I'd argue Avacyn counts as a significant death. She was a villain during SoI but she was unwilling, driven mad by Nahiri, which feels less like a villain being defeated. As PapaThor and many other expressed it was quite emotional to read her death and it will continue to have an impact on Innistrad.
Plus Avacyn was a huge character, first legendary creature in a long time to be the key character of a set instead of a planeswalker.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
And the funny part is, Avacyn only died because of a Planeswalker. Which would be fine, if the story wasn't always about Planeswalkers. It's annoying to me when planes are mere backdrops or playgrounds for these "no longer godlike" characters who are godlike anyway, because yay, inconsistency. But why should Thassa, Avacyn, Progenitus, or any of these entities matter if even Eldrazi titanis didn't? Frankly, the killing of Ulamog and Kozilek truly set a precedent that these Neo-Walkers can truly accomplish anything Creative wants, even with minimal effort and preparation time and with no consequences. Only Emrakul's defeat was done in such a way that is respectable and alluring. But Ulamog and Kozilek's deaths, like everything about BFZ, compromises a lot of faith I have in Creative. Literally nothing is a threat. Planes and their overlords mean nothing to characters that should only be mages that can traverse worlds, but are instead taking out some very serious villains with ease from the get-go.
There's nothing for these characters to fear, frankly. Or work towards or desire, or anything. They evidently can just show up on worlds, best its overlord legends and leave victorious. Okay. I miss the days when Beatrice or whatever her name was warned Jace not to tap into too much of Kamigawa's mana lest he provoke a Kami manifestation as Kamigawa's gods are hostile to foreign mages, and their wrath could spell the end of him. Or Bolas claiming that taking on 4 powerful Demons on Lilliana's behalf was a feat even for him. You know, actual reasons to fear and respect a plane's metaphysics. Not charging headstrong into challenging Avacyn or spitting jokes during a fight with a major deity ruling one of the vastest domains on an entire plane.
The Blight We Were Born For truly made BFZ and the titans admirably mysterious, and this was ruined. You mean to tell me Baral is a greater threat than Kozilek, Butcher of Truth? If these Planeswalkers aren't going to have anything to look upon with awe, respect and even fear when entering worlds, then really this entire concept of a Multiverse is pointless.
I am predicting the Amonkhet story might be starting earlier than we think, so that we do get some Magic story fix between now and the next block. Perhaps after Battle and Dark Intimations, maybe we will get a Dovin Baan, Tezzerret or Nicol Bolas background story (A Nicol Bolas story of what he has been up to on Amonkhet would get me quite excited).
This is my thinking. We got re-introduced to Tezzeret with very little background, and Bolas requires more explanation, as does Amonkhet as a whole.
Ideally they'll develop the Gatewatch during that time. We'll see them regroup on Ravnica, and see a few stories of them on Amonkhet scoping the situation out and planning.
Hopefully? The characters definitely need time to breath and develop a bit more naturally.
Did anyone ever think Jack and Annie were going to die in speed, despite the train barrelling towards the end of the track?
Did anyone ever think Hiller and Levinson were going to die in Independence Day, despite being trapped in the mothership with a nuke about to go off?
Did anyone think John McClane was ever going to die... ever?
And all those scenes were intense and awesome, because the human psyche is willing to suspend disbelief,and enjoy the thrills of a rollercoaster ride, despite the knowledge deep down that at the end of the day, you're still pulling into the station safely.
And the funny part is, Avacyn only died because of a Planeswalker. Which would be fine, if the story wasn't always about Planeswalkers. It's annoying to me when planes are mere backdrops or playgrounds for these "no longer godlike" characters who are godlike anyway, because yay, inconsistency. But why should Thassa, Avacyn, Progenitus, or any of these entities matter if even Eldrazi titanis didn't? Frankly, the killing of Ulamog and Kozilek truly set a precedent that these Neo-Walkers can truly accomplish anything Creative wants, even with minimal effort and preparation time and with no consequences. Only Emrakul's defeat was done in such a way that is respectable and alluring. But Ulamog and Kozilek's deaths, like everything about BFZ, compromises a lot of faith I have in Creative. Literally nothing is a threat. Planes and their overlords mean nothing to characters that should only be mages that can traverse worlds, but are instead taking out some very serious villains with ease from the get-go.
There's nothing for these characters to fear, frankly. Or work towards or desire, or anything. They evidently can just show up on worlds, best its overlord legends and leave victorious. Okay. I miss the days when Beatrice or whatever her name was warned Jace not to tap into too much of Kamigawa's mana lest he provoke a Kami manifestation as Kamigawa's gods are hostile to foreign mages, and their wrath could spell the end of him. Or Bolas claiming that taking on 4 powerful Demons on Lilliana's behalf was a feat even for him. You know, actual reasons to fear and respect a plane's metaphysics. Not charging headstrong into challenging Avacyn or spitting jokes during a fight with a major deity ruling one of the vastest domains on an entire plane.
The Blight We Were Born For truly made BFZ and the titans admirably mysterious, and this was ruined. You mean to tell me Baral is a greater threat than Kozilek, Butcher of Truth? If these Planeswalkers aren't going to have anything to look upon with awe, respect and even fear when entering worlds, then really this entire concept of a Multiverse is pointless.
I think you're missing most subtext with all of this.
Avacyn didn't die because of "a Planeswalker"- she died because of Sorin. Her creator. Who felt he had no other option- how come he couldn't fix her, or create another? Maybe because he had severe limitations to do anything but destroy- and thus leave Innistrad completely open?
Killing the Eldrazi Titans was very much a right place, right people, right time scenario, and was made out to be. You needed a mage capable of channelling manalines like Nissa, and a fire mage like Chandra, and a world full of turbulent mana like Zendikar. Even then, it nearly failed, and came so close to destroying Zendikar in the process that Kiora panicked and nearly wrecked everything. And it nearly killed both Chandra and Nissa, and left them weak for several weeks. In short, it was almost as much luck as it was power. You can notice they tried the same thing on Innistrad- against only one Eldrazi titan, on a world not nearly as decimated as Zendikar was, and it failed miserably. As did any attempt to imprison her- they were too weak and Emrakul had to do it for herself.
In addition, the Eldrazi were only conceived as invincible because no-one had ever even thought about drawing their "interplanar bodies" into a plane- mainly because no one had the knowledge that Ugin had until he told Jace- which he never would have done had he known about Chandra and Nissa, because he didn't want the Eldrazi actually killed.
So in the end Jace came up with the plan, and Nissa and Chandra tag teamed to do it, but it was Ugin that did most of the figuring out for Jace, and it was Zendikar that had the mana for Nissa. Without either of those external forces helping, it would have been a disaster. And if it wasn't for Emrakul being all "yeah, okay, I'm done here", Innistrad would have been a disaster too.
Now to Kaladesh- they haven't exactly "just shown up and bested its overlord legends". We're 16 stories into the block, and the Consulate isn't even close to falling. Chandra has spent the entire block getting her butt handed to her, and needing others to save her. They needed a six on one to hold any advantage over Tezzeret in the arena. SEVEN Planeswalkers (even five after Chandra and Nissa ran off) couldn't hold the aether hub. Seven planeswalkers couldn't figure out a way to bring down a 6/5 ship- Jace's illusions failed, and they needed a cunning fifteen year old skypirate to trigger a whale kamikaze attack to do so.
In short, the Gatewatch is getting help and luck far more than they're just doing things on their own.
So are Chandra and Gideon going to survive the Hope of Ghirapur mission? This is a no spoiler thread but... YES. My guess is Gideon, at the last second, embraces Chandra, shielding her with his indestructible body, and this leads to some sort of romance between the two. (Yes, its predictable, no I don't care- it'll still be fun to read if its written well) Are they really going to beat Tezzeret? Are they really going to bring down the Consulate? How much of a "victory" is actually going to happen here, and if there is any, what amount is actually attributed to the Gatewatch's contributions.
I'd argue Avacyn counts as a significant death. She was a villain during SoI but she was unwilling, driven mad by Nahiri, which feels less like a villain being defeated. As PapaThor and many other expressed it was quite emotional to read her death and it will continue to have an impact on Innistrad.
Plus Avacyn was a huge character, first legendary creature in a long time to be the key character of a set instead of a planeswalker.
Fair enough. Avacyn's death had emotional impact. But given that she turned evil first, it still does nothing to contradict the "heroes win with no casualties" pattern of stories we have had recently. The story has a number of predictability issues, and the lack of death among any protagonists (even side characters) is a major one of them. Avacyn, Brisela, Kozilek, and Ulamog were all pretty clearly antagonistic. That means that we haven't had a protagonist (in the loosest definition of the word) die since Origins, a year and a half ago. (Lorthos doesn't really count, as we was just a large animal and really only fighting Kozilek because Kiora basically used mind control on him.)
Did anyone ever think Jack and Annie were going to die in speed, despite the train barrelling towards the end of the track?
Did anyone ever think Hiller and Levinson were going to die in Independence Day, despite being trapped in the mothership with a nuke about to go off?
Did anyone think John McClane was ever going to die... ever?
And all those scenes were intense and awesome, because the human psyche is willing to suspend disbelief,and enjoy the thrills of a rollercoaster ride, despite the knowledge deep down that at the end of the day, you're still pulling into the station safely.
Once again (how many times must I say this?), I'm not asking for main characters to die. As nice of a plot twist as it is when one dies (Venser, Elspeth), it doesn't appear to be something that creative has any interest in any more. They want consistency and brand recognition, and that requires a stable cast of alive characters (the Gatewatch).
Your examples are very different from what I'm talking about in that they only mention one or two main characters per story. I'm not just talking about main characters, and I'm talking about a lot more than two. Even if you exclude the Gatewatch (for reasons stated above), all other planeswalkers (creative seems to not want to kill off any planeswalkers anymore), villains (who tend to lack the emotional weight associated with a hero's death), and characters without cards (extremely minor characters, as these tend to be, are also lacking in emotional weight), that still leaves dozens of characters within the past year and a half. The vast majority have been directly involved in some sort of conflict. Not a single one of them has been killed. Hell, few have even been injured. That extremely, ridiculously unlikely to happen.
So one or two (or even five or six) main characters predictably surviving the conflict is forgivable. Dozens of side characters all coincidentally surviving the same (very lethal) conflict is not. Plot armor for a few (with practical reason) is acceptable, if a little uninteresting. Plot armor for every protagonist removes all sense of risk and unpredictability from the story. And that, in my opinion, is unacceptable.
Once again (how many times must I say this?), I'm not asking for main characters to die. As nice of a plot twist as it is when one dies (Venser, Elspeth), it doesn't appear to be something that creative has any interest in any more. They want consistency and brand recognition, and that requires a stable cast of alive characters (the Gatewatch).
Your examples are very different from what I'm talking about in that they only mention one or two main characters per story. I'm not just talking about main characters, and I'm talking about a lot more than two. Even if you exclude the Gatewatch (for reasons stated above), all other planeswalkers (creative seems to not want to kill off any planeswalkers anymore), villains (who tend to lack the emotional weight associated with a hero's death), and characters without cards (extremely minor characters, as these tend to be, are also lacking in emotional weight), that still leaves dozens of characters within the past year and a half. The vast majority have been directly involved in some sort of conflict. Not a single one of them has been killed. Hell, few have even been injured. That extremely, ridiculously unlikely to happen.
So one or two (or even five or six) main characters predictably surviving the conflict is forgivable. Dozens of side characters all coincidentally surviving the same (very lethal) conflict is not. Plot armor for a few (with practical reason) is acceptable, if a little uninteresting. Plot armor for every protagonist removes all sense of risk and unpredictability from the story. And that, in my opinion, is unacceptable.
Every person on the elevator, and every person on the bus in Speed lived, minus Helen (who was a moron, and only purpose in the plot was to die). Exactly three named characters died in the movie- Helen, Harry (Jack's partner), and Dennis Hopper's villain.
The only named characters to die in Independence Day were David's friend, the FIrst Lady, Professor Okin, and Russell Case. Only Case played any significant role in the plot.
So no, its really not that different. Unless a character is there specifically to die for a poignant storyline moment (Lorthos in BFZ, Okin in ID4), if you've got a name, you tend to live while its the nameless that are killed en masse. Its been a popular fiction trope since the dawn of time, using slaughter of faceless people to set the mood and show peril, while keeping major, named characters alive with a few exceptions, both to avoid distracting the viewer from the plot with an emotional loss, and for the sake of using said characters again in sequels.
Also should be pointed out that most of the "dozens" of characters you mention were actually left fairly ambiguous fatewise. Many fates were actually left unclear by nonmention, because once they served their purpose in the plot, they were removed from focus.
Also should be pointed out that Kaladesh is actually quite different as well, in that neither side in the conflict is specifically out to kill the other side. There's been plenty of violence on both sides, but its also been clear that when the opportunity to subdue someone non-lethally has arisen, both sides, with a few exceptions (coughlilianacough) have shown more than happy to do that.
So one or two (or even five or six) main characters predictably surviving the conflict is forgivable. Dozens of side characters all coincidentally surviving the same (very lethal) conflict is not. Plot armor for a few (with practical reason) is acceptable, if a little uninteresting. Plot armor for every protagonist removes all sense of risk and unpredictability from the story. And that, in my opinion, is unacceptable.
I fully agree. I doubt audiences would have believed the risk of the assault on the Death Star if every Rebel pilot survived.
You know what I think this is? Wizards is being so gentle with the characters because they've taken the wrong lessons from the past. They've seen people get upset when fan-favorites like Venser or Elspeth get killed off, so now they just won't.
So one or two (or even five or six) main characters predictably surviving the conflict is forgivable. Dozens of side characters all coincidentally surviving the same (very lethal) conflict is not. Plot armor for a few (with practical reason) is acceptable, if a little uninteresting. Plot armor for every protagonist removes all sense of risk and unpredictability from the story. And that, in my opinion, is unacceptable.
I fully agree. I doubt audiences would have believed the risk of the assault on the Death Star if every Rebel pilot survived.
You know what I think this is? Wizards is being so gentle with the characters because they've taken the wrong lessons from the past. They've seen people get upset when fan-favorites like Venser or Elspeth get killed off, so now they just won't.
So like how every roil shaper died but Dolan? If all you want is countless redshirt dying then BFZ had plenty of that (that's about all it had). I don't remember Thalia's army having named characters to meaningfully die but that one vampire that almost seemed like they mattered died against Nahiri.
So based on what people said almost no running story regularly kills anyone of any significance, but they regularly kill irrelevant redshirts that they occasionally shine a spotlight on just before they die to trick you into thinking they aren't a redshirt.
Once again (how many times must I say this?), I'm not asking for main characters to die. As nice of a plot twist as it is when one dies (Venser, Elspeth), it doesn't appear to be something that creative has any interest in any more. They want consistency and brand recognition, and that requires a stable cast of alive characters (the Gatewatch).
Your examples are very different from what I'm talking about in that they only mention one or two main characters per story. I'm not just talking about main characters, and I'm talking about a lot more than two. Even if you exclude the Gatewatch (for reasons stated above), all other planeswalkers (creative seems to not want to kill off any planeswalkers anymore), villains (who tend to lack the emotional weight associated with a hero's death), and characters without cards (extremely minor characters, as these tend to be, are also lacking in emotional weight), that still leaves dozens of characters within the past year and a half. The vast majority have been directly involved in some sort of conflict. Not a single one of them has been killed. Hell, few have even been injured. That extremely, ridiculously unlikely to happen.
So one or two (or even five or six) main characters predictably surviving the conflict is forgivable. Dozens of side characters all coincidentally surviving the same (very lethal) conflict is not. Plot armor for a few (with practical reason) is acceptable, if a little uninteresting. Plot armor for every protagonist removes all sense of risk and unpredictability from the story. And that, in my opinion, is unacceptable.
Every person on the elevator, and every person on the bus in Speed lived, minus Helen (who was a moron, and only purpose in the plot was to die). Exactly three named characters died in the movie- Helen, Harry (Jack's partner), and Dennis Hopper's villain.
The only named characters to die in Independence Day were David's friend, the FIrst Lady, Professor Okin, and Russell Case. Only Case played any significant role in the plot.
So no, its really not that different. Unless a character is there specifically to die for a poignant storyline moment (Lorthos in BFZ, Okin in ID4), if you've got a name, you tend to live while its the nameless that are killed en masse. Its been a popular fiction trope since the dawn of time, using slaughter of faceless people to set the mood and show peril, while keeping major, named characters alive with a few exceptions, both to avoid distracting the viewer from the plot with an emotional loss, and for the sake of using said characters again in sequels.
Also should be pointed out that most of the "dozens" of characters you mention were actually left fairly ambiguous fatewise. Many fates were actually left unclear by nonmention, because once they served their purpose in the plot, they were removed from focus.
Also should be pointed out that Kaladesh is actually quite different as well, in that neither side in the conflict is specifically out to kill the other side. There's been plenty of violence on both sides, but its also been clear that when the opportunity to subdue someone non-lethally has arisen, both sides, with a few exceptions (coughlilianacough) have shown more than happy to do that.
Still not a good comparison. For one thing, your examples still (I would assume) have far fewer named characters than Magic has had in the past year and a half. And they actually have some deaths. Sure, they may be minor characters, but they actually have names and identities, unlike any protagonist causality in Magic recently. If we got just one death like the ones you described per block, I would be satisfied. But we aren’t. And therein lies the problem.
It is a common fiction trope to kill the faceless people and spare the real characters, but there’s a time and a place for this. A legitimate character death can be used for emotional weight and to actually keep a sense of realism in the material. The more named characters you have, the less believable it is for everyone survive. As I said, it’s fine for the 5-6 members of the Gatewatch to not die. But having the Gatewatch, all the other planeswalkers, and all the other legendary creatures (save a few villains), many dozens of characters in total, all survive considerably lethal conflicts… that’s unacceptable. Statistically, it’s virtually impossible. When you actually stop to think about it for a second, it sounds pretty ridiculous.
While, yes, many characters have ambiguous fates, they should be assumed alive until proven dead. I’m pretty damn sure that they won’t return to Innistrad and tell us “Remember Thalia? She died during the Eldrazi invasion. We didn’t tell you she died, but we didn’t tell you she lived either, so this is ok.” There would be outrage from the fans. If they decide that someone will die, they should (and probably will) show us. So, by default, everyone not proclaimed dead should be presumed alive. Hell, we were even told the Pia died and she turned out to be alive, so even off-screen “deaths” aren’t fully trustworthy.
While Kaladesh isn’t an all-out Eldrazi invasion, Aether Revolt is still a story about a violent revolution and should be treated as such. Unfortunately, we have been given only a few glimpses of the battles but we have still seen both sides resorting to killing. We know Yahenni and presumably Liliana have already killed members of the Consulate. Chandra likely has done so, too. The renegade side is full of black- and red-aligned characters who would probably have little problem killing agents of Consulate oppression. We also know that Dovin Baan, who originally wanted to avoid killing anyone, authorized a plan that would involve death. Plus Baral has probably taken a number of rebel lives, or at least would be willing to. I think we can conclude that, in general, the members of each side are willing to kill members of the other if necessary.
So with a violent and deadly revolution taking place across the city, and all of our characters being right in the middle of it, it’s close to miraculous that not one of them died. Oviya Pashiri, a frail old woman, has twice come close to death at the hands of Baral. How the hell did she survive? Seriously!? If they aren’t going to let anyone die, they could at least spare us from multiple near-death situations like this where it is, frankly, absolutely ridiculous that no one died. And I’m not just talking about Kaladesh. BFZ and SOI featured significantly more lethal circumstances. They were both just as full of near-death experiences, yet just as devoid of actual character deaths. (Once again, excluding villains and faceless, nameless red shirts.)
So one or two (or even five or six) main characters predictably surviving the conflict is forgivable. Dozens of side characters all coincidentally surviving the same (very lethal) conflict is not. Plot armor for a few (with practical reason) is acceptable, if a little uninteresting. Plot armor for every protagonist removes all sense of risk and unpredictability from the story. And that, in my opinion, is unacceptable.
I fully agree. I doubt audiences would have believed the risk of the assault on the Death Star if every Rebel pilot survived.
You know what I think this is? Wizards is being so gentle with the characters because they've taken the wrong lessons from the past. They've seen people get upset when fan-favorites like Venser or Elspeth get killed off, so now they just won't.
True. The red shirt deaths do help add realism. But every named character coincidentally surviving the conflict(s) takes away from it.
Negative reactions to Venser’s and Elspeth’s deaths are probably the reason for what we’ve been getting today. For one thing, deaths like those remind us that anyone can die. This keeps actual suspense and realism in the story. But even if they don’t want to kill major characters like planeswalkers anymore (which I am willing to accept), they can at least let a minor character die every once in a while. And yet they don’t.
So one or two (or even five or six) main characters predictably surviving the conflict is forgivable. Dozens of side characters all coincidentally surviving the same (very lethal) conflict is not. Plot armor for a few (with practical reason) is acceptable, if a little uninteresting. Plot armor for every protagonist removes all sense of risk and unpredictability from the story. And that, in my opinion, is unacceptable.
I fully agree. I doubt audiences would have believed the risk of the assault on the Death Star if every Rebel pilot survived.
You know what I think this is? Wizards is being so gentle with the characters because they've taken the wrong lessons from the past. They've seen people get upset when fan-favorites like Venser or Elspeth get killed off, so now they just won't.
So like how every roil shaper died but Dolan? If all you want is countless redshirt dying then BFZ had plenty of that (that's about all it had). I don't remember Thalia's army having named characters to meaningfully die but that one vampire that almost seemed like they mattered died against Nahiri.
So based on what people said almost no running story regularly kills anyone of any significance, but they regularly kill irrelevant redshirts that they occasionally shine a spotlight on just before they die to trick you into thinking they aren't a redshirt.
Exactly. There’s no shortage of red shirt deaths. (Is there ever?) But those are close to meaningless in adding suspense, realism, and emotional weight to the story. We need something more: named protagonists actually dying, at least on occasion. We used to get this, but now we don’t. And that’s just terrible.
I mean, looking at the entirety of the timespan since they rebooted things, your list of named character deaths is two. Which means roughly a named hero death every five years. Given Theros happened in 2013 we still have another year for that average to hold true, so it's not like the rate of character death has dipped dramatically, it was never high to begin with for Planeswalkers in the modern era.
I mean, looking at the entirety of the timespan since they rebooted things, your list of named character deaths is two. Which means roughly a named hero death every five years. Given Theros happened in 2013 we still have another year for that average to hold true, so it's not like the rate of character death has dipped dramatically, it was never high to begin with for Planeswalkers in the modern era.
Planeswalker deaths are probably a thing of the past, but if you look at legendary creature deaths too for the last few years, there is clearly some decline happening.
Deaths by block since SOM (offscreen deaths, villain deaths, animal deaths, and deaths followed by reanimation marked; characters without cards excluded):
SOM: Venser, Glissa compleated
INN: Mikaeus (reanimated), Griselbrand (villain)
RTR: Melek
THS: Polukranos (animal), Daxos (reanimated), Elspeth, Xenagos (villain)
KTK: Daghatar (offscreen), Shu Yun, Tasigur, Alesha (offscreen), Yasova (offscreen), Reyhan, Shidiqi (offscreen), Anafenza (offscreen, reanimated), Sidisi (offscreen, reanimated), Ugin (reanimated)
ORI: Kiran Nalaar, Kothoped (villain), Alhammaret (villain)
BFZ: Lorthos (animal, no new card), Ulamog (villain) and Kozilek (villain)
SOI: Avacyn and Brisela (both villains)
KLD: No one
I mean, looking at things, barring KTK block the average doesn't look that different, there's usually at most a couple characters a block.
Also I would argue that Avacyn being corrupted and turned into a villain is a hero loss. I'm not quite sure why you're ignoring the fact that she was for a time a good guy just to justify the lack of hero death, she may have ended as a villain but it wasn't any sort of willing thing nor does it change her past as being a hero.
Also I would argue that Avacyn being corrupted and turned into a villain is a hero loss. I'm not quite sure why you're ignoring the fact that she was for a time a good guy just to justify the lack of hero death, she may have ended as a villain but it wasn't any sort of willing thing nor does it change her past as being a hero.
Agreed and this was the point I had also made in my last post (tho I could be clearer). If someone from the gatewatch had been eldrazi-ed by Emrakul and the other where forced to kill them won't that be the same as a hero loss?
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
No, it was never a matter of "heroes" dying or having setbacks. It was all about the protagonists not having "lasting setbacks" (be it death-related or not). Avacyn was never a protagonist - a force of good, yes, but never a protagonist. Perhaps she was "one" for a few stories/articles here and there, but the problem that is the medium that MTG uses for the overall story, pretty much only planeswalkers qualify as "true protagonists" of any sort, because their point of views are stretched dominantly over anyone else's and they have roughly the same vantage point as we do (which is why we're branded as planeswalkers as well).
It's hard to feel "attached" to anything if the protagonists themselves don't really attach themselves to anything "but the greater good". The Gatewatch fought for "Zendikar" and not really any one individual on the plane and so the only way they (and we) would truly feel the loss was if, well, they lost Zendikar. Even if they killed UlaKozi but Zendikar itself actually couldn't withstand the pressure and collapsed, that would have been a victory with a price/setback. Likewise, if they only managed to force UlaKozi off the plane but Zendikar was saved in the process, it would be a similar case (more of "incomplete Victory"). But no, they had to go for "Complete Victory" and that costed the Eldrazi all their reputation until Emrakul tried to salvage it.
What SOI tried was "incomplete Victory", except the process is now all wrong - Emrakul was the only reason they had what looked like an "Incomplete Victory", but the problem that it was in spite of all their efforts rather than because of all their efforts. So, bluntly speaking, they actually lost, but they didn't really pay the price for the loss either because Emrakul "left the game before it ended". So now it sends a message the wrong way that when the Gatewatch loses, they don't suffer the worst consequences either. Granted, Emrakul left some nasty mental scars on Jace, Nissa and Tamiyo, but those didn't last terribly long once they were called for help again... at least it marginally recovered some of the Eldrazi's practically nonexistent reputation post-BFZ.
Note when I say "Incomplete Victory", I meant sacrificing something core to the very objective they were fighting for, not just the sacrifice of any character, named or not, unless it was a protagonist (and by that I meant planeswalker in tandem with the way MTG markets the entire storyline system). Sorin killing Avacyn was the closest thing to achieving that (since he created and understood fully the balanced he strived for)... until Creative turned him into the blatantly morally-gray character that didn't really care for his homeplane after all, which means that loss wasn't all that important to him than it was to the likes of the Gatewatch had they knew.
I hate to say this, but if Pia dies/suffers/is crippled during the revolt and that traumatizes Chandra enough that she now "hates" (or some variation of it) both sides of the conflict (or 3 sides if we distinctly separate the Gatewatch from the Revolt), then it would have been a great "personal battle" for Chandra - Chandra wasn't all that interested in the Revolt, Chandra's true and first priority was always Pia's safety, then followed by her (Pia's) goals. The rest of Gatewatch would seem like they would put everything on an equal scale, the same way they did during BFZ (to be fair Nissa wasn't particularly fond of anyone on the BFZ team then either).
Planeswalker deaths are probably a thing of the past, but if you look at legendary creature deaths too for the last few years, there is clearly some decline happening.
Deaths by block since SOM (offscreen deaths, villain deaths, animal deaths, and deaths followed by reanimation marked; characters without cards excluded):
SOM: Venser, Glissa compleated
INN: Mikaeus (reanimated), Griselbrand (villain)
RTR: Melek
THS: Polukranos (animal), Daxos (reanimated), Elspeth, Xenagos (villain)
KTK: Daghatar (offscreen), Shu Yun, Tasigur, Alesha (offscreen), Yasova (offscreen), Reyhan, Shidiqi (offscreen), Anafenza (offscreen, reanimated), Sidisi (offscreen, reanimated), Ugin (reanimated)
ORI: Kiran Nalaar, Kothoped (villain), Alhammaret (villain)
BFZ: Lorthos (animal, no new card), Ulamog (villain) and Kozilek (villain)
SOI: Avacyn and Brisela (both villains)
KLD: No one
I have some problems with this list. First, if a character gets a card but never plays a role in the story do they really count as a nonredshirt? Second, why are you counting Glissa who isn't dead? Third you are massively padding KTK's numbers by counting people who died 'offscreen' but thousands of years ago. As well as characters who are still 'active' and the same alligence though dead and characters who got cards after the set.
So other than KLD there don't appear to be any decline in deaths. Especially if you don't count the characters that death wasn't an end point.
Look at the proportion of killed Planeswalkers to Legendaries.
They couldn't even kill off Sorin with this whole stasis thing. I dismissed it because it's an appropriate enough revenge for Nahiri to take. I'd sooner see Sorin dead than Avacyn.
Look at the proportion of killed Planeswalkers to Legendaries.
They couldn't even kill off Sorin with this whole stasis thing. I dismissed it because it's an appropriate enough revenge for Nahiri to take. I'd sooner see Sorin dead than Avacyn.
Second that! Especially if Elspeth comes back as a BW walker. Hopefully they bring back Avacyn as the BW sister angel and make her creature type Angel Demon (fallen angel). That would be sweet as hell
But yeah in KLD they could have at the very least killed off Shadowblayde even though she didn't get a card. It would have shown that there's some risk and a price to pay to revolt.
And what's with Advika Taar getting a legendary creature profile then gets slapped on an uncommon?
Planeswalker deaths are probably a thing of the past, but if you look at legendary creature deaths too for the last few years, there is clearly some decline happening.
Deaths by block since SOM (offscreen deaths, villain deaths, animal deaths, and deaths followed by reanimation marked; characters without cards excluded):
SOM: Venser, Glissa compleated
INN: Mikaeus (reanimated), Griselbrand (villain)
RTR: Melek
THS: Polukranos (animal), Daxos (reanimated), Elspeth, Xenagos (villain)
KTK: Daghatar (offscreen), Shu Yun, Tasigur, Alesha (offscreen), Yasova (offscreen), Reyhan, Shidiqi (offscreen), Anafenza (offscreen, reanimated), Sidisi (offscreen, reanimated), Ugin (reanimated)
ORI: Kiran Nalaar, Kothoped (villain), Alhammaret (villain)
BFZ: Lorthos (animal, no new card), Ulamog (villain) and Kozilek (villain)
SOI: Avacyn and Brisela (both villains)
KLD: No one
I have some problems with this list. First, if a character gets a card but never plays a role in the story do they really count as a nonredshirt? Second, why are you counting Glissa who isn't dead? Third you are massively padding KTK's numbers by counting people who died 'offscreen' but thousands of years ago. As well as characters who are still 'active' and the same alligence though dead and characters who got cards after the set.
So other than KLD there don't appear to be any decline in deaths. Especially if you don't count the characters that death wasn't an end point.
1. All of these characters did play some kind of role in the story.
2. Compleation is more or less the Phyrexian equivalent of zombification, so I thought it was worth mentioning. I marked that it was not technically a death, so feel free to ignore it.
3. I know. That’s why I marked them as offscreen or reanimated. Those can be excluded as illegitimate deaths if you want. That still leaves Reyhan, Shu Yun, and Tasigur.
My point was (I should have been clearer about this) that we tend to get at least one meaningful character death per block – that is, a protagonist of some story significance dying onscreen. Villains, non-sapient beings (animals), and offscreen deaths don’t really count. Reanimated characters should not count if the character is still more or less the same person as before (Anafenza and Sidisi are like this, Mikaeus is not). That gives us:
SOM: Venser
INN: Mikaeus (reanimated but lost all personality and such in the process, unlike Sidisi and Anafenza)
RTR: Melek (relatively minor character, but still)
THS: Elspeth and Daxos (also reanimated later but lost his soul and most of his personality)
KTK: Shu Yun and Reyhan
ORI: Kiran Nalaar
BFZ: No one
SOI: Avacyn and Brisela (arguable: technically villains, but former protagonists)
KLD: No one
So we shifted from 6/6 before BFZ to 1/3 (or 0/3) since.
I think we might have a problem here, especially if Amonkhet is similarly lacking in death for our protagonists.
Look at the proportion of killed Planeswalkers to Legendaries.
They couldn't even kill off Sorin with this whole stasis thing. I dismissed it because it's an appropriate enough revenge for Nahiri to take. I'd sooner see Sorin dead than Avacyn.
You’re right that legendaries and planeswalkers should die at about the same rate (planeswalkers are just “ordinary mages” now), but creative had little interest in killing walkers before and seems to have no interest in it at all nowadays.
This bother me, too, but I am willing to compromise. If they don’t want to kill planeswalkers anymore, fine, but they at least need to have a view legendary creatures die on occasion, excluding the villains.
Look at the proportion of killed Planeswalkers to Legendaries.
They couldn't even kill off Sorin with this whole stasis thing. I dismissed it because it's an appropriate enough revenge for Nahiri to take. I'd sooner see Sorin dead than Avacyn.
Second that! Especially if Elspeth comes back as a BW walker. Hopefully they bring back Avacyn as the BW sister angel and make her creature type Angel Demon (fallen angel). That would be sweet as hell
But yeah in KLD they could have at the very least killed off Shadowblayde even though she didn't get a card. It would have shown that there's some risk and a price to pay to revolt.
And what's with Advika Taar getting a legendary creature profile then gets slapped on an uncommon?
Elspeth, Kaya, and Sorin all being WB walkers at the same time would be odd, but not unheard of. We already have three active UR walkers: Dack, Ral, and Saheeli. It just means that they will have to share time and show up less often individually. However, Sorin being stuck in a wall for at least a little while should give Kaya and Elspeth some time to shine, hopefully.
Considering that Avacyn was the one who killed the WB sister, I think that Avacyn returning as the WB sister is unlikely. Reanimating a character is nothing too unusual (especially on Innistrad), but bringing back two as the same character, one of which killed the other… that would require some major retcons or a pretty crazy explanation. The best bet for a WB sister card would be a Commander set (they often feature dead characters), but her being revived in Innistrad 3 wouldn’t be too surprising either.
I agree that Shadowblayde dying would have been better than nothing, card or no card. Also, why didn’t Shadowblayde have a card? She easily could have taken Rishkar’s spot, as both are green elves. Rishkar hasn’t showed up in the story yet, and likely won’t appear at all, since we have only two left and both are focused on story spotlight cards, leaving little room for Rishkar’s introduction. But Shadowblayde has appeared in three already. Seriously, why didn’t she get the green legend slot in AER?
You aren’t the only one concerned about Advika (and Surash), I and many others are also confused and annoyed. There were bios for some characters with cards (Sram, Rishkar), and some without them (Advika, Surash). Some of the legendary creature cards got bios (Sram, Rishkar), and others didn’t (Baral, Yahenni, Kari). Where’s the consistencty?
I tried bringing the issue to Maro’s attention via Blogatog but he keeps dismissing it with the excuse of creative work being done after the cards were designed. But that’s all the more reason that there shouldn’t be bios for characters without cards, since creative should already know which characters got cards by the time they get around to writing and posting character bios. And yet they still screw it up. It’s inconsistent, unprofessional, and sloppy. This has happened with both Kaladesh and Aether Revolt, and I would really like to not see it continue in the future.
His argument was more that they don't want to limit bios to only characters with cards, and I think that just saying "X doesn't have a card" in little text at the bottom of the profile would be fine. These can be potential characters in Commander, Return to X, and theoretically other products, but if we don't know who these characters are we can't exactly ask for them.
My point was (I should have been clearer about this) that we tend to get at least one meaningful character death per block – that is, a protagonist of some story significance dying onscreen. Villains, non-sapient beings (animals), and offscreen deaths don’t really count. Reanimated characters should not count if the character is still more or less the same person as before (Anafenza and Sidisi are like this, Mikaeus is not). That gives us:
SOM: Venser
INN: Mikaeus (reanimated but lost all personality and such in the process, unlike Sidisi and Anafenza)
RTR: Melek (relatively minor character, but still)
THS: Elspeth and Daxos (also reanimated later but lost his soul and most of his personality)
KTK: Shu Yun and Reyhan
ORI: Kiran Nalaar
BFZ: No one
SOI: Avacyn and Brisela (arguable: technically villains, but former protagonists)
KLD: No one
So we shifted from 6/6 before BFZ to 1/3 (or 0/3) since.
I think we might have a problem here, especially if Amonkhet is similarly lacking in death for our protagonists.
Mikaeus did not play a role in INN and Melek's only role was to stand still while Ral killed him. Daxos is gone though not dead so that counts but Elspeth has all but been assured to come back. Personally I don't count any of the people that were introduced in FRF because we knew they were all dead already, though we can count Shu Yun because they got a card and died on screen while Reyhan didn't get a card till later so it doesn't seem right to count. So with an average of 1 death per block we are well within the average for post origins with Avacyn, Gisela, and Bruna all dying in the same block. Once they have strayed form the average it would be time to worry about no one ever dying but until then these claims are premature at best.
I have a question. Why is it that Shadowblayde isn't the green legendary of the set? Because unlike Rishkar, she's actually in the story.
Probably a Hal and Alena/Fourth Angel sister situation all over again. (That is that they were created by the writers for the story articles, LONG after the set was finished.)
His argument was more that they don't want to limit bios to only characters with cards, and I think that just saying "X doesn't have a card" in little text at the bottom of the profile would be fine. These can be potential characters in Commander, Return to X, and theoretically other products, but if we don't know who these characters are we can't exactly ask for them.
Yeah, he threw out that solution but when I (and before that, someone else) tried to confirm that it would be good he said that the creative team was “already overworked” and probably unable to do it. (They’re overworked and still only producing mediocre stories? Really? Then hire more people, obviously.) Hopefully he got the message from after answering 4 or 5 different questions about it (most of them mine), and he will communicate it to the creative team, because I found that really annoying.
Commander sets are a decent solution for unprinted characters but there are already a lot of good candidates for cards from previous planes and stories. So it annoys me that they keep creating 2-3 new ones every block, which will end up stealing spots from characters in desperate need of a card (Urza, Yawgmoth, Serra, Feather, etc.). It also annoys me when they make up new characters for the cards (In C16 alone: Breya, Yidris, Saskia, Tana, Ravos, Tymna, Kraum) or just use flavor text characters (Akiri, Bruse Tarl, Ishai, Thrasios).
My point was (I should have been clearer about this) that we tend to get at least one meaningful character death per block – that is, a protagonist of some story significance dying onscreen. Villains, non-sapient beings (animals), and offscreen deaths don’t really count. Reanimated characters should not count if the character is still more or less the same person as before (Anafenza and Sidisi are like this, Mikaeus is not). That gives us:
SOM: Venser
INN: Mikaeus (reanimated but lost all personality and such in the process, unlike Sidisi and Anafenza)
RTR: Melek (relatively minor character, but still)
THS: Elspeth and Daxos (also reanimated later but lost his soul and most of his personality)
KTK: Shu Yun and Reyhan
ORI: Kiran Nalaar
BFZ: No one
SOI: Avacyn and Brisela (arguable: technically villains, but former protagonists)
KLD: No one
So we shifted from 6/6 before BFZ to 1/3 (or 0/3) since.
I think we might have a problem here, especially if Amonkhet is similarly lacking in death for our protagonists.
Mikaeus did not play a role in INN and Melek's only role was to stand still while Ral killed him. Daxos is gone though not dead so that counts but Elspeth has all but been assured to come back. Personally I don't count any of the people that were introduced in FRF because we knew they were all dead already, though we can count Shu Yun because they got a card and died on screen while Reyhan didn't get a card till later so it doesn't seem right to count. So with an average of 1 death per block we are well within the average for post origins with Avacyn, Gisela, and Bruna all dying in the same block. Once they have strayed form the average it would be time to worry about no one ever dying but until then these claims are premature at best.
Mikaeus and Daxos have returned from the dead, but they aren’t the same like Anafenza or Sidisi. Notice the color identity shift. Mikaeus lost his intelligence and personality, while Daxos seems to have lost most of his intelligence and personality, not to mention his soul (eidolon). Elspeth isn’t back yet so it still counts for now. Reyhan can be excluded if you want but Shu Yun still died onscreen after getting a card. Melek was, to be fair, a minor character. You can exclude virtually anyone if you narrow your criteria enough, but still, I’m willing to not count Melek, so RTR didn’t have a real death. And I have decided that Avaycn’s and Brisela’s deaths count.
So we have gone from 5/6 pre-BFZ (all but RTR from SOM-ORI) to 1/3 post- (only SOI, not BFZ or KLD). I’d like that number to increase. A lot. If Bolas doesn’t personally kill at least three different named protagonists, and a few thousand nameless ones, I will be disappointed.
I have a question. Why is it that Shadowblayde isn't the green legendary of the set? Because unlike Rishkar, she's actually in the story.
I know right? Seriously, what the hell? Design and development work years ahead, yet creative can’t get their ***** together except for what, two weeks in advance? Notice the discrepancies between the art book and the actual stories, between the stories and the legendary creatures, between the legendary creatures and the character bios.
Seriously, how disorganized and unprofessional can they be? If they’re “overworked” (according to Maro), then hire more people. Or hire better people (seriously, some of those writers…). It appalls me that design and development can be (generally) so on top of anything while creative struggles to keep anything consistent and organized nowadays.
I have a question. Why is it that Shadowblayde isn't the green legendary of the set? Because unlike Rishkar, she's actually in the story.
Probably a Hal and Alena/Fourth Angel sister situation all over again. (That is that they were created by the writers for the story articles, LONG after the set was finished.)
Advika did get a card, it's Scrapper Champion. But it's an uncommon when she is supposedly a legendery
One, this doesn’t count. Two, Reyhan, Last of the Abzan was supposedly Dragonscale General before she got a real card (with a completely different color identity, no less), so Advika could still get a real card, and it could be very different from her the “character card” she was given in AER.
Again, creative can’t keep their characters straight. Compensating for it later would be nice, but it comes either at the cost of other legendary creature cards in a Commander set, or much too late in Return to Kaladesh.
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I'd argue Avacyn counts as a significant death. She was a villain during SoI but she was unwilling, driven mad by Nahiri, which feels less like a villain being defeated. As PapaThor and many other expressed it was quite emotional to read her death and it will continue to have an impact on Innistrad.
Plus Avacyn was a huge character, first legendary creature in a long time to be the key character of a set instead of a planeswalker.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
There's nothing for these characters to fear, frankly. Or work towards or desire, or anything. They evidently can just show up on worlds, best its overlord legends and leave victorious. Okay. I miss the days when Beatrice or whatever her name was warned Jace not to tap into too much of Kamigawa's mana lest he provoke a Kami manifestation as Kamigawa's gods are hostile to foreign mages, and their wrath could spell the end of him. Or Bolas claiming that taking on 4 powerful Demons on Lilliana's behalf was a feat even for him. You know, actual reasons to fear and respect a plane's metaphysics. Not charging headstrong into challenging Avacyn or spitting jokes during a fight with a major deity ruling one of the vastest domains on an entire plane.
The Blight We Were Born For truly made BFZ and the titans admirably mysterious, and this was ruined. You mean to tell me Baral is a greater threat than Kozilek, Butcher of Truth? If these Planeswalkers aren't going to have anything to look upon with awe, respect and even fear when entering worlds, then really this entire concept of a Multiverse is pointless.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Hopefully? The characters definitely need time to breath and develop a bit more naturally.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Did anyone ever think Jack and Annie were going to die in speed, despite the train barrelling towards the end of the track?
Did anyone ever think Hiller and Levinson were going to die in Independence Day, despite being trapped in the mothership with a nuke about to go off?
Did anyone think John McClane was ever going to die... ever?
And all those scenes were intense and awesome, because the human psyche is willing to suspend disbelief,and enjoy the thrills of a rollercoaster ride, despite the knowledge deep down that at the end of the day, you're still pulling into the station safely.
I think you're missing most subtext with all of this.
Avacyn didn't die because of "a Planeswalker"- she died because of Sorin. Her creator. Who felt he had no other option- how come he couldn't fix her, or create another? Maybe because he had severe limitations to do anything but destroy- and thus leave Innistrad completely open?
Killing the Eldrazi Titans was very much a right place, right people, right time scenario, and was made out to be. You needed a mage capable of channelling manalines like Nissa, and a fire mage like Chandra, and a world full of turbulent mana like Zendikar. Even then, it nearly failed, and came so close to destroying Zendikar in the process that Kiora panicked and nearly wrecked everything. And it nearly killed both Chandra and Nissa, and left them weak for several weeks. In short, it was almost as much luck as it was power. You can notice they tried the same thing on Innistrad- against only one Eldrazi titan, on a world not nearly as decimated as Zendikar was, and it failed miserably. As did any attempt to imprison her- they were too weak and Emrakul had to do it for herself.
In addition, the Eldrazi were only conceived as invincible because no-one had ever even thought about drawing their "interplanar bodies" into a plane- mainly because no one had the knowledge that Ugin had until he told Jace- which he never would have done had he known about Chandra and Nissa, because he didn't want the Eldrazi actually killed.
So in the end Jace came up with the plan, and Nissa and Chandra tag teamed to do it, but it was Ugin that did most of the figuring out for Jace, and it was Zendikar that had the mana for Nissa. Without either of those external forces helping, it would have been a disaster. And if it wasn't for Emrakul being all "yeah, okay, I'm done here", Innistrad would have been a disaster too.
Now to Kaladesh- they haven't exactly "just shown up and bested its overlord legends". We're 16 stories into the block, and the Consulate isn't even close to falling. Chandra has spent the entire block getting her butt handed to her, and needing others to save her. They needed a six on one to hold any advantage over Tezzeret in the arena. SEVEN Planeswalkers (even five after Chandra and Nissa ran off) couldn't hold the aether hub. Seven planeswalkers couldn't figure out a way to bring down a 6/5 ship- Jace's illusions failed, and they needed a cunning fifteen year old skypirate to trigger a whale kamikaze attack to do so.
In short, the Gatewatch is getting help and luck far more than they're just doing things on their own.
So are Chandra and Gideon going to survive the Hope of Ghirapur mission? This is a no spoiler thread but... YES. My guess is Gideon, at the last second, embraces Chandra, shielding her with his indestructible body, and this leads to some sort of romance between the two. (Yes, its predictable, no I don't care- it'll still be fun to read if its written well) Are they really going to beat Tezzeret? Are they really going to bring down the Consulate? How much of a "victory" is actually going to happen here, and if there is any, what amount is actually attributed to the Gatewatch's contributions.
Fair enough. Avacyn's death had emotional impact. But given that she turned evil first, it still does nothing to contradict the "heroes win with no casualties" pattern of stories we have had recently. The story has a number of predictability issues, and the lack of death among any protagonists (even side characters) is a major one of them. Avacyn, Brisela, Kozilek, and Ulamog were all pretty clearly antagonistic. That means that we haven't had a protagonist (in the loosest definition of the word) die since Origins, a year and a half ago. (Lorthos doesn't really count, as we was just a large animal and really only fighting Kozilek because Kiora basically used mind control on him.)
Once again (how many times must I say this?), I'm not asking for main characters to die. As nice of a plot twist as it is when one dies (Venser, Elspeth), it doesn't appear to be something that creative has any interest in any more. They want consistency and brand recognition, and that requires a stable cast of alive characters (the Gatewatch).
Your examples are very different from what I'm talking about in that they only mention one or two main characters per story. I'm not just talking about main characters, and I'm talking about a lot more than two. Even if you exclude the Gatewatch (for reasons stated above), all other planeswalkers (creative seems to not want to kill off any planeswalkers anymore), villains (who tend to lack the emotional weight associated with a hero's death), and characters without cards (extremely minor characters, as these tend to be, are also lacking in emotional weight), that still leaves dozens of characters within the past year and a half. The vast majority have been directly involved in some sort of conflict. Not a single one of them has been killed. Hell, few have even been injured. That extremely, ridiculously unlikely to happen.
So one or two (or even five or six) main characters predictably surviving the conflict is forgivable. Dozens of side characters all coincidentally surviving the same (very lethal) conflict is not. Plot armor for a few (with practical reason) is acceptable, if a little uninteresting. Plot armor for every protagonist removes all sense of risk and unpredictability from the story. And that, in my opinion, is unacceptable.
Every person on the elevator, and every person on the bus in Speed lived, minus Helen (who was a moron, and only purpose in the plot was to die). Exactly three named characters died in the movie- Helen, Harry (Jack's partner), and Dennis Hopper's villain.
The only named characters to die in Independence Day were David's friend, the FIrst Lady, Professor Okin, and Russell Case. Only Case played any significant role in the plot.
So no, its really not that different. Unless a character is there specifically to die for a poignant storyline moment (Lorthos in BFZ, Okin in ID4), if you've got a name, you tend to live while its the nameless that are killed en masse. Its been a popular fiction trope since the dawn of time, using slaughter of faceless people to set the mood and show peril, while keeping major, named characters alive with a few exceptions, both to avoid distracting the viewer from the plot with an emotional loss, and for the sake of using said characters again in sequels.
Also should be pointed out that most of the "dozens" of characters you mention were actually left fairly ambiguous fatewise. Many fates were actually left unclear by nonmention, because once they served their purpose in the plot, they were removed from focus.
Also should be pointed out that Kaladesh is actually quite different as well, in that neither side in the conflict is specifically out to kill the other side. There's been plenty of violence on both sides, but its also been clear that when the opportunity to subdue someone non-lethally has arisen, both sides, with a few exceptions (coughlilianacough) have shown more than happy to do that.
I fully agree. I doubt audiences would have believed the risk of the assault on the Death Star if every Rebel pilot survived.
You know what I think this is? Wizards is being so gentle with the characters because they've taken the wrong lessons from the past. They've seen people get upset when fan-favorites like Venser or Elspeth get killed off, so now they just won't.
So based on what people said almost no running story regularly kills anyone of any significance, but they regularly kill irrelevant redshirts that they occasionally shine a spotlight on just before they die to trick you into thinking they aren't a redshirt.
Still not a good comparison. For one thing, your examples still (I would assume) have far fewer named characters than Magic has had in the past year and a half. And they actually have some deaths. Sure, they may be minor characters, but they actually have names and identities, unlike any protagonist causality in Magic recently. If we got just one death like the ones you described per block, I would be satisfied. But we aren’t. And therein lies the problem.
It is a common fiction trope to kill the faceless people and spare the real characters, but there’s a time and a place for this. A legitimate character death can be used for emotional weight and to actually keep a sense of realism in the material. The more named characters you have, the less believable it is for everyone survive. As I said, it’s fine for the 5-6 members of the Gatewatch to not die. But having the Gatewatch, all the other planeswalkers, and all the other legendary creatures (save a few villains), many dozens of characters in total, all survive considerably lethal conflicts… that’s unacceptable. Statistically, it’s virtually impossible. When you actually stop to think about it for a second, it sounds pretty ridiculous.
While, yes, many characters have ambiguous fates, they should be assumed alive until proven dead. I’m pretty damn sure that they won’t return to Innistrad and tell us “Remember Thalia? She died during the Eldrazi invasion. We didn’t tell you she died, but we didn’t tell you she lived either, so this is ok.” There would be outrage from the fans. If they decide that someone will die, they should (and probably will) show us. So, by default, everyone not proclaimed dead should be presumed alive. Hell, we were even told the Pia died and she turned out to be alive, so even off-screen “deaths” aren’t fully trustworthy.
While Kaladesh isn’t an all-out Eldrazi invasion, Aether Revolt is still a story about a violent revolution and should be treated as such. Unfortunately, we have been given only a few glimpses of the battles but we have still seen both sides resorting to killing. We know Yahenni and presumably Liliana have already killed members of the Consulate. Chandra likely has done so, too. The renegade side is full of black- and red-aligned characters who would probably have little problem killing agents of Consulate oppression. We also know that Dovin Baan, who originally wanted to avoid killing anyone, authorized a plan that would involve death. Plus Baral has probably taken a number of rebel lives, or at least would be willing to. I think we can conclude that, in general, the members of each side are willing to kill members of the other if necessary.
So with a violent and deadly revolution taking place across the city, and all of our characters being right in the middle of it, it’s close to miraculous that not one of them died. Oviya Pashiri, a frail old woman, has twice come close to death at the hands of Baral. How the hell did she survive? Seriously!? If they aren’t going to let anyone die, they could at least spare us from multiple near-death situations like this where it is, frankly, absolutely ridiculous that no one died. And I’m not just talking about Kaladesh. BFZ and SOI featured significantly more lethal circumstances. They were both just as full of near-death experiences, yet just as devoid of actual character deaths. (Once again, excluding villains and faceless, nameless red shirts.)
True. The red shirt deaths do help add realism. But every named character coincidentally surviving the conflict(s) takes away from it.
Negative reactions to Venser’s and Elspeth’s deaths are probably the reason for what we’ve been getting today. For one thing, deaths like those remind us that anyone can die. This keeps actual suspense and realism in the story. But even if they don’t want to kill major characters like planeswalkers anymore (which I am willing to accept), they can at least let a minor character die every once in a while. And yet they don’t.
Exactly. There’s no shortage of red shirt deaths. (Is there ever?) But those are close to meaningless in adding suspense, realism, and emotional weight to the story. We need something more: named protagonists actually dying, at least on occasion. We used to get this, but now we don’t. And that’s just terrible.
Planeswalker deaths are probably a thing of the past, but if you look at legendary creature deaths too for the last few years, there is clearly some decline happening.
Deaths by block since SOM (offscreen deaths, villain deaths, animal deaths, and deaths followed by reanimation marked; characters without cards excluded):
SOM: Venser, Glissa compleated
INN: Mikaeus (reanimated), Griselbrand (villain)
RTR: Melek
THS: Polukranos (animal), Daxos (reanimated), Elspeth, Xenagos (villain)
KTK: Daghatar (offscreen), Shu Yun, Tasigur, Alesha (offscreen), Yasova (offscreen), Reyhan, Shidiqi (offscreen), Anafenza (offscreen, reanimated), Sidisi (offscreen, reanimated), Ugin (reanimated)
ORI: Kiran Nalaar, Kothoped (villain), Alhammaret (villain)
BFZ: Lorthos (animal, no new card), Ulamog (villain) and Kozilek (villain)
SOI: Avacyn and Brisela (both villains)
KLD: No one
Also I would argue that Avacyn being corrupted and turned into a villain is a hero loss. I'm not quite sure why you're ignoring the fact that she was for a time a good guy just to justify the lack of hero death, she may have ended as a villain but it wasn't any sort of willing thing nor does it change her past as being a hero.
Agreed and this was the point I had also made in my last post (tho I could be clearer). If someone from the gatewatch had been eldrazi-ed by Emrakul and the other where forced to kill them won't that be the same as a hero loss?
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
It's hard to feel "attached" to anything if the protagonists themselves don't really attach themselves to anything "but the greater good". The Gatewatch fought for "Zendikar" and not really any one individual on the plane and so the only way they (and we) would truly feel the loss was if, well, they lost Zendikar. Even if they killed UlaKozi but Zendikar itself actually couldn't withstand the pressure and collapsed, that would have been a victory with a price/setback. Likewise, if they only managed to force UlaKozi off the plane but Zendikar was saved in the process, it would be a similar case (more of "incomplete Victory"). But no, they had to go for "Complete Victory" and that costed the Eldrazi all their reputation until Emrakul tried to salvage it.
What SOI tried was "incomplete Victory", except the process is now all wrong - Emrakul was the only reason they had what looked like an "Incomplete Victory", but the problem that it was in spite of all their efforts rather than because of all their efforts. So, bluntly speaking, they actually lost, but they didn't really pay the price for the loss either because Emrakul "left the game before it ended". So now it sends a message the wrong way that when the Gatewatch loses, they don't suffer the worst consequences either. Granted, Emrakul left some nasty mental scars on Jace, Nissa and Tamiyo, but those didn't last terribly long once they were called for help again... at least it marginally recovered some of the Eldrazi's practically nonexistent reputation post-BFZ.
Note when I say "Incomplete Victory", I meant sacrificing something core to the very objective they were fighting for, not just the sacrifice of any character, named or not, unless it was a protagonist (and by that I meant planeswalker in tandem with the way MTG markets the entire storyline system). Sorin killing Avacyn was the closest thing to achieving that (since he created and understood fully the balanced he strived for)... until Creative turned him into the blatantly morally-gray character that didn't really care for his homeplane after all, which means that loss wasn't all that important to him than it was to the likes of the Gatewatch had they knew.
I hate to say this, but if Pia dies/suffers/is crippled during the revolt and that traumatizes Chandra enough that she now "hates" (or some variation of it) both sides of the conflict (or 3 sides if we distinctly separate the Gatewatch from the Revolt), then it would have been a great "personal battle" for Chandra - Chandra wasn't all that interested in the Revolt, Chandra's true and first priority was always Pia's safety, then followed by her (Pia's) goals. The rest of Gatewatch would seem like they would put everything on an equal scale, the same way they did during BFZ (to be fair Nissa wasn't particularly fond of anyone on the BFZ team then either).
So other than KLD there don't appear to be any decline in deaths. Especially if you don't count the characters that death wasn't an end point.
They couldn't even kill off Sorin with this whole stasis thing. I dismissed it because it's an appropriate enough revenge for Nahiri to take. I'd sooner see Sorin dead than Avacyn.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Second that! Especially if Elspeth comes back as a BW walker. Hopefully they bring back Avacyn as the BW sister angel and make her creature type Angel Demon (fallen angel). That would be sweet as hell
But yeah in KLD they could have at the very least killed off Shadowblayde even though she didn't get a card. It would have shown that there's some risk and a price to pay to revolt.
And what's with Advika Taar getting a legendary creature profile then gets slapped on an uncommon?
1. All of these characters did play some kind of role in the story.
2. Compleation is more or less the Phyrexian equivalent of zombification, so I thought it was worth mentioning. I marked that it was not technically a death, so feel free to ignore it.
3. I know. That’s why I marked them as offscreen or reanimated. Those can be excluded as illegitimate deaths if you want. That still leaves Reyhan, Shu Yun, and Tasigur.
My point was (I should have been clearer about this) that we tend to get at least one meaningful character death per block – that is, a protagonist of some story significance dying onscreen. Villains, non-sapient beings (animals), and offscreen deaths don’t really count. Reanimated characters should not count if the character is still more or less the same person as before (Anafenza and Sidisi are like this, Mikaeus is not). That gives us:
SOM: Venser
INN: Mikaeus (reanimated but lost all personality and such in the process, unlike Sidisi and Anafenza)
RTR: Melek (relatively minor character, but still)
THS: Elspeth and Daxos (also reanimated later but lost his soul and most of his personality)
KTK: Shu Yun and Reyhan
ORI: Kiran Nalaar
BFZ: No one
SOI: Avacyn and Brisela (arguable: technically villains, but former protagonists)
KLD: No one
So we shifted from 6/6 before BFZ to 1/3 (or 0/3) since.
I think we might have a problem here, especially if Amonkhet is similarly lacking in death for our protagonists.
You’re right that legendaries and planeswalkers should die at about the same rate (planeswalkers are just “ordinary mages” now), but creative had little interest in killing walkers before and seems to have no interest in it at all nowadays.
This bother me, too, but I am willing to compromise. If they don’t want to kill planeswalkers anymore, fine, but they at least need to have a view legendary creatures die on occasion, excluding the villains.
Elspeth, Kaya, and Sorin all being WB walkers at the same time would be odd, but not unheard of. We already have three active UR walkers: Dack, Ral, and Saheeli. It just means that they will have to share time and show up less often individually. However, Sorin being stuck in a wall for at least a little while should give Kaya and Elspeth some time to shine, hopefully.
Considering that Avacyn was the one who killed the WB sister, I think that Avacyn returning as the WB sister is unlikely. Reanimating a character is nothing too unusual (especially on Innistrad), but bringing back two as the same character, one of which killed the other… that would require some major retcons or a pretty crazy explanation. The best bet for a WB sister card would be a Commander set (they often feature dead characters), but her being revived in Innistrad 3 wouldn’t be too surprising either.
I agree that Shadowblayde dying would have been better than nothing, card or no card. Also, why didn’t Shadowblayde have a card? She easily could have taken Rishkar’s spot, as both are green elves. Rishkar hasn’t showed up in the story yet, and likely won’t appear at all, since we have only two left and both are focused on story spotlight cards, leaving little room for Rishkar’s introduction. But Shadowblayde has appeared in three already. Seriously, why didn’t she get the green legend slot in AER?
You aren’t the only one concerned about Advika (and Surash), I and many others are also confused and annoyed. There were bios for some characters with cards (Sram, Rishkar), and some without them (Advika, Surash). Some of the legendary creature cards got bios (Sram, Rishkar), and others didn’t (Baral, Yahenni, Kari). Where’s the consistencty?
I tried bringing the issue to Maro’s attention via Blogatog but he keeps dismissing it with the excuse of creative work being done after the cards were designed. But that’s all the more reason that there shouldn’t be bios for characters without cards, since creative should already know which characters got cards by the time they get around to writing and posting character bios. And yet they still screw it up. It’s inconsistent, unprofessional, and sloppy. This has happened with both Kaladesh and Aether Revolt, and I would really like to not see it continue in the future.
Probably a Hal and Alena/Fourth Angel sister situation all over again. (That is that they were created by the writers for the story articles, LONG after the set was finished.)
Yeah, he threw out that solution but when I (and before that, someone else) tried to confirm that it would be good he said that the creative team was “already overworked” and probably unable to do it. (They’re overworked and still only producing mediocre stories? Really? Then hire more people, obviously.) Hopefully he got the message from after answering 4 or 5 different questions about it (most of them mine), and he will communicate it to the creative team, because I found that really annoying.
Commander sets are a decent solution for unprinted characters but there are already a lot of good candidates for cards from previous planes and stories. So it annoys me that they keep creating 2-3 new ones every block, which will end up stealing spots from characters in desperate need of a card (Urza, Yawgmoth, Serra, Feather, etc.). It also annoys me when they make up new characters for the cards (In C16 alone: Breya, Yidris, Saskia, Tana, Ravos, Tymna, Kraum) or just use flavor text characters (Akiri, Bruse Tarl, Ishai, Thrasios).
Mikaeus and Daxos have returned from the dead, but they aren’t the same like Anafenza or Sidisi. Notice the color identity shift. Mikaeus lost his intelligence and personality, while Daxos seems to have lost most of his intelligence and personality, not to mention his soul (eidolon). Elspeth isn’t back yet so it still counts for now. Reyhan can be excluded if you want but Shu Yun still died onscreen after getting a card. Melek was, to be fair, a minor character. You can exclude virtually anyone if you narrow your criteria enough, but still, I’m willing to not count Melek, so RTR didn’t have a real death. And I have decided that Avaycn’s and Brisela’s deaths count.
So we have gone from 5/6 pre-BFZ (all but RTR from SOM-ORI) to 1/3 post- (only SOI, not BFZ or KLD). I’d like that number to increase. A lot. If Bolas doesn’t personally kill at least three different named protagonists, and a few thousand nameless ones, I will be disappointed.
I know right? Seriously, what the hell? Design and development work years ahead, yet creative can’t get their ***** together except for what, two weeks in advance? Notice the discrepancies between the art book and the actual stories, between the stories and the legendary creatures, between the legendary creatures and the character bios.
Seriously, how disorganized and unprofessional can they be? If they’re “overworked” (according to Maro), then hire more people. Or hire better people (seriously, some of those writers…). It appalls me that design and development can be (generally) so on top of anything while creative struggles to keep anything consistent and organized nowadays.
See above.
One, this doesn’t count. Two, Reyhan, Last of the Abzan was supposedly Dragonscale General before she got a real card (with a completely different color identity, no less), so Advika could still get a real card, and it could be very different from her the “character card” she was given in AER.
Again, creative can’t keep their characters straight. Compensating for it later would be nice, but it comes either at the cost of other legendary creature cards in a Commander set, or much too late in Return to Kaladesh.