I don't think Heliod is actually a villain. Considering Xenagos becoming an illegitimate god and causing a lot of damage and suffering on Theros, Elspeth killing Daxos (which was Xenagos confusing her, but still), Ashiok attacking Iretis and messing with Ephara's dreams, Dack stealing a gauntlet and Kiora stealing Dekella, you really can't blame Heliod for killing planes walkers. Especially when his information about them likely comes from Phenax.
Yea. I don't see Heliod as a badguy(a Jerk sure but not evil. He is after all the white only god). Plus considering he doesn't know much about Planeswalkers, he might have thought Elspeth would try and either take his place or become another god which would cause chaos like Xenagos did. Keep in mind Xenagos caused chaos by simply becoming a nyxborn.
Not to mention when Kruphex saw glimpses of Nicol Bolas and realized how powerful the elder dragon is that caused him to be-afraid. Considering that Kruphex would have likely told Heliod about Nicol Bolas. It makes some sense that he might have killed Elspeth.
Moreover there is this fun line from the wiki: It is implied that Heliod's personality, like most of the gods', changes in accordance to mortal beliefs.
So perhaps Heliod changes following more encounters with Planeswalkers. Would like to see more of the postive aspects of both Zeus in the Myths as well as the color white in Magic shown with Heliod.
No, Heliod is definitely a villain and that is a good thing. White doesn't have many villains although it has as many negative aspects as the other colors (it is the color of Fascism and Totalitarism for example) and should not be seen as the "good" color. Heliod attacked Elspeth just because she had Purphoros sword (without asking questions) and then tried to use her as his champion when she was able to deflect his unprovoked attack. He constantly tries to put himself as the top god of Theros pantheon (when in reality Kruphix would be the closest to actually being it) and creates nearly as much conflict in doing so as Xenagos was able to do over the whole story. Kruphix definitely didn't tell anyone except his oracle of the multiversal dangers and Heliod killed Elspeth because he feared that with her having knowledge unaccessible to him she was somehow challenging his "rule" (if I remember correctly he even says that she was "too much like the Satyr" in his eyes, meaning she knows too much in his opinion). She helped him defeat Xenagos and for the simple fact that she had potential he didn't understand and without showing any kind of gratitude for her help Heliod stabbed her in the back. You can't get much more obviously villanous than that. White has enough good character, what it needs are villains like Heliod.
Hear, hear.
It's a mistake for people to think that white=good, or that someone can't be evil/bad/villainous because they have a white color identity.
White values community (and order) above all else, and will absolutely oppress the f*** out of the individual to achieve that goal. More than that, there's nothing even saying that white cares about what is factually better for the community, only what white believes is better.
White is very much a "For your own good" color, and we've long since learned to be wary of that statement.
Agreed, and actually, I'm pretty sure white has had the most high profile villains (or at least antagonists) than any other color. Off the top of my head I'd include Heliod, Nahiri, Elesh Norn, Takeshi Konda, and now Dovin Baan.
Kynaios and Tiro, Sidar Kondo, Reyhan, all these three characters have been dead (Some of them even died thousands of years ago) in the main storyline, that's why they appeared in Commander but not in the main sets. While does that mean Urza also could be printed into real planeswalker card in future Commander sets? I have a strong feeling that we'll see him in three years.
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Kynaios and Tiro, Sidar Kondo, Reyhan, all these three characters have been dead (Some of them even died thousands of years ago) in the main storyline, that's why they appeared in Commander but not in the main sets. While does that mean Urza also could be printed into real planeswalker card in future Commander sets? I have a strong feeling that we'll see him in three years.
Well we got a Freyalise planeswalker card via Commander, and she's dead isn't she? I suppose in theory it's possible to get an Urza card. I don't see how WotC could possibly make a (balanced and printable) card for him that would measure up to the players' expectations if they ever did decide to print him though, so it might just be better off if they don't.
Let's talk actual lore! Breya's story blurb says this:
The Esper shard of Alara is driven by the "Noble Work," an effort to augment all living things with an aether-infused alloy called etherium. Esperites believed Alara's etherium supply was finite because no one could create it, but Breya has proven them wrong. While exploring Jund, Breya discovered carmot, a red stone necessary for creating etherium that didn't exist on Esper. To prove her achievement, Breya replaced the majority of her organic body with etherium she created herself. Soon after, Breya realized that the wild magic of Jund had influenced her metal, granting her powerful new abilities.
This is effectively a stealth retcon of Test of Metal, right? We already suspected with Kaladesh, but in Test of Metal Tezzeret IS the Carmot, and this seemingly contradicts the whole 'planeswalkers as the Carmot' thing, right?
If someone had asked anyone to design a Reyhan card you could bet your right arm that 99% of all people would have gone for -at the very least- a partially white card, but most likely BGW. That is because she was the leader of the Abzan. It's a pattern that is so ingrained in Magic, that the leaders of a certain faction have all the colours of that faction. All of the Khan cards match their clan's identity, as do the dragons and their broods. Then there's the guilds, the shards of Alara. The list goes on. This Reyhan card not only goes against player expectations, but even worse, it does it for no good reason. Reyhan wasn't designed to be Reyhan. Her name was simply slapped on a card that was clearly not intended to be Reyhan from the beginning.
There are two ways to make a character fit to a card: Justifications and reasons. Justifications come after the card is made. ("Okay so Reyhan isn't white, but it's because she's a rebel!") While reasons come before. ("Which colours would Reyhan be? Well, considering she's the khan of literally the last true Abzan, BGW seems to be the most fitting.") Personally, I want to see legendary creature cards designed with a reason, not have them justified retroactively.
Fair enough - I definitely can see your point, and understand why you are disappointed...
But Reyhan was never the true leader of the Abzan, at least how they used to be. The Abzan ceased to be when Daghatar bent knee to Dromoka. Reyhan was the leader of a splinter faction, and was barely recognized as a Khan by the others - and only then because they needed her. Flavorfully, BG still fits. And she can still pilot an Abzan deck, she just needs a WB or WG partner.
As for Reyhan, she was clearly designed with Abzan in mind. She's incomplete... as she should be.
...But I happen to agree with these assessments more. But while I might disagree about Reyhan, I completely agree with you and everyone else complaining about Ludevic.
I don't see why anyone is pissed at Ludevic being Blue/Red. Necro-alchemists are pretty strongly Blue, there's plenty of Red spells associated to them, and several of the innistrad decks involve zombies in combinations beyond Blue/Black. Frankly, I'm glad that they went this direction, it was a very pleasant surprise (though personally I was expeting Ludevic to be Green/Blue).
If i was making Ludevic, I would have him in the grixis colors: blue, red, and black. They make far more sense for the mad scientist necro-alchemist that he is.
Here... I can see why they went they way they did, and there is indeed some cleverness in the concept. (And understand the desire to keep Ludevic distinct from Geralf and Gisa.) My problem is that Ludevic's card concept isn't intuitive. Nothing about his card screams "Necro-Alchemist". Even a fairly knowledgeable Vorthos would expect Ludevic to interact with the graveyard in some fashion or at least 'create monsters' somehow, as the cards that quote him almost always deal with reanimated creatures or horrible monstrosities. Would anyone here designing Ludevic in a vacuum have started with the top-down traits of "Reclusive" and "Makes Others Do His Dirty Work" instead of "Master Monster Maker"? (I think my platonic ideal for Ludevic would have been either BUR(as Herkles) suggests) or URG, but that is just me.) Reyhan's card concept and mechanical link I could grok just by looking at the card; the fact that the article had to explain what Ludevic's card is trying to convey seems like a huge flavor fail to me.
As an aside: I have absolutely nothing against "story-less one-off characters that will never get expanded on". Not only do they make the Multiverse feel bigger, but they also fill a very important niche: Not everyone is a Vorthos, moreover, not everyone wants to replay the lore. Some people want to make up their own stories. Who is Ghave and what does he do? We only got the barest hint of his character in his blurb and that gets some people's imaginations rolling. Some want to make up their own stories. "Zero lore" characters fill that particular niche, especially for commander, where you actually have a face for your deck.
I also agree, provided they give us some story tidbits to go with the new characters. I love having glimpses of entirely new worlds, or little-known worlds like Valla or Ir. I think my ideal would be about 50/50 new characters and old characters still lacking cards.
Sorry for being late to the "Ludevic fails" complains, but I'm actually quite annoyed that Ludevic isn't black, not because he's a necro-alchemist, but because his true defining trait is his reclusiveness (seriously how many times did Geralf even meet him, let alone everyone else?) Reclusiveness was a B trait on Innistrad. I could tell they wanted to convey that through his ability, but they even botched that up (instead of "Don't bother Ludevic", everyone reads it as "Hurt yourself and get rewarded").
I don't think Heliod is actually a villain. Considering Xenagos becoming an illegitimate god and causing a lot of damage and suffering on Theros, Elspeth killing Daxos (which was Xenagos confusing her, but still), Ashiok attacking Iretis and messing with Ephara's dreams, Dack stealing a gauntlet and Kiora stealing Dekella, you really can't blame Heliod for killing planes walkers. Especially when his information about them likely comes from Phenax.
I wouldn't mind an Agnomakhos card as well. Theros has so many legends that need cards IMO. Iris, Oracle of Ephara, Arixmethes, Adresteia (one of the Fates), Callaphe… list goes on!
He waged a war against Purphoros because the latter didn't bow to him, and did plety of petty and dickish things in Godsend.
Yea. I don't see Heliod as a badguy(a Jerk sure but not evil. He is after all the white only god).
White =/= good. Seriously, how many more petty attrocities Elesh Norn, Heliod, Ojutai and others have to commit until people get this? It's kind of borderlinely delusional right now.
Let's talk actual lore! Breya's story blurb says this:
The Esper shard of Alara is driven by the "Noble Work," an effort to augment all living things with an aether-infused alloy called etherium. Esperites believed Alara's etherium supply was finite because no one could create it, but Breya has proven them wrong. While exploring Jund, Breya discovered carmot, a red stone necessary for creating etherium that didn't exist on Esper. To prove her achievement, Breya replaced the majority of her organic body with etherium she created herself. Soon after, Breya realized that the wild magic of Jund had influenced her metal, granting her powerful new abilities.
This is effectively a stealth retcon of Test of Metal, right? We already suspected with Kaladesh, but in Test of Metal Tezzeret IS the Carmot, and this seemingly contradicts the whole 'planeswalkers as the Carmot' thing, right?
Consider this timeline one of the millions of timelines that Tezzeret never did the events in Test of Metal than a true ret-con.
Let's talk actual lore! Breya's story blurb says this:
The Esper shard of Alara is driven by the "Noble Work," an effort to augment all living things with an aether-infused alloy called etherium. Esperites believed Alara's etherium supply was finite because no one could create it, but Breya has proven them wrong. While exploring Jund, Breya discovered carmot, a red stone necessary for creating etherium that didn't exist on Esper. To prove her achievement, Breya replaced the majority of her organic body with etherium she created herself. Soon after, Breya realized that the wild magic of Jund had influenced her metal, granting her powerful new abilities.
This is effectively a stealth retcon of Test of Metal, right? We already suspected with Kaladesh, but in Test of Metal Tezzeret IS the Carmot, and this seemingly contradicts the whole 'planeswalkers as the Carmot' thing, right?
It seems wizards has confused their own lore(a depressingly common occurrence). What they describe is Sangrite, which was a key component of Etherium along with Carmot. I only vaguely remember Test of Metal, but I don't recall anything about 'planeswalkers as the Carmot'. I know Tezzert answered he was the carmot then jabbed a piece of sangrite into his eye creating etherium in front of Bolas. As far as I recall it was only a special property of the Sphinx planeswalker Crucius and by extension Tezzeret, not all planeswalkers. I vaguely remember Tezz saying as much to Bolas, will check tonight.
I don't think Heliod is actually a villain. Considering Xenagos becoming an illegitimate god and causing a lot of damage and suffering on Theros, Elspeth killing Daxos (which was Xenagos confusing her, but still), Ashiok attacking Iretis and messing with Ephara's dreams, Dack stealing a gauntlet and Kiora stealing Dekella, you really can't blame Heliod for killing planes walkers. Especially when his information about them likely comes from Phenax.
I wouldn't mind an Agnomakhos card as well. Theros has so many legends that need cards IMO. Iris, Oracle of Ephara, Arixmethes, Adresteia (one of the Fates), Callaphe… list goes on!
He waged a war against Purphoros because the latter didn't bow to him, and did plety of petty and dickish things in Godsend.
I'll give you that. But he also destroyed Godsend instead of ruling the pantheon with it like he could have. Heliod genuinely believes being the King of the gods is in the best interest of Theros. But he'll do it the legitimate way. Earning devotion and admiration enough to acquire the title. The Theros gods all do petty things. They're MTG Greek gods after all. Thassa went from trying to inundate Meletis to helping Elspeth on her quest. They're just all about themselves and having power. Granted Heliod oversteps that by trying to rule them, as even Thassa doesn't take matters that far.
Let's talk actual lore! Breya's story blurb says this:
The Esper shard of Alara is driven by the "Noble Work," an effort to augment all living things with an aether-infused alloy called etherium. Esperites believed Alara's etherium supply was finite because no one could create it, but Breya has proven them wrong. While exploring Jund, Breya discovered carmot, a red stone necessary for creating etherium that didn't exist on Esper. To prove her achievement, Breya replaced the majority of her organic body with etherium she created herself. Soon after, Breya realized that the wild magic of Jund had influenced her metal, granting her powerful new abilities.
This is effectively a stealth retcon of Test of Metal, right? We already suspected with Kaladesh, but in Test of Metal Tezzeret IS the Carmot, and this seemingly contradicts the whole 'planeswalkers as the Carmot' thing, right?
I had forgotten about that scene in Test of Metal where Tezz says he is the Carmot.
I had always thought Creative hinted that the carmot of Esper and the sangrite of Jund were the same by sprinkling references throughout the block. I can't remember if it was in Planeswalker's Guides or in flavor text, but I thought that Esper saw carmot as the ancient remains of extinct beasts, all but describing dragons. And unknown to them, dragons still lived on Jund. From the Jund perspective, we learned that sangrite formed from dragon's blood, and the descriptions matched those of carmot. So we the audience could infer them to be one the same, while waiting to see if the characters would ever figure it out in and after Alara Reborn.
I don't think Heliod is actually a villain. Considering Xenagos becoming an illegitimate god and causing a lot of damage and suffering on Theros, Elspeth killing Daxos (which was Xenagos confusing her, but still), Ashiok attacking Iretis and messing with Ephara's dreams, Dack stealing a gauntlet and Kiora stealing Dekella, you really can't blame Heliod for killing planes walkers. Especially when his information about them likely comes from Phenax.
I wouldn't mind an Agnomakhos card as well. Theros has so many legends that need cards IMO. Iris, Oracle of Ephara, Arixmethes, Adresteia (one of the Fates), Callaphe… list goes on!
He waged a war against Purphoros because the latter didn't bow to him, and did plety of petty and dickish things in Godsend.
I'll give you that. But he also destroyed Godsend instead of ruling the pantheon with it like he could have. Heliod genuinely believes being the King of the gods is in the best interest of Theros. But he'll do it the legitimate way. Earning devotion and admiration enough to acquire the title. The Theros gods all do petty things. They're MTG Greek gods after all. Thassa went from trying to inundate Meletis to helping Elspeth on her quest. They're just all about themselves and having power. Granted Heliod oversteps that by trying to rule them, as even Thassa doesn't take matters that far.
Or deemed the risk of backfiring too great. It slipped out of Purphoros' hands the first time, after all.
He's not really portrayed as anything other than a highly impulsive, selfish ****** in Godsend. He's kind of Baral 0.1, except without even the remnants of something that could imply civic concern.
Or deemed the risk of backfiring too great. It slipped out of Purphoros' hands the first time, after all.
He's not really portrayed as anything other than a highly impulsive, selfish ****** in Godsend. He's kind of Baral 0.1, except without even the remnants of something that could imply civic concern.
I never read Godsend or any of the E-books. However assuming he is meant to be a villian that doesn't strike me as a White thing. Yes, white=/= but white is about the good of the community, law, order, justice and all that jazz; all of which are the things he is god of in Theros, and more. I assume that as ruler of the Theros gods, he considers all of theros to be his community to protect, have law and order. He should have civic concerns. Pure selfishness is something I regard as a black trait, not a white trait.
Anyways I assume that they will explore more of Heliod as a character regardless of role he plays when ever they get back to Theros. All the legendaries from Theros do make me excited to return there.
Or deemed the risk of backfiring too great. It slipped out of Purphoros' hands the first time, after all.
He's not really portrayed as anything other than a highly impulsive, selfish ****** in Godsend. He's kind of Baral 0.1, except without even the remnants of something that could imply civic concern.
I never read Godsend or any of the E-books. However assuming he is meant to be a villian that doesn't strike me as a White thing. Yes, white=/= but white is about the good of the community, law, order, justice and all that jazz; all of which are the things he is god of in Theros, and more. I assume that as ruler of the Theros gods, he considers all of theros to be his community to protect, have law and order. He should have civic concerns. Pure selfishness is something I regard as a black trait, not a white trait.
Anyways I assume that they will explore more of Heliod as a character regardless of role he plays when ever they get back to Theros. All the legendaries from Theros do make me excited to return there.
White isn't necessarily about community, white is about order. Heliod believes himself king of the gods, and he's arrogant - not selfish. An important difference.
Or deemed the risk of backfiring too great. It slipped out of Purphoros' hands the first time, after all.
He's not really portrayed as anything other than a highly impulsive, selfish ****** in Godsend. He's kind of Baral 0.1, except without even the remnants of something that could imply civic concern.
I never read Godsend or any of the E-books. However assuming he is meant to be a villian that doesn't strike me as a White thing. Yes, white=/= but white is about the good of the community, law, order, justice and all that jazz; all of which are the things he is god of in Theros, and more. I assume that as ruler of the Theros gods, he considers all of theros to be his community to protect, have law and order. He should have civic concerns. Pure selfishness is something I regard as a black trait, not a white trait.
Anyways I assume that they will explore more of Heliod as a character regardless of role he plays when ever they get back to Theros. All the legendaries from Theros do make me excited to return there.
*facepalm so much tht my head went supernova*
First off, White's villainous aspects have been enchanced and demonstrated countless times. I could point to the fact that the current leader of a civilisation of machine-zombies that violate every sapient rights known (Elesh Norn), a genocidal manic planeswalker (Nahiri), what amounts to Ravnica's mafia, Tianmeng Revolution, police brutality and corrupt government (Orzhov, Selesnya, Boros and Azorius) and, of course, of of the most classical MTG villains (Konda) are all predominantly White.
But then I realised we're talking about a specific case that shouldn't even be justified: outright tyranny, waging wars out of petty reasons, genocide and callous and taunting murder of the person who save his world. Heliod is Magic's Zeus, and he is catching up to the mythological bastards in terms of what wordly suffering he will cause.
Ssecond, literally none of theose things prevent villainy:
- Community: rabid mobs, societal complacency if not advocacy for the rstrictions of freedoms, et cetera.
- Law: Opression. Do I even need to say anything?
- Justice: vigilantism, genocide kangaroo courts
All of these things have been very frequently incorporated in villainous characters, and ae inherently White in nature.
Heliod is indeed extreme White philosophy which in many respects can be considered villainous. He is also arrogant, but this only exacerbates his situation, it doesn't make him a villain outright. Regardless, with the information he has it's understandable why he would have killed Elspeth and would be hostile toward Planeswalkers. That in itself wouldn't make him a villain. Frankly, even fighting to be king of the gods could be reasoned to be a delusional attempt to do the best for Theros. Throughout Godsend, Heliod did have the genuine best interest of Theros at heart. Whether his intentions were noble or for the sake of preserving a kingdom to serve as his throne is debatable. Wanting to be king is valid reasoning to consider him bad. Killing Elspeth… not so much IMO. She even set herself up for it, although we did learn this point was negligible. That said, I do suspect she had a reason for phrasing her ordeal reward the way she did, having learned about the Returned before. I suspect the situation of the Returned in general may be resolved completely in Theros 2.0.
Sorry for being late to the "Ludevic fails" complains, but I'm actually quite annoyed that Ludevic isn't black, not because he's a necro-alchemist, but because his true defining trait is his reclusiveness (seriously how many times did Geralf even meet him, let alone everyone else?) Reclusiveness was a B trait on Innistrad. I could tell they wanted to convey that through his ability, but they even botched that up (instead of "Don't bother Ludevic", everyone reads it as "Hurt yourself and get rewarded").
Well, I suppose it is both a B and/or G trait, the actual color depends on what are your other properties align to (and I think it's safe to think Ludevic is generally more , considering his few connections, even if he did create Lupine Prototype). People weren't wrong in saying it's wasted that he's not the UBRG Commander though.
Heliod is indeed extreme White philosophy which in many respects can be considered villainous. He is also arrogant, but this only exacerbates his situation, it doesn't make him a villain outright. Regardless, with the information he has it's understandable why he would have killed Elspeth and would be hostile toward Planeswalkers. That in itself wouldn't make him a villain. Frankly, even fighting to be king of the gods could be reasoned to be a delusional attempt to do the best for Theros. Throughout Godsend, Heliod did have the genuine best interest of Theros at heart. Whether his intentions were noble or for the sake of preserving a kingdom to serve as his throne is debatable. Wanting to be king is valid reasoning to consider him bad. Killing Elspeth… not so much IMO. She even set herself up for it, although we did learn this point was negligible. That said, I do suspect she had a reason for phrasing her ordeal reward the way she did, having learned about the Returned before. I suspect the situation of the Returned in general may be resolved completely in Theros 2.0.
doing bad things for a good cause can still make you a villain though. just because he is doing what he thinks is best for Theros, doesn't preclude it from being evil. Hitler thought that what he was doing was best for Germany.
and specifically killing Elspeth DOES make him evil: he straight up murdered an innocent person. he murdered her on the grounds that she might maybe do something bad in the future, but since she had done nothing and had not attempted to do anything, it was murder.
Heliod is indeed extreme White philosophy which in many respects can be considered villainous. He is also arrogant, but this only exacerbates his situation, it doesn't make him a villain outright. Regardless, with the information he has it's understandable why he would have killed Elspeth and would be hostile toward Planeswalkers. That in itself wouldn't make him a villain. Frankly, even fighting to be king of the gods could be reasoned to be a delusional attempt to do the best for Theros. Throughout Godsend, Heliod did have the genuine best interest of Theros at heart. Whether his intentions were noble or for the sake of preserving a kingdom to serve as his throne is debatable. Wanting to be king is valid reasoning to consider him bad. Killing Elspeth… not so much IMO. She even set herself up for it, although we did learn this point was negligible. That said, I do suspect she had a reason for phrasing her ordeal reward the way she did, having learned about the Returned before. I suspect the situation of the Returned in general may be resolved completely in Theros 2.0.
You mustn't be reading the Godsend the rest of us got. In it he constantly procalims himself "the greatest of these", throws hissy fits at those who challenge his authority, and is unconcerned with the deaths of his followers.
He also makes multiple attempts t Elspeth's life, long before she's given him any reaosn to.
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• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Yep! Changed my name from Jenrik to Tiro when he finally answered. Granted I'm still a dead character, but at least one that died of natural causes. And hey, there's an Underworld on Theros (alright there are geists on Innistrad but you know what I mean). I've been wanting to be a Theros character for a while now and finally there's one that fits the bill for me!
I could get picky and ask which left and which right - theirs or ours? But I feel like the one holding the helmets is Tiro and the one without the helmet is Kynaios.
Ok, this discussion about Heliod is kinda getting out of hand. Shouldn't we be talking about the new legendaries?
Personally, I think Thrasios' card doesn't work very well as a portrayal of a 'hero', more like a scholar or explorer. In fact, I would have much rather seen the famous Fblthp as the character with those effects. He's a groundskeeper for the Azorius, so it fits. Also, how can you give Bruse a card and not that little guy?
Agreed, and actually, I'm pretty sure white has had the most high profile villains (or at least antagonists) than any other color. Off the top of my head I'd include Heliod, Nahiri, Elesh Norn, Takeshi Konda, and now Dovin Baan.
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Well we got a Freyalise planeswalker card via Commander, and she's dead isn't she? I suppose in theory it's possible to get an Urza card. I don't see how WotC could possibly make a (balanced and printable) card for him that would measure up to the players' expectations if they ever did decide to print him though, so it might just be better off if they don't.
This is effectively a stealth retcon of Test of Metal, right? We already suspected with Kaladesh, but in Test of Metal Tezzeret IS the Carmot, and this seemingly contradicts the whole 'planeswalkers as the Carmot' thing, right?
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Fair enough - I definitely can see your point, and understand why you are disappointed...
...But I happen to agree with these assessments more. But while I might disagree about Reyhan, I completely agree with you and everyone else complaining about Ludevic.
Here... I can see why they went they way they did, and there is indeed some cleverness in the concept. (And understand the desire to keep Ludevic distinct from Geralf and Gisa.) My problem is that Ludevic's card concept isn't intuitive. Nothing about his card screams "Necro-Alchemist". Even a fairly knowledgeable Vorthos would expect Ludevic to interact with the graveyard in some fashion or at least 'create monsters' somehow, as the cards that quote him almost always deal with reanimated creatures or horrible monstrosities. Would anyone here designing Ludevic in a vacuum have started with the top-down traits of "Reclusive" and "Makes Others Do His Dirty Work" instead of "Master Monster Maker"? (I think my platonic ideal for Ludevic would have been either BUR(as Herkles) suggests) or URG, but that is just me.) Reyhan's card concept and mechanical link I could grok just by looking at the card; the fact that the article had to explain what Ludevic's card is trying to convey seems like a huge flavor fail to me.
Completely agree.
I also agree, provided they give us some story tidbits to go with the new characters. I love having glimpses of entirely new worlds, or little-known worlds like Valla or Ir. I think my ideal would be about 50/50 new characters and old characters still lacking cards.
Isn't "leave me alone" a green trait?
He waged a war against Purphoros because the latter didn't bow to him, and did plety of petty and dickish things in Godsend.
White =/= good. Seriously, how many more petty attrocities Elesh Norn, Heliod, Ojutai and others have to commit until people get this? It's kind of borderlinely delusional right now.
Consider this timeline one of the millions of timelines that Tezzeret never did the events in Test of Metal than a true ret-con.
"Kiora is the Aquaman of planeswalkers."
"Useless and everyone pretends to like her?"
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I had forgotten about that scene in Test of Metal where Tezz says he is the Carmot.
I had always thought Creative hinted that the carmot of Esper and the sangrite of Jund were the same by sprinkling references throughout the block. I can't remember if it was in Planeswalker's Guides or in flavor text, but I thought that Esper saw carmot as the ancient remains of extinct beasts, all but describing dragons. And unknown to them, dragons still lived on Jund. From the Jund perspective, we learned that sangrite formed from dragon's blood, and the descriptions matched those of carmot. So we the audience could infer them to be one the same, while waiting to see if the characters would ever figure it out in and after Alara Reborn.
At least that's how I remembered it.
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
Or deemed the risk of backfiring too great. It slipped out of Purphoros' hands the first time, after all.
He's not really portrayed as anything other than a highly impulsive, selfish ****** in Godsend. He's kind of Baral 0.1, except without even the remnants of something that could imply civic concern.
I never read Godsend or any of the E-books. However assuming he is meant to be a villian that doesn't strike me as a White thing. Yes, white=/= but white is about the good of the community, law, order, justice and all that jazz; all of which are the things he is god of in Theros, and more. I assume that as ruler of the Theros gods, he considers all of theros to be his community to protect, have law and order. He should have civic concerns. Pure selfishness is something I regard as a black trait, not a white trait.
Anyways I assume that they will explore more of Heliod as a character regardless of role he plays when ever they get back to Theros. All the legendaries from Theros do make me excited to return there.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
*facepalm so much tht my head went supernova*
First off, White's villainous aspects have been enchanced and demonstrated countless times. I could point to the fact that the current leader of a civilisation of machine-zombies that violate every sapient rights known (Elesh Norn), a genocidal manic planeswalker (Nahiri), what amounts to Ravnica's mafia, Tianmeng Revolution, police brutality and corrupt government (Orzhov, Selesnya, Boros and Azorius) and, of course, of of the most classical MTG villains (Konda) are all predominantly White.
But then I realised we're talking about a specific case that shouldn't even be justified: outright tyranny, waging wars out of petty reasons, genocide and callous and taunting murder of the person who save his world. Heliod is Magic's Zeus, and he is catching up to the mythological bastards in terms of what wordly suffering he will cause.
Ssecond, literally none of theose things prevent villainy:
- Community: rabid mobs, societal complacency if not advocacy for the rstrictions of freedoms, et cetera.
- Law: Opression. Do I even need to say anything?
- Justice: vigilantism, genocide kangaroo courts
All of these things have been very frequently incorporated in villainous characters, and ae inherently White in nature.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Well, I suppose it is both a B and/or G trait, the actual color depends on what are your other properties align to (and I think it's safe to think Ludevic is generally more , considering his few connections, even if he did create Lupine Prototype). People weren't wrong in saying it's wasted that he's not the UBRG Commander though.
doing bad things for a good cause can still make you a villain though. just because he is doing what he thinks is best for Theros, doesn't preclude it from being evil. Hitler thought that what he was doing was best for Germany.
and specifically killing Elspeth DOES make him evil: he straight up murdered an innocent person. he murdered her on the grounds that she might maybe do something bad in the future, but since she had done nothing and had not attempted to do anything, it was murder.
You mustn't be reading the Godsend the rest of us got. In it he constantly procalims himself "the greatest of these", throws hissy fits at those who challenge his authority, and is unconcerned with the deaths of his followers.
He also makes multiple attempts t Elspeth's life, long before she's given him any reaosn to.
I'm just a guest (usually lurker) here in the Storyline section, and I know Maro isn't the best source on story matters, but he said this:
(source)
Apologies if this had already been stated before.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
I could get picky and ask which left and which right - theirs or ours? But I feel like the one holding the helmets is Tiro and the one without the helmet is Kynaios.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Personally, I think Thrasios' card doesn't work very well as a portrayal of a 'hero', more like a scholar or explorer. In fact, I would have much rather seen the famous Fblthp as the character with those effects. He's a groundskeeper for the Azorius, so it fits. Also, how can you give Bruse a card and not that little guy?