Also, a cool thing about the spoiled cartouches. I love how the Hazoret's one is bloodied, given what you have to achieve to get it.
Maybe we'll see a legendary Worthy who's the Cartouche version of Maze's End: "When this dies, if it had five Cartouches with different names attached to it, you win the game."
Neat idea. But given the context, you should actually LOSE the game when having all five cartouches
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Former Fact Prospector of the Greek Alliance.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
Also, a cool thing about the spoiled cartouches. I love how the Hazoret's one is bloodied, given what you have to achieve to get it.
Maybe we'll see a legendary Worthy who's the Cartouche version of Maze's End: "When this dies, if it had five Cartouches with different names attached to it, you win the game."
Neat idea. But given the context, you should actually LOSE the game when having all five cartouches
Victory is in the eyes of the believer. Their death is winning for them so a Maze's End is flavorfully correct.
I agree with Northjayhawk on this. Wizards are trying to present it as part of some sort of philosophy, but I bet it's mostly a business decision. They just don't want any trouble with the big religions.
@Caranthir: Neat! Didn't notice the blood on Hazoret's cartouche until now.
(Also, stop quoting everything every time please)
Well duh it's mostly a business decision, every decision a business makes is a business decision. Mostly I just wanted to point out that Wizards explicitly stated there would be no Exodus material so we shouldn't expect the biblical plaques, and to explain their rationale.
Really the borders between fantasy and religion are very thin, the major difference being that one is sincerely believed in by many people and the other isn't. They both carry out largely the same purpose and the one is derived from the other. If you try to portray many worlds with a variety of cultural inspirations while at the same time trying not to seem like you're trivializing those cultures and peoples' sincere beliefs you're going to run into a ton of contradictions.
I wouldn't really agree that they carry out the same purpose at all, but I don't really see that argument going anywhere positive. But the point more succinctly is just that they don't want to deal with any of the Abrahamic religions or Hinduism, the rest is probably seen as fair game to them. Of course, given that they also want to avoid anything that is too "weird" for your average American most religions are fairly safe.
Hopefully in ten years or something the cultural landscape will have shifted so they can portray things that are right now too "weird" and there are less touchy subjects to avoid. For years they avoided printing demons in the game, now they're once again a mainstay, so things can change.
Well, I mean more that I don't see anything changing to make them think, as an example, that a plane like Kamigawa is a good idea. I don't see the culture of the US changing enough such that they'll see a plane that steeped in a culture more foreign to the US than Greece as a good thing.
I mean, even Amonkhet isn't Egyptian World, it's Bolas' Egyptian World. If Egyptian Mythology, one of the big three (along with Greek and Norse) isn't enough to get a plane all to itself I don't see that changing for any other culture. I expect Norse World will manage to be it's own thing probably, though I guess it could be Phyrexians vs. Norse or some such, but beyond that? Any other top-down stuff I imagine is either going to be really shallow or mixed with something else and not the primary focus.
I wouldn't really agree that they carry out the same purpose at all, but I don't really see that argument going anywhere positive. But the point more succinctly is just that they don't want to deal with any of the Abrahamic religions or Hinduism, the rest is probably seen as fair game to them. Of course, given that they also want to avoid anything that is too "weird" for your average American most religions are fairly safe.
It not that they can't use things that are "weird" they are just not going to over do like they did with Kamigawa. Theros used things like Centaurs and Hydras (which are things people generally know about with Greek mythology) in large numbers but still added in creatures from Greek mythology that people don't right away realize are greek with Hundred-Handed One, Breaching Hippocamp and Loathsome Catoblepas. Serpopards are pretty unknown but we got one (and most likely only one) on a card for Amonkhet. If we see Kamigawa as a set again* I'd think we'd see the wierd unfamiliar Kami again just not as large of a number as they did the first time round.
*I don't believe we will ever see a standard set on Kamigawa but I think we could see a supplement produce set there like Fiora.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Has it been discussed that the trials are a way for Bolas to make more planeswalkers?
It seems as though everyone on this plane is in their tip top condition devoted to the trials. Usually somebody with a spark is an exceptional individual with heightened abilities which leads me to believe the trials are a way to test how skilled and individual is while the finale they receive which is being killed by the god is what makes their spark ignite.
I wouldn't really agree that they carry out the same purpose at all, but I don't really see that argument going anywhere positive. But the point more succinctly is just that they don't want to deal with any of the Abrahamic religions or Hinduism, the rest is probably seen as fair game to them. Of course, given that they also want to avoid anything that is too "weird" for your average American most religions are fairly safe.
It not that they can't use things that are "weird" they are just not going to over do like they did with Kamigawa. Theros used things like Centaurs and Hydras (which are things people generally know about with Greek mythology) in large numbers but still added in creatures from Greek mythology that people don't right away realize are greek with Hundred-Handed One, Breaching Hippocamp and Loathsome Catoblepas. Serpopards are pretty unknown but we got one (and most likely only one) on a card for Amonkhet. If we see Kamigawa as a set again* I'd think we'd see the wierd unfamiliar Kami again just not as large of a number as they did the first time round.
*I don't believe we will ever see a standard set on Kamigawa but I think we could see a supplement produce set there like Fiora.
That's why I was talking about Planes as a whole and not individual cards. And I'm doubtful to is getting Kamigawa the supplemental set, but maybe.
I wouldn't really agree that they carry out the same purpose at all, but I don't really see that argument going anywhere positive. But the point more succinctly is just that they don't want to deal with any of the Abrahamic religions or Hinduism, the rest is probably seen as fair game to them. Of course, given that they also want to avoid anything that is too "weird" for your average American most religions are fairly safe.
It not that they can't use things that are "weird" they are just not going to over do like they did with Kamigawa. Theros used things like Centaurs and Hydras (which are things people generally know about with Greek mythology) in large numbers but still added in creatures from Greek mythology that people don't right away realize are greek with Hundred-Handed One, Breaching Hippocamp and Loathsome Catoblepas. Serpopards are pretty unknown but we got one (and most likely only one) on a card for Amonkhet. If we see Kamigawa as a set again* I'd think we'd see the wierd unfamiliar Kami again just not as large of a number as they did the first time round.
*I don't believe we will ever see a standard set on Kamigawa but I think we could see a supplement produce set there like Fiora.
That's why I was talking about Planes as a whole and not individual cards.
Can you elaborate? Not quite get what you mean by some mythologies would be to weird plane-wise.
And I'm doubtful to is getting Kamigawa the supplemental set, but maybe.
I think it will happen if they ever do a commander focused supplemental set. I'm doubtful as well but I think Kamigawa has ended up more popular (rose tinted glasses) in modern magic, but not enough to fully return to so I could see it happen.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
How does she know his name?
How often does Bolas come back? How long is the second sun cycle?
Is this the first or fiftieth version of Amonkhet?
Are the outlands ruins just prior incarnations?
Are there older people on Amonkhet?
Where is Razaketh?
Does Bolas just show up like every fifty years or whatever to check up on the plane? Eat the energy take the worthy destroy everything and restart again?
Just questions I have
Can you elaborate? Not quite get what you mean by some mythologies would be to weird plane-wise.
I think it will happen if they ever do a commander focused supplemental set. I'm doubtful as well but I think Kamigawa has ended up more popular (rose tinted glasses) in modern magic, but not enough to fully return to so I could see it happen.
Well, let's just take... I'll go with Chinese Mythology. We could substitute any outside of the big three (Greek, Egyptian, Norse, I could see Celtic on here too and Roman is basically Greek for the purposes Wizards is looking at). The vast majority of people who play Magic in the US are going to know very vague general stuff. Dragons, monks, qi, stuff like that. Even ignoring whether or not Wizards would want to do a Plane with this as the basis, you're not going to make a very good plane with just that at the forefront. What I'm saying is that instead they'll just make the plane based on something else but with a Chinese Mythology coating. Like Kaladesh. Inventor artifact world with an Indian coating. Or Tarkir. Warring world with the dragon conflict, broad Asian coating. Things like that. We won't see top-down, in-depth Chinese Mythology world. We won't see top-down, in-depth any Mythology world except for Greek, Egyptian, and Norse (again, maybe Celtic and for what they're doing Roman=Greek). It's too "weird". It's too foreign.
Kamigawa, for what it's worth, is exactly the kind of plane I'm talking about as too "weird". Wizards has rather explicitly said as much that it's a mistake. Theros, even with a setting that people know well, still toned down the obscure references very strongly. Amonkhet? I'd argue that it's less Egyptian-focused than Theros was Greek-focused. So if the really big, well-known mythologies are too obscure to have a strong, in-depth mythology-based plane, I don't see them doing any other places. They'll still borrow from the mythologies, but it's not going to be as strong.
Hoping this makes sense, I'm having a hard time wording it right. But I'm arguing that there is a strong difference in terms of Kamigawa compared to Theros and Amonkhet, and even in terms of Theros to Amonkhet. Individual cards may have the odd stuff, but the planes as a whole are different in terms of how they treat the mythology they're working with.
Has it been discussed that the trials are a way for Bolas to make more planeswalkers?
It seems as though everyone on this plane is in their tip top condition devoted to the trials. Usually somebody with a spark is an exceptional individual with heightened abilities which leads me to believe the trials are a way to test how skilled and individual is while the finale they receive which is being killed by the god is what makes their spark ignite.
Yes, it is a popular theory.
I do not subscribe to the theory at all for a couple reasons. First, the feel of the story, the cards, and the flavor text seems to be pointing at just a simple undead army. The second big flaw is that an undiscovered spark is not correlated with power (or ability to win the trials) at all. People with the spark are more likely to be eaten by a croc during the green trial than to be the winner facing the red God.
Has it been discussed that the trials are a way for Bolas to make more planeswalkers?
It seems as though everyone on this plane is in their tip top condition devoted to the trials. Usually somebody with a spark is an exceptional individual with heightened abilities which leads me to believe the trials are a way to test how skilled and individual is while the finale they receive which is being killed by the god is what makes their spark ignite.
Yes, it is a popular theory.
I do not subscribe to the theory at all for a couple reasons. First, the feel of the story, the cards, and the flavor text seems to be pointing at just a simple undead army. The second big flaw is that an undiscovered spark is not correlated with power (or ability to win the trials) at all. People with the spark are more likely to be eaten by a croc during the green trial than to be the winner facing the red God.
More like "the Sparked are no more likely to win than anybody else", but yes, I subscribe to your logic as well. But! Due to the laws of narrative causality as explained by the good Dr. Pratchett, I have little doubt that a Worthy is going to ascend as a planeswalker during HOU or somesuch.
Two things - on the culture and "weird" debate, I find it interesting that Egyptian mythology is considered to be a one of the 'Big 3' in the West (just the USA?) alongside Greco-Roman and Norse mythology. I would argue that it's really Ancient Egyptian culture (or at least a Hollywood version thereof) that people are familiar with. How much of Egyptian mythology do most people really know? Sure - Ra, Osiris, Set, Thoth, Bast, Anubis (especially) and animal-headed gods in general turns, maybe the Book of the Dead... but after that, how much is really familiar? How many mythological entities from Egyptian mythology other than the Gods themselves and the Sphinx is the average person - even the average Fantasy buff or role-player - really aware of? (Am I selling everyone short here? That's not my intention.)
On the story side - Throne of the God-Pharaoh names four Hours - the Hour of Revelation, Hour of Glory, Hour of Promise, and Hour of Eternity. I'm assuming Hour of Devastation is the final, fifth Hour - perhaps unknown to the average citizen of Amonkhet? Any thoughts about this? Does each Hour correspond to a God?
Two things - on the culture and "weird" debate, I find it interesting that Egyptian mythology is considered to be a one of the 'Big 3' in the West (just the USA?) alongside Greco-Roman and Norse mythology. I would argue that it's really Ancient Egyptian culture (or at least a Hollywood version thereof) that people are familiar with. How much of Egyptian mythology do most people really know? Sure - Ra, Osiris, Set, Thoth, Bast, Anubis (especially) and animal-headed gods in general turns, maybe the Book of the Dead... but after that, how much is really familiar? How many mythological entities from Egyptian mythology other than the Gods themselves and the Sphinx is the average person - even the average Fantasy buff or role-player - really aware of? (Am I selling everyone short here? That's not my intention.)
On the story side - Throne of the God-Pharaoh names four Hours - the Hour of Revelation, Hour of Glory, Hour of Promise, and Hour of Eternity. I'm assuming Hour of Devastation is the final, fifth Hour - perhaps unknown to the average citizen of Amonkhet? Any thoughts about this? Does each Hour correspond to a God?
I don't think you're wrong, in regards to "How much we know." It's probably pretty safe to argue that the only reason it's even known as much as it is, is because of Egypt's interactions with Rome. Subsequently, what U.S. people are familiar with is the cultural equivalent of a game of telephone, unless you start digging. It's probably true for a fair amount of Greco-Roman influenced culture, but I'm just a dumb yank, so I have no real frame of reference.
On the other topic, I think the Hour of Eternity and the Hour of Devastation are one and the same. Just, for obvious reasons, Bolas didn't want to tell the citizens. Planar (or even just civilization) destruction is, I think, probably a pretty Eternal thing.
Two things - on the culture and "weird" debate, I find it interesting that Egyptian mythology is considered to be a one of the 'Big 3' in the West (just the USA?) alongside Greco-Roman and Norse mythology. I would argue that it's really Ancient Egyptian culture (or at least a Hollywood version thereof) that people are familiar with. How much of Egyptian mythology do most people really know? Sure - Ra, Osiris, Set, Thoth, Bast, Anubis (especially) and animal-headed gods in general turns, maybe the Book of the Dead... but after that, how much is really familiar? How many mythological entities from Egyptian mythology other than the Gods themselves and the Sphinx is the average person - even the average Fantasy buff or role-player - really aware of? (Am I selling everyone short here? That's not my intention.)
On the story side - Throne of the God-Pharaoh names four Hours - the Hour of Revelation, Hour of Glory, Hour of Promise, and Hour of Eternity. I'm assuming Hour of Devastation is the final, fifth Hour - perhaps unknown to the average citizen of Amonkhet? Any thoughts about this? Does each Hour correspond to a God?
I mean, I call it the big three, but I base this off of what I see in terms of the prevalence of them. Though really it's Greek > anything else. As far as non-Abrahamic mythology goes Greek is easily the most well-known in Western cultures.
Though more I was saying big three because it was to frame those three cultures as being different from the rest in terms of likeliness for Wizards to do a top-down plane about them.
Two things - on the culture and "weird" debate, I find it interesting that Egyptian mythology is considered to be a one of the 'Big 3' in the West (just the USA?) alongside Greco-Roman and Norse mythology. I would argue that it's really Ancient Egyptian culture (or at least a Hollywood version thereof) that people are familiar with. How much of Egyptian mythology do most people really know? Sure - Ra, Osiris, Set, Thoth, Bast, Anubis (especially) and animal-headed gods in general turns, maybe the Book of the Dead... but after that, how much is really familiar? How many mythological entities from Egyptian mythology other than the Gods themselves and the Sphinx is the average person - even the average Fantasy buff or role-player - really aware of? (Am I selling everyone short here? That's not my intention.)
On the story side - Throne of the God-Pharaoh names four Hours - the Hour of Revelation, Hour of Glory, Hour of Promise, and Hour of Eternity. I'm assuming Hour of Devastation is the final, fifth Hour - perhaps unknown to the average citizen of Amonkhet? Any thoughts about this? Does each Hour correspond to a God?
I don't think that each hour corresponds with a God necessarily, but I do think that Devastation is a fifth Hour unknown to the civilization at large.
The plane seems to run off of cycles of five*; Five Gods, Five Trials, Five Cartouches... it only makes sense for there to actually be five Hours.
*Yes I realize this is to fit with the five colors, but if you're running a numerical theme you may as well stick with it, there's no reason to ditch it for one aspect of the story/plot.
I wouldn't really agree that they carry out the same purpose at all, but I don't really see that argument going anywhere positive. But the point more succinctly is just that they don't want to deal with any of the Abrahamic religions or Hinduism, the rest is probably seen as fair game to them. Of course, given that they also want to avoid anything that is too "weird" for your average American most religions are fairly safe.
It not that they can't use things that are "weird" they are just not going to over do like they did with Kamigawa. Theros used things like Centaurs and Hydras (which are things people generally know about with Greek mythology) in large numbers but still added in creatures from Greek mythology that people don't right away realize are greek with Hundred-Handed One, Breaching Hippocamp and Loathsome Catoblepas. Serpopards are pretty unknown but we got one (and most likely only one) on a card for Amonkhet. If we see Kamigawa as a set again* I'd think we'd see the wierd unfamiliar Kami again just not as large of a number as they did the first time round.
*I don't believe we will ever see a standard set on Kamigawa but I think we could see a supplement produce set there like Fiora.
That's why I was talking about Planes as a whole and not individual cards.
Can you elaborate? Not quite get what you mean by some mythologies would be to weird plane-wise.
And I'm doubtful to is getting Kamigawa the supplemental set, but maybe.
I think it will happen if they ever do a commander focused supplemental set. I'm doubtful as well but I think Kamigawa has ended up more popular (rose tinted glasses) in modern magic, but not enough to fully return to so I could see it happen.
Well, let's just take... I'll go with Chinese Mythology. We could substitute any outside of the big three (Greek, Egyptian, Norse, I could see Celtic on here too and Roman is basically Greek for the purposes Wizards is looking at). The vast majority of people who play Magic in the US are going to know very vague general stuff. Dragons, monks, qi, stuff like that. Even ignoring whether or not Wizards would want to do a Plane with this as the basis, you're not going to make a very good plane with just that at the forefront. What I'm saying is that instead they'll just make the plane based on something else but with a Chinese Mythology coating. Like Kaladesh. Inventor artifact world with an Indian coating. Or Tarkir. Warring world with the dragon conflict, broad Asian coating. Things like that. We won't see top-down, in-depth Chinese Mythology world. We won't see top-down, in-depth any Mythology world except for Greek, Egyptian, and Norse (again, maybe Celtic and for what they're doing Roman=Greek). It's too "weird". It's too foreign.
Kamigawa, for what it's worth, is exactly the kind of plane I'm talking about as too "weird". Wizards has rather explicitly said as much that it's a mistake. Theros, even with a setting that people know well, still toned down the obscure references very strongly. Amonkhet? I'd argue that it's less Egyptian-focused than Theros was Greek-focused. So if the really big, well-known mythologies are too obscure to have a strong, in-depth mythology-based plane, I don't see them doing any other places. They'll still borrow from the mythologies, but it's not going to be as strong.
Hoping this makes sense, I'm having a hard time wording it right. But I'm arguing that there is a strong difference in terms of Kamigawa compared to Theros and Amonkhet, and even in terms of Theros to Amonkhet. Individual cards may have the odd stuff, but the planes as a whole are different in terms of how they treat the mythology they're working with.
1) I think you might a little harsh on what cultures and ideas people are able to pick up on, with both Moana and Pokemon Sun and Moon showing off Polynesian culture and mythology that people seemed really respond too.
2) From what I've read on the subject, Wizards said the mistake was overusing the unfamiliar elements and not using enough of the familiar elements in Kamigawa, not using Shinto mythology and Japanese culture in general.
3) On how differ the worlds are, well yes they are very different since wizard designed each world in a different manner. Kamigawa as I said above was designed to be as close to the source material as it could to a point where unless you knew a lot about shinto mythology you didn't get the references. Theros while very close to the source material but its own elements added, such as there being more then one Minotuar, Sphinx, Hydra, etc, Gorgans being immune to each other stare, the additions of Leonin and Returned etc as well as focus more on what the public knew about Greek mythology more, then the more obscure stuff. Amonkhet isn't just Egyptian mythology but also mixed with Bolas world, meaning it isn't just one top down focus like the other two mythology worlds.*
Top-down design is still a new thing for wizards since we have only had really 4 block that are top down (Abrain Nights block which i count as .5 since it was pure copy and paste, Kamigawa, Innistrad, Theros, SoI as a return set is more bottom up according to Maro but I think since its a retune to top down world it counts as .5) with Amonkhet still in the process of being reveled. It just looks like Wizards is still figuring out the line of originality, familiar elements and being true to the mythological sources for top down design. Innistrad (I think) was easier since Gothic horror and its cousin cosmic horror, are genres and aren't just from "one source" like mythologies giving their elements a more familiar tone to the average person.
*I know your already ready to write off Amonkhet when they said now it was part top down Bolas world but I would like to wait until the end of the block as well as know what the creative process what like for Amonkhet since all the "it part Bolas world" is from designers and we haven't heard how creative went about this, to say how much is Bolas world and how much is Egyptian world. Also I find it funny how people had complained that Theros was too copy and paste but now we are having a discussion on how Amonkhet isn't seemingly true enough Egyptian world.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I don't buy the "Amonkhet is a zombie factory for Bolas" theory at all. First of all, he is not a necromancer. Second of all, there are far better ways to make zombies than a convoluted plan of trials and promises of rebirth.
The thing about the mummies is that, unlike most zombies (and especially zombie tokens) they retain their original characteristics. Temmet's mummified token does everything Temmet would do. That suggests to me that the ritual they use somehow keeps the corpses soul intact, instead of just animating it as a dead puppet.
Which is actually horrifying on several levels, if you think about it.
Haven't seen this posted in the last two pages, so posting here, based on flavor texts (Maybe SPOILER below? Depending on spoiler sensitivity):
"When the Second Sun rests between the horns on the horizon, so begins the Hour of Revelation. Then the Hour of Glory, the Hour of Promise, and finally the Hour of Eternity."
(Hour of Revelation?)
"In the Hour of Glory, the gods and the untested will prove their worth before the God-Pharaoh."
"When the Hour of Promise arrives, the God-Pharaoh will tear down the Hekma, for its protection will be needed no longer."
"When all doubts have melted away, the worthy will meet the Hour of Eternity and earn a place at the God-Pharaoh's side."
(If these are spoilers, can a mod add the spoiler brackets? On my phone, can't see any option to bracket off and don't know the bracket offhand.)
EDIT: Forgot to mention the Hours remind me of the Winds of Keld from Prophecy set.
1) I think you might a little harsh on what cultures and ideas people are able to pick up on, with both Moana and Pokemon Sun and Moon showing off Polynesian culture and mythology that people seemed really respond too.
2) From what I've read on the subject, Wizards said the mistake was overusing the unfamiliar elements and not using enough of the familiar elements in Kamigawa, not using Shinto mythology and Japanese culture in general.
3) On how differ the worlds are, well yes they are very different since wizard designed each world in a different manner. Kamigawa as I said above was designed to be as close to the source material as it could to a point where unless you knew a lot about shinto mythology you didn't get the references. Theros while very close to the source material but its own elements added, such as there being more then one Minotuar, Sphinx, Hydra, etc, Gorgans being immune to each other stare, the additions of Leonin and Returned etc as well as focus more on what the public knew about Greek mythology more, then the more obscure stuff. Amonkhet isn't just Egyptian mythology but also mixed with Bolas world, meaning it isn't just one top down focus like the other two mythology worlds.*
Top-down design is still a new thing for wizards since we have only had really 4 block that are top down (Abrain Nights block which i count as .5 since it was pure copy and paste, Kamigawa, Innistrad, Theros, SoI as a return set is more bottom up according to Maro but I think since its a retune to top down world it counts as .5) with Amonkhet still in the process of being reveled. It just looks like Wizards is still figuring out the line of originality, familiar elements and being true to the mythological sources for top down design. Innistrad (I think) was easier since Gothic horror and its cousin cosmic horror, are genres and aren't just from "one source" like mythologies giving their elements a more familiar tone to the average person.
*I know your already ready to write off Amonkhet when they said now it was part top down Bolas world but I would like to wait until the end of the block as well as know what the creative process what like for Amonkhet since all the "it part Bolas world" is from designers and we haven't heard how creative went about this, to say how much is Bolas world and how much is Egyptian world. Also I find it funny how people had complained that Theros was too copy and paste but now we are having a discussion on how Amonkhet isn't seemingly true enough Egyptian world.
1. I would argue that Sun and Moon doesn't have any real connection to Polynesian Mythology except in the general sense of where it's located. Sun and Moon is closer to Lilo and Stitch than Moana if we're talking Disney movies. And we've had Japanese movies do really well here in the past, yet Japanese Mythology is too much.
2. They've said Kitsune might not show up for a new Japanese Mythology plane, and they're arguably the most well-known creature from Japanese Mythology. If Kitsune aren't a guarantee, I don't hjave any hope for them doing Japanese Mythology. Note that they can, and likely will, do a new Japanese plane, but it'll resemble Sengoku Basara more than Kamigawa.
3. I wouldn't really count multiple creatures as being it's own twist, but yes, I know that Theros is different from Kamigawa. That's... kind of my point. The entire point on what you're saying is only enforcing what I said. Other new planes for top-down are not going to be as close, and even Greek Mythology wound up dealing with the low-hanging fruit. The low-hanging fruit for almost all other cultures they could do, when looking at their mythology, is a lot higher up than the stuff that Theros did as a general rule. Which, again, is why I'm saying that any future places aren't going to be built as top-down X mythology, they'll be built either top-down or bottom-up Y with a coat of X. Another good example is Ravnica and the Slavic aspect.
Neat idea. But given the context, you should actually LOSE the game when having all five cartouches
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
Victory is in the eyes of the believer. Their death is winning for them so a Maze's End is flavorfully correct.
So you're saying they must construct additional pylons?
Well duh it's mostly a business decision, every decision a business makes is a business decision. Mostly I just wanted to point out that Wizards explicitly stated there would be no Exodus material so we shouldn't expect the biblical plaques, and to explain their rationale.
Really the borders between fantasy and religion are very thin, the major difference being that one is sincerely believed in by many people and the other isn't. They both carry out largely the same purpose and the one is derived from the other. If you try to portray many worlds with a variety of cultural inspirations while at the same time trying not to seem like you're trivializing those cultures and peoples' sincere beliefs you're going to run into a ton of contradictions.
I mean, even Amonkhet isn't Egyptian World, it's Bolas' Egyptian World. If Egyptian Mythology, one of the big three (along with Greek and Norse) isn't enough to get a plane all to itself I don't see that changing for any other culture. I expect Norse World will manage to be it's own thing probably, though I guess it could be Phyrexians vs. Norse or some such, but beyond that? Any other top-down stuff I imagine is either going to be really shallow or mixed with something else and not the primary focus.
It not that they can't use things that are "weird" they are just not going to over do like they did with Kamigawa. Theros used things like Centaurs and Hydras (which are things people generally know about with Greek mythology) in large numbers but still added in creatures from Greek mythology that people don't right away realize are greek with Hundred-Handed One, Breaching Hippocamp and Loathsome Catoblepas. Serpopards are pretty unknown but we got one (and most likely only one) on a card for Amonkhet. If we see Kamigawa as a set again* I'd think we'd see the wierd unfamiliar Kami again just not as large of a number as they did the first time round.
*I don't believe we will ever see a standard set on Kamigawa but I think we could see a supplement produce set there like Fiora.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
It seems as though everyone on this plane is in their tip top condition devoted to the trials. Usually somebody with a spark is an exceptional individual with heightened abilities which leads me to believe the trials are a way to test how skilled and individual is while the finale they receive which is being killed by the god is what makes their spark ignite.
I wonder what the Worthy dead look like.
That's why I was talking about Planes as a whole and not individual cards. And I'm doubtful to is getting Kamigawa the supplemental set, but maybe.
Can you elaborate? Not quite get what you mean by some mythologies would be to weird plane-wise.
I think it will happen if they ever do a commander focused supplemental set. I'm doubtful as well but I think Kamigawa has ended up more popular (rose tinted glasses) in modern magic, but not enough to fully return to so I could see it happen.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
How often does Bolas come back? How long is the second sun cycle?
Is this the first or fiftieth version of Amonkhet?
Are the outlands ruins just prior incarnations?
Are there older people on Amonkhet?
Where is Razaketh?
Does Bolas just show up like every fifty years or whatever to check up on the plane? Eat the energy take the worthy destroy everything and restart again?
Just questions I have
And spoiler: The entire plane is built on lies.
Well, let's just take... I'll go with Chinese Mythology. We could substitute any outside of the big three (Greek, Egyptian, Norse, I could see Celtic on here too and Roman is basically Greek for the purposes Wizards is looking at). The vast majority of people who play Magic in the US are going to know very vague general stuff. Dragons, monks, qi, stuff like that. Even ignoring whether or not Wizards would want to do a Plane with this as the basis, you're not going to make a very good plane with just that at the forefront. What I'm saying is that instead they'll just make the plane based on something else but with a Chinese Mythology coating. Like Kaladesh. Inventor artifact world with an Indian coating. Or Tarkir. Warring world with the dragon conflict, broad Asian coating. Things like that. We won't see top-down, in-depth Chinese Mythology world. We won't see top-down, in-depth any Mythology world except for Greek, Egyptian, and Norse (again, maybe Celtic and for what they're doing Roman=Greek). It's too "weird". It's too foreign.
Kamigawa, for what it's worth, is exactly the kind of plane I'm talking about as too "weird". Wizards has rather explicitly said as much that it's a mistake. Theros, even with a setting that people know well, still toned down the obscure references very strongly. Amonkhet? I'd argue that it's less Egyptian-focused than Theros was Greek-focused. So if the really big, well-known mythologies are too obscure to have a strong, in-depth mythology-based plane, I don't see them doing any other places. They'll still borrow from the mythologies, but it's not going to be as strong.
Hoping this makes sense, I'm having a hard time wording it right. But I'm arguing that there is a strong difference in terms of Kamigawa compared to Theros and Amonkhet, and even in terms of Theros to Amonkhet. Individual cards may have the odd stuff, but the planes as a whole are different in terms of how they treat the mythology they're working with.
Yes, it is a popular theory.
I do not subscribe to the theory at all for a couple reasons. First, the feel of the story, the cards, and the flavor text seems to be pointing at just a simple undead army. The second big flaw is that an undiscovered spark is not correlated with power (or ability to win the trials) at all. People with the spark are more likely to be eaten by a croc during the green trial than to be the winner facing the red God.
More like "the Sparked are no more likely to win than anybody else", but yes, I subscribe to your logic as well. But! Due to the laws of narrative causality as explained by the good Dr. Pratchett, I have little doubt that a Worthy is going to ascend as a planeswalker during HOU or somesuch.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
On the story side - Throne of the God-Pharaoh names four Hours - the Hour of Revelation, Hour of Glory, Hour of Promise, and Hour of Eternity. I'm assuming Hour of Devastation is the final, fifth Hour - perhaps unknown to the average citizen of Amonkhet? Any thoughts about this? Does each Hour correspond to a God?
I don't think you're wrong, in regards to "How much we know." It's probably pretty safe to argue that the only reason it's even known as much as it is, is because of Egypt's interactions with Rome. Subsequently, what U.S. people are familiar with is the cultural equivalent of a game of telephone, unless you start digging. It's probably true for a fair amount of Greco-Roman influenced culture, but I'm just a dumb yank, so I have no real frame of reference.
On the other topic, I think the Hour of Eternity and the Hour of Devastation are one and the same. Just, for obvious reasons, Bolas didn't want to tell the citizens. Planar (or even just civilization) destruction is, I think, probably a pretty Eternal thing.
I mean, I call it the big three, but I base this off of what I see in terms of the prevalence of them. Though really it's Greek > anything else. As far as non-Abrahamic mythology goes Greek is easily the most well-known in Western cultures.
Though more I was saying big three because it was to frame those three cultures as being different from the rest in terms of likeliness for Wizards to do a top-down plane about them.
I don't think that each hour corresponds with a God necessarily, but I do think that Devastation is a fifth Hour unknown to the civilization at large.
The plane seems to run off of cycles of five*; Five Gods, Five Trials, Five Cartouches... it only makes sense for there to actually be five Hours.
*Yes I realize this is to fit with the five colors, but if you're running a numerical theme you may as well stick with it, there's no reason to ditch it for one aspect of the story/plot.
1) I think you might a little harsh on what cultures and ideas people are able to pick up on, with both Moana and Pokemon Sun and Moon showing off Polynesian culture and mythology that people seemed really respond too.
2) From what I've read on the subject, Wizards said the mistake was overusing the unfamiliar elements and not using enough of the familiar elements in Kamigawa, not using Shinto mythology and Japanese culture in general.
3) On how differ the worlds are, well yes they are very different since wizard designed each world in a different manner. Kamigawa as I said above was designed to be as close to the source material as it could to a point where unless you knew a lot about shinto mythology you didn't get the references. Theros while very close to the source material but its own elements added, such as there being more then one Minotuar, Sphinx, Hydra, etc, Gorgans being immune to each other stare, the additions of Leonin and Returned etc as well as focus more on what the public knew about Greek mythology more, then the more obscure stuff. Amonkhet isn't just Egyptian mythology but also mixed with Bolas world, meaning it isn't just one top down focus like the other two mythology worlds.*
Top-down design is still a new thing for wizards since we have only had really 4 block that are top down (Abrain Nights block which i count as .5 since it was pure copy and paste, Kamigawa, Innistrad, Theros, SoI as a return set is more bottom up according to Maro but I think since its a retune to top down world it counts as .5) with Amonkhet still in the process of being reveled. It just looks like Wizards is still figuring out the line of originality, familiar elements and being true to the mythological sources for top down design. Innistrad (I think) was easier since Gothic horror and its cousin cosmic horror, are genres and aren't just from "one source" like mythologies giving their elements a more familiar tone to the average person.
*I know your already ready to write off Amonkhet when they said now it was part top down Bolas world but I would like to wait until the end of the block as well as know what the creative process what like for Amonkhet since all the "it part Bolas world" is from designers and we haven't heard how creative went about this, to say how much is Bolas world and how much is Egyptian world. Also I find it funny how people had complained that Theros was too copy and paste but now we are having a discussion on how Amonkhet isn't seemingly true enough Egyptian world.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
The thing about the mummies is that, unlike most zombies (and especially zombie tokens) they retain their original characteristics. Temmet's mummified token does everything Temmet would do. That suggests to me that the ritual they use somehow keeps the corpses soul intact, instead of just animating it as a dead puppet.
Which is actually horrifying on several levels, if you think about it.
"When the Second Sun rests between the horns on the horizon, so begins the Hour of Revelation. Then the Hour of Glory, the Hour of Promise, and finally the Hour of Eternity."
(Hour of Revelation?)
"In the Hour of Glory, the gods and the untested will prove their worth before the God-Pharaoh."
"When the Hour of Promise arrives, the God-Pharaoh will tear down the Hekma, for its protection will be needed no longer."
"When all doubts have melted away, the worthy will meet the Hour of Eternity and earn a place at the God-Pharaoh's side."
(If these are spoilers, can a mod add the spoiler brackets? On my phone, can't see any option to bracket off and don't know the bracket offhand.)
EDIT: Forgot to mention the Hours remind me of the Winds of Keld from Prophecy set.
1. I would argue that Sun and Moon doesn't have any real connection to Polynesian Mythology except in the general sense of where it's located. Sun and Moon is closer to Lilo and Stitch than Moana if we're talking Disney movies. And we've had Japanese movies do really well here in the past, yet Japanese Mythology is too much.
2. They've said Kitsune might not show up for a new Japanese Mythology plane, and they're arguably the most well-known creature from Japanese Mythology. If Kitsune aren't a guarantee, I don't hjave any hope for them doing Japanese Mythology. Note that they can, and likely will, do a new Japanese plane, but it'll resemble Sengoku Basara more than Kamigawa.
3. I wouldn't really count multiple creatures as being it's own twist, but yes, I know that Theros is different from Kamigawa. That's... kind of my point. The entire point on what you're saying is only enforcing what I said. Other new planes for top-down are not going to be as close, and even Greek Mythology wound up dealing with the low-hanging fruit. The low-hanging fruit for almost all other cultures they could do, when looking at their mythology, is a lot higher up than the stuff that Theros did as a general rule. Which, again, is why I'm saying that any future places aren't going to be built as top-down X mythology, they'll be built either top-down or bottom-up Y with a coat of X. Another good example is Ravnica and the Slavic aspect.