugin for life), ultimately foiling the plans of another extraplanar entity who had done a bad thing 1280 years ago, which partially involved manipulating denizens of the plane.
And then the Gatewatch...didn't really change anything short of giving them a team name and connecting the plots more thoroughly.
Like, if you go back further, to the stories that only dedicated/interested people read, research, or examine you start getting stories with more intraplanar focus, more akin to what you described, but we haven't had a block with a story not focused on a Planeswalker since Lorwyn.
I dunno. I get the issue, but I don't think the Gatewatch has changed as much as people think in regards to the story.
That's the way it is in every fantasy story. It's not a difficult trap to avoid with some level of decent writing ("show, don't tell" is like, Storytelling 101). If nothing else, the Gatewatch can be around to be the main characters' Watsons.
Good news for story's sake. I'm sure they were hoping the Gatewatch would be mainstream and loved, but the members just lack that charm. They could've use the Tamiyo story group, it would've been much more attractive.
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Has nothing to do with the gatewatch leaving the story it has to do with the planeswalkers card slots. The gatewatch will still be around just not in card form as often.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Yes, I know. I read the blog, mind you. I was merely saying that it's good for the story when they're used less often, as a card or otherwise, because people can grow tiresome to see their face everywhere, it's a personal opinion.
I'm sure a lot of people had complained to Wizards about the mess that is Gatewatch personalities, which MaRo obviously would not speak it here.
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Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
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Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
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"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
I concur. The Gatewatch can use a green guy to be the Incredible Hulk.
Has he ever commented on the lore in the past? As in, story needing improvement or retcon.
Just curious, since I don't follow his blog regularly.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs