It would be so amazing if he was a new PW. I love his art so would definitely want to play one. What colors (as in the color pie) do you suspect he'll be? Hopefully nothing with Black so I can play him in my Tiro deck. The fact he's the lone one on the stairs suggests he's ascending to PW to me.
Funny how the gods here are human/more humanoid than the Theros gods. Which should have been the opposite IMO when being closer to the source material. Creative license, based on Theros races, shaped by devotion etc. - yeah yeah yeah. Not the point.
It would be so amazing if he was a new PW. I love his art so would definitely want to play one. What colors (as in the color pie) do you suspect he'll be? Hopefully nothing with Black so I can play him in my Tiro deck. The fact he's the lone one on the stairs suggests he's ascending to PW to me.
For color pie balancing we need a walkers who's G(/X) and a Walkers who is U(/X) or R(/X) since Gideon and Liliana take the W and B spots and Bolas can take the U or R spot depending on the the other walk.
Funny how the gods here are human/more humanoid than the Theros gods. Which should have been the opposite IMO when being closer to the source material. Creative license, based on Theros races, shaped by devotion etc. - yeah yeah yeah. Not the point.
Chill a bit dude we don't know if the any of the art is for the gods, planeswalkers or random card with good art.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
for the guy on the left as I feel flip-floppy.
is definitely party of the middle gir's color identity. Maybe or or neither.
vibe from the girl on the right.
I am hinging on left and right for possible planeswalkers as both, at the moment, seem right in my head.
At the time of designing Amonkhet, they would have thought that BFZ block, and Kiora with it, would have rotated out by the time of Amonkhet's release. That would leave a GU spot open in standard. Of course, BG and BR are available to. I'd say that BG is the most likely, followed by GU and then BR. The color scheme seems pretty GU but GU doesn't usually get warrior types. Idk.
What disturbs me is that that Gideon and Liliana received planeswalker decks over our new planeswalker (whether or not it is the guy on the pack art, I assume that we will get one). That implies that Gideon and Liliana will both be more plot-relevant than our new PW. Because we don't get enough of the Gatewatch already. Why the hell would anyone want to see more of a potentially interesting walker that we only get for one block rather than the same one-dimensional characters we are forced to see every damn block?
Of course, I could be wrong about the lack of plot relevance and I hope I am, but I have a bad feeling that we are going to see another character get the Arlinn/Saheeli treatment.
What disturbs me is that that Gideon and Liliana received planeswalker decks over our new planeswalker (whether or not it is the guy on the pack art, I assume that we will get one). That implies that Gideon and Liliana will both be more plot-relevant than our new PW.
Yes like how Nissa & Chandra and also with Tezzeret & Ajani were plot-relevant. And how those four got planeswalker decks.
Because we don't get enough of the Gatewatch already. Why the hell would anyone want to see more of a potentially interesting walker that we only get for one block rather than the same one-dimensional characters we are forced to see every damn block?
Of course, I could be wrong about the lack of plot relevance and I hope I am, but I have a bad feeling that we are going to see another character get the Arlinn/Saheeli treatment.
The opposite can be said of not having a constant within the story's focus and we are just left madly hoping from view point to view point. The current group we are following Weatherwatch/Gatelight. Plus, the planeswalkers do get love and attention by the fans whether or not they are within the Gateawtch. As they do get plenty of fan art and fanfiction and cosplays and buttons and keychains and more. All made by the fans. If I were WOTC I would view the Gatewatch more as a success with the returned love that the fans give through their various Vorthos creations.
What disturbs me is that that Gideon and Liliana received planeswalker decks over our new planeswalker (whether or not it is the guy on the pack art, I assume that we will get one). That implies that Gideon and Liliana will both be more plot-relevant than our new PW.
Yes like how Nissa & Chandra and also with Tezzeret & Ajani were plot-relevant. And how those four got planeswalker decks.
Right, and our Kaladesh natives, Saheeli and Dovin, didn’t. The former got completely screwed over in terms of time on-screen in the story in favor of the same characters we see every block, and the latter still could would have benefitted from a bigger role in the story.
Because we don't get enough of the Gatewatch already. Why the hell would anyone want to see more of a potentially interesting walker that we only get for one block rather than the same one-dimensional characters we are forced to see every damn block?
Of course, I could be wrong about the lack of plot relevance and I hope I am, but I have a bad feeling that we are going to see another character get the Arlinn/Saheeli treatment.
The opposite can be said of not having a constant within the story's focus and we are just left madly hoping from view point to view point. The current group we are following Weatherwatch/Gatelight. Plus, the planeswalkers do get love and attention by the fans whether or not they are within the Gateawtch. As they do get plenty of fan art and fanfiction and cosplays and buttons and keychains and more. All made by the fans. If I were WOTC I would view the Gatewatch more as a success with the returned love that the fans give through their various Vorthos creations.
So many things here.
I’m fine with a recurring cast if it’s implemented well. To me, that would entail:
1. Not seeing the same characters every block. Kaladesh should have been just Chandra, Nissa, and Liliana. But the whole gang had to come along. Hopefully they fix this in the future, but we already know that Amonkhet is not going to the place for that. (I do appreciate how they chose to exclude the one Gatewatch member that we haven’t already had a year and a half to get sick of /sarcasm.)
2. Not letting the Gatewatch steal attention away from the world around them and other, non-Gatewatch characters. This is pretty obviously an issue. Arlinn and Saheeli were robbed. We had a grand total of 2 stories in Kaladesh block without the Gatewatch.
3. Actually writing the characters well on a consistent basis. I cringe every time Chandra opens her mouth. The characters are one-dimensional and cartoonish and it makes me ashamed to read Magic’s story.
4. Giving us breaks from time to time. This should definitely include individual stories. (We got a fair number of non-Gatewatch stories in SOI, but Kaladesh? Not so much.) It would also to get breaks on a larger scale, as in entire blocks or at least the first set of the block. To be completely honest, the Gatewatch could have been excluded from SOI (with Tamiyo or an Innistrad native replacing Jace) and the Gatewatch could come in the second set to save everyone. It would have been a nice breather for everyone. But nope. We need them in every set.
Fan art and fanfiction are not what I’m looking for. The same goes for many others. I really don’t have the time or motivation to look for things that aren’t even canon and thus won’t pay off in future stories. On the other hand, some Magic story articles read like bad fanfiction anyway, so maybe I should reconsider.
The Gatewatch are a success in brand recognition but not in story quality. While there is a fair amount of fan-made content for the Gatewatch it is actually disproportionately low given how much Gatewatch we see. When the Gatewatch get a 100x as much story appearance as Tamiyo or Tibalt but only 5x as much appreciation by the fans, we know we have a problem. Many people actually want to see other characters, and they don’t want to see them shoved to side to make room for even more Gatewatch. I’m one of those people. Sue me.
[quote from="SultaiAscendancy »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-storyline/754032-amonkhet-general-discussion?comment=203"]What disturbs me is that that Gideon and Liliana received planeswalker decks over our new planeswalker (whether or not it is the guy on the pack art, I assume that we will get one). That implies that Gideon and Liliana will both be more plot-relevant than our new PW.
Yes like how Nissa & Chandra and also with Tezzeret & Ajani were plot-relevant. And how those four got planeswalker decks.
Right, and our Kaladesh natives, Saheeli and Dovin, didn’t. The former got completely screwed over in terms of time on-screen in the story in favor of the same characters we see every block, and the latter still could would have benefitted from a bigger role in the story.
[quote]
One the one hand I agree with this. I really liked Saheeli and Arlinn and do wish we had more screen time with them. However the screen time they got is a vast improvement to how some of the other walkers in past blocks got exposure.
In Tarkir Narrset got 2 stories from her pov and the rest where tied up in the main plot and Sorin had 2 that where basically the same story (sarin looks for Ugin) and only different from the timeline changes and Ugin while important to the story only really had two stories to show his character.
Theros Ashiok got two stories and played no part in the main storyline.
Vraska, Gideon and Domi each got 2 UR stories and didn't get any mention in the books.
Innistrad gave Tamiyo, Tibalt back round info and Sorin got a summary article and did nothing plot-wise really.
Gideon was there kinda in Zendikar storyline but it boiled down to being set up for the future.
Tezzeret had no impact what-so-ever on Alara.
Honesty only BtZ and SoM seemed liked all the walkers had storylines that you couldn't remove with out changing the story. So this isn't an issue with the gatewatch it is one that has been around awhile and see I listed above it *seems* to be getting better.
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Right, and our Kaladesh natives, Saheeli and Dovin, didn’t. The former got completely screwed over in terms of time on-screen in the story in favor of the same characters we see every block, and the latter still could would have benefited from a bigger role in the story.
You mean how Zendikar is Nissa Revane's home?
You mean how Innistrad was like Liliana Vess's home?
You mean how Kaladesh is Chandra's home?
So many things here. I’m fine with a recurring cast if it’s implemented well. To me, that would entail:
1. Not seeing the same characters every block. Kaladesh should have been just Chandra, Nissa, and Liliana. But the whole gang had to come along. Hopefully they fix this in the future, but we already know that Amonkhet is not going to the place for that. (I do appreciate how they chose to exclude the one Gatewatch member that we haven’t already had a year and a half to get sick of /sarcasm.)
This just sounds silly. Why would other Gatewatch members not respond to a distressed Gatewatch member about the lives of two other Gatewatch members whose lives are in danger? As it sounds like to me the vocalization of wanting Jace or Ajani or Gideon being apathetic to those around them.
2. Not letting the Gatewatch steal attention away from the world around them and other, non-Gatewatch characters. This is pretty obviously an issue. Arlinn and Saheeli were robbed. We had a grand total of 2 stories in Kaladesh block without the Gatewatch.
3. Actually writing the characters well on a consistent basis. I cringe every time Chandra opens her mouth. The characters are one-dimensional and cartoonish and it makes me ashamed to read Magic’s story.
???
You mean Kaladesh the plane that is Chandra's homeplane? Kaladesh the backstory for Chandra? Kaladesh the resolution to Chandra's troubled childhood with Baral? Kaladesh, where Chandra finally gets reunited with her mother she believed to be dead fortwelve years? Kaladesh where Chandra's father was murdered right in front of her? That. All of that was all unreasonable to focus on the person who is a native of that plane? Wow man, just wow. I just don't even.
Because I thought they actually added character growth to Chandra and Nissa. You can't grow characters beyond one-dimensional if we don't focus on them.
4. Giving us breaks from time to time. This should definitely include individual stories. (We got a fair number of non-Gatewatch stories in SOI, but Kaladesh? Not so much.) It would also to get breaks on a larger scale, as in entire blocks or at least the first set of the block. To be completely honest, the Gatewatch could have been excluded from SOI (with Tamiyo or an Innistrad native replacing Jace) and the Gatewatch could come in the second set to save everyone. It would have been a nice breather for everyone. But nope. We need them in every set.
Weatherlight, Urza and Yawgmoth. Four years.
Followed up by Odyssey and Onslaught. Two years.
Fan art and fanfiction are not what I’m looking for. The same goes for many others. I really don’t have the time or motivation to look for things that aren’t even canon and thus won’t pay off in future stories.
Hmm negatory. What keeps a story alive is people giving fan-creations say fanart of their favorite characters. Without that among a long list of other Vorthosian-activities, the fictional world falls into obscurity to not be spoken of again. The Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, the Twin Towers, Return of the King, The Silmarillion?. Those books would not have survived if people hadn't made songs, art, costumes, movies, etc without the love of the fans. Canon and Fanon really don't matter for personal enjoyment and trying to hold one over the other just is nonsensical as its a symbiotic relationship.
On the other hand, some Magic story articles read like bad fanfiction anyway, so maybe I should reconsider.
Wow that was a really rude thing to say about the writers. There is plenty of good fanfiction out there and its not the equivalent of Twilight or Fifty Shades (both being publicized fanfiction). Also the writing has improved since BFZ. Also you are aware their are 130,000 length-long novels that are fanfiction, good fanfiction, that are for free and were hand-crafted with love and care right? I mean AER and KLD had for instance Chris L'Etoile writing good pieces. You going to tell me his work is "bad fanfiction"?
As your comment reminds me of how bad it is with the Kataangers Vs Zutarians. They can't just appreciate the work that they and others create, they got to tear down others because of this extremely bad notion of "Canon Vs Fanon".
The Gatewatch are a success in brand recognition but not in story quality. While there is a fair amount of fan-made content for the Gatewatch it is actually disproportionately low given how much Gatewatch we see. When the Gatewatch get a 100x as much story appearance as Tamiyo or Tibalt but only 5x as much appreciation by the fans, we know we have a problem. Many people actually want to see other characters, and they don’t want to see them shoved to side to make room for even more Gatewatch. I’m one of those people. Sue me.
I mean did you know Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded is actually a highly beloved character and gets a lot of fan-creations centered around him that aren't even romantic or raunchy? Same with Dack Fayden, Ral Zarek, etc.
Also let me just say, its a bit unpleasant to read this as it feels like needless bashing for the sake of bashing that I've seen others make that really adds nothing constructive. At least its not filled with the dribble that is: "Kill the gatewatch members! Kill the gatewatch members! We want new characters!"
Very. Could be a reference to Ammut while doing the Theros thing and not making it a legendary. Or it could just be how the dragons on Amonkhet are like. Either works for me.
Right, and our Kaladesh natives, Saheeli and Dovin, didn’t. The former got completely screwed over in terms of time on-screen in the story in favor of the same characters we see every block, and the latter still could would have benefited from a bigger role in the story.
You mean how Zendikar is Nissa Revane's home?
You mean how Innistrad was like Liliana Vess's home?
You mean how Kaladesh is Chandra's home?
Exactly zero people are complaining that Nissa, Liliana, and Chandra need more attention in the story. The same can't be said for most non-Gatewatch walkers even on their own planes for their own introductions. There's a problem here.
So many things here. I’m fine with a recurring cast if it’s implemented well. To me, that would entail:
1. Not seeing the same characters every block. Kaladesh should have been just Chandra, Nissa, and Liliana. But the whole gang had to come along. Hopefully they fix this in the future, but we already know that Amonkhet is not going to the place for that. (I do appreciate how they chose to exclude the one Gatewatch member that we haven’t already had a year and a half to get sick of /sarcasm.)
This just sounds silly. Why would other Gatewatch members not respond to a distressed Gatewatch member about the lives of two other Gatewatch members whose lives are in danger? As it sounds like to me the vocalization of wanting Jace or Ajani or Gideon being apathetic to those around them.
Unlike Eldrazi titans, Tezzeret was not a huge threat that needed everyone there to fight him. In fact, Liliana almost did defeated him alone. Her, Chandra, Nissa, Ajani, and all their allies could have done it without Jace and Gidein easily. Jace and Gideon were supposed to busy on Ravnica with Guildpact work and fighting Vraska and it should have stayed that way.
Notice how not every MCU movie (which WotC is not-so-subtly trying to imitate) has every Avenger in it, even if backup would be helpful, because they are doing other things at that time. Magic can and should imitate this with ease.
2. Not letting the Gatewatch steal attention away from the world around them and other, non-Gatewatch characters. This is pretty obviously an issue. Arlinn and Saheeli were robbed. We had a grand total of 2 stories in Kaladesh block without the Gatewatch.
3. Actually writing the characters well on a consistent basis. I cringe every time Chandra opens her mouth. The characters are one-dimensional and cartoonish and it makes me ashamed to read Magic’s story.
???
You mean Kaladesh the plane that is Chandra's homeplane? Kaladesh the backstory for Chandra? Kaladesh the resolution to Chandra's troubled childhood with Baral? Kaladesh, where Chandra finally gets reunited with her mother she believed to be dead fortwelve years? Kaladesh where Chandra's father was murdered right in front of her? That. All of that was all unreasonable to focus on the person who is a native of that plane? Wow man, just wow. I just don't even.
Because I thought they actually added character growth to Chandra and Nissa. You can't grow characters beyond one-dimensional if we don't focus on them.
Chandra could have had her story arc without draining focus away from the surrounding world and characters. That's what Sarkhan did in KTK. It was his homeplane where he had lots of history. He got to go through the block's main plot tying up loose ends and growing as a character along the way. Yet we still saw plenty of clans, khans, and dragons.
The Gatewatch seems to be one-dimensional by design. They have one primary, color-based trait that shapes everything they say and do. Jace is smart, Chandra is emotional, etc. They are making small developments but not any real changes because they want a bunch of easily-identifiable color mascots.
4. Giving us breaks from time to time. This should definitely include individual stories. (We got a fair number of non-Gatewatch stories in SOI, but Kaladesh? Not so much.) It would also to get breaks on a larger scale, as in entire blocks or at least the first set of the block. To be completely honest, the Gatewatch could have been excluded from SOI (with Tamiyo or an Innistrad native replacing Jace) and the Gatewatch could come in the second set to save everyone. It would have been a nice breather for everyone. But nope. We need them in every set.
Weatherlight, Urza and Yawgmoth. Four years.
Followed up by Odyssey and Onslaught. Two years.
Not comparable at all for a number of reasons. This is a different time. Gameplay-story integration is at an all time high. Back then, your average non-Vorthos could hardly tell you who Urza or Yawgmoth was. Now, those same people are very much aware of the Gatewatch and many our sick of it.
Fan art and fanfiction are not what I’m looking for. The same goes for many others. I really don’t have the time or motivation to look for things that aren’t even canon and thus won’t pay off in future stories.
Hmm negatory. What keeps a story alive is people giving fan-creations say fanart of their favorite characters. Without that among a long list of other Vorthosian-activities, the fictional world falls into obscurity to not be spoken of again. The Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, the Twin Towers, Return of the King, The Silmarillion?. Those books would not have survived if people hadn't made songs, art, costumes, movies, etc without the love of the fans. Canon and Fanon really don't matter for personal enjoyment and trying to hold one over the other just is nonsensical as its a symbiotic relationship.
Canon and fanon are equal? Really? So some random, poorly written fanfic with Frodo f***ing Sam or worse is the equivalent of LotR? Are you kidding me?
I'm not saying that all fanfiction is bad, but it is secondary to the canon. The fanon only exists because of canon. Many people read canon and not fanon, but not vice versa.
On the other hand, some Magic story articles read like bad fanfiction anyway, so maybe I should reconsider.
Wow that was a really rude thing to say about the writers. There is plenty of good fanfiction out there and its not the equivalent of Twilight or Fifty Shades (both being publicized fanfiction). Also the writing has improved since BFZ. Also you are aware their are 130,000 length-long novels that are fanfiction, good fanfiction, that are for free and were hand-crafted with love and care right? I mean AER and KLD had for instance Chris L'Etoile writing good pieces. You going to tell me his work is "bad fanfiction"?
Woah, triggered much? I take it you either write fanfiction or read a lot of it? I think I hit a nerve there. Sorry.
Note that I said bad fanfiction, implying that a good variety also exists. There is a spectrum, as with all things. I also said it about some stories, not all. Obviously I'm not talking about L'Etoile's work, which is some of the best.
But come on. You were reading those BFZ stories. You can't honestly tell me that's quality writing, can you?
As your comment reminds me of how bad it is with the Kataangers Vs Zutarians. They can't just appreciate the work that they and others create, they got to tear down others because of this extremely bad notion of "Canon Vs Fanon".
No clue what you're talking about with Kataangers vs Zutarians, sorry. I never said that canon opposes fanon. All I said was that canon comes first. I, and most others, read MtG canon but not fanon. That is all. Ok?
The Gatewatch are a success in brand recognition but not in story quality. While there is a fair amount of fan-made content for the Gatewatch it is actually disproportionately low given how much Gatewatch we see. When the Gatewatch get a 100x as much story appearance as Tamiyo or Tibalt but only 5x as much appreciation by the fans, we know we have a problem. Many people actually want to see other characters, and they don’t want to see them shoved to side to make room for even more Gatewatch. I’m one of those people. Sue me.
I mean did you know Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded is actually a highly beloved character and gets a lot of fan-creations centered around him that aren't even romantic or raunchy? Same with Dack Fayden, Ral Zarek, etc.
I did know that, actually. That's why I used him as an example. He has a surprisingly high reputation among fans for having so much less story appearences (and card power) than the Gatewatch. The point is, maybe they Gatewatch members are only so "beloved" because they are so overused. If Chandra and Tibalt got equal time in the story, I bet that Tibalt would get more attention from fans.
Also let me just say, its a bit unpleasant to read this as it feels like needless bashing for the sake of bashing that I've seen others make that really adds nothing constructive. At least its not filled with the dribble that is: "Kill the gatewatch members! Kill the gatewatch members! We want new characters!"
I never said to kill them. I actually gave constructive criticism for how the Gatewatch could be implemented better. I also explained my motivation for posting this. It's pretty clearly not bashing for the sake of bashing.
Unlike Eldrazi titans, Tezzeret was not a huge threat that needed everyone there to fight him. In fact, Liliana almost did defeated him alone. Her, Chandra, Nissa, Ajani, and all their allies could have done it without Jace and Gidein easily. Jace and Gideon were supposed to busy on Ravnica with Guildpact work and fighting Vraska and it should have stayed that way.
Notice how not every MCU movie (which WotC is not-so-subtly trying to imitate) has every Avenger in it, even if backup would be helpful, because they are doing other things at that time. Magic can and should imitate this with ease.
You forget about Dovan Baan or just didn't simply mention him. His actions for dismantling the Hope of Ghirapur means that Chandra would have flown on a suicide mission. Without Gideon and his protective magic, Chandra dies.
You also forget or forgot to mention, again, how its Ajani who saved Chandra, Nissa and Oyvia.
Canon and fanon are equal? Really? So some random, poorly written fanfic with Frodo f***ing Sam or worse is the equivalent of LotR? Are you kidding me? I'm not saying that all fanfiction is bad, but it is secondary to the canon. The fanon only exists because of canon. Many people read canon and not fanon, but not vice versa.
Mind if I borrow your words from later on for a second?
Woah, triggered much
As you misunderstand me. I stated how its not wise to hold fan-creations over the source material and the vice-versa of that. As its fairly petulant and petty to do so.
Woah, triggered much? I take it you either write fanfiction or read a lot of it? I think I hit a nerve there. Sorry.
Your thoughts regarding fanfiction appeared extremely low. You went for something easy like:
So some random, poorly written fanfic with Frodo f***ing Sam or worse is the equivalent of LotR
I seen and read fanfiction actually incorporate mythology, languages, cultural differences, racism, enslavement, etc. That were all handled maturely.
Note that I said bad fanfiction, implying that a good variety also exists. There is a spectrum, as with all things. I also said it about some stories, not all. Obviously I'm not talking about L'Etoile's work, which is some of the best. But come on. You were reading those BFZ stories. You can't honestly tell me that's quality writing, can you?
I like the epic cheesyness. So when Gideon Jura did that punch, I cheered. Before you say that ruins Eldrazi, that didn't. They are based on Cthulhu mythos, which is all about inevitability. Also little interesting fact I learned. You know Chandra? Without her, Zendikar would have either been
A) Doomed.
B) Saved but the threat of the titans heads off to some other plane.
Oh and even more interesting. Ugin knew how to kill the Eldrazi but he was acting cautiously and didn't want some ripple effect for killing them. So he, Nahiri and Sorin decided to lock them away on Zendikar. It wasn't some feat that old walkers were incapable of doing. That is why he currently studies the corpses of the Eldrazi Titans in order to better understand the possible repercussions for doing so.
No clue what you're talking about with Kataangers vs Zutarians, sorry. I never said that canon opposes fanon. All I said was that canon comes first. I, and most others, read MtG canon but not fanon. That is all. Ok?
Please don't speak for the group, speak for yourself.
I did know that, actually. That's why I used him as an example. He has a surprisingly high reputation among fans for having so much less story appearences (and card power) than the Gatewatch. The point is, maybe they Gatewatch members are only so "beloved" because they are so overused. If Chandra and Tibalt got equal time in the story, I bet that Tibalt would get more attention from fans.
Then you understand that Arlinn Kord and Saheeli Rai are not nearly as neglected as they could be. It would be nice if Tibalt joined in the Gatewatch same with Koth and Elspeth.
I never said to kill them. I actually gave constructive criticism for how the Gatewatch could be implemented better. I also explained my motivation for posting this. It's pretty clearly not bashing for the sake of bashing.
I know you didn't say "kill them", I remarked how yours lacked it.
Unlike Eldrazi titans, Tezzeret was not a huge threat that needed everyone there to fight him. In fact, Liliana almost did defeated him alone. Her, Chandra, Nissa, Ajani, and all their allies could have done it without Jace and Gidein easily. Jace and Gideon were supposed to busy on Ravnica with Guildpact work and fighting Vraska and it should have stayed that way.
Notice how not every MCU movie (which WotC is not-so-subtly trying to imitate) has every Avenger in it, even if backup would be helpful, because they are doing other things at that time. Magic can and should imitate this with ease.
You forget about Dovan Baan or just didn't simply mention him. His actions for dismantling the Hope of Ghirapur means that Chandra would have flown on a suicide mission. Without Gideon and his protective magic, Chandra dies.
You also forget or forgot to mention, again, how its Ajani who saved Chandra, Nissa and Oyvia.
Canon and fanon are equal? Really? So some random, poorly written fanfic with Frodo f***ing Sam or worse is the equivalent of LotR? Are you kidding me? I'm not saying that all fanfiction is bad, but it is secondary to the canon. The fanon only exists because of canon. Many people read canon and not fanon, but not vice versa.
Mind if I borrow your words from later on for a second?
Woah, triggered much
As you misunderstand me. I stated how its not wise to hold fan-creations over the source material and the vice-versa of that. As its fairly petulant and petty to do so.
Woah, triggered much? I take it you either write fanfiction or read a lot of it? I think I hit a nerve there. Sorry.
Your thoughts regarding fanfiction appeared extremely low. You went for something easy like:
So some random, poorly written fanfic with Frodo f***ing Sam or worse is the equivalent of LotR
I seen and read fanfiction actually incorporate mythology, languages, cultural differences, racism, enslavement, etc. That were all handled maturely.
Note that I said bad fanfiction, implying that a good variety also exists. There is a spectrum, as with all things. I also said it about some stories, not all. Obviously I'm not talking about L'Etoile's work, which is some of the best. But come on. You were reading those BFZ stories. You can't honestly tell me that's quality writing, can you?
I like the epic cheesyness. So when Gideon Jura did that punch, I cheered. Before you say that ruins Eldrazi, that didn't. They are based on Cthulhu mythos, which is all about inevitability. Also little interesting fact I learned. You know Chandra? Without her, Zendikar would have either been
A) Doomed.
B) Saved but the threat of the titans heads off to some other plane.
Oh and even more interesting. Ugin knew how to kill the Eldrazi but he was acting cautiously and didn't want some ripple effect for killing them. So he, Nahiri and Sorin decided to lock them away on Zendikar. It wasn't some feat that old walkers were incapable of doing. That is why he currently studies the corpses of the Eldrazi Titans in order to better understand the possible repercussions for doing so.
No clue what you're talking about with Kataangers vs Zutarians, sorry. I never said that canon opposes fanon. All I said was that canon comes first. I, and most others, read MtG canon but not fanon. That is all. Ok?
Please don't speak for the group, speak for yourself.
I did know that, actually. That's why I used him as an example. He has a surprisingly high reputation among fans for having so much less story appearences (and card power) than the Gatewatch. The point is, maybe they Gatewatch members are only so "beloved" because they are so overused. If Chandra and Tibalt got equal time in the story, I bet that Tibalt would get more attention from fans.
Then you understand that Arlinn Kord and Saheeli Rai are not nearly as neglected as they could be. It would be nice if Tibalt joined in the Gatewatch same with Koth and Elspeth.
I never said to kill them. I actually gave constructive criticism for how the Gatewatch could be implemented better. I also explained my motivation for posting this. It's pretty clearly not bashing for the sake of bashing.
I know you didn't say "kill them", I remarked how yours lacked it.
Pretty much by definition, more people read canon than fanon, since almost everyone who reads fan fiction also has read the source material, while many who have read the source material haven't read fan fiction. I doubt that the majority of my story fans have read mtg fan fiction, but if course I can't know that for certain so I won't state it as a fact, just like you can't know for certain that even say half do. And even among those who do read fan fiction don't read the same fan fiction, while they do read the same canon. With VERY rare exception, fan fiction matters more in terms of the fact that people care enough to write it, and very little in terms of what happens in each individual piece or how good it is. And when the canon stories are easily comparable to bad fan fiction, which was a common refrain around BFZ, and when the main characters are easily compared to poorly written fan creations (as the Gatewatch members have often been) that's a problem. That said, I feel that it's getting better, both the writing and the plotting, but it's just at the level of good, not great, fan fiction, the sort of thing that is impressive when put out by a fan for free but less so when put out as an official product by a company who paid people to write it.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Unlike Eldrazi titans, Tezzeret was not a huge threat that needed everyone there to fight him. In fact, Liliana almost did defeated him alone. Her, Chandra, Nissa, Ajani, and all their allies could have done it without Jace and Gidein easily. Jace and Gideon were supposed to busy on Ravnica with Guildpact work and fighting Vraska and it should have stayed that way.
Notice how not every MCU movie (which WotC is not-so-subtly trying to imitate) has every Avenger in it, even if backup would be helpful, because they are doing other things at that time. Magic can and should imitate this with ease.
You forget about Dovan Baan or just didn't simply mention him. His actions for dismantling the Hope of Ghirapur means that Chandra would have flown on a suicide mission. Without Gideon and his protective magic, Chandra dies.
You also forget or forgot to mention, again, how its Ajani who saved Chandra, Nissa and Oyvia.
I’m talking about a complete reimagining of Kaladesh’s story. There was no reason that Dovin HAD to sabotage Hope of Ghirapur, and, if Jace and Gideon were excluded from the story, he might not have. In fact, there are many places in which the story could have been modified to accommodate a story without Jace and Gideon. It wouldn’t require any drastic changes, but it would make the story a little less repetitive and make the characters a little less stale.
Canon and fanon are equal? Really? So some random, poorly written fanfic with Frodo f***ing Sam or worse is the equivalent of LotR? Are you kidding me? I'm not saying that all fanfiction is bad, but it is secondary to the canon. The fanon only exists because of canon. Many people read canon and not fanon, but not vice versa.
Mind if I borrow your words from later on for a second?
Woah, triggered much
Meh, not really. I used some sarcasm, sure. The swearing was for the effect of giving a very extreme example, not to express emotion. The point is, canon has (or at least, is supposed to have) consistent quality in its content, but that standard is not always applied to fanfiction, allowing for some disgusting results.
As you misunderstand me. I stated how its not wise to hold fan-creations over the source material and the vice-versa of that. As its fairly petulant and petty to do so.
I know that’s what you said, but what I want to know is why exactly I shouldn’t hold canon over fanon. All that you’ve really said is that they are equal and insulted people who believe otherwise, but you are yet to really explain why exactly they would be considered equal. Frankly, I don’t find them to be very equal at all. Fanon relies on canon to exist, not vice versa. Everyone who reads fanon also reads fanon but not vice versa. Fanon could neither exist nor gain any attention without canon first. I’m sorry, I’m just not seeing the equivalence of the two here.
Woah, triggered much? I take it you either write fanfiction or read a lot of it? I think I hit a nerve there. Sorry.
Your thoughts regarding fanfiction appeared extremely low. You went for something easy like:
So some random, poorly written fanfic with Frodo f***ing Sam or worse is the equivalent of LotR
I seen and read fanfiction actually incorporate mythology, languages, cultural differences, racism, enslavement, etc. That were all handled maturely.
I’m sure you have. I’ve read a fair amount of material by non-professional authors, and I think that we can both agree that it varies wildly in terms of quality. I’ve seen some with perfect syntax but much more than that with at least a few errors, and some that are close to unreadable thanks to horrid spelling and grammar. There’s also the issue of content: sometimes it’s good, sure, but other times it can be disgusting, disturbing, or even pornographic material that the original creators clearly never intended or wanted to exist. That’s my point.
Note that I said bad fanfiction, implying that a good variety also exists. There is a spectrum, as with all things. I also said it about some stories, not all. Obviously I'm not talking about L'Etoile's work, which is some of the best. But come on. You were reading those BFZ stories. You can't honestly tell me that's quality writing, can you?
I like the epic cheesyness. So when Gideon Jura did that punch, I cheered.
Congrats, because you are one of the select few that actually benefit from and enjoy our current, epicly cheesy story. But the rest of us aren’t so happy about it. “Cheesyness” is generally considered a negative quality in stories. Sure, some people, such as yourself, enjoy it, but most don’t. There is a time and a place for it, but Magic, which is historically supposed a fantasy storyline that takes itself pretty seriously, is not that place.
Before you say that ruins Eldrazi, that didn't. They are based on Cthulhu mythos, which is all about inevitability. Also little interesting fact I learned. You know Chandra? Without her, Zendikar would have either been
A) Doomed.
B) Saved but the threat of the titans heads off to some other plane.
What exactly is the issue here? For A), sacrificing a plane to show the huge threat of the Eldrazi is not necessarily bad storytelling. Refusing to even sacrifice a couple of contents to the Eldrazi permanently is not good storytelling. B) would have been a good way to set up future stories while actually being pretty realistic. Being able to draw titans to or from planes with proper preparation is something that was established to be possible. Killing them with fire alone was not.
And let’s not forget option C), which was just locking them back up again, which also uses something that actually makes sense and is known to be possible to solve the problem in a reasonable way.
Oh and even more interesting. Ugin knew how to kill the Eldrazi but he was acting cautiously and didn't want some ripple effect for killing them. So he, Nahiri and Sorin decided to lock them away on Zendikar. It wasn't some feat that old walkers were incapable of doing. That is why he currently studies the corpses of the Eldrazi Titans in order to better understand the possible repercussions for doing so.
But Ugin said that he wasn’t sure if they could kill the titans even if they wanted to. And those were oldwalkers. Neowalkers are infinitely less powerful than these godlike beings that maybe, just maybe, could have killed Eldrazi. And they actually expected us, the fans, to believe that a few neowalkers could do it, and be ok with that. Clearly, we were not. So yes, it was still ridiculous.
If you want to defend the Gatewatch and Magic’s story, fine. But BFZ block is not the best place to do that. It’s pretty much impossible to defend. Even the Gatewatch’s staunchest defenders tend to concede that BFZ block was horrible.
No clue what you're talking about with Kataangers vs Zutarians, sorry. I never said that canon opposes fanon. All I said was that canon comes first. I, and most others, read MtG canon but not fanon. That is all. Ok?
Please don't speak for the group, speak for yourself.
Omg. You really think that more than half of all Magic story readers read fanfiction? That’s cute.
I did know that, actually. That's why I used him as an example. He has a surprisingly high reputation among fans for having so much less story appearences (and card power) than the Gatewatch. The point is, maybe they Gatewatch members are only so "beloved" because they are so overused. If Chandra and Tibalt got equal time in the story, I bet that Tibalt would get more attention from fans.
Then you understand that Arlinn Kord and Saheeli Rai are not nearly as neglected as they could be.[/quote]
That’s not really a fair comparison, as Innistrad block was almost completely lacking a storyline. SOI and KLD had tons of story and Arlinn and Saheeli hardly showed up in any of it. Could you even tell me any of Saheeli’s character traits from just her story appearances (not character bios), besides “she’s smart” and “she’s an inventor”? Nope, because she was just an accessory to the Gatewatch and basically nothing else. That kind of treatment for the face of the block? Seriously, it’s pretty sad.
It would be nice if Tibalt joined in the Gatewatch same with Koth and Elspeth.
If you think that Tibalt would even consider joining the Gatewatch then I’m sorry but you are clearly confused about his established character. Almost as if reading fanfiction is altering your perspective on the canon… but no, that couldn’t be true.
I never said to kill them. I actually gave constructive criticism for how the Gatewatch could be implemented better. I also explained my motivation for posting this. It's pretty clearly not bashing for the sake of bashing.
I know you didn't say "kill them", I remarked how yours lacked it.
A large statue of Offler...umm, sorry, a crocodile-headed god(dess?) EDIT: You are right, it is not a statue, it is descending the stairs
Two (or three) animal-like humanoids on the bottom left terrace. The one facing us seem to be modeled after a ram, another one of this sort is bottom right.
Of course, these might be Stargate Jaffa-like headdresses, but the one bottom left seem quite bulky for a human.
The another one seem to be jackal-headed "Anubis", with its back to the observer. To its left, I assume it won't be an angel, but I am willing to guess it is an ibis-headed aven (note the thing between the wings)
In regards to the treatment of characters like Arlin, Dovin, Saheeli, etc...it's really no different than the norm.
None of the original Planeswalkers had anything to do with the Lorwyn story.
Tezz and Elspeth had little to no impact on the Alara story.
Gideon's involvement in original Zendikar was minimal. (And if we're being blunt, most people didn't/don't get what happened with Sorin and Nissa, but they definitely did have an impact on the story.)
If we aren't counting repeats, Karn was basically just a McGuffin, and not much of a character, even after getting their spark back. (If we are, Tezz again did nothing.)
Tibalt and Tamiyo did jack and squat in original Innistrad storyline. (And again, if counting repeats, neither did Sorin.) Innistrad's storyline is admittedly, the most minimal we've had though.
Vraska, and Domri got little to no story relevance, Ral's wasn't obvious to those who skipped the novel (and even then, still minimal.)
Ashiok didn't do anything in the block proper, their story relevant actions all came later, via supplemental material. And Kiora's involvement was not apparent to those that skipped the novel.
Tarkir is probably the first with all Planeswalkers being somewhat involved, but again, Sorin didn't do much, Ugin was sleeping, and Narset wasn't technically a Planeswalker when she did relevant things.
BFZ had everyone involved, but there was only the "newbie" of Ob Nixilis.
SOI had Arlinn as a non-relevant Planeswalker.
And Kaladesh had Saheeli as a background set-piece. Dovin was less-involved, but still played a vital role in the plot.
As for the packaging: The trend of showing off most of the Planeswalkers on Booster Pack art is pretty varied.
Alara block only had Nicol Bolas Planeswalker art on Conflux packs.
Zendikar had everyone at one point or another.
SoM block had everyone but Karn.
Innistrad skipped Tamiyo.
Ravnica had none of them on the big packs, but Vraska, Domri, and Ral on the 6-card boosters.
Theros block had Elspeth and Ajani.
Khans had Ugin, Sarkhan Unbroken, and Narset.
BFZ had all of them (in spirit, if not all in actual card art)
SoI had all but Nahiri (again, in spirit, if not all in actual card art)
And Kaladesh had everyone but Nissa.
So it could very easily be that the three packages we've seen are not Planeswalkers at all. It seems a little cyclical to me, with what little data we have, and if that is the case we should start seeing a decline.
EDIT: Of course I finish posting this as soon as the booster pack art gets revealed! Well, nothing's changed.
I think they revealed the art in roughly color order. Main white, blue, black, red, green.
They do seem totally monocolored but... couldn't they be actually shard colored? I find really akward the crocodile-like one being red, when crocodiles have always been BUG. Maybe the cat one is Bant colors, the ibis one is Esper, the crocodrile is Jund (wich would make a lot of sense, in my opinion, they could even bring back devour, since some of the ancient egyptians fed their sacred crocodiles as a ritual), the jackal one is Grixis (graveyard matters theme) and the snake one is Naya.
Would make sense.
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Funny how the gods here are human/more humanoid than the Theros gods. Which should have been the opposite IMO when being closer to the source material. Creative license, based on Theros races, shaped by devotion etc. - yeah yeah yeah. Not the point.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
For color pie balancing we need a walkers who's G(/X) and a Walkers who is U(/X) or R(/X) since Gideon and Liliana take the W and B spots and Bolas can take the U or R spot depending on the the other walk.
Chill a bit dude we don't know if the any of the art is for the gods, planeswalkers or random card with good art.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
is definitely party of the middle gir's color identity. Maybe or or neither.
vibe from the girl on the right.
I am hinging on left and right for possible planeswalkers as both, at the moment, seem right in my head.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
What disturbs me is that that Gideon and Liliana received planeswalker decks over our new planeswalker (whether or not it is the guy on the pack art, I assume that we will get one). That implies that Gideon and Liliana will both be more plot-relevant than our new PW. Because we don't get enough of the Gatewatch already. Why the hell would anyone want to see more of a potentially interesting walker that we only get for one block rather than the same one-dimensional characters we are forced to see every damn block?
Of course, I could be wrong about the lack of plot relevance and I hope I am, but I have a bad feeling that we are going to see another character get the Arlinn/Saheeli treatment.
Yes like how Nissa & Chandra and also with Tezzeret & Ajani were plot-relevant. And how those four got planeswalker decks.
The opposite can be said of not having a constant within the story's focus and we are just left madly hoping from view point to view point. The current group we are following Weatherwatch/Gatelight. Plus, the planeswalkers do get love and attention by the fans whether or not they are within the Gateawtch. As they do get plenty of fan art and fanfiction and cosplays and buttons and keychains and more. All made by the fans. If I were WOTC I would view the Gatewatch more as a success with the returned love that the fans give through their various Vorthos creations.
Right, and our Kaladesh natives, Saheeli and Dovin, didn’t. The former got completely screwed over in terms of time on-screen in the story in favor of the same characters we see every block, and the latter still could would have benefitted from a bigger role in the story.
So many things here.
I’m fine with a recurring cast if it’s implemented well. To me, that would entail:
1. Not seeing the same characters every block. Kaladesh should have been just Chandra, Nissa, and Liliana. But the whole gang had to come along. Hopefully they fix this in the future, but we already know that Amonkhet is not going to the place for that. (I do appreciate how they chose to exclude the one Gatewatch member that we haven’t already had a year and a half to get sick of /sarcasm.)
2. Not letting the Gatewatch steal attention away from the world around them and other, non-Gatewatch characters. This is pretty obviously an issue. Arlinn and Saheeli were robbed. We had a grand total of 2 stories in Kaladesh block without the Gatewatch.
3. Actually writing the characters well on a consistent basis. I cringe every time Chandra opens her mouth. The characters are one-dimensional and cartoonish and it makes me ashamed to read Magic’s story.
4. Giving us breaks from time to time. This should definitely include individual stories. (We got a fair number of non-Gatewatch stories in SOI, but Kaladesh? Not so much.) It would also to get breaks on a larger scale, as in entire blocks or at least the first set of the block. To be completely honest, the Gatewatch could have been excluded from SOI (with Tamiyo or an Innistrad native replacing Jace) and the Gatewatch could come in the second set to save everyone. It would have been a nice breather for everyone. But nope. We need them in every set.
Fan art and fanfiction are not what I’m looking for. The same goes for many others. I really don’t have the time or motivation to look for things that aren’t even canon and thus won’t pay off in future stories. On the other hand, some Magic story articles read like bad fanfiction anyway, so maybe I should reconsider.
The Gatewatch are a success in brand recognition but not in story quality. While there is a fair amount of fan-made content for the Gatewatch it is actually disproportionately low given how much Gatewatch we see. When the Gatewatch get a 100x as much story appearance as Tamiyo or Tibalt but only 5x as much appreciation by the fans, we know we have a problem. Many people actually want to see other characters, and they don’t want to see them shoved to side to make room for even more Gatewatch. I’m one of those people. Sue me.
Right, and our Kaladesh natives, Saheeli and Dovin, didn’t. The former got completely screwed over in terms of time on-screen in the story in favor of the same characters we see every block, and the latter still could would have benefitted from a bigger role in the story.
[quote]
One the one hand I agree with this. I really liked Saheeli and Arlinn and do wish we had more screen time with them. However the screen time they got is a vast improvement to how some of the other walkers in past blocks got exposure.
In Tarkir Narrset got 2 stories from her pov and the rest where tied up in the main plot and Sorin had 2 that where basically the same story (sarin looks for Ugin) and only different from the timeline changes and Ugin while important to the story only really had two stories to show his character.
Theros Ashiok got two stories and played no part in the main storyline.
Vraska, Gideon and Domi each got 2 UR stories and didn't get any mention in the books.
Innistrad gave Tamiyo, Tibalt back round info and Sorin got a summary article and did nothing plot-wise really.
Gideon was there kinda in Zendikar storyline but it boiled down to being set up for the future.
Tezzeret had no impact what-so-ever on Alara.
Honesty only BtZ and SoM seemed liked all the walkers had storylines that you couldn't remove with out changing the story. So this isn't an issue with the gatewatch it is one that has been around awhile and see I listed above it *seems* to be getting better.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
You mean how Zendikar is Nissa Revane's home?
You mean how Innistrad was like Liliana Vess's home?
You mean how Kaladesh is Chandra's home?
This just sounds silly. Why would other Gatewatch members not respond to a distressed Gatewatch member about the lives of two other Gatewatch members whose lives are in danger? As it sounds like to me the vocalization of wanting Jace or Ajani or Gideon being apathetic to those around them.
???
You mean Kaladesh the plane that is Chandra's homeplane? Kaladesh the backstory for Chandra? Kaladesh the resolution to Chandra's troubled childhood with Baral? Kaladesh, where Chandra finally gets reunited with her mother she believed to be dead for twelve years? Kaladesh where Chandra's father was murdered right in front of her? That. All of that was all unreasonable to focus on the person who is a native of that plane? Wow man, just wow. I just don't even.
Because I thought they actually added character growth to Chandra and Nissa. You can't grow characters beyond one-dimensional if we don't focus on them.
Weatherlight, Urza and Yawgmoth. Four years.
Followed up by Odyssey and Onslaught. Two years.
Hmm negatory. What keeps a story alive is people giving fan-creations say fanart of their favorite characters. Without that among a long list of other Vorthosian-activities, the fictional world falls into obscurity to not be spoken of again. The Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, the Twin Towers, Return of the King, The Silmarillion?. Those books would not have survived if people hadn't made songs, art, costumes, movies, etc without the love of the fans. Canon and Fanon really don't matter for personal enjoyment and trying to hold one over the other just is nonsensical as its a symbiotic relationship.
Wow that was a really rude thing to say about the writers. There is plenty of good fanfiction out there and its not the equivalent of Twilight or Fifty Shades (both being publicized fanfiction). Also the writing has improved since BFZ. Also you are aware their are 130,000 length-long novels that are fanfiction, good fanfiction, that are for free and were hand-crafted with love and care right? I mean AER and KLD had for instance Chris L'Etoile writing good pieces. You going to tell me his work is "bad fanfiction"?
As your comment reminds me of how bad it is with the Kataangers Vs Zutarians. They can't just appreciate the work that they and others create, they got to tear down others because of this extremely bad notion of "Canon Vs Fanon".
I mean did you know Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded is actually a highly beloved character and gets a lot of fan-creations centered around him that aren't even romantic or raunchy? Same with Dack Fayden, Ral Zarek, etc.
Also let me just say, its a bit unpleasant to read this as it feels like needless bashing for the sake of bashing that I've seen others make that really adds nothing constructive. At least its not filled with the dribble that is: "Kill the gatewatch members! Kill the gatewatch members! We want new characters!"
Crocodile dragon.
With a divine circlet around his neck.
That's badass.
P.S.: Growing tired of Gatewatch PWs showing up so much.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Very. Could be a reference to Ammut while doing the Theros thing and not making it a legendary. Or it could just be how the dragons on Amonkhet are like. Either works for me.
Exactly zero people are complaining that Nissa, Liliana, and Chandra need more attention in the story. The same can't be said for most non-Gatewatch walkers even on their own planes for their own introductions. There's a problem here.
Unlike Eldrazi titans, Tezzeret was not a huge threat that needed everyone there to fight him. In fact, Liliana almost did defeated him alone. Her, Chandra, Nissa, Ajani, and all their allies could have done it without Jace and Gidein easily. Jace and Gideon were supposed to busy on Ravnica with Guildpact work and fighting Vraska and it should have stayed that way.
Notice how not every MCU movie (which WotC is not-so-subtly trying to imitate) has every Avenger in it, even if backup would be helpful, because they are doing other things at that time. Magic can and should imitate this with ease.
Chandra could have had her story arc without draining focus away from the surrounding world and characters. That's what Sarkhan did in KTK. It was his homeplane where he had lots of history. He got to go through the block's main plot tying up loose ends and growing as a character along the way. Yet we still saw plenty of clans, khans, and dragons.
The Gatewatch seems to be one-dimensional by design. They have one primary, color-based trait that shapes everything they say and do. Jace is smart, Chandra is emotional, etc. They are making small developments but not any real changes because they want a bunch of easily-identifiable color mascots.
Not comparable at all for a number of reasons. This is a different time. Gameplay-story integration is at an all time high. Back then, your average non-Vorthos could hardly tell you who Urza or Yawgmoth was. Now, those same people are very much aware of the Gatewatch and many our sick of it.
Canon and fanon are equal? Really? So some random, poorly written fanfic with Frodo f***ing Sam or worse is the equivalent of LotR? Are you kidding me?
I'm not saying that all fanfiction is bad, but it is secondary to the canon. The fanon only exists because of canon. Many people read canon and not fanon, but not vice versa.
Woah, triggered much? I take it you either write fanfiction or read a lot of it? I think I hit a nerve there. Sorry.
Note that I said bad fanfiction, implying that a good variety also exists. There is a spectrum, as with all things. I also said it about some stories, not all. Obviously I'm not talking about L'Etoile's work, which is some of the best.
But come on. You were reading those BFZ stories. You can't honestly tell me that's quality writing, can you?
No clue what you're talking about with Kataangers vs Zutarians, sorry. I never said that canon opposes fanon. All I said was that canon comes first. I, and most others, read MtG canon but not fanon. That is all. Ok?
I did know that, actually. That's why I used him as an example. He has a surprisingly high reputation among fans for having so much less story appearences (and card power) than the Gatewatch. The point is, maybe they Gatewatch members are only so "beloved" because they are so overused. If Chandra and Tibalt got equal time in the story, I bet that Tibalt would get more attention from fans.
I never said to kill them. I actually gave constructive criticism for how the Gatewatch could be implemented better. I also explained my motivation for posting this. It's pretty clearly not bashing for the sake of bashing.
You forget about Dovan Baan or just didn't simply mention him. His actions for dismantling the Hope of Ghirapur means that Chandra would have flown on a suicide mission. Without Gideon and his protective magic, Chandra dies.
You also forget or forgot to mention, again, how its Ajani who saved Chandra, Nissa and Oyvia.
Mind if I borrow your words from later on for a second?
As you misunderstand me. I stated how its not wise to hold fan-creations over the source material and the vice-versa of that. As its fairly petulant and petty to do so.
Your thoughts regarding fanfiction appeared extremely low. You went for something easy like:
I seen and read fanfiction actually incorporate mythology, languages, cultural differences, racism, enslavement, etc. That were all handled maturely.
I like the epic cheesyness. So when Gideon Jura did that punch, I cheered. Before you say that ruins Eldrazi, that didn't. They are based on Cthulhu mythos, which is all about inevitability. Also little interesting fact I learned. You know Chandra? Without her, Zendikar would have either been
A) Doomed.
B) Saved but the threat of the titans heads off to some other plane.
Oh and even more interesting. Ugin knew how to kill the Eldrazi but he was acting cautiously and didn't want some ripple effect for killing them. So he, Nahiri and Sorin decided to lock them away on Zendikar. It wasn't some feat that old walkers were incapable of doing. That is why he currently studies the corpses of the Eldrazi Titans in order to better understand the possible repercussions for doing so.
Please don't speak for the group, speak for yourself.
Then you understand that Arlinn Kord and Saheeli Rai are not nearly as neglected as they could be. It would be nice if Tibalt joined in the Gatewatch same with Koth and Elspeth.
I know you didn't say "kill them", I remarked how yours lacked it.
Pretty much by definition, more people read canon than fanon, since almost everyone who reads fan fiction also has read the source material, while many who have read the source material haven't read fan fiction. I doubt that the majority of my story fans have read mtg fan fiction, but if course I can't know that for certain so I won't state it as a fact, just like you can't know for certain that even say half do. And even among those who do read fan fiction don't read the same fan fiction, while they do read the same canon. With VERY rare exception, fan fiction matters more in terms of the fact that people care enough to write it, and very little in terms of what happens in each individual piece or how good it is. And when the canon stories are easily comparable to bad fan fiction, which was a common refrain around BFZ, and when the main characters are easily compared to poorly written fan creations (as the Gatewatch members have often been) that's a problem. That said, I feel that it's getting better, both the writing and the plotting, but it's just at the level of good, not great, fan fiction, the sort of thing that is impressive when put out by a fan for free but less so when put out as an official product by a company who paid people to write it.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I’m talking about a complete reimagining of Kaladesh’s story. There was no reason that Dovin HAD to sabotage Hope of Ghirapur, and, if Jace and Gideon were excluded from the story, he might not have. In fact, there are many places in which the story could have been modified to accommodate a story without Jace and Gideon. It wouldn’t require any drastic changes, but it would make the story a little less repetitive and make the characters a little less stale.
Meh, not really. I used some sarcasm, sure. The swearing was for the effect of giving a very extreme example, not to express emotion. The point is, canon has (or at least, is supposed to have) consistent quality in its content, but that standard is not always applied to fanfiction, allowing for some disgusting results.
I know that’s what you said, but what I want to know is why exactly I shouldn’t hold canon over fanon. All that you’ve really said is that they are equal and insulted people who believe otherwise, but you are yet to really explain why exactly they would be considered equal. Frankly, I don’t find them to be very equal at all. Fanon relies on canon to exist, not vice versa. Everyone who reads fanon also reads fanon but not vice versa. Fanon could neither exist nor gain any attention without canon first. I’m sorry, I’m just not seeing the equivalence of the two here.
I’m sure you have. I’ve read a fair amount of material by non-professional authors, and I think that we can both agree that it varies wildly in terms of quality. I’ve seen some with perfect syntax but much more than that with at least a few errors, and some that are close to unreadable thanks to horrid spelling and grammar. There’s also the issue of content: sometimes it’s good, sure, but other times it can be disgusting, disturbing, or even pornographic material that the original creators clearly never intended or wanted to exist. That’s my point.
Congrats, because you are one of the select few that actually benefit from and enjoy our current, epicly cheesy story. But the rest of us aren’t so happy about it. “Cheesyness” is generally considered a negative quality in stories. Sure, some people, such as yourself, enjoy it, but most don’t. There is a time and a place for it, but Magic, which is historically supposed a fantasy storyline that takes itself pretty seriously, is not that place.
What exactly is the issue here? For A), sacrificing a plane to show the huge threat of the Eldrazi is not necessarily bad storytelling. Refusing to even sacrifice a couple of contents to the Eldrazi permanently is not good storytelling. B) would have been a good way to set up future stories while actually being pretty realistic. Being able to draw titans to or from planes with proper preparation is something that was established to be possible. Killing them with fire alone was not.
And let’s not forget option C), which was just locking them back up again, which also uses something that actually makes sense and is known to be possible to solve the problem in a reasonable way.
But Ugin said that he wasn’t sure if they could kill the titans even if they wanted to. And those were oldwalkers. Neowalkers are infinitely less powerful than these godlike beings that maybe, just maybe, could have killed Eldrazi. And they actually expected us, the fans, to believe that a few neowalkers could do it, and be ok with that. Clearly, we were not. So yes, it was still ridiculous.
If you want to defend the Gatewatch and Magic’s story, fine. But BFZ block is not the best place to do that. It’s pretty much impossible to defend. Even the Gatewatch’s staunchest defenders tend to concede that BFZ block was horrible.
Omg. You really think that more than half of all Magic story readers read fanfiction? That’s cute.
Then you understand that Arlinn Kord and Saheeli Rai are not nearly as neglected as they could be.[/quote]
That’s not really a fair comparison, as Innistrad block was almost completely lacking a storyline. SOI and KLD had tons of story and Arlinn and Saheeli hardly showed up in any of it. Could you even tell me any of Saheeli’s character traits from just her story appearances (not character bios), besides “she’s smart” and “she’s an inventor”? Nope, because she was just an accessory to the Gatewatch and basically nothing else. That kind of treatment for the face of the block? Seriously, it’s pretty sad.
If you think that Tibalt would even consider joining the Gatewatch then I’m sorry but you are clearly confused about his established character. Almost as if reading fanfiction is altering your perspective on the canon… but no, that couldn’t be true.
Yeah, I totally misread that. My bad.
It is an extended version of the artbook cover.
What is seen here:
A large
statue ofOffler...umm, sorry, a crocodile-headed god(dess?) EDIT: You are right, it is not a statue, it is descending the stairsTwo (or three) animal-like humanoids on the bottom left terrace. The one facing us seem to be modeled after a ram, another one of this sort is bottom right.
Of course, these might be Stargate Jaffa-like headdresses, but the one bottom left seem quite bulky for a human.
The another one seem to be jackal-headed "Anubis", with its back to the observer. To its left, I assume it won't be an angel, but I am willing to guess it is an ibis-headed aven (note the thing between the wings)
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
I hope so. Melesse Spirit was also male, so apparently all male angels are black.
I'd love to see more spirits too, since Egyptian is well versed in such lore. I wouldn't mind seeing Bestow either, consider gods are involved.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
I think Wolf is red and Croc black
None of the original Planeswalkers had anything to do with the Lorwyn story.
Tezz and Elspeth had little to no impact on the Alara story.
Gideon's involvement in original Zendikar was minimal. (And if we're being blunt, most people didn't/don't get what happened with Sorin and Nissa, but they definitely did have an impact on the story.)
If we aren't counting repeats, Karn was basically just a McGuffin, and not much of a character, even after getting their spark back. (If we are, Tezz again did nothing.)
Tibalt and Tamiyo did jack and squat in original Innistrad storyline. (And again, if counting repeats, neither did Sorin.) Innistrad's storyline is admittedly, the most minimal we've had though.
Vraska, and Domri got little to no story relevance, Ral's wasn't obvious to those who skipped the novel (and even then, still minimal.)
Ashiok didn't do anything in the block proper, their story relevant actions all came later, via supplemental material. And Kiora's involvement was not apparent to those that skipped the novel.
Tarkir is probably the first with all Planeswalkers being somewhat involved, but again, Sorin didn't do much, Ugin was sleeping, and Narset wasn't technically a Planeswalker when she did relevant things.
BFZ had everyone involved, but there was only the "newbie" of Ob Nixilis.
SOI had Arlinn as a non-relevant Planeswalker.
And Kaladesh had Saheeli as a background set-piece. Dovin was less-involved, but still played a vital role in the plot.
As for the packaging: The trend of showing off most of the Planeswalkers on Booster Pack art is pretty varied.
Alara block only had Nicol Bolas Planeswalker art on Conflux packs.
Zendikar had everyone at one point or another.
SoM block had everyone but Karn.
Innistrad skipped Tamiyo.
Ravnica had none of them on the big packs, but Vraska, Domri, and Ral on the 6-card boosters.
Theros block had Elspeth and Ajani.
Khans had Ugin, Sarkhan Unbroken, and Narset.
BFZ had all of them (in spirit, if not all in actual card art)
SoI had all but Nahiri (again, in spirit, if not all in actual card art)
And Kaladesh had everyone but Nissa.
So it could very easily be that the three packages we've seen are not Planeswalkers at all. It seems a little cyclical to me, with what little data we have, and if that is the case we should start seeing a decline.
EDIT: Of course I finish posting this as soon as the booster pack art gets revealed! Well, nothing's changed.
I think they revealed the art in roughly color order. Main white, blue, black, red, green.
The spoiled crocodile dragon implies that "Sobek" is indeed the Red god. I guess they flipped to mess with us
I wonder if Bolas is their "Ra."
More like Sekhmet* (more leonine apparence, bow and arrows) and Wadjet (which is very cheeky, as "Wadjet" = "green one")
+Though Bast started off as pretty much a cloe of Sekhmet, so...
Would make sense.