It's bad enough a single mortal elf commanded the entire leyline network of an entire massive plane like Zendikar herself. That's a feat I would expect from Nylea on Theros, yes. Of an Oldwalker, yes. But not a planeswalker now. What Nissa did to Kefnet is an embarrassment to the lore. And here I was expecting some wise conversation between Nissa and Kefnet which would lead to revelations to Nissa relative to her experience with the Eldrazi on Zendikar, revelations that are so insightful she is compelled to a journey of knowledge very different from her own to uncover lost truths.
Glad it wasn't that and we got "PWs can do anything, and Nissa is so great she's the god here! Yay, Gatewatch!" And "gods aren't anything special like PWs are, they're just leylines." No wonder no one cares about Amonkhet's gods like we all did for Theros. The whole time it's been about why PWs are superior to them, starting with Bolas. And yeah, that is lame. But it should only have been Bolas in that position.
The sad part is, we've had Bolas built up as this major villain. And a lot of odds have been stacked against the Gatewatch winning. I wonder where we've seen this situation before? Oh right, the Eldrazi. And in a story where Eldrazi are Deus Ex Machina'ed and gods are instantaneously rewired like chess pieces and surral back and forth solves all your problems, I wonder how seriously we can bother to take anything?
I'm really NOT looking forward to the Gatewatch on Theros. The theft of Thassa's Bident I could excuse as it was an overwhelmingly lucky and narrow situation of extreme chance. But we just know Marketing: The Gathering is just going to set out and prove that Planeswalkers are the real gods and stars on Theros, not its actual gods (unlike in Greek mythology, the source material for Theros) and that's just garbage. Especially since it'll be Gatewatch garbage all over again.
It's bad enough a single mortal elf commanded the entire leyline network of an entire massive plane like Zendikar herself. That's a feat I would expect from Nylea on Theros, yes. Of an Oldwalker, yes. But not a planeswalker now. What Nissa did to Kefnet is an embarrassment to the lore. And here I was expecting some wise conversation between Nissa and Kefnet which would lead to revelations to Nissa relative to her experience with the Eldrazi on Zendikar, revelations that are so insightful she is compelled to a journey of knowledge very different from her own to uncover lost truths.
Glad it wasn't that and we got "PWs can do anything, and Nissa is so great she's the god here! Yay, Gatewatch!" And "gods aren't anything special like PWs are, they're just leylines." No wonder no one cares about Amonkhet's gods like we all did for Theros. The whole time it's been about why PWs are superior to them, starting with Bolas. And yeah, that is lame. But it should only have been Bolas in that position.
The sad part is, we've had Bolas built up as this major villain. And a lot of odds have been stacked against the Gatewatch winning. I wonder where we've seen this situation before? Oh right, the Eldrazi. And in a story where Eldrazi are Deus Ex Machina'ed and gods are instantaneously rewired like chess pieces and surral back and forth solves all your problems, I wonder how seriously we can bother to take anything?
I'm really NOT looking forward to the Gatewatch on Theros. The theft of Thassa's Bident I could excuse as it was an overwhelmingly lucky and narrow situation of extreme chance. But we just know Marketing: The Gathering is just going to set out and prove that Planeswalkers are the real gods and stars on Theros, not its actual gods (unlike in Greek mythology, the source material for Theros) and that's just garbage. Especially since it'll be Gatewatch garbage all over again.
The problem with your "Kefnet has a conversation with Nissa about the nature of the plane and Nicol Bolas" idea is that it was stated from early on that the five gods all serve Bolas and don't remember the "other" Amonkhet. There is no way she would have gotten any information out of him. Also the story seems to point to Bolas changing Amonkhet right before the mending... you know, when planeswalkers WERE godlike beings.
You also seem to have a very strict definition of what a god should be like. Heliod for example actually seems to me as less of a god then Kefnet actually, with his pettiness, his childish behaviour (starting a conflict between the gods intentionally to gain more praise) and his paranoia. Kruphix, arguably a more "mechanical" than "human" god seemed to me as the much more awe inspiring deity. And he outright said at the end of the Theros arc that Bolas could defeat the pantheon easily. Just because something is mechanical in nature and can be manipulated doesn't mean that it can't be divine in nature. Actually the Theros gods (and I really like those) could be manipulated just as "easily" by manipulating Nyx (like Ashiok was attempting to do). The gods of Amonkhet are more like benevolent forces of nature generated by the plane itself, not by beliefs, and their divinity stems from their immediate connection to the plane itself as nexi of mana (or leyline, same thing really). As such they can be manipulated by someone who knows a few things about leylines (like Bolas) and is powerful enough to pull it off. It's a small weakness, just like the "unbelieving" thing in Theros, but Bolas was smart enough to find it out (as was Nissa). I believe Nissas role will be to reset them to their old selfs, freeing them from Bolas control (only after Bolas destroyed pretty much everything else though and achieved what he was trying to accomplish), not manipulate them. I like the gods of Amonkhet just the way they are (or rather were) and I'm excited to see were this is going.
I makes the gods seem pretty lame if anyone familiar with leylines can just walk up to them and take control. She instantly and radically altered his behavior. I mean obviously you can do that in the game but in the story it's a bit odd that they're so vulnerable. (Maybe Bolas modified them to make them easier to control but we've yet to see evidence of that)
Well, on Theros anyone can hypothetically create gods through enough believe (and atheism MIGHT be a threat to them). Sounds not very awe-inspiring on paper either. And Bolas already did change their basic programming (I already guessed before that the gods are very mechanical in nature on Amonkhet and I was proven right here). So for you the story is flawed from the start since Bolas corrupting the gods seems to be a pretty major plot point. If he could do it, why could no one else? And Nissa didn't take control of Kefnet, she only changed his attitude towards her slightly so he wouldn't instantly kill her. That's not really "taking control". For that she might neither be powerful nor analytical enough.
Im okay with a character established as an ancient genius of incredible magical power managing to determine that the gods are made of leylines and even corrupt them over a period of months or years. That a person of no great power or experience can just reprogram a god within a few seconds of meeting it is pretty lame. (Remember Nissan great power on Zendikar was because of her relationship with Zendikar itself)
You really don't see the difference between those events?
I makes the gods seem pretty lame if anyone familiar with leylines can just walk up to them and take control. She instantly and radically altered his behavior. I mean obviously you can do that in the game but in the story it's a bit odd that they're so vulnerable. (Maybe Bolas modified them to make them easier to control but we've yet to see evidence of that)
Well, on Theros anyone can hypothetically create gods through enough believe (and atheism MIGHT be a threat to them). Sounds not very awe-inspiring on paper either. And Bolas already did change their basic programming (I already guessed before that the gods are very mechanical in nature on Amonkhet and I was proven right here). So for you the story is flawed from the start since Bolas corrupting the gods seems to be a pretty major plot point. If he could do it, why could no one else? And Nissa didn't take control of Kefnet, she only changed his attitude towards her slightly so he wouldn't instantly kill her. That's not really "taking control". For that she might neither be powerful nor analytical enough.
Im okay with a character established as an ancient genius of incredible magical power managing to determine that the gods are made of leylines and even corrupt them over a period of months or years. That a person of no great power or experience can just reprogram a god within a few seconds of meeting it is pretty lame. (Remember Nissan great power on Zendikar was because of her relationship with Zendikar itself)
You really don't see the difference between those events?
Yes, the powerlevel involved. Other than that? No. Nissas whole spiel since BFZ is that she can sense leylines/mana currents on any plane and manipulate them. She had more control on Zendikar admittedly because of her connection to the plane (she wasn't nearly as powerful on Innistrad for example). It seems to me that this is a rather rare trait. Bolas was able to analyse the nature of Amonkhet because of his intelligence and power, Nissa because it's her innate talent. She was able to change the outcome of one single "subroutine" (to continue the analogy) of Kefnet for a short period of time, which doesn't strike me as a huge deal which would need extreme might to accomplish. There is nothing wrong with this turn of event in my opinion, it doesn't strip the gods of their divinity, it is actually necessary so that you can explain how Bolas subverted their will... on the contrary, being more mechanical than the Theros pantheon makes them more interesting in my eyes. Amonkhet is truly an intriguing plane for me.
Im okay with a character established as an ancient genius of incredible magical power managing to determine that the gods are made of leylines and even corrupt them over a period of months or years. That a person of no great power or experience can just reprogram a god within a few seconds of meeting it is pretty lame. (Remember Nissan great power on Zendikar was because of her relationship with Zendikar itself)
You really don't see the difference between those events?
Why do you assume it took Bolas months or years? Is there anything close to this being indicated anywhere? Or would you be equally unsettled if we learned Bolas conquered all of Amonket in a day(or week), including 'destroying' three gods subjugating the other five and wiping out everyone over the age of 40?
Why are you discrediting Nissa? She's had experience with leylines for at least a few years now. Sure she only learned because Zendikar was her friend, but that doesn't mean the things she learned are useless elsewhere, it was proven not to be the case the very next plane where her connection to leylines was just as strong, the leylines where just more violent there.
Honestly I don't see any difference(problem) between a person with natural talent(Nissa and leylines) accomplishing the same thing as someone else(Bolas) who spent an undetermined amount of time to accomplish. If she actually did something the other couldn't(or maybe even equal) I would have problems, but Bolas practically left her the blueprints so its not strange to see her accomplish this lesser task.
Why do you assume it took Bolas months or years? Is there anything close to this being indicated anywhere? Or would you be equally unsettled if we learned Bolas conquered all of Amonket in a day(or week), including 'destroying' three gods subjugating the other five and wiping out everyone over the age of 40?
Why are you discrediting Nissa? She's had experience with leylines for at least a few years now. Sure she only learned because Zendikar was her friend, but that doesn't mean the things she learned are useless elsewhere, it was proven not to be the case the very next plane where her connection to leylines was just as strong, the leylines where just more violent there.
Honestly I don't see any difference(problem) between a person with natural talent(Nissa and leylines) accomplishing the same thing as someone else(Bolas) who spent an undetermined amount of time to accomplish. If she actually did something the other couldn't(or maybe even equal) I would have problems, but Bolas practically left her the blueprints so its not strange to see her accomplish this lesser task.
Why do you assume Bolas "practically left her the blueprints"? Hell, how would Nissa even recognize something like that? She's not a trained telepath, and I doubt Bolas would MC the Gods by "altering the leylines", since that's not generally his kind of thing.
But overlooking all of that... why do we even pretend that the Planeswalker Spark was altered after the Time Spiral-block? The Gatewatch are pulling off things that I would have accepted from an Oldwalker, but they are supposed to just be regular mages who happen to be able to walk between the Planes now!
And yet... overcoming Gods, whom they've never encountered before, know nothing about, in a matter of seconds? Killing Cthuloid monstrosities that devour entire worlds? At this point in the narrative, we might as well just restore Planeswalkers to the overgods they used to be, because the Gatewatch keep pulling that kind of power out of their a******s anyway.
Why do you assume it took Bolas months or years? Is there anything close to this being indicated anywhere? Or would you be equally unsettled if we learned Bolas conquered all of Amonket in a day(or week), including 'destroying' three gods subjugating the other five and wiping out everyone over the age of 40?
Why are you discrediting Nissa? She's had experience with leylines for at least a few years now. Sure she only learned because Zendikar was her friend, but that doesn't mean the things she learned are useless elsewhere, it was proven not to be the case the very next plane where her connection to leylines was just as strong, the leylines where just more violent there.
Honestly I don't see any difference(problem) between a person with natural talent(Nissa and leylines) accomplishing the same thing as someone else(Bolas) who spent an undetermined amount of time to accomplish. If she actually did something the other couldn't(or maybe even equal) I would have problems, but Bolas practically left her the blueprints so its not strange to see her accomplish this lesser task.
Why do you assume Bolas "practically left her the blueprints"? Hell, how would Nissa even recognize something like that? She's not a trained telepath, and I doubt Bolas would MC the Gods by "altering the leylines", since that's not generally his kind of thing.
But overlooking all of that... why do we even pretend that the Planeswalker Spark was altered after the Time Spiral-block? The Gatewatch are pulling off things that I would have accepted from an Oldwalker, but they are supposed to just be regular mages who happen to be able to walk between the Planes now!
And yet... overcoming Gods, whom they've never encountered before, know nothing about, in a matter of seconds? Killing Cthuloid monstrosities that devour entire worlds? At this point in the narrative, we might as well just restore Planeswalkers to the overgods they used to be, because the Gatewatch keep pulling that kind of power out of their a******s anyway.
We assume that because that is what the story told us: Nissa sees Bolas changes to Kefnets being and realizes that the god is made of leylines BECAUSE of that. And then: "She remembered her witnessing of Bolas's corruption of the gods, a dark helix in the night sky. She could not undo what he had done, but she used some of that knowledge to create a small pattern of her own making.".
And there is nothing indicating that this is a feat that neowalkers can't do. It's a subtle manipulation which is only temporary anyway. Bolas just went to Amonkhet, seemingly right before the mending and corrupted the whole plane in one swift motion. There is an enormous difference! She didn't overcome the god, actually he nearly killed her. She just made him believe that she passed the trial so that he would let her go. Everything more than that was beyond her power, as she admitted herself. And once again, the gatewatch could only do that on Zendikar because of the oldwalker trios work on Zendikar (the hedron network, the slow draining of mana from the Titans, the magic needed to pull the Eldrazi fully into the plane etc) as well as the planes special properties (its sentience, the wild mana etc.). They would have failed horribly against the titans if not for that.
I get it, you hate the gatewatch as a concept, but misrepresenting the story for your arguments is not the way to go.
Why do you assume it took Bolas months or years? Is there anything close to this being indicated anywhere? Or would you be equally unsettled if we learned Bolas conquered all of Amonket in a day(or week), including 'destroying' three gods subjugating the other five and wiping out everyone over the age of 40?
Why are you discrediting Nissa? She's had experience with leylines for at least a few years now. Sure she only learned because Zendikar was her friend, but that doesn't mean the things she learned are useless elsewhere, it was proven not to be the case the very next plane where her connection to leylines was just as strong, the leylines where just more violent there.
Honestly I don't see any difference(problem) between a person with natural talent(Nissa and leylines) accomplishing the same thing as someone else(Bolas) who spent an undetermined amount of time to accomplish. If she actually did something the other couldn't(or maybe even equal) I would have problems, but Bolas practically left her the blueprints so its not strange to see her accomplish this lesser task.
Why do you assume Bolas "practically left her the blueprints"? Hell, how would Nissa even recognize something like that? She's not a trained telepath, and I doubt Bolas would MC the Gods by "altering the leylines", since that's not generally his kind of thing.
But overlooking all of that... why do we even pretend that the Planeswalker Spark was altered after the Time Spiral-block? The Gatewatch are pulling off things that I would have accepted from an Oldwalker, but they are supposed to just be regular mages who happen to be able to walk between the Planes now!
And yet... overcoming Gods, whom they've never encountered before, know nothing about, in a matter of seconds? Killing Cthuloid monstrosities that devour entire worlds? At this point in the narrative, we might as well just restore Planeswalkers to the overgods they used to be, because the Gatewatch keep pulling that kind of power out of their a******s anyway.
Exactly. I was prepared to accept Bolas manipulating the Amonkhet gods. He is powerful and he has been on Amonkhet for decades or more. He is aware of the plane and has presumably studied it with his vast intellect and magic prowess. Like the Eldrazi, he is a formidable threat.
Honestly, if the gap between the heroes and villains is as vast as people are making it out to be, I don't see any reasonable way that the heroes could win. Nissa can't do anything Bolas did, even if it's on a vastly reduced scale, that's too powerful. How exactly are the Gatewatch supposed to win? People balk at additional people joining the Gatewatch, so it can't be quantity, and if they're too strong then it's complained about too.
I really feel bad for Wizards, no matter what they do people complain. The only answer people seem willing to accept is complete and utter destruction of the Gatewatch. Yes, hyperbole, but that really does seem to be the vibe.
Why do you assume it took Bolas months or years? Is there anything close to this being indicated anywhere? Or would you be equally unsettled if we learned Bolas conquered all of Amonket in a day(or week), including 'destroying' three gods subjugating the other five and wiping out everyone over the age of 40?
Why are you discrediting Nissa? She's had experience with leylines for at least a few years now. Sure she only learned because Zendikar was her friend, but that doesn't mean the things she learned are useless elsewhere, it was proven not to be the case the very next plane where her connection to leylines was just as strong, the leylines where just more violent there.
Honestly I don't see any difference(problem) between a person with natural talent(Nissa and leylines) accomplishing the same thing as someone else(Bolas) who spent an undetermined amount of time to accomplish. If she actually did something the other couldn't(or maybe even equal) I would have problems, but Bolas practically left her the blueprints so its not strange to see her accomplish this lesser task.
Why do you assume Bolas "practically left her the blueprints"? Hell, how would Nissa even recognize something like that? She's not a trained telepath, and I doubt Bolas would MC the Gods by "altering the leylines", since that's not generally his kind of thing.
I don't assume, Nissa told us.
She remembered her witnessing of Bolas's corruption of the gods, a dark helix in the night sky. She could not undo what he had done, but she used some of that knowledge to create a small pattern of her own making.
I'm not sure how you think being a telepath would help here, did you want Jace to save the day and imagine a telepath would be useful?
Honestly, if the gap between the heroes and villains is as vast as people are making it out to be, I don't see any reasonable way that the heroes could win. Nissa can't do anything Bolas did, even if it's on a vastly reduced scale, that's too powerful. How exactly are the Gatewatch supposed to win? People balk at additional people joining the Gatewatch, so it can't be quantity, and if they're too strong then it's complained about too.
I really feel bad for Wizards, no matter what they do people complain. The only answer people seem willing to accept is complete and utter destruction of the Gatewatch. Yes, hyperbole, but that really does seem to be the vibe.
This is how I feel about it too. There are story elements that should be critizised, but people are really starting to nitpick here. It also gets ridiculous when some people seem to think that the only "logical" story progressions are those they themselves approve of. I was pretty lukewarm of the concept of the gatewatch at first as well, but I think that there is potential there and the stories keep getting better. Yet there seems to be quite the amount of people in the fandom who become increasingly irrational in regards to their criticisms. It's not the majority though I believe. And as I said, there are valid criticisms people can bring forth (the weakness of certain stories like the resolution of Aether Revolt for example). This though isn't one of those.
Honestly, if the gap between the heroes and villains is as vast as people are making it out to be, I don't see any reasonable way that the heroes could win. Nissa can't do anything Bolas did, even if it's on a vastly reduced scale, that's too powerful. How exactly are the Gatewatch supposed to win? People balk at additional people joining the Gatewatch, so it can't be quantity, and if they're too strong then it's complained about too.
I really feel bad for Wizards, no matter what they do people complain. The only answer people seem willing to accept is complete and utter destruction of the Gatewatch. Yes, hyperbole, but that really does seem to be the vibe.
Do you know what separates an Oldwalker from Neowalkers/the Gatewatch? Imagine five ants trying to fight a bull elephant. The Gatewatch are not a bad idea, but the story's been so bungled where they are concerned, that I'd rather they just get broken up at this point. The contrivances that have to be implemented in order for the GW to not get clownstomped by some of the threats they face is killing my interest the setting.
I understand if you like them, they're like a Magic version of the Avengers, but I simply don't care for how they've been handled. They are supposed to be regular mages outside of the planeswalking, yet they keep overcoming threats that by all right shouldn't even register them as a nuisance. It's like Spiderman beating Thanos in a straight fight; no. Just no.
Just makes me mildly irritated at times, which is why I used that hyperbole. But I really don't see any good answer. Though I think a large part of it is people hyping things up that isn't necessarily supported by Wizards.
Honestly, if the gap between the heroes and villains is as vast as people are making it out to be, I don't see any reasonable way that the heroes could win. Nissa can't do anything Bolas did, even if it's on a vastly reduced scale, that's too powerful. How exactly are the Gatewatch supposed to win? People balk at additional people joining the Gatewatch, so it can't be quantity, and if they're too strong then it's complained about too.
I really feel bad for Wizards, no matter what they do people complain. The only answer people seem willing to accept is complete and utter destruction of the Gatewatch. Yes, hyperbole, but that really does seem to be the vibe.
Do you know what separates an Oldwalker from Neowalkers/the Gatewatch? Imagine five ants trying to fight a bull elephant. The Gatewatch are not a bad idea, but the story's been so bungled where they are concerned, that I'd rather they just get broken up at this point. The contrivances that have to be implemented in order for the GW to not get clownstomped by some of the threats they face is killing my interest the setting.
I understand if you like them, they're like a Magic version of the Avengers, but I simply don't care for how they've been handled. They are supposed to be regular mages outside of the planeswalking, yet they keep overcoming threats that by all right shouldn't even register them as a nuisance. It's like Spiderman beating Thanos in a straight fight; no. Just no.
I see that you fully ignored my rebuttal of your statement that the gatewatch did anything on their own that they could have only done if they were oldwalkers. There never was a straight fight (even the admittedly weak but explainable defeat of the titans wasn't). Emrakul had to use them as tools to imprison her and nearly killed all of them, Kaladesh was a pretty down-to-earth conflict and they still did nothing uberpowerful on Amonkhet yet (see my above answer to you). You are projecting your dislike for the idea on the storytelling I believe.
Yes, the stories are getting better. But Shakespeare or Tennyson it ain't.
Well, no, but that wasn't what this whole discussion was about in the first place. I don't think anyone has ever stated that MtG lore in general is as good as most of the things these two authors wrote anyway.
Honestly, if the gap between the heroes and villains is as vast as people are making it out to be, I don't see any reasonable way that the heroes could win. Nissa can't do anything Bolas did, even if it's on a vastly reduced scale, that's too powerful. How exactly are the Gatewatch supposed to win? People balk at additional people joining the Gatewatch, so it can't be quantity, and if they're too strong then it's complained about too.
I really feel bad for Wizards, no matter what they do people complain. The only answer people seem willing to accept is complete and utter destruction of the Gatewatch. Yes, hyperbole, but that really does seem to be the vibe.
Do you know what separates an Oldwalker from Neowalkers/the Gatewatch? Imagine five ants trying to fight a bull elephant. The Gatewatch are not a bad idea, but the story's been so bungled where they are concerned, that I'd rather they just get broken up at this point. The contrivances that have to be implemented in order for the GW to not get clownstomped by some of the threats they face is killing my interest the setting.
I understand if you like them, they're like a Magic version of the Avengers, but I simply don't care for how they've been handled. They are supposed to be regular mages outside of the planeswalking, yet they keep overcoming threats that by all right shouldn't even register them as a nuisance. It's like Spiderman beating Thanos in a straight fight; no. Just no.
I see that you fully ignored my rebuttal of your statement that the gatewatch did anything on their own that they could have only done if they were oldwalkers. There never was a straight fight (even the admittedly weak but explainable defeat of the titans wasn't). Emrakul had to use them as tools to imprison her and nearly killed all of them, Kaladesh was a pretty down-to-earth conflict and they still did nothing uberpowerful on Amonkhet yet (see my above answer to you). You are projecting your dislike for the idea on the storytelling I believe.
Yes, I dislike the storytelling; why the f*** do you think I'm complaining? The storytelling of MtG as a whole has deteriorated since BfZ, and I blame the s*** writing where the Gatewatch are concerned for that - not because the idea of a group of planeswalkers working together bothers me, but because I consider the writing to be bad. Threats like Tezzeret I can accept them fighting and beating, but the Eldrazi? Gods?
Chandra, per Wizards own established canon, is just a pyromancer who can planeswalk: how do you expect me to take the story seriously when she kills Cthulhu? Or when Nissa mindr**** a God into submission despite never even trying something like that before, while she's under direct mental assault?
I'm not projecting; I just consider the story about the GW to be a poorly thought out, poorly told mess, on par with fanfiction. When you keep pitting them against threats that they should by all rights not even be in danger of inconveniencing, yet keep having them come out on top, it robs the setting of any gravitas it might have had.
All Nissa did was make the God ignore her. She didn't make the God go kill Bolas, or anything really of note. Calling that submission is a pretty big exaggeration.
And the Chandra situation seemed reasonable, especially when Ugin didn't say they couldn't be killed just that he didn't want to risk it.
Honestly, if the gap between the heroes and villains is as vast as people are making it out to be, I don't see any reasonable way that the heroes could win. Nissa can't do anything Bolas did, even if it's on a vastly reduced scale, that's too powerful. How exactly are the Gatewatch supposed to win? People balk at additional people joining the Gatewatch, so it can't be quantity, and if they're too strong then it's complained about too.
I really feel bad for Wizards, no matter what they do people complain. The only answer people seem willing to accept is complete and utter destruction of the Gatewatch. Yes, hyperbole, but that really does seem to be the vibe.
Do you know what separates an Oldwalker from Neowalkers/the Gatewatch? Imagine five ants trying to fight a bull elephant. The Gatewatch are not a bad idea, but the story's been so bungled where they are concerned, that I'd rather they just get broken up at this point. The contrivances that have to be implemented in order for the GW to not get clownstomped by some of the threats they face is killing my interest the setting.
I understand if you like them, they're like a Magic version of the Avengers, but I simply don't care for how they've been handled. They are supposed to be regular mages outside of the planeswalking, yet they keep overcoming threats that by all right shouldn't even register them as a nuisance. It's like Spiderman beating Thanos in a straight fight; no. Just no.
I see that you fully ignored my rebuttal of your statement that the gatewatch did anything on their own that they could have only done if they were oldwalkers. There never was a straight fight (even the admittedly weak but explainable defeat of the titans wasn't). Emrakul had to use them as tools to imprison her and nearly killed all of them, Kaladesh was a pretty down-to-earth conflict and they still did nothing uberpowerful on Amonkhet yet (see my above answer to you). You are projecting your dislike for the idea on the storytelling I believe.
Yes, I dislike the storytelling; why the f*** do you think I'm complaining? The storytelling of MtG as a whole has deteriorated since BfZ, and I blame the s*** writing where the Gatewatch are concerned for that - not because the idea of a group of planeswalkers working together bothers me, but because I consider the writing to be bad. Threats like Tezzeret I can accept them fighting and beating, but the Eldrazi? Gods?
Chandra, per Wizards own established canon, is just a pyromancer who can planeswalk: how do you expect me to take the story seriously when she kills Cthulhu? Or when Nissa mindr**** a God into submission despite never even trying something like that before, while she's under direct mental assault?
I'm not projecting; I just consider the story about the GW to be a poorly thought out, poorly told mess, on par with fanfiction. When you keep pitting them against threats that they should by all rights not even be in danger of inconveniencing, yet keep having them come out on top, it robs the setting of any gravitas it might have had.
Yeah, ok, that's actually fine if you say that you dislike the storyline. None of us (me included) told you to find it great. But that's your opinion only (granted an opinion shared by a few people on this site, but certainly not all and most likely not by the majority of them). All of the events you described were explained in one way or the other (and you are seriously blowing them out of proportion). The stories might be weak sometimes (but as has been said before, getting better), but the points you throw around here are not valid criticisms and you are ignoring evidence against your opinion. But even that is ok, just stop reading these horrible fanfics. No one is forcing them onto you. No one is forcing you to discuss them here either. Or are you just not happy as long as there are people liking these stories? That's not yours to decide for them though.
Yes, I dislike the storytelling; why the f*** do you think I'm complaining? The storytelling of MtG as a whole has deteriorated since BfZ, and I blame the s*** writing where the Gatewatch are concerned for that - not because the idea of a group of planeswalkers working together bothers me, but because I consider the writing to be bad. Threats like Tezzeret I can accept them fighting and beating, but the Eldrazi? Gods?
Chandra, per Wizards own established canon, is just a pyromancer who can planeswalk: how do you expect me to take the story seriously when she kills Cthulhu? Or when Nissa mindr**** a God into submission despite never even trying something like that before, while she's under direct mental assault?
I'm not projecting; I just consider the story about the GW to be a poorly thought out, poorly told mess, on par with fanfiction. When you keep pitting them against threats that they should by all rights not even be in danger of inconveniencing, yet keep having them come out on top, it robs the setting of any gravitas it might have had.
For starters I'd say that the largest portion of readers would agree that the writing has improved substantially since BFZ.
Secondly; mindrape? That's your choice of words. You haters really, REALLY like to exaggerate and overblow these events. She barely managed to tweak a tiny piece of Kefnet's code so he wouldn't kill her. That's hardly mind*******. If that's how you describe it is love to hear what you would call what a real, master telepath like Jace would do to him. If Jace even could do anything to him.
Seriously. Every major event with the exception of Gideon mildly inconveniencing (not pushing back like you haters like to say) Ulamog has had an explanation that was entirely reasonable within world.
She changed a piece of a god. With powers she had had for two days. That is total nonsense.
Wait what? Where did you get the idea that she had gotten "powers" and that she used those to do that? That was why everyone was talking about leylines before: Nissa (at least from BFZ forward, perhabs earlier, I don't remember) has the ability to sense leylines and manipulate them. She noticed through observation and Bolas manipulation that Kefnet consisted of those too and taking her knowledge from her vision about Bolas corrupting the gods as well as the corruption itself (which she could sense as well) she was able to put a miniscule change into the god which made him ignore her instead of killing her. Nothing about this is illogical, the worst you could say is that it is convenient (which I don't think is the case either, but nonetheless).
I don't think you're entirely neutral here, either, given that your avatar is Beefslab.
What a strange way to tackle my argument. Yes, I like Gideon as a character and I like how he looks. But what has any of that to do with what I wrote before? Are the only people allowed to discuss this people who feel indifferent about the Gatewatch characters or people who don't like them? Isn't that a bit one-sided then?
Also, my like or dislike for the Gatewatch has nothing to do with our argument. You said that the story was "nonsense" and I told you in detail why you misrepresented the story and why it makes perfect sense using only information that was gathered from the stories itself. There is no point aside from whether you could call this twist "convenient" or not in which I had to use my personal opinion.
So you're telling me that the blue was inside Nissa all along and she just used untapped (haha) potential rather than gained new powers?
The blue part of her planeswalker card reflects her character changing, not her powers. I'm not even sure if the transition to blue as her secondary color has been fully realized in story right now. The leyline ability is green in nature, as is mana manipulation in general (mostly). As such her "reprogramming" of Kefnet only uses her natural abilities and her newfound sense of analysis (which come to think of it, she already started to show signs of developing on Kaladesh). Nissa is slowly becoming a more analytical person who actually wants to change things, something green normally isn't really in favor of, but blue is. This is character growth, nothing else.
Yes, I dislike the storytelling; why the f*** do you think I'm complaining? The storytelling of MtG as a whole has deteriorated since BfZ, and I blame the s*** writing where the Gatewatch are concerned for that - not because the idea of a group of planeswalkers working together bothers me, but because I consider the writing to be bad. Threats like Tezzeret I can accept them fighting and beating, but the Eldrazi? Gods?
BFZ? The Storytelling has Deteriorated since Kamigawa, really it has been kinda bad since we left Dominaria on the "Multiversal Tour" and instead of getting long plots like the Phyrexian plot line we get cycles that need to build up, climax and resolve in a year but it has gotten far more noticeable lately because instead of 3 novels a block we get 8 stories.
Chandra, per Wizards own established canon, is just a pyromancer who can planeswalk: how do you expect me to take the story seriously when she kills Cthulhu?
The Eldrazi are -NOT= Cthulhu, they are inspired by Lovecraft but they have from the start been a terrible take on them. The Eldrazi being defeated in a halfarsed way was how it was going to end from the very moment Rise of the Eldrazi came out as a set and the Titans were a thing, and yes a Pyromancer can do insane things when you dump a planes' worth of Mana into a fireball. A Moon sized amount of mana nearly Killed Yawgmoth back in Apocalypse and he was more Cthulhu than the Eldrazi were.
She changed a piece of a god. With powers she had had for two days. That is total nonsense.
No, she changed a Zero to a One. That is all she did, Kenfet still has "KILL ALL FAILURES!" as part of his programming, he still serves Nicol. All she did was change Pass into Fail. Considering gods are Enchantments them being made of Leylines is not particularly surprising considering that all the Leylines are also Enchantments.
Now that isn't to say I am enjoying the current story. I don't like that Amonkhet isn't a Nicol crafted world, I don't know why they would even bring that possibility up at the end of Aether Revolt just for a "Twist." THEY TOTALLY FOOOOOOLED US, I also could live without the part where we skipped Gideon doing a Trial..to watch Nissa and Chandra do nothing. That is a great use of 1/8th your short stories.
At least when we waste time on the Jace/Liliana ship we discover things of actual use.
Yes, I dislike the storytelling; why the f*** do you think I'm complaining? The storytelling of MtG as a whole has deteriorated since BfZ, and I blame the s*** writing where the Gatewatch are concerned for that - not because the idea of a group of planeswalkers working together bothers me, but because I consider the writing to be bad. Threats like Tezzeret I can accept them fighting and beating, but the Eldrazi? Gods?
BFZ? The Storytelling has Deteriorated since Kamigawa, really it has been kinda bad since we left Dominaria on the "Multiversal Tour" and instead of getting long plots like the Phyrexian plot line we get cycles that need to build up, climax and resolve in a year but it has gotten far more noticeable lately because instead of 3 novels a block we get 8 stories.
Chandra, per Wizards own established canon, is just a pyromancer who can planeswalk: how do you expect me to take the story seriously when she kills Cthulhu?
The Eldrazi are -NOT= Cthulhu, they are inspired by Lovecraft but they have from the start been a terrible take on them. The Eldrazi being defeated in a halfarsed way was how it was going to end from the very moment Rise of the Eldrazi came out as a set and the Titans were a thing, and yes a Pyromancer can do insane things when you dump a planes' worth of Mana into a fireball. A Moon sized amount of mana nearly Killed Yawgmoth back in Apocalypse and he was more Cthulhu than the Eldrazi were.
She changed a piece of a god. With powers she had had for two days. That is total nonsense.
No, she changed a Zero to a One. That is all she did, Kenfet still has "KILL ALL FAILURES!" as part of his programming, he still serves Nicol. All she did was change Pass into Fail. Considering gods are Enchantments them being made of Leylines is not particularly surprising considering that all the Leylines are also Enchantments.
Now that isn't to say I am enjoying the current story. I don't like that Amonkhet isn't a Nicol crafted world, I don't know why they would even bring that possibility up at the end of Aether Revolt just for a "Twist." THEY TOTALLY FOOOOOOLED US, I also could live without the part where we skipped Gideon doing a Trial..to watch Nissa and Chandra do nothing. That is a great use of 1/8th your short stories.
At least when we waste time on the Jace/Liliana ship we discover things of actual use.
As has been said before, most people seem to think that the story is getting better. Also come on, seriously? Storyline deterioration started after Kamigawa? Need I remind you of Prophecy, Karona, and certain parts of the Weatherlight saga? Original Ravnica was also a pretty solid story, as was Theros. Also, well, they did fool us. Haven't seen many people saying that Amonkhet wasn't a world created by Bolas. At least for me it created certain expectations (like the gods being made to control the populace) which were subverted by the reveal. Might be that it was only me, but I found that this added something for the story. And Nissa discovered not only that Bolas conquered Amonkhet, but also that the whole "all dead people come back to (un)life" thing was characteristic for this world and that Bolas warped it somehow, that there were more gods in the past and that Bolas conquest happened only recently, all of which I found fascinating and intriguing. Of all the Gatewatch storylines until now, I like Amonkhet the most. It seems to actually let Gideons and Nissas character develop (perhabs even Lilianas).
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Glad it wasn't that and we got "PWs can do anything, and Nissa is so great she's the god here! Yay, Gatewatch!" And "gods aren't anything special like PWs are, they're just leylines." No wonder no one cares about Amonkhet's gods like we all did for Theros. The whole time it's been about why PWs are superior to them, starting with Bolas. And yeah, that is lame. But it should only have been Bolas in that position.
The sad part is, we've had Bolas built up as this major villain. And a lot of odds have been stacked against the Gatewatch winning. I wonder where we've seen this situation before? Oh right, the Eldrazi. And in a story where Eldrazi are Deus Ex Machina'ed and gods are instantaneously rewired like chess pieces and surral back and forth solves all your problems, I wonder how seriously we can bother to take anything?
I'm really NOT looking forward to the Gatewatch on Theros. The theft of Thassa's Bident I could excuse as it was an overwhelmingly lucky and narrow situation of extreme chance. But we just know Marketing: The Gathering is just going to set out and prove that Planeswalkers are the real gods and stars on Theros, not its actual gods (unlike in Greek mythology, the source material for Theros) and that's just garbage. Especially since it'll be Gatewatch garbage all over again.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
The problem with your "Kefnet has a conversation with Nissa about the nature of the plane and Nicol Bolas" idea is that it was stated from early on that the five gods all serve Bolas and don't remember the "other" Amonkhet. There is no way she would have gotten any information out of him. Also the story seems to point to Bolas changing Amonkhet right before the mending... you know, when planeswalkers WERE godlike beings.
You also seem to have a very strict definition of what a god should be like. Heliod for example actually seems to me as less of a god then Kefnet actually, with his pettiness, his childish behaviour (starting a conflict between the gods intentionally to gain more praise) and his paranoia. Kruphix, arguably a more "mechanical" than "human" god seemed to me as the much more awe inspiring deity. And he outright said at the end of the Theros arc that Bolas could defeat the pantheon easily. Just because something is mechanical in nature and can be manipulated doesn't mean that it can't be divine in nature. Actually the Theros gods (and I really like those) could be manipulated just as "easily" by manipulating Nyx (like Ashiok was attempting to do). The gods of Amonkhet are more like benevolent forces of nature generated by the plane itself, not by beliefs, and their divinity stems from their immediate connection to the plane itself as nexi of mana (or leyline, same thing really). As such they can be manipulated by someone who knows a few things about leylines (like Bolas) and is powerful enough to pull it off. It's a small weakness, just like the "unbelieving" thing in Theros, but Bolas was smart enough to find it out (as was Nissa). I believe Nissas role will be to reset them to their old selfs, freeing them from Bolas control (only after Bolas destroyed pretty much everything else though and achieved what he was trying to accomplish), not manipulate them. I like the gods of Amonkhet just the way they are (or rather were) and I'm excited to see were this is going.
Im okay with a character established as an ancient genius of incredible magical power managing to determine that the gods are made of leylines and even corrupt them over a period of months or years. That a person of no great power or experience can just reprogram a god within a few seconds of meeting it is pretty lame. (Remember Nissan great power on Zendikar was because of her relationship with Zendikar itself)
You really don't see the difference between those events?
Yes, the powerlevel involved. Other than that? No. Nissas whole spiel since BFZ is that she can sense leylines/mana currents on any plane and manipulate them. She had more control on Zendikar admittedly because of her connection to the plane (she wasn't nearly as powerful on Innistrad for example). It seems to me that this is a rather rare trait. Bolas was able to analyse the nature of Amonkhet because of his intelligence and power, Nissa because it's her innate talent. She was able to change the outcome of one single "subroutine" (to continue the analogy) of Kefnet for a short period of time, which doesn't strike me as a huge deal which would need extreme might to accomplish. There is nothing wrong with this turn of event in my opinion, it doesn't strip the gods of their divinity, it is actually necessary so that you can explain how Bolas subverted their will... on the contrary, being more mechanical than the Theros pantheon makes them more interesting in my eyes. Amonkhet is truly an intriguing plane for me.
Why are you discrediting Nissa? She's had experience with leylines for at least a few years now. Sure she only learned because Zendikar was her friend, but that doesn't mean the things she learned are useless elsewhere, it was proven not to be the case the very next plane where her connection to leylines was just as strong, the leylines where just more violent there.
Honestly I don't see any difference(problem) between a person with natural talent(Nissa and leylines) accomplishing the same thing as someone else(Bolas) who spent an undetermined amount of time to accomplish. If she actually did something the other couldn't(or maybe even equal) I would have problems, but Bolas practically left her the blueprints so its not strange to see her accomplish this lesser task.
Why do you assume Bolas "practically left her the blueprints"? Hell, how would Nissa even recognize something like that? She's not a trained telepath, and I doubt Bolas would MC the Gods by "altering the leylines", since that's not generally his kind of thing.
But overlooking all of that... why do we even pretend that the Planeswalker Spark was altered after the Time Spiral-block? The Gatewatch are pulling off things that I would have accepted from an Oldwalker, but they are supposed to just be regular mages who happen to be able to walk between the Planes now!
And yet... overcoming Gods, whom they've never encountered before, know nothing about, in a matter of seconds? Killing Cthuloid monstrosities that devour entire worlds? At this point in the narrative, we might as well just restore Planeswalkers to the overgods they used to be, because the Gatewatch keep pulling that kind of power out of their a******s anyway.
We assume that because that is what the story told us: Nissa sees Bolas changes to Kefnets being and realizes that the god is made of leylines BECAUSE of that. And then: "She remembered her witnessing of Bolas's corruption of the gods, a dark helix in the night sky. She could not undo what he had done, but she used some of that knowledge to create a small pattern of her own making.".
And there is nothing indicating that this is a feat that neowalkers can't do. It's a subtle manipulation which is only temporary anyway. Bolas just went to Amonkhet, seemingly right before the mending and corrupted the whole plane in one swift motion. There is an enormous difference! She didn't overcome the god, actually he nearly killed her. She just made him believe that she passed the trial so that he would let her go. Everything more than that was beyond her power, as she admitted herself. And once again, the gatewatch could only do that on Zendikar because of the oldwalker trios work on Zendikar (the hedron network, the slow draining of mana from the Titans, the magic needed to pull the Eldrazi fully into the plane etc) as well as the planes special properties (its sentience, the wild mana etc.). They would have failed horribly against the titans if not for that.
I get it, you hate the gatewatch as a concept, but misrepresenting the story for your arguments is not the way to go.
But this?
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I really feel bad for Wizards, no matter what they do people complain. The only answer people seem willing to accept is complete and utter destruction of the Gatewatch. Yes, hyperbole, but that really does seem to be the vibe.
I'm not sure how you think being a telepath would help here, did you want Jace to save the day and imagine a telepath would be useful?
This is how I feel about it too. There are story elements that should be critizised, but people are really starting to nitpick here. It also gets ridiculous when some people seem to think that the only "logical" story progressions are those they themselves approve of. I was pretty lukewarm of the concept of the gatewatch at first as well, but I think that there is potential there and the stories keep getting better. Yet there seems to be quite the amount of people in the fandom who become increasingly irrational in regards to their criticisms. It's not the majority though I believe. And as I said, there are valid criticisms people can bring forth (the weakness of certain stories like the resolution of Aether Revolt for example). This though isn't one of those.
Do you know what separates an Oldwalker from Neowalkers/the Gatewatch? Imagine five ants trying to fight a bull elephant. The Gatewatch are not a bad idea, but the story's been so bungled where they are concerned, that I'd rather they just get broken up at this point. The contrivances that have to be implemented in order for the GW to not get clownstomped by some of the threats they face is killing my interest the setting.
I understand if you like them, they're like a Magic version of the Avengers, but I simply don't care for how they've been handled. They are supposed to be regular mages outside of the planeswalking, yet they keep overcoming threats that by all right shouldn't even register them as a nuisance. It's like Spiderman beating Thanos in a straight fight; no. Just no.
I see that you fully ignored my rebuttal of your statement that the gatewatch did anything on their own that they could have only done if they were oldwalkers. There never was a straight fight (even the admittedly weak but explainable defeat of the titans wasn't). Emrakul had to use them as tools to imprison her and nearly killed all of them, Kaladesh was a pretty down-to-earth conflict and they still did nothing uberpowerful on Amonkhet yet (see my above answer to you). You are projecting your dislike for the idea on the storytelling I believe.
Well, no, but that wasn't what this whole discussion was about in the first place. I don't think anyone has ever stated that MtG lore in general is as good as most of the things these two authors wrote anyway.
And? It's a free story for starters. Comparing them to stories that have stood the test of time is rather unfair.
Even ignoring the whole subjective aspect to this all.
Yes, I dislike the storytelling; why the f*** do you think I'm complaining? The storytelling of MtG as a whole has deteriorated since BfZ, and I blame the s*** writing where the Gatewatch are concerned for that - not because the idea of a group of planeswalkers working together bothers me, but because I consider the writing to be bad. Threats like Tezzeret I can accept them fighting and beating, but the Eldrazi? Gods?
Chandra, per Wizards own established canon, is just a pyromancer who can planeswalk: how do you expect me to take the story seriously when she kills Cthulhu? Or when Nissa mindr**** a God into submission despite never even trying something like that before, while she's under direct mental assault?
I'm not projecting; I just consider the story about the GW to be a poorly thought out, poorly told mess, on par with fanfiction. When you keep pitting them against threats that they should by all rights not even be in danger of inconveniencing, yet keep having them come out on top, it robs the setting of any gravitas it might have had.
And the Chandra situation seemed reasonable, especially when Ugin didn't say they couldn't be killed just that he didn't want to risk it.
Yeah, ok, that's actually fine if you say that you dislike the storyline. None of us (me included) told you to find it great. But that's your opinion only (granted an opinion shared by a few people on this site, but certainly not all and most likely not by the majority of them). All of the events you described were explained in one way or the other (and you are seriously blowing them out of proportion). The stories might be weak sometimes (but as has been said before, getting better), but the points you throw around here are not valid criticisms and you are ignoring evidence against your opinion. But even that is ok, just stop reading these horrible fanfics. No one is forcing them onto you. No one is forcing you to discuss them here either. Or are you just not happy as long as there are people liking these stories? That's not yours to decide for them though.
For starters I'd say that the largest portion of readers would agree that the writing has improved substantially since BFZ.
Secondly; mindrape? That's your choice of words. You haters really, REALLY like to exaggerate and overblow these events. She barely managed to tweak a tiny piece of Kefnet's code so he wouldn't kill her. That's hardly mind*******. If that's how you describe it is love to hear what you would call what a real, master telepath like Jace would do to him. If Jace even could do anything to him.
Seriously. Every major event with the exception of Gideon mildly inconveniencing (not pushing back like you haters like to say) Ulamog has had an explanation that was entirely reasonable within world.
Wait what? Where did you get the idea that she had gotten "powers" and that she used those to do that? That was why everyone was talking about leylines before: Nissa (at least from BFZ forward, perhabs earlier, I don't remember) has the ability to sense leylines and manipulate them. She noticed through observation and Bolas manipulation that Kefnet consisted of those too and taking her knowledge from her vision about Bolas corrupting the gods as well as the corruption itself (which she could sense as well) she was able to put a miniscule change into the god which made him ignore her instead of killing her. Nothing about this is illogical, the worst you could say is that it is convenient (which I don't think is the case either, but nonetheless).
What a strange way to tackle my argument. Yes, I like Gideon as a character and I like how he looks. But what has any of that to do with what I wrote before? Are the only people allowed to discuss this people who feel indifferent about the Gatewatch characters or people who don't like them? Isn't that a bit one-sided then?
Also, my like or dislike for the Gatewatch has nothing to do with our argument. You said that the story was "nonsense" and I told you in detail why you misrepresented the story and why it makes perfect sense using only information that was gathered from the stories itself. There is no point aside from whether you could call this twist "convenient" or not in which I had to use my personal opinion.
The blue part of her planeswalker card reflects her character changing, not her powers. I'm not even sure if the transition to blue as her secondary color has been fully realized in story right now. The leyline ability is green in nature, as is mana manipulation in general (mostly). As such her "reprogramming" of Kefnet only uses her natural abilities and her newfound sense of analysis (which come to think of it, she already started to show signs of developing on Kaladesh). Nissa is slowly becoming a more analytical person who actually wants to change things, something green normally isn't really in favor of, but blue is. This is character growth, nothing else.
BFZ? The Storytelling has Deteriorated since Kamigawa, really it has been kinda bad since we left Dominaria on the "Multiversal Tour" and instead of getting long plots like the Phyrexian plot line we get cycles that need to build up, climax and resolve in a year but it has gotten far more noticeable lately because instead of 3 novels a block we get 8 stories.
The Eldrazi are -NOT= Cthulhu, they are inspired by Lovecraft but they have from the start been a terrible take on them. The Eldrazi being defeated in a halfarsed way was how it was going to end from the very moment Rise of the Eldrazi came out as a set and the Titans were a thing, and yes a Pyromancer can do insane things when you dump a planes' worth of Mana into a fireball. A Moon sized amount of mana nearly Killed Yawgmoth back in Apocalypse and he was more Cthulhu than the Eldrazi were.
No, she changed a Zero to a One. That is all she did, Kenfet still has "KILL ALL FAILURES!" as part of his programming, he still serves Nicol. All she did was change Pass into Fail. Considering gods are Enchantments them being made of Leylines is not particularly surprising considering that all the Leylines are also Enchantments.
Now that isn't to say I am enjoying the current story. I don't like that Amonkhet isn't a Nicol crafted world, I don't know why they would even bring that possibility up at the end of Aether Revolt just for a "Twist." THEY TOTALLY FOOOOOOLED US, I also could live without the part where we skipped Gideon doing a Trial..to watch Nissa and Chandra do nothing. That is a great use of 1/8th your short stories.
At least when we waste time on the Jace/Liliana ship we discover things of actual use.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
As has been said before, most people seem to think that the story is getting better. Also come on, seriously? Storyline deterioration started after Kamigawa? Need I remind you of Prophecy, Karona, and certain parts of the Weatherlight saga? Original Ravnica was also a pretty solid story, as was Theros. Also, well, they did fool us. Haven't seen many people saying that Amonkhet wasn't a world created by Bolas. At least for me it created certain expectations (like the gods being made to control the populace) which were subverted by the reveal. Might be that it was only me, but I found that this added something for the story. And Nissa discovered not only that Bolas conquered Amonkhet, but also that the whole "all dead people come back to (un)life" thing was characteristic for this world and that Bolas warped it somehow, that there were more gods in the past and that Bolas conquest happened only recently, all of which I found fascinating and intriguing. Of all the Gatewatch storylines until now, I like Amonkhet the most. It seems to actually let Gideons and Nissas character develop (perhabs even Lilianas).