Yeah, that makes sense and all, and I feel like I would've liked it more, if we didn't JUST have an entire eldrazi block, and a pretty lame one at that
I agree, would have helped with the mystery element, since so many people already had eldrazi in their heads. At least it wasn't the plan at the start.
Also, agree with the Nissa change. She could've had AMAZING character development, from being a straight up racist to someone that realizes every life is valuable. Instead, they're trying (or already have?) retconned it so she was also peaceful and loving.
Again I agree would have been very interesting to see how she felt now in a group with no other elves, as well as what is hinted as a romance with a human.
Like, really? Not only that, but as mentioned, she dabbled in black mana too as opposed to be strictly mono-green.
IIRC that info was only in the video game she was made for so hoe canon that was to the main game is iffy.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
The Eldrazi in SOI/EMN wasn't the problem. Actually it was brilliant IMO.
The problem was the horrible, horrendous, nauseating slop of hot mess that BFZ was that caused everyone to hate the Eldrazi and Zendikar, one of the most loved planes, which was also ruined to tell the story of the former. Innistrad was too loved to suffer the same fate, and to see the wrong focus being given again to not the plane, but the Eldrazi instead. By focusing on the wrong thing, the Eldrazi, so much and so little on Adventure World they choked the set with Eldrazi and Devoid crap and in the process, the story ended up having to literally TRASH Adventure World. The entire point of Zendikar is to be a lush, expansive and uncharted world of exploration. Many of its continents are not literally dust and most are compromised. BFZ did so much wrong by every metric that frankly, had SOI/EMN not been almost a complete redemption, I really think Innistrad might have fallen out of favor with players as well. Which comes to show what the wrong focus and poor mechanics and design can do to an otherwise loved and popular plane like Zendikar, and why I strongly feel the physical geography and theme of Kamigawa have potential where the cards and focus failed. Zendikar proved to be a 2 on the Rabiah scale, yet suffered greatly by all metrics because of BFZ - if it can, what of others?
Thankfully SOI/EMN did Eldrazi and Cosmic Horror layered over Gothic Horror exceptionally well. The only downside was murdering Avacyn, which compromised Innistrad's identity. But I can see now that it's the complete Horror World - cosmic and gothic alike - rather than pure gothic with a church contrast. I'd have preferred all three elements, but that's just me. Avacyn missing just skews too much of the world into a very linear, predictable trajectory with no breathing room or contrast.
Yeah see I wouldn't have minded the Eldrazi on Innistrad -- would've made the gothic thing be way more Lovecraftian, which is never a complaint! But as you said, Eldrazi were ruined for me. We got to see Zendikar, a plane booming with cool lands and plants, turn into a tiring boring plane overtaken by Eldrazi (a "HUGE THREAT" that were easily taken down by 4 twenty something year olds? what???)
Killing Avacyn was ssuuuuch a huge mistake. I know we'll return to the plane SOMEDAY due to how much people love it and the loose ends they left, so maybe they'll find a way to bring her back..? Maybe..? Hopeful wishes haha.
Also, on topic, how freaking AMAZING was the art for new Emrakul?! I'm still impressed, months later!
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The Eldrazi in SOI/EMN wasn't the problem. Actually it was brilliant IMO.
I never thought that. I just didn't like that SoI was right after BtZ. It would be have been best to wait until this year for SoI to come out.
Thankfully SOI/EMN did Eldrazi and Cosmic Horror layered over Gothic Horror exceptionally well. The only downside was murdering Avacyn, which compromised Innistrad's identity. But I can see now that it's the complete Horror World - cosmic and gothic alike - rather than pure gothic with a church contrast. I'd have preferred all three elements, but that's just me. Avacyn missing just skews too much of the world into a very linear, predictable trajectory with no breathing room or contrast.
Killing Avacyn was ssuuuuch a huge mistake. I know we'll return to the plane SOMEDAY due to how much people love it and the loose ends they left, so maybe they'll find a way to bring her back..? Maybe..? Hopeful wishes haha.
Issue is with Avacyn around it would have been hard to find conflict. She is too powerful of a source for their to be any *big* conflict. It would end up being predictable since every Innistrad block would have to figure out why Avacyn couldn't just save the day. Heck, she was able to stop Emrakul from being able to fully manifest on the plane.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Yeah see I wouldn't have minded the Eldrazi on Innistrad -- would've made the gothic thing be way more Lovecraftian, which is never a complaint! But as you said, Eldrazi were ruined for me. We got to see Zendikar, a plane booming with cool lands and plants, turn into a tiring boring plane overtaken by Eldrazi (a "HUGE THREAT" that were easily taken down by 4 twenty something year olds? what???)
Killing Avacyn was ssuuuuch a huge mistake. I know we'll return to the plane SOMEDAY due to how much people love it and the loose ends they left, so maybe they'll find a way to bring her back..? Maybe..? Hopeful wishes haha.
Also, on topic, how freaking AMAZING was the art for new Emrakul?! I'm still impressed, months later!
Well, Sigarda is still alive, but not as strong as Avacyn. So there's still an Angel around for the "Good Guys" to build their Church around, but she's not gonna be strong enough to keep someone like Emrakul from showing up.
But like 5colors said, apparently there was supposed to be a block between BfZ and SoI that got scrapped or shuffled to a later date, leaving us with two Eldrazi stories back-to-back, which left people feeling bored with the bloody things.
And I'll repeat my argument until I die: the Gatewatch should NOT have been able to kill the Eldrazi. The Titans had recieved too much build-up as a threat for "4 twenty something year olds" to credibly kill them. Defeat, like how the Fantastic Four have defeated or redirected Galactus, certainly, but not outright kill.
I don't mind them actually.
The only real issue I had with the main storyline so far is the BFZ block, where, as others have pointed out, the death of 2 of the Eldrazi titans at the hands of a fledgling team of 'Walkers felt pretty forced and unbefitting the Lovecraftian element upon which the Eldrazi were based. Had they resealed, deflected or done something else to preserve the plane without the titans' deaths I would have been more at ease. Sure, they explained how it happened, but not well, not well at all. I also found the battle scenes not particularly done well in that block, and as others have mentioned the recharactarization of Nissa was jarring and unnecessary, a slow development into the character they wanted her to be could have worked out really well but hand-waving always feels like cheating as far as narrative is concerned.
The other bocks have been better in my opinion and I always knew Emrakul was gonna make an appearance after seeing hints in SOI. I'm Not a fan of artifact worlds but I'll give Wizards credit- The world of Kaledesh is beautiful, despite my dislike of artifact themes as a whole.
What I've enjoyed the most so far is seeing how each member of the team contributes and clashes within the group as this what I believe makes these characters stand out-
Sure, The Gatewatch can be seen as unashamedly taking advantage from marketing success of Marvel's Avenger Cini Universe but tropes in and of themselves are not bad, It's how well they do these tropes that will determine its success. If people begin to weary of the ensemble theme then Creative needs to downplay or subvert the tropes that their story has most in common with the other franchises. If people are not tired of this theme, then they can continue the script while investing resources in creating marketable Unique and original concepts that ensure that theirproducts are pushing and leading the creative envelope instead of the other way around. Following the lead of other industries will always be safer but without innovation, no company can ensure their brand and products truly stand out, and with a Magic Movie on the way, the originality and boldness of their brand, along with enough familiarity or confidence that such will be liked, will be what decides whether the MTG Movie and associated brand flips or flops.
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Wizards. listen. The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
Yeah see I wouldn't have minded the Eldrazi on Innistrad -- would've made the gothic thing be way more Lovecraftian, which is never a complaint! But as you said, Eldrazi were ruined for me. We got to see Zendikar, a plane booming with cool lands and plants, turn into a tiring boring plane overtaken by Eldrazi (a "HUGE THREAT" that were easily taken down by 4 twenty something year olds? what???)
Killing Avacyn was ssuuuuch a huge mistake. I know we'll return to the plane SOMEDAY due to how much people love it and the loose ends they left, so maybe they'll find a way to bring her back..? Maybe..? Hopeful wishes haha.
Also, on topic, how freaking AMAZING was the art for new Emrakul?! I'm still impressed, months later!
Well, Sigarda is still alive, but not as strong as Avacyn. So there's still an Angel around for the "Good Guys" to build their Church around, but she's not gonna be strong enough to keep someone like Emrakul from showing up.
But like 5colors said, apparently there was supposed to be a block between BfZ and SoI that got scrapped or shuffled to a later date, leaving us with two Eldrazi stories back-to-back, which left people feeling bored with the bloody things.
And I'll repeat my argument until I die: the Gatewatch should NOT have been able to kill the Eldrazi. The Titans had recieved too much build-up as a threat for "4 twenty something year olds" to credibly kill them. Defeat, like how the Fantastic Four have defeated or redirected Galactus, certainly, but not outright kill.
(Sorry, off-topic)
The problem with replacing Avacyn with Sigarda, is simply that Sigarda can in no way, shape or form fill Avacyn's shoes. She's nowhere near as powerful, which in and of itself wouldn't necessarily be an insurmountable obstacle, except that the system of enchantments that propped up the Avacynian church is also gone. No more wards, no more Avacynian magic, nothing. Without Avacyn (and the great big ol pyramid of magic she was but the tip of) the entire church is a useless husk offering little more than pointless dogma.
It's not going to take the population long to realize that Sigarda simply CANNOT BE a replacement for Avacyn, and then what would be the point of carrying on the Avacynian tradition? People will HAVE to turn to other sources for protection against all the horrors of the plane. They'll HAVE to turn away from the church, which could only serve to weaken Sigarda's position even farther.
The only way I can see the church continuing to exist is shifting its focus away from the angels and towards the spirits (such as Saint Traft), but Sigarda then becomes a useless figure. She wouldn't even serve a purpose as a figure head, since many people are unlikely to keep putting their faith in an angel after what just happened anyway.
Yeah see I wouldn't have minded the Eldrazi on Innistrad -- would've made the gothic thing be way more Lovecraftian, which is never a complaint! But as you said, Eldrazi were ruined for me. We got to see Zendikar, a plane booming with cool lands and plants, turn into a tiring boring plane overtaken by Eldrazi (a "HUGE THREAT" that were easily taken down by 4 twenty something year olds? what???)
Killing Avacyn was ssuuuuch a huge mistake. I know we'll return to the plane SOMEDAY due to how much people love it and the loose ends they left, so maybe they'll find a way to bring her back..? Maybe..? Hopeful wishes haha.
Also, on topic, how freaking AMAZING was the art for new Emrakul?! I'm still impressed, months later!
Well, Sigarda is still alive, but not as strong as Avacyn. So there's still an Angel around for the "Good Guys" to build their Church around, but she's not gonna be strong enough to keep someone like Emrakul from showing up.
But like 5colors said, apparently there was supposed to be a block between BfZ and SoI that got scrapped or shuffled to a later date, leaving us with two Eldrazi stories back-to-back, which left people feeling bored with the bloody things.
And I'll repeat my argument until I die: the Gatewatch should NOT have been able to kill the Eldrazi. The Titans had recieved too much build-up as a threat for "4 twenty something year olds" to credibly kill them. Defeat, like how the Fantastic Four have defeated or redirected Galactus, certainly, but not outright kill.
(Sorry, off-topic)
The problem with replacing Avacyn with Sigarda, is simply that Sigarda can in no way, shape or form fill Avacyn's shoes. She's nowhere near as powerful, which in and of itself wouldn't necessarily be an insurmountable obstacle, except that the system of enchantments that propped up the Avacynian church is also gone. No more wards, no more Avacynian magic, nothing. Without Avacyn (and the great big ol pyramid of magic she was but the tip of) the entire church is a useless husk offering little more than pointless dogma.
It's not going to take the population long to realize that Sigarda simply CANNOT BE a replacement for Avacyn, and then what would be the point of carrying on the Avacynian tradition? People will HAVE to turn to other sources for protection against all the horrors of the plane. They'll HAVE to turn away from the church, which could only serve to weaken Sigarda's position even farther.
The only way I can see the church continuing to exist is shifting its focus away from the angels and towards the spirits (such as Saint Traft), but Sigarda then becomes a useless figure. She wouldn't even serve a purpose as a figure head, since many people are unlikely to keep putting their faith in an angel after what just happened anyway.
I imagine that will be a major theme for Innistrad 3.0. None of the remaining powers is strong enough any more to dominate. The church is still in a schism in 3 parts: Sigarda, the Order of St Traft, and the corrupt core ruled by Ormandhal. They are essentially in a "Game of Thrones" state with a bunch of powers fighting for dominance. Arlinn and her wolf-pack will protect some people as well. Then there is Olivia in her new position as Queen of the remaining vampires. The world is still filled with horrors, and maybe even some Eldrazi remainder, but no clear power to protect the people. This will definitely benefit the demons who will promise protection to exploit the weak and gain new sacrifices.
I mean, all of the angels being gone except Sigarda is a huge hit, and humans were already almost wiped out without Avacyn for a relatively brief amount of time. While there will be some monsters "protecting" humans I don't see it being enough to make up the power shift. Even if there wasn't Avacyn there were still other angels around during Dark Ascension at least. Now? Nothing, Sigarda is just one angel.
Also the power of Avacyn waxed and waned, she couldn't be "too powerful", she was always powerful enough to keep humans from being wiped out but not so powerful she could kill all of the monsters, that's how she was set up. It's how Innistrad existed in equilibrium for all those years.
I'd like to see more evident anti heroes having important roles in the lore. I'm not a big fan of one dimentional power ranger freedom fighters.
That would be a natural role for Sorin to take on, really. He's wonderfully morally ambiguous without being as incomprehensibly powerful and alien as Ugin. Maybe someday, once he stops being stoned on Innistrad. I would imagine he would tire pretty quickly of the situation in which Nahiri left him, and which Olivia is no doubt enjoying.
Someone else mentioned this, but I would love to see a situation in which Garruk and the Gatewatch were forced to work together for some greater purpose.
Don't you guys think gatewatch would be way cooler if they added more interesting anti-hero characters? Even some episodic or temporary ones. For example a Phyrexian planswalker (This has to be a thing) that got tired of their crappy ideology and now wants to fight corruption on any world. Or some shady guy that is eager to help but always wants something in return. Or even a typical antagonist that just joins them because there is greater menace to purge. Something that spices up that pure, feelgood justice league flair.
Well, that position would have probably been filled by either Liliana (pretty self-explanatory) or Nissa (who was originally presented as an Elvish supremacist ("Nissa was first presented as as a proud nature-mage who believed that elves are the pinnacle race of the multiverse, and the Joraga the greatest of them all.") with ties to the elves of Lorwyn, and who dabbled in black mana ("Her planar travels took her to the sunny world of Lorwyn where elves thrived and ruled uncontested. There she met elves who fully embraced their role as the pinnacle of nature, using both life magic and its deadly shadow to assert their primacy. This encounter led Nissa to experiment with black mana on her own terms, in secret, using it to complement her own elvish teachings."), before that all got retconned). But Wizards unwillingness to keep those traits leave the groups interactions feeling a bit... toothless.
Don't you guys think gatewatch would be way cooler if they added more interesting anti-hero characters? Even some episodic or temporary ones. For example a Phyrexian planswalker (This has to be a thing) that got tired of their crappy ideology and now wants to fight corruption on any world. Or some shady guy that is eager to help but always wants something in return. Or even a typical antagonist that just joins them because there is greater menace to purge. Something that spices up that pure, feelgood justice league flair.
Not really. Most antiheroes tend to be incredibly generic and unexciting, edgy for the sake of it.
Phyrexians cannot have a spark I believe. Part of being completed removes the spark. I may be wrong though.
That is true. Karn's spark made him immune to the oil and it was only when he lost it during Time Spiral that he became infected (apparently he had been licking the oil to other worlds he had visited without realising it.) When Venser gave him his own spark Karn was instantly healed. Its also probably the reason Koth has not been infected by the oil, though I suppose if the phyrexians compleated him through the more traditional means he would lose his spark.
Well, that position would have probably been filled by either Liliana (pretty self-explanatory) or Nissa (who was originally presented as an Elvish supremacist ("Nissa was first presented as as a proud nature-mage who believed that elves are the pinnacle race of the multiverse, and the Joraga the greatest of them all.") with ties to the elves of Lorwyn, and who dabbled in black mana ("Her planar travels took her to the sunny world of Lorwyn where elves thrived and ruled uncontested. There she met elves who fully embraced their role as the pinnacle of nature, using both life magic and its deadly shadow to assert their primacy. This encounter led Nissa to experiment with black mana on her own terms, in secret, using it to complement her own elvish teachings."), before that all got retconned). But Wizards unwillingness to keep those traits leave the groups interactions feeling a bit... toothless.
Right?! The fact they're trying to retcon that is so ridiculous. That alone is what made Nissa so interesting. She went from an actual racist, to realizing her ways of thinking were wrong, and (if they hadn't tried messing with it) would eventually lead to her joining the Gatewatch, where she'd be helping people from other planes (and races), and working alongside people of a different race than her! It would mean such huge important character development, and something we could admire and believe in. When you take her entire backstory and retcon it, she literally just becomes another boring token green mana character..
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Frequent lurker and vorthos player
Well, that position would have probably been filled by either Liliana (pretty self-explanatory) or Nissa (who was originally presented as an Elvish supremacist ("Nissa was first presented as as a proud nature-mage who believed that elves are the pinnacle race of the multiverse, and the Joraga the greatest of them all.") with ties to the elves of Lorwyn, and who dabbled in black mana ("Her planar travels took her to the sunny world of Lorwyn where elves thrived and ruled uncontested. There she met elves who fully embraced their role as the pinnacle of nature, using both life magic and its deadly shadow to assert their primacy. This encounter led Nissa to experiment with black mana on her own terms, in secret, using it to complement her own elvish teachings."), before that all got retconned). But Wizards unwillingness to keep those traits leave the groups interactions feeling a bit... toothless.
Right?! The fact they're trying to retcon that is so ridiculous. That alone is what made Nissa so interesting. She went from an actual racist, to realizing her ways of thinking were wrong, and (if they hadn't tried messing with it) would eventually lead to her joining the Gatewatch, where she'd be helping people from other planes (and races), and working alongside people of a different race than her! It would mean such huge important character development, and something we could admire and believe in. When you take her entire backstory and retcon it, she literally just becomes another boring token green mana character..
Agreed. Supremacist Nissa and her integration into the Gatewatch could have had so much potential. It's a crying shame.
Well, that position would have probably been filled by either Liliana (pretty self-explanatory) or Nissa (who was originally presented as an Elvish supremacist ("Nissa was first presented as as a proud nature-mage who believed that elves are the pinnacle race of the multiverse, and the Joraga the greatest of them all.") with ties to the elves of Lorwyn, and who dabbled in black mana ("Her planar travels took her to the sunny world of Lorwyn where elves thrived and ruled uncontested. There she met elves who fully embraced their role as the pinnacle of nature, using both life magic and its deadly shadow to assert their primacy. This encounter led Nissa to experiment with black mana on her own terms, in secret, using it to complement her own elvish teachings."), before that all got retconned). But Wizards unwillingness to keep those traits leave the groups interactions feeling a bit... toothless.
Right?! The fact they're trying to retcon that is so ridiculous. That alone is what made Nissa so interesting. She went from an actual racist, to realizing her ways of thinking were wrong, and (if they hadn't tried messing with it) would eventually lead to her joining the Gatewatch, where she'd be helping people from other planes (and races), and working alongside people of a different race than her! It would mean such huge important character development, and something we could admire and believe in. When you take her entire backstory and retcon it, she literally just becomes another boring token green mana character..
Agreed. Supremacist Nissa and her integration into the Gatewatch could have had so much potential. It's a crying shame.
Agreed! Apart from not particularly liking the majority of the Gatewatch characters, I firmly believe that color shifts are the best way to show character growth and make characters interesting. Not that mono colored characters can't be interesting, but when a character just so typically embodies what they're supposed to represent, it's just predictable and boring. Had we gotten a green/black version of a young Nissa in Origins, I would've loved it! This is in part why Ajani is one of my favorite planeawalkers. He's grown as a character and his cards and color shifts in his cards show it. He's gone from being a shunned member of his pride, to an angry and vengeful warrior, to a leader and mentor. That's been in the past 4-5(?) years of in universe time? Sarkhan, too, has shown character growth, emphasized by his color shifts - each card representing a new outlook, but still being the same dragon obsessed character. I understand the need to start with and make sure all 5 colors were represented, but as we get more characters I really do hope to see color shifts among the origins 5. That, or to see them replaced and/or killed off.
Well, that position would have probably been filled by either Liliana (pretty self-explanatory) or Nissa (who was originally presented as an Elvish supremacist ("Nissa was first presented as as a proud nature-mage who believed that elves are the pinnacle race of the multiverse, and the Joraga the greatest of them all.") with ties to the elves of Lorwyn, and who dabbled in black mana ("Her planar travels took her to the sunny world of Lorwyn where elves thrived and ruled uncontested. There she met elves who fully embraced their role as the pinnacle of nature, using both life magic and its deadly shadow to assert their primacy. This encounter led Nissa to experiment with black mana on her own terms, in secret, using it to complement her own elvish teachings."), before that all got retconned). But Wizards unwillingness to keep those traits leave the groups interactions feeling a bit... toothless.
Right?! The fact they're trying to retcon that is so ridiculous. That alone is what made Nissa so interesting. She went from an actual racist, to realizing her ways of thinking were wrong, and (if they hadn't tried messing with it) would eventually lead to her joining the Gatewatch, where she'd be helping people from other planes (and races), and working alongside people of a different race than her! It would mean such huge important character development, and something we could admire and believe in. When you take her entire backstory and retcon it, she literally just becomes another boring token green mana character..
Agreed. Supremacist Nissa and her integration into the Gatewatch could have had so much potential. It's a crying shame.
Agreed! Apart from not particularly liking the majority of the Gatewatch characters, I firmly believe that color shifts are the best way to show character growth and make characters interesting. Not that mono colored characters can't be interesting, but when a character just so typically embodies what they're supposed to represent, it's just predictable and boring. Had we gotten a green/black version of a young Nissa in Origins, I would've loved it! This is in part why Ajani is one of my favorite planeawalkers. He's grown as a character and his cards and color shifts in his cards show it. He's gone from being a shunned member of his pride, to an angry and vengeful warrior, to a leader and mentor. That's been in the past 4-5(?) years of in universe time? Sarkhan, too, has shown character growth, emphasized by his color shifts - each card representing a new outlook, but still being the same dragon obsessed character. I understand the need to start with and make sure all 5 colors were represented, but as we get more characters I really do hope to see color shifts among the origins 5. That, or to see them replaced and/or killed off.
... what do you think the Gatewatch characters personalities would have been if they were all multicolored? Like...
Well the whole point of the origins 5 characters is that they ARE mono-colored. That said, IF any of them were to expand into multiple colors, I think it would break down like this:
Gideon: W -> WR
Jace: U -> UW
Liliana: B -> BU
Chandra: R -> RW
Nissa: G -> GB
Note that I'm basing this purely on their characterizations, both past and present, as their power sets are all firmly mono-colors.
A LOT of her actions are fueled by hotheaded, instinctual and emotion-driven reactions and she often dislikes/hates authority as they tend to take away various freedoms from her.
Chandra is way too much of a rebellious person to be part of Boros or Iroas ( ) . Which is what Gideon is like. Soldiers, martial prowess, order, etc.
She also is not very Rakdos or Mogis ( ). Which is kind of known for sadistic pleasure, brutal maimings, wanton violence, etc.
She is not really an Izzet or Keranos person ( ) . Because she does not have the personality of Dack Fayden or Ral Zarak.
So where does that leave her? She would be right at home among the Gruul or maybe in one of Xenagos's revels if she was into that.
Quote from Gruuls Biggest Strengths and Weaknesses »
Red/Green's greatest strength is the force of its brutality. With nothing making it hold anything back, Red/Green packs a powerful punch. Even colors with answers to Red/Green often fall to the speed and raw power of Red/Green. To paraphrase a famous pro player (Dave Price): "There are wrong answers; there are never wrong threats."
Red/Green's greatest weakness is its complete lack of foresight or preparation. If Red/Green's Plan A doesn't work, Red/Green has problems because it didn't bother to come up with a Plan B. Heck, plan A wasn't that well thought out either. In addition, Red/Green has problems solving things that aren't straight-forward. Once the option of blowing it up and then hitting it are exhausted, Red/Green starts to run out of options.
A LOT of her actions are fueled by hotheaded, instinctual and emotion-driven reactions and she often dislikes/hates authority as they tend to take away various freedoms from her.
Chandra is way too much of a rebellious person to be part of Boros or Iroas ( ) . Which is what Gideon is like. Soldiers, martial prowess, order, etc.
She also is not very Rakdos or Mogis ( ). Which is kind of known for sadistic pleasure, brutal maimings, wanton violence, etc.
She is not really an Izzet or Keranos person ( ) . Because she does not have the personality of Dack Fayden or Ral Zarak.
So where does that leave her? She would be right at home among the Gruul or maybe in one of Xenagos's revels if she was into that.
Quote from Gruuls Biggest Strengths and Weaknesses »
Red/Green's greatest strength is the force of its brutality. With nothing making it hold anything back, Red/Green packs a powerful punch. Even colors with answers to Red/Green often fall to the speed and raw power of Red/Green. To paraphrase a famous pro player (Dave Price): "There are wrong answers; there are never wrong threats."
Red/Green's greatest weakness is its complete lack of foresight or preparation. If Red/Green's Plan A doesn't work, Red/Green has problems because it didn't bother to come up with a Plan B. Heck, plan A wasn't that well thought out either. In addition, Red/Green has problems solving things that aren't straight-forward. Once the option of blowing it up and then hitting it are exhausted, Red/Green starts to run out of options.
Probably. My orignal post putting her in ( ) was mostly pigeonholing for the sake of color balance (though I do seem to recall Chandra being a little grabby with tings that weren't hers...Fuel for the Fire?), and she'd more than likely be ( ) or ( ). Though, now that I think about it, Ajani not being WRG strikes me as a little weird; last I remember, he was becoming something of an iconoclast on Theros, wich sounds VERY R.
A LOT of her actions are fueled by hotheaded, instinctual and emotion-driven reactions and she often dislikes/hates authority as they tend to take away various freedoms from her.
Chandra is way too much of a rebellious person to be part of Boros or Iroas ( ) . Which is what Gideon is like. Soldiers, martial prowess, order, etc.
She also is not very Rakdos or Mogis ( ). Which is kind of known for sadistic pleasure, brutal maimings, wanton violence, etc.
She is not really an Izzet or Keranos person ( ) . Because she does not have the personality of Dack Fayden or Ral Zarak.
So where does that leave her? She would be right at home among the Gruul or maybe in one of Xenagos's revels if she was into that.
Quote from Gruuls Biggest Strengths and Weaknesses »
Red/Green's greatest strength is the force of its brutality. With nothing making it hold anything back, Red/Green packs a powerful punch. Even colors with answers to Red/Green often fall to the speed and raw power of Red/Green. To paraphrase a famous pro player (Dave Price): "There are wrong answers; there are never wrong threats."
Red/Green's greatest weakness is its complete lack of foresight or preparation. If Red/Green's Plan A doesn't work, Red/Green has problems because it didn't bother to come up with a Plan B. Heck, plan A wasn't that well thought out either. In addition, Red/Green has problems solving things that aren't straight-forward. Once the option of blowing it up and then hitting it are exhausted, Red/Green starts to run out of options.
Probably. My orignal post putting her in ( ) was mostly pigeonholing. Though, now that I think about it, Ajani not being WRG strikes me as a little weird; last I remember, he was becoming something of an iconoclast on Theros, wich sounds VERY R.
To further expand, consider the Gatewatch itself. It is a community of people that share common goals and interests. Chandra likes being with these other people even if she does butt heads with Jace or Gideon on matters. They, the gatewatch, are in a sense, Chandra's friends and family and that is how she does view them.
Ajani being WRG makes sense. His is a very Naya way of thinking. He doesn't mind the worship so much as he dislikes how the gods try to control the mortals and he dislikes how cruel they can be if the mortals don't gel with a god's intentions.
A LOT of her actions are fueled by hotheaded, instinctual and emotion-driven reactions and she often dislikes/hates authority as they tend to take away various freedoms from her.
Chandra is way too much of a rebellious person to be part of Boros or Iroas ( ) . Which is what Gideon is like. Soldiers, martial prowess, order, etc.
She also is not very Rakdos or Mogis ( ). Which is kind of known for sadistic pleasure, brutal maimings, wanton violence, etc.
She is not really an Izzet or Keranos person ( ) . Because she does not have the personality of Dack Fayden or Ral Zarak.
So where does that leave her? She would be right at home among the Gruul or maybe in one of Xenagos's revels if she was into that.
Quote from Gruuls Biggest Strengths and Weaknesses »
Red/Green's greatest strength is the force of its brutality. With nothing making it hold anything back, Red/Green packs a powerful punch. Even colors with answers to Red/Green often fall to the speed and raw power of Red/Green. To paraphrase a famous pro player (Dave Price): "There are wrong answers; there are never wrong threats."
Red/Green's greatest weakness is its complete lack of foresight or preparation. If Red/Green's Plan A doesn't work, Red/Green has problems because it didn't bother to come up with a Plan B. Heck, plan A wasn't that well thought out either. In addition, Red/Green has problems solving things that aren't straight-forward. Once the option of blowing it up and then hitting it are exhausted, Red/Green starts to run out of options.
You are generalizing all colour pairs based on Ravnica guilds. Not all ( ) characters are fans of orgy-massacres. It is also about just enjoying life.
A LOT of her actions are fueled by hotheaded, instinctual and emotion-driven reactions and she often dislikes/hates authority as they tend to take away various freedoms from her.
Chandra is way too much of a rebellious person to be part of Boros or Iroas ( ) . Which is what Gideon is like. Soldiers, martial prowess, order, etc.
She also is not very Rakdos or Mogis ( ). Which is kind of known for sadistic pleasure, brutal maimings, wanton violence, etc.
She is not really an Izzet or Keranos person ( ) . Because she does not have the personality of Dack Fayden or Ral Zarak.
So where does that leave her? She would be right at home among the Gruul or maybe in one of Xenagos's revels if she was into that.
Quote from Gruuls Biggest Strengths and Weaknesses »
Red/Green's greatest strength is the force of its brutality. With nothing making it hold anything back, Red/Green packs a powerful punch. Even colors with answers to Red/Green often fall to the speed and raw power of Red/Green. To paraphrase a famous pro player (Dave Price): "There are wrong answers; there are never wrong threats."
Red/Green's greatest weakness is its complete lack of foresight or preparation. If Red/Green's Plan A doesn't work, Red/Green has problems because it didn't bother to come up with a Plan B. Heck, plan A wasn't that well thought out either. In addition, Red/Green has problems solving things that aren't straight-forward. Once the option of blowing it up and then hitting it are exhausted, Red/Green starts to run out of options.
You are generalizing all colour pairs based on Ravnica guilds. Not all ( ) characters are fans of orgy-massacres. It is also about just enjoying life.
I'm not oversimplifying , that is what it actually is. is hedonism at its core, it will destroy without thought or care as it does what it pleases. cares about its life and it also cares its fun. It lives day to day doing what it pleases and won't let pesky things like laws or morality get in its way. It wants the world to bend to its very whim and be unhindered while doing so.
Black has had good guys and bad guys, same with red. But together? Yeah no. That is the color combination that is always a villain's color. Because its strictly antagonistic in its nature to everything around it. In fact it wouldn't work well with the gatewatch with both someone like Gideon ( ) and Jace ( ) around as it would feel they cramp it's style.
I use the guilds/gods because they embody the ideals and weaknesses that their color combinations represent.
I agree, would have helped with the mystery element, since so many people already had eldrazi in their heads. At least it wasn't the plan at the start.
Again I agree would have been very interesting to see how she felt now in a group with no other elves, as well as what is hinted as a romance with a human.
IIRC that info was only in the video game she was made for so hoe canon that was to the main game is iffy.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
The problem was the horrible, horrendous, nauseating slop of hot mess that BFZ was that caused everyone to hate the Eldrazi and Zendikar, one of the most loved planes, which was also ruined to tell the story of the former. Innistrad was too loved to suffer the same fate, and to see the wrong focus being given again to not the plane, but the Eldrazi instead. By focusing on the wrong thing, the Eldrazi, so much and so little on Adventure World they choked the set with Eldrazi and Devoid crap and in the process, the story ended up having to literally TRASH Adventure World. The entire point of Zendikar is to be a lush, expansive and uncharted world of exploration. Many of its continents are not literally dust and most are compromised. BFZ did so much wrong by every metric that frankly, had SOI/EMN not been almost a complete redemption, I really think Innistrad might have fallen out of favor with players as well. Which comes to show what the wrong focus and poor mechanics and design can do to an otherwise loved and popular plane like Zendikar, and why I strongly feel the physical geography and theme of Kamigawa have potential where the cards and focus failed. Zendikar proved to be a 2 on the Rabiah scale, yet suffered greatly by all metrics because of BFZ - if it can, what of others?
Thankfully SOI/EMN did Eldrazi and Cosmic Horror layered over Gothic Horror exceptionally well. The only downside was murdering Avacyn, which compromised Innistrad's identity. But I can see now that it's the complete Horror World - cosmic and gothic alike - rather than pure gothic with a church contrast. I'd have preferred all three elements, but that's just me. Avacyn missing just skews too much of the world into a very linear, predictable trajectory with no breathing room or contrast.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Killing Avacyn was ssuuuuch a huge mistake. I know we'll return to the plane SOMEDAY due to how much people love it and the loose ends they left, so maybe they'll find a way to bring her back..? Maybe..? Hopeful wishes haha.
Also, on topic, how freaking AMAZING was the art for new Emrakul?! I'm still impressed, months later!
Bruna, Light of Alabaster | Karlov of the Ghost Council | Breya, Etherium Shaper | Marchesa, the Black Rose | Queen Marchesa | The Mimeoplasm | Avacyn, Angel of Hope |
Pauper:
Orzhov Nightsky Mimic
Frequent lurker and vorthos player
I never thought that. I just didn't like that SoI was right after BtZ. It would be have been best to wait until this year for SoI to come out.
Issue is with Avacyn around it would have been hard to find conflict. She is too powerful of a source for their to be any *big* conflict. It would end up being predictable since every Innistrad block would have to figure out why Avacyn couldn't just save the day. Heck, she was able to stop Emrakul from being able to fully manifest on the plane.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Well, Sigarda is still alive, but not as strong as Avacyn. So there's still an Angel around for the "Good Guys" to build their Church around, but she's not gonna be strong enough to keep someone like Emrakul from showing up.
But like 5colors said, apparently there was supposed to be a block between BfZ and SoI that got scrapped or shuffled to a later date, leaving us with two Eldrazi stories back-to-back, which left people feeling bored with the bloody things.
And I'll repeat my argument until I die: the Gatewatch should NOT have been able to kill the Eldrazi. The Titans had recieved too much build-up as a threat for "4 twenty something year olds" to credibly kill them. Defeat, like how the Fantastic Four have defeated or redirected Galactus, certainly, but not outright kill.
The only real issue I had with the main storyline so far is the BFZ block, where, as others have pointed out, the death of 2 of the Eldrazi titans at the hands of a fledgling team of 'Walkers felt pretty forced and unbefitting the Lovecraftian element upon which the Eldrazi were based. Had they resealed, deflected or done something else to preserve the plane without the titans' deaths I would have been more at ease. Sure, they explained how it happened, but not well, not well at all. I also found the battle scenes not particularly done well in that block, and as others have mentioned the recharactarization of Nissa was jarring and unnecessary, a slow development into the character they wanted her to be could have worked out really well but hand-waving always feels like cheating as far as narrative is concerned.
The other bocks have been better in my opinion and I always knew Emrakul was gonna make an appearance after seeing hints in SOI. I'm Not a fan of artifact worlds but I'll give Wizards credit- The world of Kaledesh is beautiful, despite my dislike of artifact themes as a whole.
What I've enjoyed the most so far is seeing how each member of the team contributes and clashes within the group as this what I believe makes these characters stand out-
Sure, The Gatewatch can be seen as unashamedly taking advantage from marketing success of Marvel's Avenger Cini Universe but tropes in and of themselves are not bad, It's how well they do these tropes that will determine its success. If people begin to weary of the ensemble theme then Creative needs to downplay or subvert the tropes that their story has most in common with the other franchises. If people are not tired of this theme, then they can continue the script while investing resources in creating marketable Unique and original concepts that ensure that theirproducts are pushing and leading the creative envelope instead of the other way around. Following the lead of other industries will always be safer but without innovation, no company can ensure their brand and products truly stand out, and with a Magic Movie on the way, the originality and boldness of their brand, along with enough familiarity or confidence that such will be liked, will be what decides whether the MTG Movie and associated brand flips or flops.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
(Sorry, off-topic)
The problem with replacing Avacyn with Sigarda, is simply that Sigarda can in no way, shape or form fill Avacyn's shoes. She's nowhere near as powerful, which in and of itself wouldn't necessarily be an insurmountable obstacle, except that the system of enchantments that propped up the Avacynian church is also gone. No more wards, no more Avacynian magic, nothing. Without Avacyn (and the great big ol pyramid of magic she was but the tip of) the entire church is a useless husk offering little more than pointless dogma.
It's not going to take the population long to realize that Sigarda simply CANNOT BE a replacement for Avacyn, and then what would be the point of carrying on the Avacynian tradition? People will HAVE to turn to other sources for protection against all the horrors of the plane. They'll HAVE to turn away from the church, which could only serve to weaken Sigarda's position even farther.
The only way I can see the church continuing to exist is shifting its focus away from the angels and towards the spirits (such as Saint Traft), but Sigarda then becomes a useless figure. She wouldn't even serve a purpose as a figure head, since many people are unlikely to keep putting their faith in an angel after what just happened anyway.
I imagine that will be a major theme for Innistrad 3.0. None of the remaining powers is strong enough any more to dominate. The church is still in a schism in 3 parts: Sigarda, the Order of St Traft, and the corrupt core ruled by Ormandhal. They are essentially in a "Game of Thrones" state with a bunch of powers fighting for dominance. Arlinn and her wolf-pack will protect some people as well. Then there is Olivia in her new position as Queen of the remaining vampires. The world is still filled with horrors, and maybe even some Eldrazi remainder, but no clear power to protect the people. This will definitely benefit the demons who will promise protection to exploit the weak and gain new sacrifices.
Also the power of Avacyn waxed and waned, she couldn't be "too powerful", she was always powerful enough to keep humans from being wiped out but not so powerful she could kill all of the monsters, that's how she was set up. It's how Innistrad existed in equilibrium for all those years.
That would be a natural role for Sorin to take on, really. He's wonderfully morally ambiguous without being as incomprehensibly powerful and alien as Ugin. Maybe someday, once he stops being stoned on Innistrad. I would imagine he would tire pretty quickly of the situation in which Nahiri left him, and which Olivia is no doubt enjoying.
Someone else mentioned this, but I would love to see a situation in which Garruk and the Gatewatch were forced to work together for some greater purpose.
Well, that position would have probably been filled by either Liliana (pretty self-explanatory) or Nissa (who was originally presented as an Elvish supremacist ("Nissa was first presented as as a proud nature-mage who believed that elves are the pinnacle race of the multiverse, and the Joraga the greatest of them all.") with ties to the elves of Lorwyn, and who dabbled in black mana ("Her planar travels took her to the sunny world of Lorwyn where elves thrived and ruled uncontested. There she met elves who fully embraced their role as the pinnacle of nature, using both life magic and its deadly shadow to assert their primacy. This encounter led Nissa to experiment with black mana on her own terms, in secret, using it to complement her own elvish teachings."), before that all got retconned). But Wizards unwillingness to keep those traits leave the groups interactions feeling a bit... toothless.
Not really. Most antiheroes tend to be incredibly generic and unexciting, edgy for the sake of it.
That is true. Karn's spark made him immune to the oil and it was only when he lost it during Time Spiral that he became infected (apparently he had been licking the oil to other worlds he had visited without realising it.) When Venser gave him his own spark Karn was instantly healed. Its also probably the reason Koth has not been infected by the oil, though I suppose if the phyrexians compleated him through the more traditional means he would lose his spark.
UBarrin, Master WizardU
USticher GeralfU
UIxidor, Reality SculptorU
UWNoyan Dar, Roil ShaperUW
Right?! The fact they're trying to retcon that is so ridiculous. That alone is what made Nissa so interesting. She went from an actual racist, to realizing her ways of thinking were wrong, and (if they hadn't tried messing with it) would eventually lead to her joining the Gatewatch, where she'd be helping people from other planes (and races), and working alongside people of a different race than her! It would mean such huge important character development, and something we could admire and believe in. When you take her entire backstory and retcon it, she literally just becomes another boring token green mana character..
Bruna, Light of Alabaster | Karlov of the Ghost Council | Breya, Etherium Shaper | Marchesa, the Black Rose | Queen Marchesa | The Mimeoplasm | Avacyn, Angel of Hope |
Pauper:
Orzhov Nightsky Mimic
Frequent lurker and vorthos player
Agreed. Supremacist Nissa and her integration into the Gatewatch could have had so much potential. It's a crying shame.
Agreed! Apart from not particularly liking the majority of the Gatewatch characters, I firmly believe that color shifts are the best way to show character growth and make characters interesting. Not that mono colored characters can't be interesting, but when a character just so typically embodies what they're supposed to represent, it's just predictable and boring. Had we gotten a green/black version of a young Nissa in Origins, I would've loved it! This is in part why Ajani is one of my favorite planeawalkers. He's grown as a character and his cards and color shifts in his cards show it. He's gone from being a shunned member of his pride, to an angry and vengeful warrior, to a leader and mentor. That's been in the past 4-5(?) years of in universe time? Sarkhan, too, has shown character growth, emphasized by his color shifts - each card representing a new outlook, but still being the same dragon obsessed character. I understand the need to start with and make sure all 5 colors were represented, but as we get more characters I really do hope to see color shifts among the origins 5. That, or to see them replaced and/or killed off.
... what do you think the Gatewatch characters personalities would have been if they were all multicolored? Like...
W/g Gideon?
U/w Jace?
B/r Liliana?
R/u Chandra?
G/b Nissa?
Gideon: W -> WR
Jace: U -> UW
Liliana: B -> BU
Chandra: R -> RW
Nissa: G -> GB
Note that I'm basing this purely on their characterizations, both past and present, as their power sets are all firmly mono-colors.
Chandra is way too much of a rebellious person to be part of Boros or Iroas ( ) . Which is what Gideon is like. Soldiers, martial prowess, order, etc.
She also is not very Rakdos or Mogis ( ). Which is kind of known for sadistic pleasure, brutal maimings, wanton violence, etc.
She is not really an Izzet or Keranos person ( ) . Because she does not have the personality of Dack Fayden or Ral Zarak.
So where does that leave her? She would be right at home among the Gruul or maybe in one of Xenagos's revels if she was into that.
Probably. My orignal post putting her in ( ) was mostly pigeonholing for the sake of color balance (though I do seem to recall Chandra being a little grabby with tings that weren't hers...Fuel for the Fire?), and she'd more than likely be ( ) or ( ). Though, now that I think about it, Ajani not being WRG strikes me as a little weird; last I remember, he was becoming something of an iconoclast on Theros, wich sounds VERY R.
To further expand, consider the Gatewatch itself. It is a community of people that share common goals and interests. Chandra likes being with these other people even if she does butt heads with Jace or Gideon on matters. They, the gatewatch, are in a sense, Chandra's friends and family and that is how she does view them.
Ajani being WRG makes sense. His is a very Naya way of thinking. He doesn't mind the worship so much as he dislikes how the gods try to control the mortals and he dislikes how cruel they can be if the mortals don't gel with a god's intentions.
You are generalizing all colour pairs based on Ravnica guilds. Not all ( ) characters are fans of orgy-massacres. It is also about just enjoying life.
I'm not oversimplifying , that is what it actually is. is hedonism at its core, it will destroy without thought or care as it does what it pleases. cares about its life and it also cares its fun. It lives day to day doing what it pleases and won't let pesky things like laws or morality get in its way. It wants the world to bend to its very whim and be unhindered while doing so.
Black has had good guys and bad guys, same with red. But together? Yeah no. That is the color combination that is always a villain's color. Because its strictly antagonistic in its nature to everything around it. In fact it wouldn't work well with the gatewatch with both someone like Gideon ( ) and Jace ( ) around as it would feel they cramp it's style.
I use the guilds/gods because they embody the ideals and weaknesses that their color combinations represent.
They care about the law when breaking it means they dont get what they want. They care about what they want, but part of that is the ones they love.