Point to remember,
1: Ugin on his own can't beat eldrazis.
2: Bolas on his own can't beat Ugin.
3: Jacestus League beat eldrazis.
Jacestus League > Bolas = ?
If they lose cause they don't have the power to beat bolas with magic then this has worse consistancy than Bleach the manga.
Let me fix this for you.
1: Ugin on his own didn't want to beat the Eldrazi, and all but confirms to Jace that he could
2: Bolas on his on beat Ugin
3: Jacestus League are currently 2/3 on the Eldrazi.
Jacestus League < Bolas = ?
If they win cause they have the power to beat bolas with magic then this has worse consistency than the Bleach manga.
There we go, now its consistent with facts rather than opinions.
Let me fix this for you.
1: Ugin on his own didn't want to beat the Eldrazi, and all but confirms to Jace that he could
2: Bolas on his on beat Ugin
3: Jacestus League are currently 2/3 on the Eldrazi.
Jacestus League < Bolas = ?
If they win cause they have the power to beat bolas with magic then this has worse consistency than the Bleach manga.
There we go, now its consistent with facts rather than opinions.
Flaws with your views,
1. Ugin couldn't or else he wouldn't have sacrificed multiple worlds to them. I mean Nahiri, Sorin and Ugin watched worlds litterally die infront of them.
2. Bolas needed help from all the tarkir dragons (Created by Ugin) to attack Ugin using Yasova Dragonclaw's help.
3. Jacestus League literally burned to death two eldrazis to death and managed to prevent one from taking Innistrad by sealing it away in the moon.
So by that logic, Jacestus League > Bolas = ?
"If they win cause they have the power to beat bolas with magic then this has worse consistency than the Bleach manga."
We don't know if Ugin could or could not have defeated the Eldrazi. He wasn't interested. Him letting worlds die could easily have been him studying, and he didn't have the capability, at the time, to utilize all the various kinds of magic he needed to seal them. Ugin doesn't strike me as terribly concerned with individual worlds, more an overall balance of the Multiverse.
We don't know how a one on one fight would've gone between Ugin and Bolas because neither attempted to land any kind of blow before Ugin used his magic to call the dragons to attack Bolas. The fact that Bolas prepped for that via Yasova is a testament to the forethought put into his fight. In addition to the fact that Bolas fought Ugin on what is arguably his home turf, which has been shown to be a significant advantage to Pre-mending walkers.
The Gatewatch didn't stop Emrakul. Emrakul stopped Emrakul. The Gatewatch just provided the path for her. They also wouldn't have been able to even do that without Tamiyo.
I don't think the Gatewatch are going to win. But I also don't think things are as cut and dry as you make them out to be.
Let me fix this for you.
1: Ugin on his own didn't want to beat the Eldrazi, and all but confirms to Jace that he could
2: Bolas on his on beat Ugin
3: Jacestus League are currently 2/3 on the Eldrazi.
Jacestus League < Bolas = ?
If they win cause they have the power to beat bolas with magic then this has worse consistency than the Bleach manga.
There we go, now its consistent with facts rather than opinions.
Flaws with your views,
1. Ugin couldn't or else he wouldn't have sacrificed multiple worlds to them. I mean Nahiri, Sorin and Ugin watched worlds litterally die infront of them.
2. Bolas needed help from all the tarkir dragons (Created by Ugin) to attack Ugin using Yasova Dragonclaw's help.
3. Jacestus League literally burned to death two eldrazis to death and managed to prevent one from taking Innistrad by sealing it away in the moon.
So by that logic, Jacestus League > Bolas = ?
"If they win cause they have the power to beat bolas with magic then this has worse consistency than the Bleach manga."
No my statements are based on fact, I'll even post them so we can be on the same page.
1. From ZENDIKAR RESURGENT. This is as "I could have easily have destroyed them, but insignificant worms such as yourself shouldn't have been able to." as you can get without being verbatim.
"Yes, yes," said Ugin. "It all follows. You could hold them using the glyph, but without the hedrons to bleed off energy and hold the leylines in place, your only options were to let the titans go or pull them fully into physical space and destroy them."
Jace blinked.
"You said that wasn't possible."
"I said it wasn't possible for you," said Ugin. "And you led me to believe you weren't going to try, so spare me your sanctimony."
2. Ugin couldn't win on his own so he summoned his brood, which Bolas turned against him. Remove the third parties and Bolas is still ahead.
3. You can claim all you want that the Gatewatch beat Emrakul, but it doesn't make it true it is only more whining about not liking subtleties. They are 2 for 3 against the Eldrazi.
So once again my statements are based in facts as presented while your complaints are based on opinion. You can actually debate these points but if you just keep using opinion that is directly contradicted by fact you don't really stand a chance.
His point wasn't about mono-colored Planeswalkers, it was about mono-colored Characters.
Which is also why I feel rather annoyed when players AND Wizards see Ravnica guilds as the prime guidance for characters/cards of two colors. Guilds were created under political and environmental pressure, that doesn't make them the only way to imagine dual-color characters. W/R characters can be loyal zealots like Boros, but they could also be volatile but good nature figures like Bruse Tarl. (Stop making combat centric W/R cards only!)
A little off-topic, but the original Ravnica was actually quite original in terms of exploring two-color identities. For examle G/W characters are usually the good guys in stories who care about the common people and nature at the same time. But in original Ravnica the Selesnyans were like a cult trying to brainwash people into joining their ranks and become a part of some sort of collective consciousness. This can be seen on cards like Glare of Subdual, Hour of Reckoning or Selesnya Evangel. And to this day, Ghazi-Glare remains the only G/W control deck I've ever heard of. They were of course changed in RTR to generic tree-loving good guys. Also I hate Emmara.
The Orzhov were also quite original in my opinion. I don't know of any B/W characters before Ravnica, but most of the B/W cards gave the vibe of doing something heavy for the greater good. See Gerrard's Verdict or Vindicate. But the Orzhov were like pure white on the outside, promising afterlife and preaching to the community about virtue. But inside, they were just pure black. Instead of giving the afterlife they promised they enslaved the souls who were foolish enough to trust them. So basically there was no greater good, just white masking the black.
Simic were also quite original. As far as I know that was the first time U/G got associated with stretching the laws of nature to a dangerous limit. The Simic were also one of the major bad guys in the story, even though U/G is usually a positive color combination.
Some combinations, like the Dimir, were pretty stereotypical though. But I don't think the problem is trying to stay too close to Ravnica, seeing as the original one was quite experimental. They actually retconned a lot of the guilds in RTR with Selesnya being the prime example. I think Wotc is just too obsessed with sticking to their definition of the color pie lately. The only two positive black characters we got since Toshiro were Yahenni and Sorin, both of which are vampires so they are automatically made black...
Hm, I question that actually. The guilds did change in Return to Ravnica, but they weren't really retconned. They just shifted their own definition around: Dimir and Gruul got less stereotypical (Dimir now at least employing journalists, librarians and other information brokers open to the general public and Gruul being more like the "Guildpact" novel Gruul, misunderstood and shunned by the other guilds instead of purely destructive). Even the positive sides of the Rakdos guild was emphasized (mainly providing for the entertainment industry). Simic and Selesnya both had to change and lose or at least hide (which is strongly emplied) their negative sides since they were (in the eyes of the public) responsible for the slaughters at the end of the "Ravnica" and "Dissension" novels respectively. They just couldn't have continued as guilds otherwise (and the Simic were the only guild who had to do that before RtR). The same goes for the Golgari, who were much more power-hungry in the original block. Some guild combinations, Simic in particular for example never had any real identity before Ravnica anyway. Since it is my favorite color pair I was relieved that they weren't "evilutionists" this time around, while still keeping some creepy characteristics (see Experiment One for example).
Other color pairs on the other hand got more aggressive, including Boros (which were mostly portrayed in a positive light before) and Azorius (making preemptive moves against any kind of perceived law-breakers, which leads to Vraska for example declaring her vengeance against the system). Izzet and Orzhov stayed more or less the same (Izzet mostly just chaotic neutral, Orzhov evil to a certain degree, though also providing necessary services and with a few decent characters like Teysa).
All in all, Return to Ravnica was a pretty good developement for the guilds, showing how much depth there is in the color pie. In my opinion these changes show how much more than the guilds there is to the two-color pairs (see Dragons of Tarkir for example, where the broods don't have much in common with their guild equivalents besides a few superficial characteristics). You are also forgetting Drana, Erebos, Anafenza and Gonthi as positive characters with black color identities. Granted they didn't have as great an impact on the plot, but still.
A little off-topic, but the original Ravnica was actually quite original in terms of exploring two-color identities. For examle G/W characters are usually the good guys in stories who care about the common people and nature at the same time. But in original Ravnica the Selesnyans were like a cult trying to brainwash people into joining their ranks and become a part of some sort of collective consciousness. This can be seen on cards like Glare of Subdual, Hour of Reckoning or Selesnya Evangel. And to this day, Ghazi-Glare remains the only G/W control deck I've ever heard of. They were of course changed in RTR to generic tree-loving good guys. Also I hate Emmara.
The Orzhov were also quite original in my opinion. I don't know of any B/W characters before Ravnica, but most of the B/W cards gave the vibe of doing something heavy for the greater good. See Gerrard's Verdict or Vindicate. But the Orzhov were like pure white on the outside, promising afterlife and preaching to the community about virtue. But inside, they were just pure black. Instead of giving the afterlife they promised they enslaved the souls who were foolish enough to trust them. So basically there was no greater good, just white masking the black.
Simic were also quite original. As far as I know that was the first time U/G got associated with stretching the laws of nature to a dangerous limit. The Simic were also one of the major bad guys in the story, even though U/G is usually a positive color combination.
Some combinations, like the Dimir, were pretty stereotypical though. But I don't think the problem is trying to stay too close to Ravnica, seeing as the original one was quite experimental. They actually retconned a lot of the guilds in RTR with Selesnya being the prime example. I think Wotc is just too obsessed with sticking to their definition of the color pie lately. The only two positive black characters we got since Toshiro were Yahenni and Sorin, both of which are vampires so they are automatically made black...
They were indeed original, never said otherwise, but much of the creativity STOPS there, rather than improve, adapt, explore. For example, Wizards regularly does survey to see which mechanics were liked by the players, and depends on how balance they were, more popular ones will more likely see return. Hellbent, Haunt, Forecast, etc, were abandoned due to low popularity even when they represent the image of their respective guilds.
From business point of view it's the right thing to do, but many great ideas were lost when they could've been utilized. Which is why Time Spiral remains one of my favorite block because of how Wizards combine and create new ideas base on the old freely.
His point wasn't about mono-colored Planeswalkers, it was about mono-colored Characters.
Which is also why I feel rather annoyed when players AND Wizards see Ravnica guilds as the prime guidance for characters/cards of two colors. Guilds were created under political and environmental pressure, that doesn't make them the only way to imagine dual-color characters. W/R characters can be loyal zealots like Boros, but they could also be volatile but good nature figures like Bruse Tarl. (Stop making combat centric W/R cards only!)
A little off-topic, but the original Ravnica was actually quite original in terms of exploring two-color identities. For examle G/W characters are usually the good guys in stories who care about the common people and nature at the same time. But in original Ravnica the Selesnyans were like a cult trying to brainwash people into joining their ranks and become a part of some sort of collective consciousness. This can be seen on cards like Glare of Subdual, Hour of Reckoning or Selesnya Evangel. And to this day, Ghazi-Glare remains the only G/W control deck I've ever heard of. They were of course changed in RTR to generic tree-loving good guys. Also I hate Emmara.
The Orzhov were also quite original in my opinion. I don't know of any B/W characters before Ravnica, but most of the B/W cards gave the vibe of doing something heavy for the greater good. See Gerrard's Verdict or Vindicate. But the Orzhov were like pure white on the outside, promising afterlife and preaching to the community about virtue. But inside, they were just pure black. Instead of giving the afterlife they promised they enslaved the souls who were foolish enough to trust them. So basically there was no greater good, just white masking the black.
Simic were also quite original. As far as I know that was the first time U/G got associated with stretching the laws of nature to a dangerous limit. The Simic were also one of the major bad guys in the story, even though U/G is usually a positive color combination.
Some combinations, like the Dimir, were pretty stereotypical though. But I don't think the problem is trying to stay too close to Ravnica, seeing as the original one was quite experimental. They actually retconned a lot of the guilds in RTR with Selesnya being the prime example. I think Wotc is just too obsessed with sticking to their definition of the color pie lately. The only two positive black characters we got since Toshiro were Yahenni and Sorin, both of which are vampires so they are automatically made black...
Hm, I question that actually. The guilds did change in Return to Ravnica, but they weren't really retconned. They just shifted their own definition around: Dimir and Gruul got less stereotypical (Dimir now at least employing journalists, librarians and other information brokers open to the general public and Gruul being more like the "Guildpact" novel Gruul, misunderstood and shunned by the other guilds instead of purely destructive). Even the positive sides of the Rakdos guild was emphasized (mainly providing for the entertainment industry). Simic and Selesnya both had to change and lose or at least hide (which is strongly emplied) their negative sides since they were (in the eyes of the public) responsible for the slaughters at the end of the "Ravnica" and "Dissension" novels respectively. They just couldn't have continued as guilds otherwise (and the Simic were the only guild who had to do that before RtR). The same goes for the Golgari, who were much more power-hungry in the original block. Some guild combinations, Simic in particular for example never had any real identity before Ravnica anyway. Since it is my favorite color pair I was relieved that they weren't "evilutionists" this time around, while still keeping some creepy characteristics (see Experiment One for example).
Other color pairs on the other hand got more aggressive, including Boros (which were mostly portrayed in a positive light before) and Azorius (making preemptive moves against any kind of perceived law-breakers, which leads to Vraska for example declaring her vengeance against the system). Izzet and Orzhov stayed more or less the same (Izzet mostly just chaotic neutral, Orzhov evil to a certain degree, though also providing necessary services and with a few decent characters like Teysa).
All in all, Return to Ravnica was a pretty good developement for the guilds, showing how much depth there is in the color pie. In my opinion these changes show how much more than the guilds there is to the two-color pairs (see Dragons of Tarkir for example, where the broods don't have much in common with their guild equivalents besides a few superficial characteristics). You are also forgetting Drana, Erebos, Anafenza and Gonthi as positive characters with black color identities. Granted they didn't have as great an impact on the plot, but still.
I hate what RTR did with the guilds for a number of reasons.
First off, the guilds shouldn't have just been reborn with virtually no explanation. Dissension ends with tge Guildpact didsolving and, in Agents of Artifice, there is a celebration of the end of the guilds on Ravnica. So how did the guilds all restore themselves after being gone for some time when the majority of the public were happy to see them gone? They hardly tell us anything.
Aldo, near-extinct species that originally were said to have select members as the last of their kind (Nicv-Mizzet and three hatchlings in the Guildpact novel for dragons, Szadek for psychic, non-Moroii Dimir vampires) were completely retconned and given new cards. Meanwhile, types of creatures that deserved more cards, such as Selesnyan Quietmen or Golgari Teratogens (supposedly including harpies, naga, and many other species along with gorgons, but we never see any of them).
The Azorius were already pretty cliché and stayed that way, albeit as protagonists this time.
The Dimir's new journalism/library management if not for the fact that being known to the public completely undermines the entire point of the guild. Lazav actively trying to destroy tge world "4 the evulz" was absolutely horrible and cringe-inducing. Szadek was so much better as a villain and they still could have used him (he is supposed to be still around as a spirit) but nope.
The Rakdos also stayed pretty cliché to the point of having the same Rakdos re-awakening storyline and having Lyzolda replaced by essentially a clone of herself, which is fine, I guess.
The Gruul did have more natural druids/mystics than last time but were still quite violent and brainless.
The Selesnyans went from some of the most unique, interesting, and terrifying villains in the game to be a bunch of goddamn tree huggers which is the exact same thing we see from GW every block. Original Selesnya was unique both as a villain and as a representation of GW, new Selesnya is the absolute opposite.
Orzhov stayed more or less the same. Their portrayal is actually fine with me.
We are still yet to see the Izzet's use of technology/artifice properly represented on cards. The thing that pisses me off is that in Guildpact (the novel), Niv-Mizzet sees into thoughts of everyone in the Izzet (and maybe others, too, I can't remember) unless they take very specific precautions and this is something that all Izzet mages are very aware of. Yet now Ral thinks that he can hide being a planeswalker from Niv-Mizzet. So either A) there's been a retcon to a central plot point of Guildpact or B) Ral is very stupid and Niv-Mizzet knows the truth but for some strange reason he is yet to do anything with that knowledge.
The Golgari got way too many creatures that were some combination of elf, plant, zombie, skeleton and fungus and not nearly enough of everything else. There are a number of other creatures within the guild that are unrepresented. The guild being more benevolent this time actually makes sense because Jarad is much less of an ******** than his predecessors. Jarad getting a card was a nice touch and one of the few ways in which RTR payed homage to the original block's story instead of defiling it.
The Boros lost their moral high ground but that's actually kind of interesting. It seems that the Selesnya and Boros switched places: the former are unique villains turned cliché protagonists while the latter are the opposite. Tgat being said, the new Boros were not used in the same way as the old Selesnya and the old Boros were a thousand times better than the new Selesnya.
The Simic are the one guild that actually deserved to be completely remodeled as they were completely destroyed at the end of the first block, while the other guilds all had at least some remnants to rebuild from. However, merfolk spontaneously appearing from oceans that "were there the whole time" is bull*****. It's not like Ravnica of all planes needed any more humanoid races, as it already has much more than most worlds. Plus this edged out spots of elves and completely supplanted the vedalken. It was completely unnecessary and unrealistic yet they did it anyway.
So all in all, RTR had a few redeeming qualities but for the most part it just butchered the original story of Ravnica and didn't even really have good reasons for doing so.
But at least I can sleep well knowing that next time they won't be able to screw up the guilds because all the attention will be on the Gatewatch stealing 90% of the focus from the world and characters around them. What great storytelling! No one is going to sick of that!
His point wasn't about mono-colored Planeswalkers, it was about mono-colored Characters.
Which is also why I feel rather annoyed when players AND Wizards see Ravnica guilds as the prime guidance for characters/cards of two colors. Guilds were created under political and environmental pressure, that doesn't make them the only way to imagine dual-color characters. W/R characters can be loyal zealots like Boros, but they could also be volatile but good nature figures like Bruse Tarl. (Stop making combat centric W/R cards only!)
A little off-topic, but the original Ravnica was actually quite original in terms of exploring two-color identities. For examle G/W characters are usually the good guys in stories who care about the common people and nature at the same time. But in original Ravnica the Selesnyans were like a cult trying to brainwash people into joining their ranks and become a part of some sort of collective consciousness. This can be seen on cards like Glare of Subdual, Hour of Reckoning or Selesnya Evangel. And to this day, Ghazi-Glare remains the only G/W control deck I've ever heard of. They were of course changed in RTR to generic tree-loving good guys. Also I hate Emmara.
The Orzhov were also quite original in my opinion. I don't know of any B/W characters before Ravnica, but most of the B/W cards gave the vibe of doing something heavy for the greater good. See Gerrard's Verdict or Vindicate. But the Orzhov were like pure white on the outside, promising afterlife and preaching to the community about virtue. But inside, they were just pure black. Instead of giving the afterlife they promised they enslaved the souls who were foolish enough to trust them. So basically there was no greater good, just white masking the black.
Simic were also quite original. As far as I know that was the first time U/G got associated with stretching the laws of nature to a dangerous limit. The Simic were also one of the major bad guys in the story, even though U/G is usually a positive color combination.
Some combinations, like the Dimir, were pretty stereotypical though. But I don't think the problem is trying to stay too close to Ravnica, seeing as the original one was quite experimental. They actually retconned a lot of the guilds in RTR with Selesnya being the prime example. I think Wotc is just too obsessed with sticking to their definition of the color pie lately. The only two positive black characters we got since Toshiro were Yahenni and Sorin, both of which are vampires so they are automatically made black...
Hm, I question that actually. The guilds did change in Return to Ravnica, but they weren't really retconned. They just shifted their own definition around: Dimir and Gruul got less stereotypical (Dimir now at least employing journalists, librarians and other information brokers open to the general public and Gruul being more like the "Guildpact" novel Gruul, misunderstood and shunned by the other guilds instead of purely destructive). Even the positive sides of the Rakdos guild was emphasized (mainly providing for the entertainment industry). Simic and Selesnya both had to change and lose or at least hide (which is strongly emplied) their negative sides since they were (in the eyes of the public) responsible for the slaughters at the end of the "Ravnica" and "Dissension" novels respectively. They just couldn't have continued as guilds otherwise (and the Simic were the only guild who had to do that before RtR). The same goes for the Golgari, who were much more power-hungry in the original block. Some guild combinations, Simic in particular for example never had any real identity before Ravnica anyway. Since it is my favorite color pair I was relieved that they weren't "evilutionists" this time around, while still keeping some creepy characteristics (see Experiment One for example).
Other color pairs on the other hand got more aggressive, including Boros (which were mostly portrayed in a positive light before) and Azorius (making preemptive moves against any kind of perceived law-breakers, which leads to Vraska for example declaring her vengeance against the system). Izzet and Orzhov stayed more or less the same (Izzet mostly just chaotic neutral, Orzhov evil to a certain degree, though also providing necessary services and with a few decent characters like Teysa).
All in all, Return to Ravnica was a pretty good developement for the guilds, showing how much depth there is in the color pie. In my opinion these changes show how much more than the guilds there is to the two-color pairs (see Dragons of Tarkir for example, where the broods don't have much in common with their guild equivalents besides a few superficial characteristics). You are also forgetting Drana, Erebos, Anafenza and Gonthi as positive characters with black color identities. Granted they didn't have as great an impact on the plot, but still.
I hate what RTR did with the guilds for a number of reasons.
First off, the guilds shouldn't have just been reborn with virtually no explanation. Dissension ends with tge Guildpact didsolving and, in Agents of Artifice, there is a celebration of the end of the guilds on Ravnica. So how did the guilds all restore themselves after being gone for some time when the majority of the public were happy to see them gone? They hardly tell us anything.
Aldo, near-extinct species that originally were said to have select members as the last of their kind (Nicv-Mizzet and three hatchlings in the Guildpact novel for dragons, Szadek for psychic, non-Moroii Dimir vampires) were completely retconned and given new cards. Meanwhile, types of creatures that deserved more cards, such as Selesnyan Quietmen or Golgari Teratogens (supposedly including harpies, naga, and many other species along with gorgons, but we never see any of them).
The Azorius were already pretty cliché and stayed that way, albeit as protagonists this time.
The Dimir's new journalism/library management if not for the fact that being known to the public completely undermines the entire point of the guild. Lazav actively trying to destroy tge world "4 the evulz" was absolutely horrible and cringe-inducing. Szadek was so much better as a villain and they still could have used him (he is supposed to be still around as a spirit) but nope.
The Rakdos also stayed pretty cliché to the point of having the same Rakdos re-awakening storyline and having Lyzolda replaced by essentially a clone of herself, which is fine, I guess.
The Gruul did have more natural druids/mystics than last time but were still quite violent and brainless.
The Selesnyans went from some of the most unique, interesting, and terrifying villains in the game to be a bunch of goddamn tree huggers which is the exact same thing we see from GW every block. Original Selesnya was unique both as a villain and as a representation of GW, new Selesnya is the absolute opposite.
Orzhov stayed more or less the same. Their portrayal is actually fine with me.
We are still yet to see the Izzet's use of technology/artifice properly represented on cards. The thing that pisses me off is that in Guildpact (the novel), Niv-Mizzet sees into thoughts of everyone in the Izzet (and maybe others, too, I can't remember) unless they take very specific precautions and this is something that all Izzet mages are very aware of. Yet now Ral thinks that he can hide being a planeswalker from Niv-Mizzet. So either A) there's been a retcon to a central plot point of Guildpact or B) Ral is very stupid and Niv-Mizzet knows the truth but for some strange reason he is yet to do anything with that knowledge.
The Golgari got way too many creatures that were some combination of elf, plant, zombie, skeleton and fungus and not nearly enough of everything else. There are a number of other creatures within the guild that are unrepresented. The guild being more benevolent this time actually makes sense because Jarad is much less of an ******** than his predecessors. Jarad getting a card was a nice touch and one of the few ways in which RTR payed homage to the original block's story instead of defiling it.
The Boros lost their moral high ground but that's actually kind of interesting. It seems that the Selesnya and Boros switched places: the former are unique villains turned cliché protagonists while the latter are the opposite. Tgat being said, the new Boros were not used in the same way as the old Selesnya and the old Boros were a thousand times better than the new Selesnya.
The Simic are the one guild that actually deserved to be completely remodeled as they were completely destroyed at the end of the first block, while the other guilds all had at least some remnants to rebuild from. However, merfolk spontaneously appearing from oceans that "were there the whole time" is bull*****. It's not like Ravnica of all planes needed any more humanoid races, as it already has much more than most worlds. Plus this edged out spots of elves and completely supplanted the vedalken. It was completely unnecessary and unrealistic yet they did it anyway.
So all in all, RTR had a few redeeming qualities but for the most part it just butchered the original story of Ravnica and didn't even really have good reasons for doing so.
But at least I can sleep well knowing that next time they won't be able to screw up the guilds because all the attention will be on the Gatewatch stealing 90% of the focus from the world and characters around them. What great storytelling! No one is going to sick of that!
If you want to see all of that this way, fine, it's your opinion then. Since I've come to this forum you have been negative towards any direction the narrative has taken (at least I have yet to see any post of yours that was at least halfway positive). That's fine. But obviously your opinion is not the only one. I liked the changes and while I agree that the interrim between Dissension (which by the way DIDN'T end with the dissolution of the guilds) and RtR should have been explained more, real life has always shown that people really like to revolt against an oppressive system only for it to come back in another form later on. It isn't unrealistic that most of the guilds were just too ingrained into Ravnicas society to completely vanish (Izzet are the only ones who know how to handle the infrastructure, Golgari provide the food for the poor, Selesnya is a religious community and Gruul are a bunch of tribes, so the abandonment of these guilds makes no sense anyway etc.). They just lost power for a certain amount of time and regained that power later on. That there were oceans on Ravnica didn't even come out of nowhere, multiple cards in the original Ravnica block hinted at that possibility. We can agree to disagree on the merfolk part of the Simic, I think it's a good addition and Vedalken were mostly left out because of limited space for the guild in the sets it appeared in. The dragons are not the same species as Niv-Mizzet but most likely replicas he made himself (much less intelligent and by the way: also present in the original Ravnica). The vampires... ok, that's really a retcon. But Szadek was so secretive it isn't hard to imagine that he kept them a secret too (made easier by the fact that they can change memories). Oh and what kind of evil plan did he have?
"I want to rule Ravnica by destroying the guildpact". That's it. Really original. I felt that quite a few guilds were MUCH less stereotypical in RtR than they were in the original. But oh well, only my humble opinion.
And just to drive the point home further: I like the Gatewatch. I was sceptical around BFZ and OGT, but Innistrad and its resolution have won me over. I didn't even feel like the focus was on them for much of the time. Yahenni had much more to do with the story of Kaladesh and had more screentime than Gideon and Jace combined (Liliana perhabs too). The writing has gotten better. I look forward to seeing what they do with the characters. That's better than the years of nearly nothing furthering the plot and characters vanishing from the spotlight for decades.
They were indeed original, never said otherwise, but much of the creativity STOPS there, rather than improve, adapt, explore. For example, Wizards regularly does survey to see which mechanics were liked by the players, and depends on how balance they were, more popular ones will more likely see return. Hellbent, Haunt, Forecast, etc, were abandoned due to low popularity even when they represent the image of their respective guilds.
From business point of view it's the right thing to do, but many great ideas were lost when they could've been utilized. Which is why Time Spiral remains one of my favorite block because of how Wizards combine and create new ideas base on the old freely.
Oh, I agree. I just wanted to make a distinction between original Ravnica and RTR. Seeing as how RTR played it safe and boring, while the original Ravnica was quite original. The whole period from Mirrodin to Lorwyn was IMO the most creative in Magic's history.
@ChrisBP7
Maybe retcon isn't the right word, but a lot of the things got changed in RTR in order to play it safe and for marketing reasons. Also I don't think any card in original Ravnica suggested underground oceans (how does this even work)? Of course there were cards with water in them, water is in every MTG set (islands).
How did the changes "play it safe"? Several guilds went from ambigiously good (Boros and arguably Azorius) to ambigiously bad and vice versa. Or would you have liked a Ravnica without the Guilds? Because then it wouldn't really have been Ravnica anymore. The guilds were THE important element of the plane (aside from being a plane-covering city).
The idea of underground oceans stems from other works about an ecumonopolis (like Trantor from Asimovs foundation cycle): Cities are built on previous cities (like Troy in RL) and these layers just get higher and higher over time. After a time a rising ecumonopolis spreads over its oceans as well (normally via technology, but Ravnica seems to have extremely advanced magic, so that was probably used instead. After a while even this part of the city is being built upon again and again. Since Ravnica had 10000 years of such developement the oceans were just forgotten about (it's likely that Niv-Mizzet knew about them, but he probably didn't care much). Oh and underground oceans are probably a thing in real life as well (just in a different way).
They were indeed original, never said otherwise, but much of the creativity STOPS there, rather than improve, adapt, explore. For example, Wizards regularly does survey to see which mechanics were liked by the players, and depends on how balance they were, more popular ones will more likely see return. Hellbent, Haunt, Forecast, etc, were abandoned due to low popularity even when they represent the image of their respective guilds.
From business point of view it's the right thing to do, but many great ideas were lost when they could've been utilized. Which is why Time Spiral remains one of my favorite block because of how Wizards combine and create new ideas base on the old freely.
Oh, I agree. I just wanted to make a distinction between original Ravnica and RTR. Seeing as how RTR played it safe and boring, while the original Ravnica was quite original. The whole period from Mirrodin to Lorwyn was IMO the most creative in Magic's history.
@ChrisBP7
Maybe retcon isn't the right word, but a lot of the things got changed in RTR in order to play it safe and for marketing reasons. Also I don't think any card in original Ravnica suggested underground oceans (how does this even work)? Of course there were cards with water in them, water is in every MTG set (islands).
How did the changes "play it safe"? Several guilds went from ambigiously good (Boros and arguably Azorius) to ambigiously bad and vice versa. Or would you have liked a Ravnica without the Guilds? Because then it wouldn't really have been Ravnica anymore. The guilds were THE important element of the plane (aside from being a plane-covering city).
The idea of underground oceans stems from other works about an ecumonopolis (like Trantor from Asimovs foundation cycle): Cities are built on previous cities (like Troy in RL) and these layers just get higher and higher over time. After a time a rising ecumonopolis spreads over its oceans as well (normally via technology, but Ravnica seems to have extremely advanced magic, so that was probably used instead. After a while even this part of the city is being built upon again and again. Since Ravnica had 10000 years of such developement the oceans were just forgotten about (it's likely that Niv-Mizzet knew about them, but he probably didn't care much). Oh and underground oceans are probably a thing in real life as well (just in a different way).
Wizards wants to play safe in all the "return" set (or should I say, all recent sets?), so they can balance standard as easily as they can, this is not unlike MMORPG companies like Blizzard with their so-call class design and balance, a time/money saving strategy, and also makes it easier for newcomer to join the game(s).
If Wizards really wants creativity to shine, they need to forget about balance, they just have to restrict/ban cards when they become overpowered, then allow themselves and non-tournament goers to go banana on deckbuilding. I believe people who enjoy Magic are fundamentally more appealed by far out ideas than lambs in a fence.
Which is my problem with the Gatewatch as well. Lore for a game like Magic should not be limited by safe plays.
As for Ravnica menfolks, I find the idea awkward from biological point of view. If the ocean has been hidden from the sun for millenniums, how did merfolks manage to maintain their optical senses? They would, at the least, have far large eyes or have other illuminating, and their predatory body parts would become larger for easier hunting, etc, as evolution depicts in real world. And all this time, the merfolks were just ok staying underground? If Kithkin only appears on one plane, why can't one race stay off a plane? Or perhaps they make merfolks just to add cards to a certain card pool and format?
As for Ravnica menfolks, ...If Kithkin only appears on one plane, why can't one race stay off a plane? Or perhaps they make merfolks just to add cards to a certain card pool and format?
During the original Ravnica merfolk creature type had been abandoned outside of corsets since it was hard to fit merfolk (who at this time merfolk had tails only and couldn't live outside of water) on card art/world building since the where always shown in water, which was why we didn't seen them in Mirrodin, Ravnica, Kamigawa and Alara (who used Vedalken and moonfolk) and why in Lorwyn it was exciting to see them return. Then whoever it was thought of "merfolk with legs!" for Zendikar and they have been used for blue characteristic race again with Zendikar and Theros and I'm guessing wit the return world building they decide to add in menfolk.
Due to being a seeded plane Ravnica honestly is the plane where I can believe any and every creature could type lives there.
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As for Ravnica menfolks, ...If Kithkin only appears on one plane, why can't one race stay off a plane? Or perhaps they make merfolks just to add cards to a certain card pool and format?
During the original Ravnica merfolk creature type had been abandoned outside of corsets since it was hard to fit merfolk (who at this time merfolk had tails only and couldn't live outside of water) on card art/world building since the where always shown in water, which was why we didn't seen them in Mirrodin, Ravnica, Kamigawa and Alara (who used Vedalken and moonfolk) and why in Lorwyn it was exciting to see them return. Then whoever it was thought of "merfolk with legs!" for Zendikar and they have been used for blue characteristic race again with Zendikar and Theros and I'm guessing wit the return world building they decide to add in menfolk.
Due to being a seeded plane Ravnica honestly is the plane where I can believe any and every creature could type lives there.
They need more nephilims!
I don't mind merfolks, but they could've thought of a better way to introduce them, like perhaps Simic created them in one of their experiments and is now able to unleash them as a new sentient race, which would be more sounded than an underground sea just suddenly burst and revealed merfolks with no traits a millennium-old subterranean/aquatic life form would have.
They were indeed original, never said otherwise, but much of the creativity STOPS there, rather than improve, adapt, explore. For example, Wizards regularly does survey to see which mechanics were liked by the players, and depends on how balance they were, more popular ones will more likely see return. Hellbent, Haunt, Forecast, etc, were abandoned due to low popularity even when they represent the image of their respective guilds.
From business point of view it's the right thing to do, but many great ideas were lost when they could've been utilized. Which is why Time Spiral remains one of my favorite block because of how Wizards combine and create new ideas base on the old freely.
Oh, I agree. I just wanted to make a distinction between original Ravnica and RTR. Seeing as how RTR played it safe and boring, while the original Ravnica was quite original. The whole period from Mirrodin to Lorwyn was IMO the most creative in Magic's history.
@ChrisBP7
Maybe retcon isn't the right word, but a lot of the things got changed in RTR in order to play it safe and for marketing reasons. Also I don't think any card in original Ravnica suggested underground oceans (how does this even work)? Of course there were cards with water in them, water is in every MTG set (islands).
How did the changes "play it safe"? Several guilds went from ambigiously good (Boros and arguably Azorius) to ambigiously bad and vice versa. Or would you have liked a Ravnica without the Guilds? Because then it wouldn't really have been Ravnica anymore. The guilds were THE important element of the plane (aside from being a plane-covering city).
The idea of underground oceans stems from other works about an ecumonopolis (like Trantor from Asimovs foundation cycle): Cities are built on previous cities (like Troy in RL) and these layers just get higher and higher over time. After a time a rising ecumonopolis spreads over its oceans as well (normally via technology, but Ravnica seems to have extremely advanced magic, so that was probably used instead. After a while even this part of the city is being built upon again and again. Since Ravnica had 10000 years of such developement the oceans were just forgotten about (it's likely that Niv-Mizzet knew about them, but he probably didn't care much). Oh and underground oceans are probably a thing in real life as well (just in a different way).
Wizards wants to play safe in all the "return" set (or should I say, all recent sets?), so they can balance standard as easily as they can, this is not unlike MMORPG companies like Blizzard with their so-call class design and balance, a time/money saving strategy, and also makes it easier for newcomer to join the game(s).
If Wizards really wants creativity to shine, they need to forget about balance, they just have to restrict/ban cards when they become overpowered, then allow themselves and non-tournament goers to go banana on deckbuilding. I believe people who enjoy Magic are fundamentally more appealed by far out ideas than lambs in a fence.
Which is my problem with the Gatewatch as well. Lore for a game like Magic should not be limited by safe plays.
As for Ravnica menfolks, I find the idea awkward from biological point of view. If the ocean has been hidden from the sun for millenniums, how did merfolks manage to maintain their optical senses? They would, at the least, have far large eyes or have other illuminating, and their predatory body parts would become larger for easier hunting, etc, as evolution depicts in real world. And all this time, the merfolks were just ok staying underground? If Kithkin only appears on one plane, why can't one race stay off a plane? Or perhaps they make merfolks just to add cards to a certain card pool and format?
The sad thing is, they tried to do that once with a world, putting flavor before the mechanics in every way... the result was Kamigawa, which is disliked by a vast majority of players (I personally loved the flavor, but hated the mechanics and most of the cards). Also as has been stated previously you have to balance things out if you want to have a long-living game. If it becomes too complex, the entry level is too steep and the number of new players dwindles (something Magic already has a problem with). If it becomes too simple older players leave the game. If the lore dictates the mechanics fully without balancing we get stuff like Kamigawa and when mechanics do the same we get Mirrodin or worse, Urzas Saga (which was really close to killing Magic as a whole).
Since I'm a biologist, that was the only thing that bugged me about the merfolk on Ravnica as well. My solution: They are bioengineers and obviously prepared for their "uprising" to the surface. Most likely they studied Ravnica via the Undercity for quite some time, figured what they needed to be able to return to the surface and returned their eye sight via magical genetic engineering. Alternate theory: The ocean of Ravnica is full of bioluminiscent lifeforms, so that the merfolk didn't lose their eye-sight entirely (they could have made themselves organic or magic light sources too). Interestingly they at least seem to be pretty pale in relation to merfolk of other planes.
In regards to their reason for getting back to the surface: They have a philosophy about the Holdfast (the isolationist movement) and the Upwelling (the expanding one). For the last millenia they obviously put more emphasis on the Holdfast, therefore isolating themselves to their oceans, probably spying on the rest of Ravnica. When the time seemed right for the Upwelling they opened the sinkholes and took over the Combine.
It's nice to see other people realize how RtR completely changed Ravnica for no reason other than marketing. I made lots of post about Ravnica before so I won't start a rant here.
It's nice to see other people realize how RtR completely changed Ravnica for no reason other than marketing. I made lots of post about Ravnica before so I won't start a rant here.
Again, I have to ask, what about the change made Ravnica more marketable? Why (if it is true) is that so horrible? And what would have been the alternative? Since Dissension ended with a new guildpact and multiple guilds in ruins there had to be some change. Since the guilds themselves are what makes Ravnica Ravnica, they couldn't have kept them disbanded (actually I blame Agents of Artifice for even introducing such a short-sighted plot point). The changes are also for the most part logical, some a bit out of left-field. But I really don't see the "marketability" coming into play.
It's nice to see other people realize how RtR completely changed Ravnica for no reason other than marketing. I made lots of post about Ravnica before so I won't start a rant here.
Again, I have to ask, what about the change made Ravnica more marketable? Why (if it is true) is that so horrible? And what would have been the alternative? Since Dissension ended with a new guildpact and multiple guilds in ruins there had to be some change. Since the guilds themselves are what makes Ravnica Ravnica, they couldn't have kept them disbanded (actually I blame Agents of Artifice for even introducing such a short-sighted plot point). The changes are also for the most part logical, some a bit out of left-field. But I really don't see the "marketability" coming into play.
In Ravnica, Then and Now (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/ravnica-then-and-now-2012-08-29) it kinda keeps that in canon with it saying there was a period of time where most of the guilds had fallen apart or had barley any power (with the Gruul and Golgari the only two who seemed "powerful" during that time), that is when I'm guess that was when AoA was set. The guilds returning to full power is still a semi-recent thing, which was why the maze didn't show up until all ten had retuned to a sizable amount of power and "order" and Emmara only recently rejoining the Conclave.
The lynching of many of the Selesnya might have been what turned them more "good" (for now) in the return sets.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Personally, I think the Gatewatch is a cool idea (and maybe even a necessary one for the story), but Wizards is doing such a terrible job writing the story for the Gatewatch that I would be happy to see them all killed off at this point. That would at least add more depth than the feces that Wizards is dumping now. Prior to the 2 set blocks (Gatewatch blocks), the stories were great. They were unique and had several strongly remarkable events per block. Along with allowing characters to grow and problem solve on their own, making the character building infinitely more compelling. Now its just "A couple members of the Gatewatch go here. They walk around and see bad stuff. Then the rest of the Gatewatch decides to come and they fight bad stuff." And that formula could be cool IF IT HAPPENED EVERY ONCE IN A RARE WHILE, but after 3 blocks in a row it's just garbage.
Edit: Not to mention FOUR blocks in row oncer Amonkhet hits.
The concept is interesting but execution is terrible. Nobody is ever truly in danger. And nobody's particularily fleshed out. Gideon's answer to the Eldrazi titans was "MORE SURRAL!" and Chandra's answer was "MORE FIRE!" The problem is that they could be replaced and they wouldn't be missed. They don't have anything particularily interesting about them. The problem with basing characters in the color pie is that they become interchangable to a large extent. Gideon and Serra may be two different people, but they have the same values and ideals.
The more I think about it, the more I feel that having just five colors is far too restrictive.
Then you don't pay much attention to the color pie. There is a lot of versatility in each of the five colors. The issue is that they purposely made the Gatewatch as generic as possible, but that doesn't mean there isn't more depth. It's like basing all Mexican food off of tacos.
The concept is interesting but execution is terrible. Nobody is ever truly in danger. And nobody's particularily fleshed out. Gideon's answer to the Eldrazi titans was "MORE SURRAL!" and Chandra's answer was "MORE FIRE!" The problem is that they could be replaced and they wouldn't be missed. They don't have anything particularily interesting about them. The problem with basing characters in the color pie is that they become interchangable to a large extent. Gideon and Serra may be two different people, but they have the same values and ideals.
The more I think about it, the more I feel that having just five colors is far too restrictive.
Then you don't pay much attention to the color pie. There is a lot of versatility in each of the five colors. The issue is that they purposely made the Gatewatch as generic as possible, but that doesn't mean there isn't more depth. It's like basing all Mexican food off of tacos.
Yeah, the color pie isn't the problem: the Gatewatch being the most generic interpretations of the five colors are. I wouldn't be surprised if the design docs for the Gatewatch's personalities literally just lists their respective colors generic attributes (White = Moral, Order, Uncreative, Peace, Law, etc).
Come to think of it, the "uncreative" part would certainly explain Gideon's actions in BfZ (MOAR SURRAL!!1)...
The concept is interesting but execution is terrible. Nobody is ever truly in danger. And nobody's particularily fleshed out. Gideon's answer to the Eldrazi titans was "MORE SURRAL!" and Chandra's answer was "MORE FIRE!" The problem is that they could be replaced and they wouldn't be missed. They don't have anything particularily interesting about them. The problem with basing characters in the color pie is that they become interchangable to a large extent. Gideon and Serra may be two different people, but they have the same values and ideals.
The more I think about it, the more I feel that having just five colors is far too restrictive.
Then you don't pay much attention to the color pie. There is a lot of versatility in each of the five colors. The issue is that they purposely made the Gatewatch as generic as possible, but that doesn't mean there isn't more depth. It's like basing all Mexican food off of tacos.
Yeah, the color pie isn't the problem: the Gatewatch being the most generic interpretations of the five colors are. I wouldn't be surprised if the design docs for the Gatewatch's personalities literally just lists their respective colors generic attributes (White = Moral, Order, Uncreative, Peace, Law, etc).
Come to think of it, the "uncreative" part would certainly explain Gideon's actions in BfZ (MOAR SURRAL!!1)...
Well, I've felt constricted by the color pie for far longer than just the Gatewatch' appearance. We've seen the effects of the colors already. Legendary creatures are always rehashes of old themes, no matter how new they are. Imagine we had a new color.
WUBRG(P).
That would open the door for so many new combinations. And why is the color pie so holy?
We don't need a new color because it doesn't add anything to the mix. This is because the color pie is literally all encompassing, any limitation you perceive is on your end. I'm not sure how you get this misconception that Legendary creatures are always rehashes, unless you are making a reference to the fact that everything has been done so nothing is original but that isn't possible to solve so I'm not sure the point. In Kaladesh alone we got several Legends that don't fit within the typical mold, sure there have been several characters like them(but far from exactly) in the past, but when you produce so many characters its impossible not to.
The Kraul bugdude from C16 comes to mind. He is, yet again, something with sacrifice.
Or Kambal. Yet again WB has something to do with lifegain/lifeloss. They really need to shake things up.
It's getting annoying.
So you go back two years ago to find a BG legend that cares about sacrifice when you could go back one year and find two that don't. You look at the last set to find a WB that drains life, when again you could have gone to last year and found one that was all about reanimation.
So it seems exactly like I said, the problem isn't the color pie or even its execution. The problem is on your end, you look at the most 'popular' focus of a color or color pair and declare the color pie as too restricting regardless of how many other representations are available.
The Kraul bugdude from C16 comes to mind. He is, yet again, something with sacrifice.
Or Kambal. Yet again WB has something to do with lifegain/lifeloss. They really need to shake things up.
It's getting annoying.
That's a game mechanic, though. This is about how the Gatewatch are implemented in the story.
The Kraul bugdude from C16 comes to mind. He is, yet again, something with sacrifice.
Or Kambal. Yet again WB has something to do with lifegain/lifeloss. They really need to shake things up.
It's getting annoying.
So you go back two years ago to find a BG legend that cares about sacrifice when you could go back one year and find two that don't. You look at the last set to find a WB that drains life, when again you could have gone to last year and found one that was all about reanimation.
So it seems exactly like I said, the problem isn't the color pie or even its execution. The problem is on your end, you look at the most 'popular' focus of a color or color pair and declare the color pie as too restricting regardless of how many other representations are available.
Those are two legends I had lying in front of me. That doesn't mean I can't find more.
New ground desperately needs to be broken.
There are certain mechanics that are most prominent in a color pair, like lifegain/loss in WB to give a mechanical identity, which therefore have more cards made using them. That doesn't mean that they are the only mechanics used at all. WB has branched out to mass and targeted destruction and exiling of permanents, letting opponents discard, reanimation of permanents etc. There might be more legends using the life aspect because that is the main identity, but there are more than enough alternatives available. The color pie really isn't the problem... now I don't really agree with the Gatewatch being "generic" per se either, but that's another point.
The Kraul bugdude from C16 comes to mind. He is, yet again, something with sacrifice.
Or Kambal. Yet again WB has something to do with lifegain/lifeloss. They really need to shake things up.
It's getting annoying.
So you go back two years ago to find a BG legend that cares about sacrifice when you could go back one year and find two that don't. You look at the last set to find a WB that drains life, when again you could have gone to last year and found one that was all about reanimation.
So it seems exactly like I said, the problem isn't the color pie or even its execution. The problem is on your end, you look at the most 'popular' focus of a color or color pair and declare the color pie as too restricting regardless of how many other representations are available.
Those are two legends I had lying in front of me. That doesn't mean I can't find more.
New ground desperately needs to be broken.
BG
We just got Gitrog Monster. An interesting blend of Lands and Grave effects.
Ikra Shidiqi focuses on Toughness with no sacrifice mechanics.
Pharika and Reyhan both broke new ground as well.
WB
We got Daxos, an Enchantment-focused Legendary.
I think you're asking a little too much. Yes, some color combos could use a little more variation (especiallyRW...), but there's also a limit to how creative you can get with new abilities. Most of the time, in one way or another, they have to be rooted in something the color combo "usually does" or the cards they're on won't feel like it belongs into those colors.
Also, saying a commander is lazy/uncreative just because a similar ability/effect already exists on a card somewhere is kind of silly. Having access to a certain ability/effect through your commander is completely different from having a card somewhere in your deck that does (roughly) the same thing. Of course it's nice if a commander has an interesting or unique ability. But declaring the Gitrog Monster as uncreative because it does sacrifice and graveyard stuff is kind of like declaring a cake as uncreative because it's sweet. A Gitrog Monster deck plays different than a Savra deck - that's what matters in the end.
This has veered pretty significantly off track. Move discussion to a new topic about legends if you like, but bring it back to Gatewatch discussion here.
1: Ugin on his own didn't want to beat the Eldrazi, and all but confirms to Jace that he could
2: Bolas on his on beat Ugin
3: Jacestus League are currently 2/3 on the Eldrazi.
Jacestus League < Bolas = ?
If they win cause they have the power to beat bolas with magic then this has worse consistency than the Bleach manga.
There we go, now its consistent with facts rather than opinions.
We don't know if Ugin could or could not have defeated the Eldrazi. He wasn't interested. Him letting worlds die could easily have been him studying, and he didn't have the capability, at the time, to utilize all the various kinds of magic he needed to seal them. Ugin doesn't strike me as terribly concerned with individual worlds, more an overall balance of the Multiverse.
We don't know how a one on one fight would've gone between Ugin and Bolas because neither attempted to land any kind of blow before Ugin used his magic to call the dragons to attack Bolas. The fact that Bolas prepped for that via Yasova is a testament to the forethought put into his fight. In addition to the fact that Bolas fought Ugin on what is arguably his home turf, which has been shown to be a significant advantage to Pre-mending walkers.
The Gatewatch didn't stop Emrakul. Emrakul stopped Emrakul. The Gatewatch just provided the path for her. They also wouldn't have been able to even do that without Tamiyo.
I don't think the Gatewatch are going to win. But I also don't think things are as cut and dry as you make them out to be.
1. From ZENDIKAR RESURGENT. This is as "I could have easily have destroyed them, but insignificant worms such as yourself shouldn't have been able to." as you can get without being verbatim.
2. Ugin couldn't win on his own so he summoned his brood, which Bolas turned against him. Remove the third parties and Bolas is still ahead.
3. You can claim all you want that the Gatewatch beat Emrakul, but it doesn't make it true it is only more whining about not liking subtleties. They are 2 for 3 against the Eldrazi.
So once again my statements are based in facts as presented while your complaints are based on opinion. You can actually debate these points but if you just keep using opinion that is directly contradicted by fact you don't really stand a chance.
Hm, I question that actually. The guilds did change in Return to Ravnica, but they weren't really retconned. They just shifted their own definition around: Dimir and Gruul got less stereotypical (Dimir now at least employing journalists, librarians and other information brokers open to the general public and Gruul being more like the "Guildpact" novel Gruul, misunderstood and shunned by the other guilds instead of purely destructive). Even the positive sides of the Rakdos guild was emphasized (mainly providing for the entertainment industry). Simic and Selesnya both had to change and lose or at least hide (which is strongly emplied) their negative sides since they were (in the eyes of the public) responsible for the slaughters at the end of the "Ravnica" and "Dissension" novels respectively. They just couldn't have continued as guilds otherwise (and the Simic were the only guild who had to do that before RtR). The same goes for the Golgari, who were much more power-hungry in the original block. Some guild combinations, Simic in particular for example never had any real identity before Ravnica anyway. Since it is my favorite color pair I was relieved that they weren't "evilutionists" this time around, while still keeping some creepy characteristics (see Experiment One for example).
Other color pairs on the other hand got more aggressive, including Boros (which were mostly portrayed in a positive light before) and Azorius (making preemptive moves against any kind of perceived law-breakers, which leads to Vraska for example declaring her vengeance against the system). Izzet and Orzhov stayed more or less the same (Izzet mostly just chaotic neutral, Orzhov evil to a certain degree, though also providing necessary services and with a few decent characters like Teysa).
All in all, Return to Ravnica was a pretty good developement for the guilds, showing how much depth there is in the color pie. In my opinion these changes show how much more than the guilds there is to the two-color pairs (see Dragons of Tarkir for example, where the broods don't have much in common with their guild equivalents besides a few superficial characteristics). You are also forgetting Drana, Erebos, Anafenza and Gonthi as positive characters with black color identities. Granted they didn't have as great an impact on the plot, but still.
They were indeed original, never said otherwise, but much of the creativity STOPS there, rather than improve, adapt, explore. For example, Wizards regularly does survey to see which mechanics were liked by the players, and depends on how balance they were, more popular ones will more likely see return. Hellbent, Haunt, Forecast, etc, were abandoned due to low popularity even when they represent the image of their respective guilds.
From business point of view it's the right thing to do, but many great ideas were lost when they could've been utilized. Which is why Time Spiral remains one of my favorite block because of how Wizards combine and create new ideas base on the old freely.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
I hate what RTR did with the guilds for a number of reasons.
First off, the guilds shouldn't have just been reborn with virtually no explanation. Dissension ends with tge Guildpact didsolving and, in Agents of Artifice, there is a celebration of the end of the guilds on Ravnica. So how did the guilds all restore themselves after being gone for some time when the majority of the public were happy to see them gone? They hardly tell us anything.
Aldo, near-extinct species that originally were said to have select members as the last of their kind (Nicv-Mizzet and three hatchlings in the Guildpact novel for dragons, Szadek for psychic, non-Moroii Dimir vampires) were completely retconned and given new cards. Meanwhile, types of creatures that deserved more cards, such as Selesnyan Quietmen or Golgari Teratogens (supposedly including harpies, naga, and many other species along with gorgons, but we never see any of them).
The Azorius were already pretty cliché and stayed that way, albeit as protagonists this time.
The Dimir's new journalism/library management if not for the fact that being known to the public completely undermines the entire point of the guild. Lazav actively trying to destroy tge world "4 the evulz" was absolutely horrible and cringe-inducing. Szadek was so much better as a villain and they still could have used him (he is supposed to be still around as a spirit) but nope.
The Rakdos also stayed pretty cliché to the point of having the same Rakdos re-awakening storyline and having Lyzolda replaced by essentially a clone of herself, which is fine, I guess.
The Gruul did have more natural druids/mystics than last time but were still quite violent and brainless.
The Selesnyans went from some of the most unique, interesting, and terrifying villains in the game to be a bunch of goddamn tree huggers which is the exact same thing we see from GW every block. Original Selesnya was unique both as a villain and as a representation of GW, new Selesnya is the absolute opposite.
Orzhov stayed more or less the same. Their portrayal is actually fine with me.
We are still yet to see the Izzet's use of technology/artifice properly represented on cards. The thing that pisses me off is that in Guildpact (the novel), Niv-Mizzet sees into thoughts of everyone in the Izzet (and maybe others, too, I can't remember) unless they take very specific precautions and this is something that all Izzet mages are very aware of. Yet now Ral thinks that he can hide being a planeswalker from Niv-Mizzet. So either A) there's been a retcon to a central plot point of Guildpact or B) Ral is very stupid and Niv-Mizzet knows the truth but for some strange reason he is yet to do anything with that knowledge.
The Golgari got way too many creatures that were some combination of elf, plant, zombie, skeleton and fungus and not nearly enough of everything else. There are a number of other creatures within the guild that are unrepresented. The guild being more benevolent this time actually makes sense because Jarad is much less of an ******** than his predecessors. Jarad getting a card was a nice touch and one of the few ways in which RTR payed homage to the original block's story instead of defiling it.
The Boros lost their moral high ground but that's actually kind of interesting. It seems that the Selesnya and Boros switched places: the former are unique villains turned cliché protagonists while the latter are the opposite. Tgat being said, the new Boros were not used in the same way as the old Selesnya and the old Boros were a thousand times better than the new Selesnya.
The Simic are the one guild that actually deserved to be completely remodeled as they were completely destroyed at the end of the first block, while the other guilds all had at least some remnants to rebuild from. However, merfolk spontaneously appearing from oceans that "were there the whole time" is bull*****. It's not like Ravnica of all planes needed any more humanoid races, as it already has much more than most worlds. Plus this edged out spots of elves and completely supplanted the vedalken. It was completely unnecessary and unrealistic yet they did it anyway.
So all in all, RTR had a few redeeming qualities but for the most part it just butchered the original story of Ravnica and didn't even really have good reasons for doing so.
But at least I can sleep well knowing that next time they won't be able to screw up the guilds because all the attention will be on the Gatewatch stealing 90% of the focus from the world and characters around them. What great storytelling! No one is going to sick of that!
If you want to see all of that this way, fine, it's your opinion then. Since I've come to this forum you have been negative towards any direction the narrative has taken (at least I have yet to see any post of yours that was at least halfway positive). That's fine. But obviously your opinion is not the only one. I liked the changes and while I agree that the interrim between Dissension (which by the way DIDN'T end with the dissolution of the guilds) and RtR should have been explained more, real life has always shown that people really like to revolt against an oppressive system only for it to come back in another form later on. It isn't unrealistic that most of the guilds were just too ingrained into Ravnicas society to completely vanish (Izzet are the only ones who know how to handle the infrastructure, Golgari provide the food for the poor, Selesnya is a religious community and Gruul are a bunch of tribes, so the abandonment of these guilds makes no sense anyway etc.). They just lost power for a certain amount of time and regained that power later on. That there were oceans on Ravnica didn't even come out of nowhere, multiple cards in the original Ravnica block hinted at that possibility. We can agree to disagree on the merfolk part of the Simic, I think it's a good addition and Vedalken were mostly left out because of limited space for the guild in the sets it appeared in. The dragons are not the same species as Niv-Mizzet but most likely replicas he made himself (much less intelligent and by the way: also present in the original Ravnica). The vampires... ok, that's really a retcon. But Szadek was so secretive it isn't hard to imagine that he kept them a secret too (made easier by the fact that they can change memories). Oh and what kind of evil plan did he have?
"I want to rule Ravnica by destroying the guildpact". That's it. Really original. I felt that quite a few guilds were MUCH less stereotypical in RtR than they were in the original. But oh well, only my humble opinion.
And just to drive the point home further: I like the Gatewatch. I was sceptical around BFZ and OGT, but Innistrad and its resolution have won me over. I didn't even feel like the focus was on them for much of the time. Yahenni had much more to do with the story of Kaladesh and had more screentime than Gideon and Jace combined (Liliana perhabs too). The writing has gotten better. I look forward to seeing what they do with the characters. That's better than the years of nearly nothing furthering the plot and characters vanishing from the spotlight for decades.
How did the changes "play it safe"? Several guilds went from ambigiously good (Boros and arguably Azorius) to ambigiously bad and vice versa. Or would you have liked a Ravnica without the Guilds? Because then it wouldn't really have been Ravnica anymore. The guilds were THE important element of the plane (aside from being a plane-covering city).
The idea of underground oceans stems from other works about an ecumonopolis (like Trantor from Asimovs foundation cycle): Cities are built on previous cities (like Troy in RL) and these layers just get higher and higher over time. After a time a rising ecumonopolis spreads over its oceans as well (normally via technology, but Ravnica seems to have extremely advanced magic, so that was probably used instead. After a while even this part of the city is being built upon again and again. Since Ravnica had 10000 years of such developement the oceans were just forgotten about (it's likely that Niv-Mizzet knew about them, but he probably didn't care much). Oh and underground oceans are probably a thing in real life as well (just in a different way).
Wizards wants to play safe in all the "return" set (or should I say, all recent sets?), so they can balance standard as easily as they can, this is not unlike MMORPG companies like Blizzard with their so-call class design and balance, a time/money saving strategy, and also makes it easier for newcomer to join the game(s).
If Wizards really wants creativity to shine, they need to forget about balance, they just have to restrict/ban cards when they become overpowered, then allow themselves and non-tournament goers to go banana on deckbuilding. I believe people who enjoy Magic are fundamentally more appealed by far out ideas than lambs in a fence.
Which is my problem with the Gatewatch as well. Lore for a game like Magic should not be limited by safe plays.
As for Ravnica menfolks, I find the idea awkward from biological point of view. If the ocean has been hidden from the sun for millenniums, how did merfolks manage to maintain their optical senses? They would, at the least, have far large eyes or have other illuminating, and their predatory body parts would become larger for easier hunting, etc, as evolution depicts in real world. And all this time, the merfolks were just ok staying underground? If Kithkin only appears on one plane, why can't one race stay off a plane? Or perhaps they make merfolks just to add cards to a certain card pool and format?
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
During the original Ravnica merfolk creature type had been abandoned outside of corsets since it was hard to fit merfolk (who at this time merfolk had tails only and couldn't live outside of water) on card art/world building since the where always shown in water, which was why we didn't seen them in Mirrodin, Ravnica, Kamigawa and Alara (who used Vedalken and moonfolk) and why in Lorwyn it was exciting to see them return. Then whoever it was thought of "merfolk with legs!" for Zendikar and they have been used for blue characteristic race again with Zendikar and Theros and I'm guessing wit the return world building they decide to add in menfolk.
Due to being a seeded plane Ravnica honestly is the plane where I can believe any and every creature could type lives there.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
They need more nephilims!
I don't mind merfolks, but they could've thought of a better way to introduce them, like perhaps Simic created them in one of their experiments and is now able to unleash them as a new sentient race, which would be more sounded than an underground sea just suddenly burst and revealed merfolks with no traits a millennium-old subterranean/aquatic life form would have.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
The sad thing is, they tried to do that once with a world, putting flavor before the mechanics in every way... the result was Kamigawa, which is disliked by a vast majority of players (I personally loved the flavor, but hated the mechanics and most of the cards). Also as has been stated previously you have to balance things out if you want to have a long-living game. If it becomes too complex, the entry level is too steep and the number of new players dwindles (something Magic already has a problem with). If it becomes too simple older players leave the game. If the lore dictates the mechanics fully without balancing we get stuff like Kamigawa and when mechanics do the same we get Mirrodin or worse, Urzas Saga (which was really close to killing Magic as a whole).
Since I'm a biologist, that was the only thing that bugged me about the merfolk on Ravnica as well. My solution: They are bioengineers and obviously prepared for their "uprising" to the surface. Most likely they studied Ravnica via the Undercity for quite some time, figured what they needed to be able to return to the surface and returned their eye sight via magical genetic engineering. Alternate theory: The ocean of Ravnica is full of bioluminiscent lifeforms, so that the merfolk didn't lose their eye-sight entirely (they could have made themselves organic or magic light sources too). Interestingly they at least seem to be pretty pale in relation to merfolk of other planes.
In regards to their reason for getting back to the surface: They have a philosophy about the Holdfast (the isolationist movement) and the Upwelling (the expanding one). For the last millenia they obviously put more emphasis on the Holdfast, therefore isolating themselves to their oceans, probably spying on the rest of Ravnica. When the time seemed right for the Upwelling they opened the sinkholes and took over the Combine.
Again, I have to ask, what about the change made Ravnica more marketable? Why (if it is true) is that so horrible? And what would have been the alternative? Since Dissension ended with a new guildpact and multiple guilds in ruins there had to be some change. Since the guilds themselves are what makes Ravnica Ravnica, they couldn't have kept them disbanded (actually I blame Agents of Artifice for even introducing such a short-sighted plot point). The changes are also for the most part logical, some a bit out of left-field. But I really don't see the "marketability" coming into play.
In Ravnica, Then and Now (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/ravnica-then-and-now-2012-08-29) it kinda keeps that in canon with it saying there was a period of time where most of the guilds had fallen apart or had barley any power (with the Gruul and Golgari the only two who seemed "powerful" during that time), that is when I'm guess that was when AoA was set. The guilds returning to full power is still a semi-recent thing, which was why the maze didn't show up until all ten had retuned to a sizable amount of power and "order" and Emmara only recently rejoining the Conclave.
The lynching of many of the Selesnya might have been what turned them more "good" (for now) in the return sets.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Edit: Not to mention FOUR blocks in row oncer Amonkhet hits.
Then you don't pay much attention to the color pie. There is a lot of versatility in each of the five colors. The issue is that they purposely made the Gatewatch as generic as possible, but that doesn't mean there isn't more depth. It's like basing all Mexican food off of tacos.
Yeah, the color pie isn't the problem: the Gatewatch being the most generic interpretations of the five colors are. I wouldn't be surprised if the design docs for the Gatewatch's personalities literally just lists their respective colors generic attributes (White = Moral, Order, Uncreative, Peace, Law, etc).
Come to think of it, the "uncreative" part would certainly explain Gideon's actions in BfZ (MOAR SURRAL!!1)...
So it seems exactly like I said, the problem isn't the color pie or even its execution. The problem is on your end, you look at the most 'popular' focus of a color or color pair and declare the color pie as too restricting regardless of how many other representations are available.
That's a game mechanic, though. This is about how the Gatewatch are implemented in the story.
There are certain mechanics that are most prominent in a color pair, like lifegain/loss in WB to give a mechanical identity, which therefore have more cards made using them. That doesn't mean that they are the only mechanics used at all. WB has branched out to mass and targeted destruction and exiling of permanents, letting opponents discard, reanimation of permanents etc. There might be more legends using the life aspect because that is the main identity, but there are more than enough alternatives available. The color pie really isn't the problem... now I don't really agree with the Gatewatch being "generic" per se either, but that's another point.
BG
We just got Gitrog Monster. An interesting blend of Lands and Grave effects.
Ikra Shidiqi focuses on Toughness with no sacrifice mechanics.
Pharika and Reyhan both broke new ground as well.
WB
We got Daxos, an Enchantment-focused Legendary.
Also, saying a commander is lazy/uncreative just because a similar ability/effect already exists on a card somewhere is kind of silly. Having access to a certain ability/effect through your commander is completely different from having a card somewhere in your deck that does (roughly) the same thing. Of course it's nice if a commander has an interesting or unique ability. But declaring the Gitrog Monster as uncreative because it does sacrifice and graveyard stuff is kind of like declaring a cake as uncreative because it's sweet. A Gitrog Monster deck plays different than a Savra deck - that's what matters in the end.
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