Like I said, it's neat that in regards to the boggarts G tends to be more evil than B. Tarkir had a chance when the Mardu dropped W and when the Sultai dropped the G, but instead the former are the more evil now and the latter remain exactly the same.
Pretty much this. No one is arguing that evil in rakdos is not the norm, myself included. The inclination is there, yes. Aggression in red, self-indulgence and "power at all costs" mentality in black. Combining those will always predispose those characters to hedonistic, anarchic behavior. But a predisposition does not 100% of the time translate to reality. Exceptions may be unlikely, but not impossible. I'm lorwyn illiterate though since I quit during that time, so I didn't know boggarts were not evil. Then again, an "auntie" already sounds like they deviated from normal B/R characters.
Wort, Boggart Auntie is the first good character in that has gotten a card, although there is no real backstory to Wort so make of that what you will. Also, yes, Aunties do deviate from the norm of that dual color. They are literally like a parental figure to the other boggarts.
Boggart warrens are led by nominal leaders called Aunties. The Auntie is usually the oldest boggart in the warren, and is usually female (some are male, yet are still called "Auntie"). The Auntie knows many tales, like fables, that they tell to educate their warren, pass on crucial boggart teachings, and adjudicate disputes. The most famous Auntie fables are about Auntie Grub, a folk hero to the boggarts and probably a real ancestor. Auntie Grub's tales are particularly helpful for informing young boggarts about racial enemies, dangerous predators, poisonous plants and fungus, and the like.
Pretty much this. No one is arguing that evil in rakdos is not the norm, myself included. The inclination is there, yes. Aggression in red, self-indulgence and "power at all costs" mentality in black. Combining those will always predispose those characters to hedonistic, anarchic behavior. But a predisposition does not 100% of the time translate to reality. Exceptions may be unlikely, but not impossible. I'm lorwyn illiterate though since I quit during that time, so I didn't know boggarts were not evil. Then again, an "auntie" already sounds like they deviated from normal B/R characters.
Wort, Boggart Auntie is the first good character in that has gotten a card, although there is no real backstory to Wort so make of that what you will. Also, yes, Aunties do deviate from the norm of that dual color. They are literally like a parental figure to the other boggarts.
Boggart warrens are led by nominal leaders called Aunties. The Auntie is usually the oldest boggart in the warren, and is usually female (some are male, yet are still called "Auntie"). The Auntie knows many tales, like fables, that they tell to educate their warren, pass on crucial boggart teachings, and adjudicate disputes. The most famous Auntie fables are about Auntie Grub, a folk hero to the boggarts and probably a real ancestor. Auntie Grub's tales are particularly helpful for informing young boggarts about racial enemies, dangerous predators, poisonous plants and fungus, and the like.
It's also funny that, for all that being the colors of "opposition to norms and society", even the Boggarts had laws. Well, A law: no object or sensation shall be hoarded by an individual boggart upon pain of exile.
That new recipe-pie that you stole from the Kithkin? Gotta share it, or you're booted out of the warren.
On the BR argument, I would imagine Lili would go red if she branched into another color, not blue. Liliana is consistently shown to be doing things for the Gatewatch out of her (confusing to her, and uncomfortable) love for Jace and "big sister" instincts towards Chandra. It fits for mono-black still because she is still mostly planning on using Chandra as a loyal firebomb and helps Jace because he makes her feel good, but if she keeps making choices that go against her own interests for Jace or Chandra a good strong Red streak wouldn't be a stretch.
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Like I said, it's neat that in regards to the boggarts G tends to be more evil than B. Tarkir had a chance when the Mardu dropped W and when the Sultai dropped the G, but instead the former are the more evil now and the latter remain exactly the same.
Well, not exactly. The Sultai dropped their caste system, which was one of Green's biggest contributions. Now, anyone can progress up the ranks (right up to the point where Silumgar deems you a threat and eats you, of course). There are naga, human, and dragon at all levels of power. It still absolutely sucks as much as the old Sultai, but there's more room to grow.
As for the Mardu...well, yeah. That one kinda makes sense though. The White part of Mardu was literally defined as the Edicts of Ilagra, their laws and code of honor. Take that away and you have an angry nomadic horde.
It's worth noting that the biggest reason that the Kolaghan Clan are the way they are is because Kolaghan's only competition became dragons. When things were in balance, Kolaghan was, arguably, the most benevolent of the Dragonlords. At that point, she only killed the Mardu because they were attacking her people first. Dromoka attacked for "Heresy," Ojutai for Pride, Silumgar for Greed, and Atarka for Hunger.
But once there was no opposing force to keep her in check? Well...that's when things turned south.
Judging the entire color pairing by what we've seen as opposed to our understanding of what the colors are would mean that WU is always dogmatic, authoritative, and obsessed with insularity in either law or community, to the point of absolute destruction in a way that is, by most of our standards, evil. But I don't think anyone would argue that the default state of WU is evil the same way the argument is happening about BR.
It'd kinda be like saying "You like Magic the Gathering, therefore you identify with and/or like the character of Jace Beleren."
Judging the entire color pairing by what we've seen as opposed to our understanding of what the colors are would mean that WU is always dogmatic, authoritative, and obsessed with insularity in either law or community, to the point of absolute destruction in a way that is, by most of our standards, evil. But I don't think anyone would argue that the default state of WU is evil the same way the argument is happening about BR.
Well WU as a color combination is a lot about the law and making sure they are made well. They dont act selfish and the WU kind of law should benefit the people, not the individual, they are rational, not helping just to help, if you do something against the law, you will get punished, respectively (which might be a death sentence, if that is what the law got down to decide that the individual is too much of a threat or liability to keep around).
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Theres nothing really "evil" about WU in general, you might not like that kind of system, especially if you are a little bit selfish or seek an advantage or "play the system" for your own. Thats what WU tries to avoid after all.
As a red person you might give emotions too much credit and this might get you in trouble and you will get in conflict with the law.
A green part might get in troubles if they favour the "old" ways too much and law is made against that.
So any other color might get in trouble in a WU world. A blue person will not, they know what they are allowed and act according to it, you can learn a lot, in the bounds you are given (and if you wish to leave, you cannot do it in the world the law counts in, like leave a state, or get in another country or what else to do stuff you are otherwise not allowed, knowing that will still let you all the freedom you want, so its all about "know your restrictions and work with them").
A very white person might at points see themself unable to follow the law, if "honor" permits for example. This has a touch of selfishness, but its also a something that bounds you to a community which shares your idea of honor. So a white person might try to work the system, to do more good than the system is allowing (and they ignore the "reason" why the law is how it is, as they might lack the insight that blue would have).
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That said, a WU world is as good and balanced as you possible could be. But people might not enjoy the total order, you might have different views in specific points, and that alone will get you in conflict with the law at some point for sure (which a reasonable punishment would suffice, being "unreasonable" in punishment, would be against the blue aspect, as the law is ment to serve the people and do so while serving all aspects of it without severly hurting another).
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So if a WU world still has some form of black aligned politicans as rulers, they might corrupt the system to a point that the law becomes unbalanced, punishment too harsh or restrictions too extreme.
It all comes down to how good the law is, how much the law itself is shaped in a WU form (and for the world we have so far, thats never really a WU kind of law they have, as it has too much influence of other colors to really work as intended). Even Ravnica has to struggle with all the guilds and has to bend itself to the guildpact , so law cannot be made in a "pure" WU spirit (which is actually a bad thing, but in the end, some people dont want a "perfectly" fair and fully elaborate world, they "want" to have something they can abuse, or at least think they can abuse it).
Well WU as a color combination is a lot about the law and making sure they are made well. They dont act selfish and the WU kind of law should benefit the people, not the individual, they are rational, not helping just to help, if you do something against the law, you will get punished, respectively (which might be a death sentence, if that is what the law got down to decide that the individual is too much of a threat or liability to keep around).
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Theres nothing really "evil" about WU in general, you might not like that kind of system, especially if you are a little bit selfish or seek an advantage or "play the system" for your own. Thats what WU tries to avoid after all.
As a red person you might give emotions too much credit and this might get you in trouble and you will get in conflict with the law.
A green part might get in troubles if they favour the "old" ways too much and law is made against that.
So any other color might get in trouble in a WU world. A blue person will not, they know what they are allowed and act according to it, you can learn a lot, in the bounds you are given (and if you wish to leave, you cannot do it in the world the law counts in, like leave a state, or get in another country or what else to do stuff you are otherwise not allowed, knowing that will still let you all the freedom you want, so its all about "know your restrictions and work with them").
A very white person might at points see themself unable to follow the law, if "honor" permits for example. This has a touch of selfishness, but its also a something that bounds you to a community which shares your idea of honor. So a white person might try to work the system, to do more good than the system is allowing (and they ignore the "reason" why the law is how it is, as they might lack the insight that blue would have).
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That said, a WU world is as good and balanced as you possible could be. But people might not enjoy the total order, you might have different views in specific points, and that alone will get you in conflict with the law at some point for sure (which a reasonable punishment would suffice, being "unreasonable" in punishment, would be against the blue aspect, as the law is ment to serve the people and do so while serving all aspects of it without severly hurting another).
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So if a WU world still has some form of black aligned politicans as rulers, they might corrupt the system to a point that the law becomes unbalanced, punishment too harsh or restrictions too extreme.
It all comes down to how good the law is, how much the law itself is shaped in a WU form (and for the world we have so far, thats never really a WU kind of law they have, as it has too much influence of other colors to really work as intended). Even Ravnica has to struggle with all the guilds and has to bend itself to the guildpact , so law cannot be made in a "pure" WU spirit (which is actually a bad thing, but in the end, some people dont want a "perfectly" fair and fully elaborate world, they "want" to have something they can abuse, or at least think they can abuse it).
On Ravnica, Azor I was the one who proposed the idea of the Guildpact in the first place. A coming together of powers that would likely fight for eternity and destroy themselves in the process otherwise. So, a point for positive WU there. Then one decamillenia later, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV conspires with the full body of the Azorius and Szadek of the Dimir to break the Guildpact into tiny little bits and recreate the city in the image of the Azorius. They were, with no uncertainty, the villains of Book 3 in the original Ravnica cycle, and there are arguments that they established the entire plot. And even without that, Azorius ruling is shown to be pretty ineffective and too granular for the good of anyone involved.
Come Return to Ravnica, it turns out that Azor had a puzzle in place to repair things should the Guildpact fall apart. And if it wasn't solved through teamwork (which is an odd choice for something that would arguably happen due to a complete loss of trust) then everyone gets destroyed, regardless of Guild Affiliation. And the ineffectiveness still hasn't changed that much. Lavinia is aligned with the ideal of the Azorius, but she breaks several laws and rules in the process of doing what's right for the people, which is a pretty good sign that things aren't better. Not to mention the flavor text on Supreme Verdict.
So let's look at another group focused in White and Blue: Shadowmoor's Kithkin. They aren't about law, per se. They're about community. Community to the point of extensive paranoia, xenophobia, and absolute destruction, even of their own property and selves, in the name of "protection." The embodiment of Shadowmoor's WU philosophy is pretty well exemplified in its Avatar. The Godhead of Awe. My belief, creature, etc. is superior to yours, and if you do not think so, I will make it so. Everything on Shadowmoor (except the elves) is bad, of course, but this is example number two of WU being bad for just about everybody, including WU.
Finally, let's look at the Ojutai. The Ojutai have a caste system, with humans being treated as subspecies, and all form of thought grounded in the idea that dragons are superior, and the best a human can do is to reincarnate as a dragon one day and achieve enlightenment then, with Ojutai himself sitting at the top of the wisdom pyramid, no equals. There are quite literally laws in place that prevent humans from reacting to a dragon of the Ojutai eating another human.
WU, as we've seen it, is less about "fair and balanced laws for everyone" and much more about "Fair and balanced laws for the people aligned with me." And these are not "WU with a splash of B" these are explicitly WU organizations and individuals.
But the thing is, you aren't wrong. That's the point I'm trying to make. WU as we've seen it is not any sort of beneficial for anyone other than WU. But that doesn't mean it can't be. And the same applies for BR. We've only seen BR's bad side.
WU, as we've seen it, is less about "fair and balanced laws for everyone" and much more about "Fair and balanced laws for the people aligned with me." And these are not "WU with a splash of B" these are explicitly WU organizations and individuals.
But the thing is, you aren't wrong. That's the point I'm trying to make. WU as we've seen it is not any sort of beneficial for anyone other than WU. But that doesn't mean it can't be. And the same applies for BR. We've only seen BR's bad side.
Yes all the WU parties so far arent really WU, they always suffer from a black influence that wield the person in power.
I mean, if you cannot accept your own laws, you cannot be reliable WU leader. If you act selfish and stand "above" your own laws, or make the laws to specificly benefit you, they arent done in the WU aspect. Thinking your laws through and making backup plans is certainly blue, and you have to be willing to sacrifice people if that actually follows an actual rational greater good (like sacrifing a village to save a country, rough decision, but its rational, while red might just rescue the village out of emotion and later regret doing so when the country is burning).
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Story wise WU kind of suffers as they struggle to build a society based on law and the "hope" that people accept it and dont act in too extreme ways (as a society wont work if you have super good laws, but nobody actually living by them).
So as it stands i say that the WU examples we have suffer from a black aligned influence in leadership that tilts the power into destroying itself, as theres not enough consensus to accept the WU kind of laws, even if they might be superior and rationally the logically correct choices, but in the end, people will value other people around them higher, or have a fundamentally different view than you have (and if these views contradict, you cannot make a perfect choice, you either have to choose one or go with a middle ground, and the middle ground of thousand of different views is pretty terrible aswell, as you serve nobody with so much compromises that your actual goal cannot be archived ; actually a very common problem in politics, and probably a very good reason why a "perfect" WU world can only work if all the people are also very similiar, individuals will sooner or later topple the system and if they dont bow to your law, its uprising and if you cannot defend your system, it will fall apart).
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A WU planeswalker also has these attributes that they work with the law, at least try to. But at points you have to overstep and bend the laws (which you can as blue, you are smart enough to find the holes) , and at some point a bit selfishness takes over, as a very powerful individual might not bow to the weaker part if some important questions are at stake (so the white side might triumph over the rational thinking, its like "i did it in good intentions" but its still a terrible choice to make).
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BR on the other hand.
I cannot really see a world in which BR is actually good in any conceivable way.
Even if pure sadistic destruction , or acting selfishness and emotional might "somehow" result in helping out, its still a extremly terrible way of solving anything (and highly volatile, as the BR can and will , just as easily destroy and cripple what you are left with, as they will at any point just act to help themselves and profit themselves, its a eternity to struggle for power and everyone will deceive and cheat anyone at any point and just stab you in the back as they feel like it at that point in time, or you say something that makes them angry, and they lunge at you).
I mean, just imagine Rakdos or Grixis doing something "positive" , for who ? Even if they have randomly good intentions, they will just wreck anything apart at some later point (so its hardly a use for anyone, other than the absolute most powerful among them, which are not challenged).
BR planeswalkers we have are "mad" and completly crazy in that color combination. They are absolutely nothing you can work with in any reasonable way.
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For example in Kaladesh, Chandra "could" have gone mad and let emotion take over into hatred and anger. If she would go on a rampage to kill the consule and just uterly destroy everything around her, regardless of Renegades, that would give her strong red side the touch of black that dripes emotion into utter chaos.
She would still be somewhat a "hero" in the Kaladesh story, if she could just fly around and destroy the consul and obliterate Tezzeret , but that would all come at a pretty steep cost of acting completly out of control.
Yes all the WU parties so far arent really WU, they always suffer from a black influence that wield the person in power.
That's a pretty flimsy excuse. Only the Consulate can claim to have a degree of Black influence; the Azorius, kithkin and Ojutai are all within just White/Blue and they are, respectively, an oppressive government, a xenophobic clan and a cult.
White/Blue, if anything, has been portrayed as very evil. In theory it can be rational, progressive and fair; in practice, it has been oppressive, dogmatic and unfeeling.
There are of course good White/Blue characters like Ephara, Lavinia, Tamiyo, Narset and Venser (though he was still a drug-addict prick), but like an hypothetical good Black/Red planeswalker they're acting independently.
Yes all the WU parties so far aren't really WU, they always suffer from a black influence that wield the person in power.
I mean, if you cannot accept your own laws, you cannot be reliable WU leader. If you act selfish and stand "above" your own laws, or make the laws to specificly benefit you, they arent done in the WU aspect. Thinking your laws through and making backup plans is certainly blue, and you have to be willing to sacrifice people if that actually follows an actual rational greater good (like sacrifing a village to save a country, rough decision, but its rational, while red might just rescue the village out of emotion and later regret doing so when the country is burning).
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Story wise WU kind of suffers as they struggle to build a society based on law and the "hope" that people accept it and dont act in too extreme ways (as a society wont work if you have super good laws, but nobody actually living by them).
So as it stands i say that the WU examples we have suffer from a black aligned influence in leadership that tilts the power into destroying itself, as theres not enough consensus to accept the WU kind of laws, even if they might be superior and rationally the logically correct choices, but in the end, people will value other people around them higher, or have a fundamentally different view than you have (and if these views contradict, you cannot make a perfect choice, you either have to choose one or go with a middle ground, and the middle ground of thousand of different views is pretty terrible aswell, as you serve nobody with so much compromises that your actual goal cannot be archived ; actually a very common problem in politics, and probably a very good reason why a "perfect" WU world can only work if all the people are also very similiar, individuals will sooner or later topple the system and if they dont bow to your law, its uprising and if you cannot defend your system, it will fall apart).
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A WU planeswalker also has these attributes that they work with the law, at least try to. But at points you have to overstep and bend the laws (which you can as blue, you are smart enough to find the holes) , and at some point a bit selfishness takes over, as a very powerful individual might not bow to the weaker part if some important questions are at stake (so the white side might triumph over the rational thinking, its like "i did it in good intentions" but its still a terrible choice to make).
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BR on the other hand.
I cannot really see a world in which BR is actually good in any conceivable way.
Even if pure sadistic destruction , or acting selfishness and emotional might "somehow" result in helping out, its still a extremly terrible way of solving anything (and highly volatile, as the BR can and will , just as easily destroy and cripple what you are left with, as they will at any point just act to help themselves and profit themselves, its a eternity to struggle for power and everyone will deceive and cheat anyone at any point and just stab you in the back as they feel like it at that point in time, or you say something that makes them angry, and they lunge at you).
I mean, just imagine Rakdos or Grixis doing something "positive" , for who ? Even if they have randomly good intentions, they will just wreck anything apart at some later point (so its hardly a use for anyone, other than the absolute most powerful among them, which are not challenged).
BR planeswalkers we have are "mad" and completly crazy in that color combination. They are absolutely nothing you can work with in any reasonable way.
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For example in Kaladesh, Chandra "could" have gone mad and let emotion take over into hatred and anger. If she would go on a rampage to kill the consule and just uterly destroy everything around her, regardless of Renegades, that would give her strong red side the touch of black that dripes emotion into utter chaos.
She would still be somewhat a "hero" in the Kaladesh story, if she could just fly around and destroy the consul and obliterate Tezzeret , but that would all come at a pretty steep cost of acting completly out of control.
I don't know that you can say "They were WU, but also B." Because they kind of explicitly weren't. None of the organizations mentioned had any character that was Black Aligned. The Kithkin didn't really have a leader in Shadowmoor, they were almost literally a Hive-Mind, and it was unpleasant for everyone not a Kithkin and also in many cases, unpleasant for the Kithkin. Augustin wasn't concerned with he himself being leader, or the Azorius being above everyone else. He was concerned with everyone following the laws as they "should" be. Ojutai mellowed out from his original "cleanse all knowledge but mine" philosophy, but even then, it was WU because he was doing what he thought was best for everyone. It was the Jeskai fault that their everyone didn't include Dragons, and as a result, it should be punished.
But even if you could, that's kind of the point. WU organizations and groups don't have non-evil representation in Magic, and yet, because White is there, people feel comfortable saying that it isn't all evil. BR has an advantage of even getting a little bit of positive representation in the Boggarts of Lorwyn, but because it has Black, people will be comfortable saying that there's no redeeming value in the color pair.
As for BR doing something positive? BR is the color of absolute freedom, and expression of the self. Absolute freedom, in and of itself, absolutely has problems, much in the same way that absolute order does.
I don't have that many problems imagining a BR person doing something positive, even long-term. Intentionally, a BR person will be more than happy to help if you're a friend, or if you can benefit them in some way. Or even just if the mood strikes them to be nice. Unintentionally, they can inspire revolution, or take the risks that lead to leaps and bounds in technology, magic, finance, or what have you. I don't know about other cultures, but a lot of American Folk Heroes are pretty BR.
Remember, doing whatever you want does not mean all you want to do is kill, or hurt.
Any color combination can be the absolute best, or absolute worst of the parts that make it up.
And as for the BR Planeswalker thing? We've had two. Sarkhan was crazy, I'll give you that hands down, but Daretti's motives are a bit more complex. Using that as an example is like saying "All BG characters are evil" or "UG Planeswalkers aren't Human." As of right now, it's true but the sample size is horrendously small. The WU Planeswalkers you mentioned earlier included a Grouchy Teleporting Drug Addict who disregarded the past to try and make a Planar Boat; a Human who rigidly followed the laws until she realized that the laws were written by fallible, mortal hands, and then dedicated her life to seeking knowledge; and a Vedalken who was happy to work with the big bad of the block because he literally couldn't comprehend why anyone found the man to be grotesque. They kind of vary on the morality scale and the "following the law" scale.
I don't know that you can say "They were WU, but also B." Because they kind of explicitly weren't. None of the organizations mentioned had any character that was Black Aligned.
Yes that the point i tried to make. The cards are just WU, but the kind they behave would totally justify making them black too.
As a leader of a community has inherently more power than the non-leaders, its always questionable if your motive is just to gain that power and because of that lead the community, as it will inherently grant you the power to potentially act in your self interest.
A community that is a hive-mind is also what i said, everyone being equal, no leader, everyone is equal, everyone is rationally included in the system, nobody acts out of being selfish, as they are in the end 1 being, an entity (which by then, you could argue that a "hive" is acting selfish, while it contains many entities, but these are just the sum of that 1 "hive"-being, kinda like looking at a human an arguing your body is just a sum of cells, a hive is just a bigger version of that).
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The color combinations in Tarkir kinda take some aspects of the colors but depress others, so its fairly difficult to truly say what aspects they represent and what not (in some way all of them are white, as all of them have at least some rules they follow, and all of them make up a community in the respective clans, but being white is reduced to specific laws and honor in Tarkir).
Dragons are all in some way black, as they are clearly "superior" to the humans and thats one aspect of black, to see yourself as something "clearly" better and by that alone you gain special rights (or for just animalistic thinking, you have a Food chain and something is up there and anything else is just food).
Augustin wasn't concerned with he himself being leader, or the Azorius being above everyone else. He was concerned with everyone following the laws as they
"should" be.
Yes here i also said that WU only really works "pure" if the people actually form some community that accepts the law. As soon as you have a different party that is completly different , you cannot enforce "your" idea of law on them, they dont have that law. So what do you do ? You either accept it, and just ignore them (certainly an option) , or you enforce your law on them, which again is BLACK , it means, your idea of law is clearly superior and they have to follow it, because "you say so".
However, in Ravnica, Azorious was just WU , but it clearly has black influence, which isnt shown on the cards, but the motives arent pure WU , as theres the conflict with the other guilds, that they are not ignoring (mostly as they try to go a more or less diplomatic victory approach, thats what a guildpact is about in the end, like a peace treatment, and a backup plan if that doesnt work out to save yourself).
But politcal victory certainly means that you will sooner or later at least try to accumulate the other guilds into your community (if you choose not to ignore them).
A world in which WU law would be the actual law for everyone and enforced on everyone, it would certainly work.
The ultimate form of it, might actually be a Hive-Mind like structure, in which people overall agree with each other or at least go with the option the majority thinks is best for everyone.
As long as theres conflict, WU will always somehow get some black influence in what its doing (as it easily drifts into the politics area).
But even if you could, that's kind of the point. WU organizations and groups don't have non-evil representation in Magic, and yet, because White is there, people feel comfortable saying that it isn't all evil.
For whats "finally" evil, you have to define what that is in your fictive world.
I mean killing people, certainly "evil", you need a damn good reason to do it, and if that reason is justified, depends a lot on that worlds laws and views.
Killing animals might be completly fine for one person, while its extremly "evil" for others. Stealing might be fine in some peoples eyes, as long as they steal from people that also stole it (nice chain of stealing that becomes).
If a problem becomes extremly huge, like a Eldrazi invasion, people will probably work together, but that doesnt really make them "white" , as it comes down to pure survival against enemies you cannot possible defeat yourself (so even black will side with others to save themself, but the cards are still just black, as it would be silly for the game to colorshift anything just for that, doesnt really work so you dont do it).
BR has an advantage of even getting a little bit of positive representation in the Boggarts of Lorwyn, but because it has Black, people will be comfortable saying that there's no redeeming value in the color pair.
Its for sure very very short-term if a truly BR aligned being helps a different course to succeed.
You would much more easily expect that the BR being would just uter Chaos and self-destruction over helping people.
Some weak BR aligned creatures might be slaves and helpers to more powerful beings, but even they will kick the boss out of the window, the moment they see a chance to gain more power themself.
So if BR helps others, you cannot ever turn your back on that "ally", theres simply no trust at all in BR, theres just "do whatever you feel like at any point".
As for BR doing something positive? BR is the color of absolute freedom, and expression of the self. Absolute freedom, in and of itself, absolutely has problems, much in the same way that absolute order does.
I don't have that many problems imagining a BR person doing something positive, even long-term. Intentionally, a BR person will be more than happy to help if you're a friend, or if you can benefit them in some way. Or even just if the mood strikes them to be nice. Unintentionally, they can inspire revolution, or take the risks that lead to leaps and bounds in technology, magic, finance, or what have you. I don't know about other cultures, but a lot of American Folk Heroes are pretty BR.
Well "help" might be a too strong word for a BR being. It will "use" you to archive its own goal , which is fundamentally based on gaining more power in some way or another (if you dont care for power you are just red, not black).
Killing people and ignoring any law or order, anything is possible if BR wants to archive a goal, they just do it and side with anyone to to archive it, but only so long, till they are the last enemy standing. At some point, each BR being is a lot about self-destruction, as they care only for themself and nothing else and switch alliances at any point and attack allies at any point.
Remember, doing whatever you want does not mean all you want to do is kill, or hurt.
Any color combination can be the absolute best, or absolute worst of the parts that make it up.
And as for the BR Planeswalker thing? We've had two. Sarkhan was crazy, I'll give you that hands down, but Daretti's motives are a bit more complex.
I dont know enough about daretti to make any educated guesses, but in the end, BR is about acting out of emotions, and black is about gaining power for yourself. These two combined are pretty much the most Non-hero you can make, its kind of the text-book crazy villain that just wants to see the world burn (if thats his enjoyment, so be it).
Using that as an example is like saying "All BG characters are evil" or "UG Planeswalkers aren't Human." As of right now, it's true but the sample size is horrendously small. The WU Planeswalkers you mentioned earlier included a Grouchy Teleporting Drug Addict who disregarded the past to try and make a Planar Boat; a Human who rigidly followed the laws until she realized that the laws were written by fallible, mortal hands, and then dedicated her life to seeking knowledge; and a Vedalken who was happy to work with the big bad of the block because he literally couldn't comprehend why anyone found the man to be grotesque. They kind of vary on the morality scale and the "following the law" scale.
Yea, WU is certainly not the definition of "good" , theres probably no color that is perfectly good, as being good depends so much on viewpoints and even if you think you are doing everyone good, someone will certainly dislike you still ; simply said, its impossible to make anyone happy (someone will be somehow less happy than others).
But in general, WU produces a pretty good idea of "good" that is represented in our real world too. Think about what you do, plan it, do it for the "greater good" and do not act selfish, the law should reflect that.
Black aligned color combinations will always have the "selfish" part that is quite prominent (even in WB, its primarly projected on some kind of church, that will look like a community to the outside, but is quite corrupted in the inside). And being selfish is a prominent factor for villains (not necessarly, but acting selfish has a pretty good chance that it ends in something that will certainly not help others).
I don't know that you can say "They were WU, but also B." Because they kind of explicitly weren't. None of the organizations mentioned had any character that was Black Aligned.
Yes that the point i tried to make. The cards are just WU, but the kind they behave would totally justify making them black too.
As a leader of a community has inherently more power than the non-leaders, its always questionable if your motive is just to gain that power and because of that lead the community, as it will inherently grant you the power to potentially act in your self interest.
A community that is a hive-mind is also what i said, everyone being equal, no leader, everyone is equal, everyone is rationally included in the system, nobody acts out of being selfish, as they are in the end 1 being, an entity (which by then, you could argue that a "hive" is acting selfish, while it contains many entities, but these are just the sum of that 1 "hive"-being, kinda like looking at a human an arguing your body is just a sum of cells, a hive is just a bigger version of that).
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The color combinations in Tarkir kinda take some aspects of the colors but depress others, so its fairly difficult to truly say what aspects they represent and what not (in some way all of them are white, as all of them have at least some rules they follow, and all of them make up a community in the respective clans, but being white is reduced to specific laws and honor in Tarkir).
Dragons are all in some way black, as they are clearly "superior" to the humans and thats one aspect of black, to see yourself as something "clearly" better and by that alone you gain special rights (or for just animalistic thinking, you have a Food chain and something is up there and anything else is just food).
Augustin wasn't concerned with he himself being leader, or the Azorius being above everyone else. He was concerned with everyone following the laws as they
"should" be.
Yes here i also said that WU only really works "pure" if the people actually form some community that accepts the law. As soon as you have a different party that is completly different , you cannot enforce "your" idea of law on them, they dont have that law. So what do you do ? You either accept it, and just ignore them (certainly an option) , or you enforce your law on them, which again is BLACK , it means, your idea of law is clearly superior and they have to follow it, because "you say so".
However, in Ravnica, Azorious was just WU , but it clearly has black influence, which isnt shown on the cards, but the motives arent pure WU , as theres the conflict with the other guilds, that they are not ignoring (mostly as they try to go a more or less diplomatic victory approach, thats what a guildpact is about in the end, like a peace treatment, and a backup plan if that doesnt work out to save yourself).
But politcal victory certainly means that you will sooner or later at least try to accumulate the other guilds into your community (if you choose not to ignore them).
A world in which WU law would be the actual law for everyone and enforced on everyone, it would certainly work.
The ultimate form of it, might actually be a Hive-Mind like structure, in which people overall agree with each other or at least go with the option the majority thinks is best for everyone.
As long as theres conflict, WU will always somehow get some black influence in what its doing (as it easily drifts into the politics area).
But even if you could, that's kind of the point. WU organizations and groups don't have non-evil representation in Magic, and yet, because White is there, people feel comfortable saying that it isn't all evil.
For whats "finally" evil, you have to define what that is in your fictive world.
I mean killing people, certainly "evil", you need a damn good reason to do it, and if that reason is justified, depends a lot on that worlds laws and views.
Killing animals might be completly fine for one person, while its extremly "evil" for others. Stealing might be fine in some peoples eyes, as long as they steal from people that also stole it (nice chain of stealing that becomes).
If a problem becomes extremly huge, like a Eldrazi invasion, people will probably work together, but that doesnt really make them "white" , as it comes down to pure survival against enemies you cannot possible defeat yourself (so even black will side with others to save themself, but the cards are still just black, as it would be silly for the game to colorshift anything just for that, doesnt really work so you dont do it).
BR has an advantage of even getting a little bit of positive representation in the Boggarts of Lorwyn, but because it has Black, people will be comfortable saying that there's no redeeming value in the color pair.
Its for sure very very short-term if a truly BR aligned being helps a different course to succeed.
You would much more easily expect that the BR being would just uter Chaos and self-destruction over helping people.
Some weak BR aligned creatures might be slaves and helpers to more powerful beings, but even they will kick the boss out of the window, the moment they see a chance to gain more power themself.
So if BR helps others, you cannot ever turn your back on that "ally", theres simply no trust at all in BR, theres just "do whatever you feel like at any point".
As for BR doing something positive? BR is the color of absolute freedom, and expression of the self. Absolute freedom, in and of itself, absolutely has problems, much in the same way that absolute order does.
I don't have that many problems imagining a BR person doing something positive, even long-term. Intentionally, a BR person will be more than happy to help if you're a friend, or if you can benefit them in some way. Or even just if the mood strikes them to be nice. Unintentionally, they can inspire revolution, or take the risks that lead to leaps and bounds in technology, magic, finance, or what have you. I don't know about other cultures, but a lot of American Folk Heroes are pretty BR.
Well "help" might be a too strong word for a BR being. It will "use" you to archive its own goal , which is fundamentally based on gaining more power in some way or another (if you dont care for power you are just red, not black).
Killing people and ignoring any law or order, anything is possible if BR wants to archive a goal, they just do it and side with anyone to to archive it, but only so long, till they are the last enemy standing. At some point, each BR being is a lot about self-destruction, as they care only for themself and nothing else and switch alliances at any point and attack allies at any point.
Remember, doing whatever you want does not mean all you want to do is kill, or hurt.
Any color combination can be the absolute best, or absolute worst of the parts that make it up.
And as for the BR Planeswalker thing? We've had two. Sarkhan was crazy, I'll give you that hands down, but Daretti's motives are a bit more complex.
I dont know enough about daretti to make any educated guesses, but in the end, BR is about acting out of emotions, and black is about gaining power for yourself. These two combined are pretty much the most Non-hero you can make, its kind of the text-book crazy villain that just wants to see the world burn (if thats his enjoyment, so be it).
Using that as an example is like saying "All BG characters are evil" or "UG Planeswalkers aren't Human." As of right now, it's true but the sample size is horrendously small. The WU Planeswalkers you mentioned earlier included a Grouchy Teleporting Drug Addict who disregarded the past to try and make a Planar Boat; a Human who rigidly followed the laws until she realized that the laws were written by fallible, mortal hands, and then dedicated her life to seeking knowledge; and a Vedalken who was happy to work with the big bad of the block because he literally couldn't comprehend why anyone found the man to be grotesque. They kind of vary on the morality scale and the "following the law" scale.
Yea, WU is certainly not the definition of "good" , theres probably no color that is perfectly good, as being good depends so much on viewpoints and even if you think you are doing everyone good, someone will certainly dislike you still ; simply said, its impossible to make anyone happy (someone will be somehow less happy than others).
But in general, WU produces a pretty good idea of "good" that is represented in our real world too. Think about what you do, plan it, do it for the "greater good" and do not act selfish, the law should reflect that.
Black aligned color combinations will always have the "selfish" part that is quite prominent (even in WB, its primarly projected on some kind of church, that will look like a community to the outside, but is quite corrupted in the inside). And being selfish is a prominent factor for villains (not necessarly, but acting selfish has a pretty good chance that it ends in something that will certainly not help others).
Philosophically, white is very comfortable saying that it's better than someone and forcing their opinion on others. White is the one that decides moral and immoral after all.
But, I'm seeing that this is probably something we just...won't ever agree on due to a fundamentally different view on the color pie. It's been a pleasure.
Philosophically, white is very comfortable saying that it's better than someone and forcing their opinion on others. White is the one that decides moral and immoral after all.
But, I'm seeing that this is probably something we just...won't ever agree on due to a fundamentally different view on the color pie. It's been a pleasure.
That is mostly because color pie debate is like alignment debate. Both are owned by Wizards and both involve people getting into arguments over the matters.
Prior to Origins, Gatewatch members were not like who they are today. Perhaps because putting characters in a group requires each of them to be both an asset and a drawback, therefore Wizards modified their storyline and personality to ensure each of them could mingle better. As result, Gatewatch members become a little too "predictable", to the point I'm positive Wizards had checked TVTropes.org for reference.
I prefer a group of characters become Super Sentai naturally out of who they are, rather than changing who they are just to form a Sentai. Nine Titans was fun because they were united for a single purpose, some members disliked each other and many of them were pretty much amoral jerks, but if you separate them they each still got personality mightier than the whole pre-Ajani Gatewatch, each able to hold books of stories alone. God, I miss Bo Levar.
My issue isn't really a Gatewatch issue so much as a Planeswalker issue. I wish their adventures through the Mutliverse had more to do with learning and growing from different worlds. Thats the idea, right? Of so many different planes they can traverse? If only each of them were a unique place of awe and wondrous magic to behold and lessons to uncover. To stop and appreciate an entire world with its own metaphysics and its own diverse magic.
Instead Planeswalkers arrive already masters of everything there, always serve the biggest, best roles and make everyone else seem incapable. If someone is, like Jenrik, they're killed so Jace (who is my favorite PW, mind you) can serve the investigator role instead. Planeswalkers always overshadow the rest of the cast, which I could dismiss if they weren't doing it on someone else's turf every time, having just arrived there? Worlds are literally their playgrounds and they just toy with massive feats such as taking down the Eldrazi or turning Zendikar inside out to do it as if these were simple measures and not astounding acts. It's just a shame to me not to see more exploration and awe for such worlds, or these characters actively searching and learning how to do things they just happen to just do without any real work.
For example, Gideon realizing he was no longer on Theros. Can you imagine being blinked randomly into a desert, only to realize you're in a dune on Saturn's moon Titan which you thought was Arizona for a moment? Would you be blasé about THAT?!
I think it's pretty dumb that the current Planeswalkers try so hard to hide the fact that they are Planeswalkers on every plane they go to. In fact, a lot of the planes don't even know about the existence of other planes, let alone people who move between them. It's like WotC wants to treat Planeswalkers like X-Men, they have godlike powers but remain the victims wherever they go somehow. It almost might be a compelling way to introduce new planeswalkers if they got some kind of Spark-Radar, and then when it inevitably falls into the hands of some villainous type, we can find out how well unignited planeswalkers work as humanoid batteries for evil machinations.
I think it's pretty dumb that the current Planeswalkers try so hard to hide the fact that they are Planeswalkers on every plane they go to. In fact, a lot of the planes don't even know about the existence of other planes, let alone people who move between them. It's like WotC wants to treat Planeswalkers like X-Men, they have godlike powers but remain the victims wherever they go somehow. It almost might be a compelling way to introduce new planeswalkers if they got some kind of Spark-Radar, and then when it inevitably falls into the hands of some villainous type, we can find out how well unignited planeswalkers work as humanoid batteries for evil machinations.
Well,.. there is something that exists which could serve a similar function. It's not a "spark radar" and doesn't isolate unignited sparks or anything (in fact it wouldn't even be able to detect unignited sparks, since it detects the act of planeswalking itself), but Project Lightning Bug does allow one to track planeswalkers, which could be used as a tool for capturing them. Again, not the same, but could serve a similar narrative purpose.
As far as the idea of the Gatewatch, I like it. I had been hoping it would happen ever since I got into the lore as a matter of fact. But the execution has proven problematic, especially in the beginning back in BFZ. Shadows and Kaladesh were good steps in the right direction but there is still room for improvement. I think it would be better if we had one or two members ''starring'' in their own blocks and gathering the band for big bosses. I guess though it does make sense to gather your allies before you go to war...
About the members of the Gatewatch I am sort of content. Not exactly enthusiastic but I like them for the most part. Ajani joining is a huge plus for me as he's awesome.
I think the problem is that the format of a story per week is holding the idea back however. Its hard to really give these characters depth when there are so many plot points and only so many stories. Plus the fact that they are monocolored makes it even harder to give them any meaningful characterization imo.
As far as the idea of the Gatewatch, I like it. I had been hoping it would happen ever since I got into the lore as a matter of fact. But the execution has proven problematic, especially in the beginning back in BFZ. Shadows and Kaladesh were good steps in the right direction but there is still room for improvement. I think it would be better if we had one or two members ''starring'' in their own blocks and gathering the band for big bosses. I guess though it does make sense to gather your allies before you go to war...
About the members of the Gatewatch I am sort of content. Not exactly enthusiastic but I like them for the most part. Ajani joining is a huge plus for me as he's awesome.
I think the problem is that the format of a story per week is holding the idea back however. Its hard to really give these characters depth when there are so many plot points and only so many stories. Plus the fact that they are monocolored makes it even harder to give them any meaningful characterization imo.
I don't think monocolor is an issue, consider each color has more than one facet to work on. For example, Garruk and Nissa are both green, one is ferocious and the other tree-huging. Red can be as impulsive as Chandra or as thoughtful and loving as Feldon. Blue you got Jace the nerd and Baral the verbally manipulative. I believe their single-mindedness at times is there to ensure the Sentai components hold, i.e., everyone is different therefore a plus and a minus to the team.
But I agree, story is a major part of why Gatewatch hasn't been more functional, one reason being that they have yet to meet their match. Eldrazi rawrs, Tezz schemes, but neither has truly caused Gatewatch to run away in defeat, which makes it less convincing as an organization so young. If a RPG game allows a new band of heroes to triumph over cosmic terror so early, so easily, the game would bask in bad light, Gatewatch is no different.
As far as the idea of the Gatewatch, I like it. I had been hoping it would happen ever since I got into the lore as a matter of fact. But the execution has proven problematic, especially in the beginning back in BFZ. Shadows and Kaladesh were good steps in the right direction but there is still room for improvement. I think it would be better if we had one or two members ''starring'' in their own blocks and gathering the band for big bosses. I guess though it does make sense to gather your allies before you go to war...
About the members of the Gatewatch I am sort of content. Not exactly enthusiastic but I like them for the most part. Ajani joining is a huge plus for me as he's awesome.
I think the problem is that the format of a story per week is holding the idea back however. Its hard to really give these characters depth when there are so many plot points and only so many stories. Plus the fact that they are monocolored makes it even harder to give them any meaningful characterization imo.
Baral the verbally manipulative.
Baral isn't a planeswalker.
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His point wasn't about mono-colored Planeswalkers, it was about mono-colored Characters.
Yes, even within the same color, characters can vary, which is why we got both Liliana and Yahenni in black.
Which is also why I feel rather annoyed when players AND Wizards see Ravnica guilds as the prime guidance for characters/cards of two colors. Guilds were created under political and environmental pressure, that doesn't make them the only way to imagine dual-color characters. W/R characters can be loyal zealots like Boros, but they could also be volatile but good nature figures like Bruse Tarl. (Stop making combat centric W/R cards only!)
But I agree, story is a major part of why Gatewatch hasn't been more functional, one reason being that they have yet to meet their match. Eldrazi rawrs, Tezz schemes, but neither has truly caused Gatewatch to run away in defeat, which makes it less convincing as an organization so young. If a RPG game allows a new band of heroes to triumph over cosmic terror so early, so easily, the game would bask in bad light, Gatewatch is no different.
The whole problem was the defeat of the Eldrazi and the whole "We must protect the multiverse so let's make the Oath". It was way too idealistic from the start. Perhaps I'm a bit too jaded, but I think using despair instead of idealism for resolve is a lot better for storytelling. Imagine the Gatewatch was formed only after all that Emrakul had put them through, suddenly you get the anti-nihilist vibe from them and it feels so much more "better" why they choose to be heroic despite realizing the insignificance of existence itself. Even better if Ulamog & Kozilek managed to escape back then, but they weren't convinced to band together until Emrakul united them through sheer terror. That would have allowed a lot more development between characters, making the formation of the Gatewatch more realistic (rather than a band of people who just felt guilty over releasing the Elrazi Lock happen to arrive on the same time on the plane...), then the additional growth we got from Kaladesh would have blossomed better, not like the way we're more or less disregarding these Eldrazi-slayers now to some degree.
Reading how they killed something gods couldn't is like reading a children's novel on how a teenager defeats Chronos where Zeus could not.....
I liken it to having Batman's origin-story pitting him against Darkseid - it's incredibly difficult to make the hero winning, much less winning a non-phyrric victory, look plausible because the villain has been built up as being in an entirely different league. The initial buildup was that Neowalkers are not the borderline omnipotent godlike beings that the Oldwalkers were, and when Nahiri and Sorin couldn't kill the Titans (let's presume that they at least tried Before Ugin suggested the sealing, otherwise the story makes even less sense)... the Gatewatch are ants, and the Eldrazi Titans are boots.
My biggest problem with the Gatewatch is that they're being written as comicbook characters (again, Jacetus League), but the wins they got early on were too big - what's the point in pitting Spider-man against Kingpin, a human crimelord, when he's already fought Thanos the Mad Titan and beaten him clean? Any fear that they could lose has already been thoroughly squashed.
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Wort, Boggart Auntie is the first good character in that has gotten a card, although there is no real backstory to Wort so make of that what you will. Also, yes, Aunties do deviate from the norm of that dual color. They are literally like a parental figure to the other boggarts.
It's also funny that, for all that being the colors of "opposition to norms and society", even the Boggarts had laws. Well, A law: no object or sensation shall be hoarded by an individual boggart upon pain of exile.
That new recipe-pie that you stole from the Kithkin? Gotta share it, or you're booted out of the warren.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
Well, not exactly. The Sultai dropped their caste system, which was one of Green's biggest contributions. Now, anyone can progress up the ranks (right up to the point where Silumgar deems you a threat and eats you, of course). There are naga, human, and dragon at all levels of power. It still absolutely sucks as much as the old Sultai, but there's more room to grow.
As for the Mardu...well, yeah. That one kinda makes sense though. The White part of Mardu was literally defined as the Edicts of Ilagra, their laws and code of honor. Take that away and you have an angry nomadic horde.
It's worth noting that the biggest reason that the Kolaghan Clan are the way they are is because Kolaghan's only competition became dragons. When things were in balance, Kolaghan was, arguably, the most benevolent of the Dragonlords. At that point, she only killed the Mardu because they were attacking her people first. Dromoka attacked for "Heresy," Ojutai for Pride, Silumgar for Greed, and Atarka for Hunger.
But once there was no opposing force to keep her in check? Well...that's when things turned south.
Judging the entire color pairing by what we've seen as opposed to our understanding of what the colors are would mean that WU is always dogmatic, authoritative, and obsessed with insularity in either law or community, to the point of absolute destruction in a way that is, by most of our standards, evil. But I don't think anyone would argue that the default state of WU is evil the same way the argument is happening about BR.
It'd kinda be like saying "You like Magic the Gathering, therefore you identify with and/or like the character of Jace Beleren."
Well WU as a color combination is a lot about the law and making sure they are made well. They dont act selfish and the WU kind of law should benefit the people, not the individual, they are rational, not helping just to help, if you do something against the law, you will get punished, respectively (which might be a death sentence, if that is what the law got down to decide that the individual is too much of a threat or liability to keep around).
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Theres nothing really "evil" about WU in general, you might not like that kind of system, especially if you are a little bit selfish or seek an advantage or "play the system" for your own. Thats what WU tries to avoid after all.
As a red person you might give emotions too much credit and this might get you in trouble and you will get in conflict with the law.
A green part might get in troubles if they favour the "old" ways too much and law is made against that.
So any other color might get in trouble in a WU world. A blue person will not, they know what they are allowed and act according to it, you can learn a lot, in the bounds you are given (and if you wish to leave, you cannot do it in the world the law counts in, like leave a state, or get in another country or what else to do stuff you are otherwise not allowed, knowing that will still let you all the freedom you want, so its all about "know your restrictions and work with them").
A very white person might at points see themself unable to follow the law, if "honor" permits for example. This has a touch of selfishness, but its also a something that bounds you to a community which shares your idea of honor. So a white person might try to work the system, to do more good than the system is allowing (and they ignore the "reason" why the law is how it is, as they might lack the insight that blue would have).
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That said, a WU world is as good and balanced as you possible could be. But people might not enjoy the total order, you might have different views in specific points, and that alone will get you in conflict with the law at some point for sure (which a reasonable punishment would suffice, being "unreasonable" in punishment, would be against the blue aspect, as the law is ment to serve the people and do so while serving all aspects of it without severly hurting another).
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So if a WU world still has some form of black aligned politicans as rulers, they might corrupt the system to a point that the law becomes unbalanced, punishment too harsh or restrictions too extreme.
It all comes down to how good the law is, how much the law itself is shaped in a WU form (and for the world we have so far, thats never really a WU kind of law they have, as it has too much influence of other colors to really work as intended). Even Ravnica has to struggle with all the guilds and has to bend itself to the guildpact , so law cannot be made in a "pure" WU spirit (which is actually a bad thing, but in the end, some people dont want a "perfectly" fair and fully elaborate world, they "want" to have something they can abuse, or at least think they can abuse it).
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
On Ravnica, Azor I was the one who proposed the idea of the Guildpact in the first place. A coming together of powers that would likely fight for eternity and destroy themselves in the process otherwise. So, a point for positive WU there. Then one decamillenia later, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV conspires with the full body of the Azorius and Szadek of the Dimir to break the Guildpact into tiny little bits and recreate the city in the image of the Azorius. They were, with no uncertainty, the villains of Book 3 in the original Ravnica cycle, and there are arguments that they established the entire plot. And even without that, Azorius ruling is shown to be pretty ineffective and too granular for the good of anyone involved.
Come Return to Ravnica, it turns out that Azor had a puzzle in place to repair things should the Guildpact fall apart. And if it wasn't solved through teamwork (which is an odd choice for something that would arguably happen due to a complete loss of trust) then everyone gets destroyed, regardless of Guild Affiliation. And the ineffectiveness still hasn't changed that much. Lavinia is aligned with the ideal of the Azorius, but she breaks several laws and rules in the process of doing what's right for the people, which is a pretty good sign that things aren't better. Not to mention the flavor text on Supreme Verdict.
So let's look at another group focused in White and Blue: Shadowmoor's Kithkin. They aren't about law, per se. They're about community. Community to the point of extensive paranoia, xenophobia, and absolute destruction, even of their own property and selves, in the name of "protection." The embodiment of Shadowmoor's WU philosophy is pretty well exemplified in its Avatar. The Godhead of Awe. My belief, creature, etc. is superior to yours, and if you do not think so, I will make it so. Everything on Shadowmoor (except the elves) is bad, of course, but this is example number two of WU being bad for just about everybody, including WU.
Finally, let's look at the Ojutai. The Ojutai have a caste system, with humans being treated as subspecies, and all form of thought grounded in the idea that dragons are superior, and the best a human can do is to reincarnate as a dragon one day and achieve enlightenment then, with Ojutai himself sitting at the top of the wisdom pyramid, no equals. There are quite literally laws in place that prevent humans from reacting to a dragon of the Ojutai eating another human.
WU, as we've seen it, is less about "fair and balanced laws for everyone" and much more about "Fair and balanced laws for the people aligned with me." And these are not "WU with a splash of B" these are explicitly WU organizations and individuals.
But the thing is, you aren't wrong. That's the point I'm trying to make. WU as we've seen it is not any sort of beneficial for anyone other than WU. But that doesn't mean it can't be. And the same applies for BR. We've only seen BR's bad side.
Yes all the WU parties so far arent really WU, they always suffer from a black influence that wield the person in power.
I mean, if you cannot accept your own laws, you cannot be reliable WU leader. If you act selfish and stand "above" your own laws, or make the laws to specificly benefit you, they arent done in the WU aspect. Thinking your laws through and making backup plans is certainly blue, and you have to be willing to sacrifice people if that actually follows an actual rational greater good (like sacrifing a village to save a country, rough decision, but its rational, while red might just rescue the village out of emotion and later regret doing so when the country is burning).
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Story wise WU kind of suffers as they struggle to build a society based on law and the "hope" that people accept it and dont act in too extreme ways (as a society wont work if you have super good laws, but nobody actually living by them).
So as it stands i say that the WU examples we have suffer from a black aligned influence in leadership that tilts the power into destroying itself, as theres not enough consensus to accept the WU kind of laws, even if they might be superior and rationally the logically correct choices, but in the end, people will value other people around them higher, or have a fundamentally different view than you have (and if these views contradict, you cannot make a perfect choice, you either have to choose one or go with a middle ground, and the middle ground of thousand of different views is pretty terrible aswell, as you serve nobody with so much compromises that your actual goal cannot be archived ; actually a very common problem in politics, and probably a very good reason why a "perfect" WU world can only work if all the people are also very similiar, individuals will sooner or later topple the system and if they dont bow to your law, its uprising and if you cannot defend your system, it will fall apart).
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A WU planeswalker also has these attributes that they work with the law, at least try to. But at points you have to overstep and bend the laws (which you can as blue, you are smart enough to find the holes) , and at some point a bit selfishness takes over, as a very powerful individual might not bow to the weaker part if some important questions are at stake (so the white side might triumph over the rational thinking, its like "i did it in good intentions" but its still a terrible choice to make).
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BR on the other hand.
I cannot really see a world in which BR is actually good in any conceivable way.
Even if pure sadistic destruction , or acting selfishness and emotional might "somehow" result in helping out, its still a extremly terrible way of solving anything (and highly volatile, as the BR can and will , just as easily destroy and cripple what you are left with, as they will at any point just act to help themselves and profit themselves, its a eternity to struggle for power and everyone will deceive and cheat anyone at any point and just stab you in the back as they feel like it at that point in time, or you say something that makes them angry, and they lunge at you).
I mean, just imagine Rakdos or Grixis doing something "positive" , for who ? Even if they have randomly good intentions, they will just wreck anything apart at some later point (so its hardly a use for anyone, other than the absolute most powerful among them, which are not challenged).
BR planeswalkers we have are "mad" and completly crazy in that color combination. They are absolutely nothing you can work with in any reasonable way.
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For example in Kaladesh, Chandra "could" have gone mad and let emotion take over into hatred and anger. If she would go on a rampage to kill the consule and just uterly destroy everything around her, regardless of Renegades, that would give her strong red side the touch of black that dripes emotion into utter chaos.
She would still be somewhat a "hero" in the Kaladesh story, if she could just fly around and destroy the consul and obliterate Tezzeret , but that would all come at a pretty steep cost of acting completly out of control.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
That's a pretty flimsy excuse. Only the Consulate can claim to have a degree of Black influence; the Azorius, kithkin and Ojutai are all within just White/Blue and they are, respectively, an oppressive government, a xenophobic clan and a cult.
White/Blue, if anything, has been portrayed as very evil. In theory it can be rational, progressive and fair; in practice, it has been oppressive, dogmatic and unfeeling.
There are of course good White/Blue characters like Ephara, Lavinia, Tamiyo, Narset and Venser (though he was still a drug-addict prick), but like an hypothetical good Black/Red planeswalker they're acting independently.
I don't know that you can say "They were WU, but also B." Because they kind of explicitly weren't. None of the organizations mentioned had any character that was Black Aligned. The Kithkin didn't really have a leader in Shadowmoor, they were almost literally a Hive-Mind, and it was unpleasant for everyone not a Kithkin and also in many cases, unpleasant for the Kithkin. Augustin wasn't concerned with he himself being leader, or the Azorius being above everyone else. He was concerned with everyone following the laws as they "should" be. Ojutai mellowed out from his original "cleanse all knowledge but mine" philosophy, but even then, it was WU because he was doing what he thought was best for everyone. It was the Jeskai fault that their everyone didn't include Dragons, and as a result, it should be punished.
But even if you could, that's kind of the point. WU organizations and groups don't have non-evil representation in Magic, and yet, because White is there, people feel comfortable saying that it isn't all evil. BR has an advantage of even getting a little bit of positive representation in the Boggarts of Lorwyn, but because it has Black, people will be comfortable saying that there's no redeeming value in the color pair.
As for BR doing something positive? BR is the color of absolute freedom, and expression of the self. Absolute freedom, in and of itself, absolutely has problems, much in the same way that absolute order does.
I don't have that many problems imagining a BR person doing something positive, even long-term. Intentionally, a BR person will be more than happy to help if you're a friend, or if you can benefit them in some way. Or even just if the mood strikes them to be nice. Unintentionally, they can inspire revolution, or take the risks that lead to leaps and bounds in technology, magic, finance, or what have you. I don't know about other cultures, but a lot of American Folk Heroes are pretty BR.
Remember, doing whatever you want does not mean all you want to do is kill, or hurt.
Any color combination can be the absolute best, or absolute worst of the parts that make it up.
And as for the BR Planeswalker thing? We've had two. Sarkhan was crazy, I'll give you that hands down, but Daretti's motives are a bit more complex. Using that as an example is like saying "All BG characters are evil" or "UG Planeswalkers aren't Human." As of right now, it's true but the sample size is horrendously small. The WU Planeswalkers you mentioned earlier included a Grouchy Teleporting Drug Addict who disregarded the past to try and make a Planar Boat; a Human who rigidly followed the laws until she realized that the laws were written by fallible, mortal hands, and then dedicated her life to seeking knowledge; and a Vedalken who was happy to work with the big bad of the block because he literally couldn't comprehend why anyone found the man to be grotesque. They kind of vary on the morality scale and the "following the law" scale.
Yes that the point i tried to make. The cards are just WU, but the kind they behave would totally justify making them black too.
As a leader of a community has inherently more power than the non-leaders, its always questionable if your motive is just to gain that power and because of that lead the community, as it will inherently grant you the power to potentially act in your self interest.
A community that is a hive-mind is also what i said, everyone being equal, no leader, everyone is equal, everyone is rationally included in the system, nobody acts out of being selfish, as they are in the end 1 being, an entity (which by then, you could argue that a "hive" is acting selfish, while it contains many entities, but these are just the sum of that 1 "hive"-being, kinda like looking at a human an arguing your body is just a sum of cells, a hive is just a bigger version of that).
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The color combinations in Tarkir kinda take some aspects of the colors but depress others, so its fairly difficult to truly say what aspects they represent and what not (in some way all of them are white, as all of them have at least some rules they follow, and all of them make up a community in the respective clans, but being white is reduced to specific laws and honor in Tarkir).
Dragons are all in some way black, as they are clearly "superior" to the humans and thats one aspect of black, to see yourself as something "clearly" better and by that alone you gain special rights (or for just animalistic thinking, you have a Food chain and something is up there and anything else is just food).
Yes here i also said that WU only really works "pure" if the people actually form some community that accepts the law. As soon as you have a different party that is completly different , you cannot enforce "your" idea of law on them, they dont have that law. So what do you do ? You either accept it, and just ignore them (certainly an option) , or you enforce your law on them, which again is BLACK , it means, your idea of law is clearly superior and they have to follow it, because "you say so".
However, in Ravnica, Azorious was just WU , but it clearly has black influence, which isnt shown on the cards, but the motives arent pure WU , as theres the conflict with the other guilds, that they are not ignoring (mostly as they try to go a more or less diplomatic victory approach, thats what a guildpact is about in the end, like a peace treatment, and a backup plan if that doesnt work out to save yourself).
But politcal victory certainly means that you will sooner or later at least try to accumulate the other guilds into your community (if you choose not to ignore them).
A world in which WU law would be the actual law for everyone and enforced on everyone, it would certainly work.
The ultimate form of it, might actually be a Hive-Mind like structure, in which people overall agree with each other or at least go with the option the majority thinks is best for everyone.
As long as theres conflict, WU will always somehow get some black influence in what its doing (as it easily drifts into the politics area).
For whats "finally" evil, you have to define what that is in your fictive world.
I mean killing people, certainly "evil", you need a damn good reason to do it, and if that reason is justified, depends a lot on that worlds laws and views.
Killing animals might be completly fine for one person, while its extremly "evil" for others. Stealing might be fine in some peoples eyes, as long as they steal from people that also stole it (nice chain of stealing that becomes).
If a problem becomes extremly huge, like a Eldrazi invasion, people will probably work together, but that doesnt really make them "white" , as it comes down to pure survival against enemies you cannot possible defeat yourself (so even black will side with others to save themself, but the cards are still just black, as it would be silly for the game to colorshift anything just for that, doesnt really work so you dont do it).
Its for sure very very short-term if a truly BR aligned being helps a different course to succeed.
You would much more easily expect that the BR being would just uter Chaos and self-destruction over helping people.
Some weak BR aligned creatures might be slaves and helpers to more powerful beings, but even they will kick the boss out of the window, the moment they see a chance to gain more power themself.
So if BR helps others, you cannot ever turn your back on that "ally", theres simply no trust at all in BR, theres just "do whatever you feel like at any point".
Well "help" might be a too strong word for a BR being. It will "use" you to archive its own goal , which is fundamentally based on gaining more power in some way or another (if you dont care for power you are just red, not black).
Killing people and ignoring any law or order, anything is possible if BR wants to archive a goal, they just do it and side with anyone to to archive it, but only so long, till they are the last enemy standing. At some point, each BR being is a lot about self-destruction, as they care only for themself and nothing else and switch alliances at any point and attack allies at any point.
I dont know enough about daretti to make any educated guesses, but in the end, BR is about acting out of emotions, and black is about gaining power for yourself. These two combined are pretty much the most Non-hero you can make, its kind of the text-book crazy villain that just wants to see the world burn (if thats his enjoyment, so be it).
Yea, WU is certainly not the definition of "good" , theres probably no color that is perfectly good, as being good depends so much on viewpoints and even if you think you are doing everyone good, someone will certainly dislike you still ; simply said, its impossible to make anyone happy (someone will be somehow less happy than others).
But in general, WU produces a pretty good idea of "good" that is represented in our real world too. Think about what you do, plan it, do it for the "greater good" and do not act selfish, the law should reflect that.
Black aligned color combinations will always have the "selfish" part that is quite prominent (even in WB, its primarly projected on some kind of church, that will look like a community to the outside, but is quite corrupted in the inside). And being selfish is a prominent factor for villains (not necessarly, but acting selfish has a pretty good chance that it ends in something that will certainly not help others).
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Philosophically, white is very comfortable saying that it's better than someone and forcing their opinion on others. White is the one that decides moral and immoral after all.
But, I'm seeing that this is probably something we just...won't ever agree on due to a fundamentally different view on the color pie. It's been a pleasure.
I prefer a group of characters become Super Sentai naturally out of who they are, rather than changing who they are just to form a Sentai. Nine Titans was fun because they were united for a single purpose, some members disliked each other and many of them were pretty much amoral jerks, but if you separate them they each still got personality mightier than the whole pre-Ajani Gatewatch, each able to hold books of stories alone. God, I miss Bo Levar.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Instead Planeswalkers arrive already masters of everything there, always serve the biggest, best roles and make everyone else seem incapable. If someone is, like Jenrik, they're killed so Jace (who is my favorite PW, mind you) can serve the investigator role instead. Planeswalkers always overshadow the rest of the cast, which I could dismiss if they weren't doing it on someone else's turf every time, having just arrived there? Worlds are literally their playgrounds and they just toy with massive feats such as taking down the Eldrazi or turning Zendikar inside out to do it as if these were simple measures and not astounding acts. It's just a shame to me not to see more exploration and awe for such worlds, or these characters actively searching and learning how to do things they just happen to just do without any real work.
For example, Gideon realizing he was no longer on Theros. Can you imagine being blinked randomly into a desert, only to realize you're in a dune on Saturn's moon Titan which you thought was Arizona for a moment? Would you be blasé about THAT?!
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Well,.. there is something that exists which could serve a similar function. It's not a "spark radar" and doesn't isolate unignited sparks or anything (in fact it wouldn't even be able to detect unignited sparks, since it detects the act of planeswalking itself), but Project Lightning Bug does allow one to track planeswalkers, which could be used as a tool for capturing them. Again, not the same, but could serve a similar narrative purpose.
About the members of the Gatewatch I am sort of content. Not exactly enthusiastic but I like them for the most part. Ajani joining is a huge plus for me as he's awesome.
I think the problem is that the format of a story per week is holding the idea back however. Its hard to really give these characters depth when there are so many plot points and only so many stories. Plus the fact that they are monocolored makes it even harder to give them any meaningful characterization imo.
UBarrin, Master WizardU
USticher GeralfU
UIxidor, Reality SculptorU
UWNoyan Dar, Roil ShaperUW
I don't think monocolor is an issue, consider each color has more than one facet to work on. For example, Garruk and Nissa are both green, one is ferocious and the other tree-huging. Red can be as impulsive as Chandra or as thoughtful and loving as Feldon. Blue you got Jace the nerd and Baral the verbally manipulative. I believe their single-mindedness at times is there to ensure the Sentai components hold, i.e., everyone is different therefore a plus and a minus to the team.
But I agree, story is a major part of why Gatewatch hasn't been more functional, one reason being that they have yet to meet their match. Eldrazi rawrs, Tezz schemes, but neither has truly caused Gatewatch to run away in defeat, which makes it less convincing as an organization so young. If a RPG game allows a new band of heroes to triumph over cosmic terror so early, so easily, the game would bask in bad light, Gatewatch is no different.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Baral isn't a planeswalker.
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
His point wasn't about mono-colored Planeswalkers, it was about mono-colored Characters.
Yes, even within the same color, characters can vary, which is why we got both Liliana and Yahenni in black.
Which is also why I feel rather annoyed when players AND Wizards see Ravnica guilds as the prime guidance for characters/cards of two colors. Guilds were created under political and environmental pressure, that doesn't make them the only way to imagine dual-color characters. W/R characters can be loyal zealots like Boros, but they could also be volatile but good nature figures like Bruse Tarl. (Stop making combat centric W/R cards only!)
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
The whole problem was the defeat of the Eldrazi and the whole "We must protect the multiverse so let's make the Oath". It was way too idealistic from the start. Perhaps I'm a bit too jaded, but I think using despair instead of idealism for resolve is a lot better for storytelling. Imagine the Gatewatch was formed only after all that Emrakul had put them through, suddenly you get the anti-nihilist vibe from them and it feels so much more "better" why they choose to be heroic despite realizing the insignificance of existence itself. Even better if Ulamog & Kozilek managed to escape back then, but they weren't convinced to band together until Emrakul united them through sheer terror. That would have allowed a lot more development between characters, making the formation of the Gatewatch more realistic (rather than a band of people who just felt guilty over releasing the Elrazi Lock happen to arrive on the same time on the plane...), then the additional growth we got from Kaladesh would have blossomed better, not like the way we're more or less disregarding these Eldrazi-slayers now to some degree.
I liken it to having Batman's origin-story pitting him against Darkseid - it's incredibly difficult to make the hero winning, much less winning a non-phyrric victory, look plausible because the villain has been built up as being in an entirely different league. The initial buildup was that Neowalkers are not the borderline omnipotent godlike beings that the Oldwalkers were, and when Nahiri and Sorin couldn't kill the Titans (let's presume that they at least tried Before Ugin suggested the sealing, otherwise the story makes even less sense)... the Gatewatch are ants, and the Eldrazi Titans are boots.
My biggest problem with the Gatewatch is that they're being written as comicbook characters (again, Jacetus League), but the wins they got early on were too big - what's the point in pitting Spider-man against Kingpin, a human crimelord, when he's already fought Thanos the Mad Titan and beaten him clean? Any fear that they could lose has already been thoroughly squashed.