A lot of people here seem to be blanket-stating Nahiri as "evil." Now to be clear, like Sorin most every action she's taken in this block has been in the wrong, but to claim that necessarily implies evil is another story. I think very few of the characters in the story at this point can be described so simply as "good" or "evil." Most fall in line on the spectrum somewhere, and Nahiri is no exception. She's mentally unstable and purely obsessed with vengenace, but now that that has at least in her mind partially been accomplished, we don't know where her next motives and plans lie. It could be vengeance upon Ugin. Could be a reconciliation with the dragon and turning him against Sorin. Could be some interaction with Bolas. Could be redemption. We don't know yet, so it's hard to just say Nahiri is evil. Completely and utterly in the wrong in this block, yes, but to her broken mind it was a case of an eye for an eye. Evil doesn't need justification to enact harm, ala Ob Nixilis or Tibalt. Nahiri, although very incorrectly, saw the justification in her actions.
So tl:Dr, threat currently, but until Creative decides what to do with her next, hard to say menace. Given how quickly creative pivoted the opinions of those here on Sorin when they ripped out any non-nihilistic characterization the guy had, they could just as easily write Nahiri as cured when we see her next. The block's writing overall has been fine to pretty good depending on the macro vs micro lens you look through, but Nahiri and Sorin both have been gutted like trout on the alter of plot convenience.
If Nahiri just flips around after what happened in SOI I'll be disappointed. She really doesn't seem likely to just change that way. And I don't think she views herself as evil, but I think that her actions generally are. How strongly they'll continue after this plane is hard to say, but I'd hazard a guess that it's pretty likely to continue given how her story here seems to end.
Honestly, Nahiri is just a childish menace. She's going nuts over Sorin "damaging" her world, yet completely ignoring the fact that she was part of the Eldrazi getting planted on Zendikar. I honestly have no sympathy for her, and once she began this plan, any sympathy I may have felt was completely gone.
Also, how did she even know where Emrakul was, and how did she get him to infect Avacyn & the angels? Was her madness so strong that Emrakul drifted towards her, or was it because of bad writing?
Also, how did she even know where Emrakul was, and how did she get him to infect Avacyn & the angels? Was her madness so strong that Emrakul drifted towards her, or was it because of bad writing?
Cryptolith. One, Nahiri has the know how to attract Emrakul since they did it with Zendikar. Two, a combination of Cryptoliths and Emrakul screwed Avacyn and the angels go mad.
She's going nuts over Sorin "damaging" her world, yet completely ignoring the fact that she was part of the Eldrazi getting planted on Zendikar.
Well, there's the fact that she was led to believe that was the only way to deal with the Eldrazi (Ugin kinda omitted the fact they could be killed, and she probably still doesn't know the truth) so they wouldn't end up omnomnoming the multiverse. And the fact that Sorin and Ugin had promised they'd be there in case anything went wrong, a promise both broke.
Trying to do the right thing and then getting screwed over kinda sucks.
Don't forget that she was locked up in the Helvault for 1000 years with demons, Avacyn, and who knows what else. She had over ten lifetimes to sit in darkness, go completely insane, and plot her revenge. So if I had to choose between her being "evil" or "crazy", I'd pick crazy.
Nahiri is most definitely acting on blind rage. She was freed from the Helvault and immediately returned to her home to find it being destroyed. Since she knows Sorin doesn't give a crap, and Ugin is MIA, she assumes Zendikar is lost, and goes for Sorin. She doesn't know that Ulamog and Kozilek were destroyed, and if she did then SoI probably wouldn't have happened.
That said, it's possible that the Eldrazi are something like antibodies in the Blind Eternities, erasing corrupt or dying planes and helping to heal the Multiverse. Which is why Bolas might have released them... If they heal the mending then he gets his power back.
If that's true, then Ugin was right all along, and they shouldn't be destroyed, lest something worse happen.
Y'all are forgetting that Sorin basically coerced Nahari when she was young into setting up her entire plane for sacrifice, lied directly to her about his plans and intentions, broke all his promises and vows, and was fully ready to let all the inhabitants of Zendikar just die because it didn't affect him and he didn't care. Nahiri, realizing that her and her entire world were just being used calls Sorin out on this, to which he just snidely tells her to go screw off and that he didn't want to hear about it and refused to accept any type of accountability for his actions. On top of that, after trying to hold him accountable for his actions and his vows to the people of Zendikar, he imprisons Nahiri to escape responsibility, and with that he basically condemns Zendikar to die. I feel like the only reason he want back to Zendikar when the Eldrazi reawoke was because he knew Nahiri was out of the picture and someone had to be the janitor.
The entire arc of this block is the epitome of eye for an eye. Now, unleashing an Eldrazi titan on a plan is a pretty harsh way to exact revenge, but for all Nahiri knows Zendikar died because of Sorin. Nahiri has her reasons, solid ones. Vilify Nahiri for her actions, understand where she's coming from, but also vilify Sorin for using someone's entire WORLD like he did.
Also, because of the intense history behind her actions on Innistrad, there's no way she'd try this on another plane. I highly highly doubt she's not a permanent villain or "menace" to the multiverse. She's just a temporary anti-villain for the block.
Y'all are forgetting that Sorin basically coerced Nahari when she was young into setting up her entire plane for sacrifice, lied directly to her about his plans and intentions, broke all his promises and vows, and was fully ready to let all the inhabitants of Zendikar just die because it didn't affect him and he didn't care. Nahiri, realizing that her and her entire world were just being used calls Sorin out on this, to which he just snidely tells her to go screw off and that he didn't want to hear about it and refused to accept any type of accountability for his actions. On top of that, after trying to hold him accountable for his actions and his vows to the people of Zendikar, he imprisons Nahiri to escape responsibility, and with that he basically condemns Zendikar to die. I feel like the only reason he want back to Zendikar when the Eldrazi reawoke was because he knew Nahiri was out of the picture and someone had to be the janitor.
The entire arc of this block is the epitome of eye for an eye. Now, unleashing an Eldrazi titan on a plan is a pretty harsh way to exact revenge, but for all Nahiri knows Zendikar died because of Sorin. Nahiri has her reasons, solid ones. Vilify Nahiri for her actions, understand where she's coming from, but also vilify Sorin for using someone's entire WORLD like he did.
Also, because of the intense history behind her actions on Innistrad, there's no way she'd try this on another plane. I highly highly doubt she's not a permanent villain or "menace" to the multiverse. She's just a temporary anti-villain for the block.
Artbook Spoilers:
The way Nahiri leaves Innistrad, to me, seems likely to indicate she will continue to be an issue. Innistrad doesn't feel like a one off thing. What will happen next, and when, is anyone's guess of course, but I don't think she will start being "good" after this. At best she's just snapped mentally.
Don't forget that she was locked up in the Helvault for 1000 years with demons, Avacyn, and who knows what else. She had over ten lifetimes to sit in darkness, go completely insane, and plot her revenge. So if I had to choose between her being "evil" or "crazy", I'd pick crazy.
The thing is, for me, the way her story read she doesn't seem to have gone mad within the Helvault at all. In fact what we see is her creating a coping mechanism to avoid losing her mind, a mechanism that she doesn't break from for any signr amount of time until the Helvault is broken.
This is all kind of sad, too, because prior to this, in her first story, she was certainly an altruistic character and I was rooting for her in her fight against Sorin(who sorely deserves an ass whooping) but her turn to wrecking Innistrad in the story feels like a heel face turn that makes little sense.
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"Pop in, find a dragon, roast a dragon."
-Chandra Nalaar
The thing is, for me, the way her story read she doesn't seem to have gone mad within the Helvault at all. In fact what we see is her creating a coping mechanism to avoid losing her mind, a mechanism that she doesn't break from for any signr amount of time until the Helvault is broken.
Nothing less crazy than spending every waking moment painstakingly building models!
Y'all are forgetting that Sorin basically coerced Nahari when she was young into setting up her entire plane for sacrifice, lied directly to her about his plans and intentions, broke all his promises and vows, and was fully ready to let all the inhabitants of Zendikar just die because it didn't affect him and he didn't care. Nahiri, realizing that her and her entire world were just being used calls Sorin out on this, to which he just snidely tells her to go screw off and that he didn't want to hear about it and refused to accept any type of accountability for his actions. On top of that, after trying to hold him accountable for his actions and his vows to the people of Zendikar, he imprisons Nahiri to escape responsibility, and with that he basically condemns Zendikar to die. I feel like the only reason he want back to Zendikar when the Eldrazi reawoke was because he knew Nahiri was out of the picture and someone had to be the janitor.
The entire arc of this block is the epitome of eye for an eye. Now, unleashing an Eldrazi titan on a plan is a pretty harsh way to exact revenge, but for all Nahiri knows Zendikar died because of Sorin. Nahiri has her reasons, solid ones. Vilify Nahiri for her actions, understand where she's coming from, but also vilify Sorin for using someone's entire WORLD like he did.
Also, because of the intense history behind her actions on Innistrad, there's no way she'd try this on another plane. I highly highly doubt she's not a permanent villain or "menace" to the multiverse. She's just a temporary anti-villain for the block.
Two wrongs don't make a right. Sorin is definitely an immense douche at best, but that will never clean up Nahiri's infliction of horror on bystanders who had nothing to do with it.
I can't understand those Nahiri sympathisants who manage to "explain" her actions as if they are logical or understandable. No they are not!
Yes she was wronged, no that does not give her the right, moral or otherwise, to do what she did. A lot of what she reasoned herself in her story is not relate able at all to me, honestly she appears like a typical manga/anime villain. "You wronged me once, now I'm gonna destroy everything you hold dear!" ....uuuuh what? Biyatch, you crazy!
Please Wizards, no redemption arc or whatever nonsense for Nahiri. Make her the villain for another set for whatever bogus reason again, let the Gatewatch destroy her and then find another female Kor, give her Nahiris haircut and make her a planeswalker somehow and voila, her fanbase should be mollified.
Are we sure Nahiri's insanity is natural? The last time she showed up before this, there were some implications that she'd been manipulated by the Eldrazi. I'm honestly not convinced that this wasn't a long game by Emrakul.
Anyway, I think it's extremely unlikely Nahiri will be redeemed, but she may end up doing something to become a more viable long term player than "Was in prison, then went mad." I'm wondering if she'll end up fusing or corrupted by the Eldrazi and become their "new" form post-Emrakul's defeat similar to how Kerrigan replaced the Overmind.
Especially since Phyrexia didn't corrupt any of the 'Walkers last time around. There's a large opening for "Insane and insanely powerful character spreads plagues to planes out of a misguided sense of revenge."
That goes double it WoTC wants to keep the possibility of more Eldrazi in the future. They'll need to change somehow, and having them fuse with Nahiri and become something less cosmic horror and more biological-plague horror seems like the only way besides adding more Titans.
It wasn't some sort of minor wrong. I don't think Nahiri is in the right any, but Sorin messed up in a huge manner. Both of them are in the wrong, it's really weird that anyone would defend either of them. Nahiri brought the Eldrazi to Innistrad, but Sorin couldn't display even the slightest bit of understanding on why someone might be upset with his actions. Even just a little bit would have been fine, but instead he doubled down and acted like he didn't do anything wrong.
I can't understand those Nahiri sympathisants who manage to "explain" her actions as if they are logical or understandable. No they are not!
Yes she was wronged, no that does not give her the right, moral or otherwise, to do what she did.
There is no connection between these two statements.
Whether or not actions are understandable has nothing to do with whether or not they are moral.
Premise: I want to destroy Innistrad via Eldrazi.
Premise: Emrakul is an Eldrazi.
Premise: Emrakul destroys whatever plane she is on.
Conclusion: I get what I want if I bring Emrakul to Innistrad.
That is how logic works, kid, its actually pretty simple.
Logic is about how you get what you want. There are not "logical" things to want. What a person should want is the domain of ethics, a completely different field of philosophy. Obviously most ethical systems would say that wanting to kill everyone on Innistrad is evil but its clearly a logical thing for her to do. If Nahiri were acting illogically she'd try to destroy Innistrad by opening an ice cream parlor on Ravnica.
When you say logical do you maybe mean "fair" or "measured" or "proportional" or "calm"? Because again those are different things than logic and reason.
A lot of what she reasoned herself in her story is not relate able at all to me
Are there any stories worth reading in which a person exact precisely proportional revenge on their enemies? The point of every revenge story ever written is that innocent people get hurt while the protagonist seeks vengeance. Nahiri's story follows The Count of Monte Cristo almost perfectly which is about the same human drives to inflict pain on those who hurt you regardless of the consequences.
When you say logical do you maybe mean "fair" or "measured" or "proportional" or "calm"? Because again those are different things than logic and reason.
If we're going to shoot for "fair", most retributive schools of justice call for a punishment commensurate to the crime; Sorin condemned Zendikar to destruction and inflicted its loss upon Nahiri. It's only fair that he suffers the same. Innistrad's denizens, in this case, are merely collateral damage.
She's going nuts over Sorin "damaging" her world, yet completely ignoring the fact that she was part of the Eldrazi getting planted on Zendikar.
Well, there's the fact that she was led to believe that was the only way to deal with the Eldrazi (Ugin kinda omitted the fact they could be killed, and she probably still doesn't know the truth) so they wouldn't end up omnomnoming the multiverse. And the fact that Sorin and Ugin had promised they'd be there in case anything went wrong, a promise both broke.
Trying to do the right thing and then getting screwed over kinda sucks.
But the only reason the alarm had to be used in the firt place was because Nahiri neglected her job as well. By sleeping for most of those 5000 years she allowed:
-the people of Zendikar to worship the Titans;
-the end of her lithomancy followers, who were tasked with keeping the hedrons from deteriorating;
-the Eldrazi to test their bounds unchecked, to the point of creating the vampires;
-the vampires to further mess with the prison, to the point of eldrazi spawn to appear.
She's going nuts over Sorin "damaging" her world, yet completely ignoring the fact that she was part of the Eldrazi getting planted on Zendikar.
Well, there's the fact that she was led to believe that was the only way to deal with the Eldrazi (Ugin kinda omitted the fact they could be killed, and she probably still doesn't know the truth) so they wouldn't end up omnomnoming the multiverse. And the fact that Sorin and Ugin had promised they'd be there in case anything went wrong, a promise both broke.
Trying to do the right thing and then getting screwed over kinda sucks.
But the only reason the alarm had to be used in the firt place was because Nahiri neglected her job as well. By sleeping for most of those 5000 years she allowed:
-the people of Zendikar to worship the Titans;
-the end of her lithomancy followers, who were tasked with keeping the hedrons from deteriorating;
-the Eldrazi to test their bounds unchecked, to the point of creating the vampires;
-the vampires to further mess with the prison, to the point of eldrazi spawn to appear.
Which really tells you how massively Sorin and Ugin screwed her. They gave her all of the actual responsibilities.
I'd say considering the passion that is going on here, they managed to do quite well with Nahiri. Like I said, she's more akin to Urza. Whenever Urza went to make the Metathran, he had to steal a dragon egg. The dragon that had the egg could only have one child in a life time, always female, and reproduced asexually. So he had a team of his students from Tolarian Academy steal the egg. The dragon caught the one student and kept in an illusion of reliving death over and over, meanwhile she confronted Urza. She then fried Urza with dragonfire and then he regenerated and quickly explained what he had done and why he took it. She wanted justice, so he offered her his student for a time which she punished him for one month and then released him. Meanwhile, the real mastermind was Urza.
Urza is after the big picture, irregardless of the small things in the multiverse. He was the person who initiated things, and caused a lot of harm. The Bloodlines Project created a lot of havoc, but also created Hannah and Gerard. The temporal experiments created the temporal rifts, but also gave us Karn as the start of the Legacy.
Her entire plan was to have Sorin sacrifice himself to save Innistraad, meanwhile he was willing to abandon it. He sees things, similar to Ugin, on a much larger intergalactic level. Sorin is about himself, Ugin is about the big balance. Nahiri was for others and Zendikar, now it's about the past and she's given way to madness in the oldwalker style similar to what happened to Urza. This doesn't make her totally evil, but similar to Taysir and friends there will probably be a redemption moment for her. Similar to Urza he found some peace in what he was able to build what wasn't evil.
Sorin can return. Avacyn, in a way, can as the Vault of the Archangel still exists.
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Life is a beautiful engineer, yet a brutal scientist.
Are we sure Nahiri's insanity is natural? The last time she showed up before this, there were some implications that she'd been manipulated by the Eldrazi. I'm honestly not convinced that this wasn't a long game by Emrakul.
See all URs she is featured in this block.
Nahiri was the one to drag Emrakul to Innistrad. There's no logical explanation for Emrakul to have "corrupted" her when she was the one to initiate her plan, and only even came in vicinity of Emrakul very recently.
I can't understand those Nahiri sympathisants who manage to "explain" her actions as if they are logical or understandable. No they are not!
Yes she was wronged, no that does not give her the right, moral or otherwise, to do what she did.
There is no connection between these two statements.
Whether or not actions are understandable has nothing to do with whether or not they are moral.
Premise: I want to destroy Innistrad via Eldrazi.
Premise: Emrakul is an Eldrazi.
Premise: Emrakul destroys whatever plane she is on.
Conclusion: I get what I want if I bring Emrakul to Innistrad.
That is how logic works, kid, its actually pretty simple.
Logic is about how you get what you want. There are not "logical" things to want. What a person should want is the domain of ethics, a completely different field of philosophy. Obviously most ethical systems would say that wanting to kill everyone on Innistrad is evil but its clearly a logical thing for her to do. If Nahiri were acting illogically she'd try to destroy Innistrad by opening an ice cream parlor on Ravnica.
When you say logical do you maybe mean "fair" or "measured" or "proportional" or "calm"? Because again those are different things than logic and reason.
A lot of what she reasoned herself in her story is not relate able at all to me
Are there any stories worth reading in which a person exact precisely proportional revenge on their enemies? The point of every revenge story ever written is that innocent people get hurt while the protagonist seeks vengeance. Nahiri's story follows The Count of Monte Cristo almost perfectly which is about the same human drives to inflict pain on those who hurt you regardless of the consequences.
- That is arguably still not logical, since there are several means in which she could drag Sorin in without resorting to a big, dramatic display. She's acting recklessly.
- That is ultimately a somewhat dishonest argument. The semantics don't really matter when her actions are both reckless and immoral.
- As explained before, if you think she is somehow justified in her actions, then by that same token she's also in the wrong, since what she is doing is several orders of magnitude worse than what Sorin did to her.
- That is arguably still not logical, since there are several means in which she could drag Sorin in without resorting to a big, dramatic display. She's acting recklessly.
I have no idea what portion of the post you're responding to. But regardless if you believe that "big dramatic displays" are inherently illogical you've misunderstood logic as badly as most Star Trek writers.
- As explained before, if you think she is somehow justified in her actions, then by that same token she's also in the wrong, since what she is doing is several orders of magnitude worse than what Sorin did to her.
Okay now I'm fairly certain you didn't even read the post.
There's two things puzzling me about the posts here.
1. People trying to justify Nahiri as "misunderstood" or something
2. People making her out to be literally the Hitler of the Multiverse (because Ob and Bolas are clearly the only two in that running)
In regards to the OP:
-What do you think Nahiri's motives are?
If they are anything but "an eye for an eye" revenge, then either I'm completely stupid or Wizards has ran out of ***** to give about story.
-How much of a plan to deal with Emrakul, if any, do you think she had?
Considering she gave up on Zendikar (ie her entire purpose and what she dedicated her life to pre-imprisonment), she does not have a plan. Perhaps a piece of a plan, but by no means a plan. I'd say maybe a few thoughts on what possibly to do, like maybe luring her to less populated plane or something. But mostly I'd say the only thought she could have given to dealing with Emrakul is justifying luring her there by thinking "Well at least she isn't on Zendikar" and "I'll figure something out after I ruin Sorin's life and beloved plane." Her first priority is revenge, so I think that's the only thing she has a plan for. Anything after that will be figured out later from her POV.
-What bearing do the answers to those questions have on the morality of her actions and your judgment of her as character?
I don't think she's good by any means. She abandoned Zendikar, something she would never have considered earlier, so therefore she has no real care or thought towards anyone or anything else. She has a misguided sense of justice/vengeance consuming her right now, and will not rest until she sees her vendetta through. I do not think there's any justification for her right now. Yes, her home plane was getting ravaged by Eldrazi. Yes, Sorin imprisoned her for a millennia or so. However, her beef is with Sorin (and possibly Ugin depending on how angry she wants to get), not Innistrad. She is willing to destroy an entire plane (and kill thousands or millions of people) just to get back at him. I could she her being somewhat good, just horribly misguided, if she was not using Innistrad as something to smash to piss off Sorin. Things being the way they are though, she is without a doubt bad. And especially considering she's willing to risk destroying a plane and letting many, many people die regardless just to get revenge, she is very much a threat. Menace? That will have to be determined later. She's only been around for a little bit since the Helvault broke, and the only thing she's done is lure Emrakul here and trash Markov Manor. If she continues her rampage, then she's a menace. Also if she fights the Gatewatch for fighting Emrakul and her monstrosities, she's a menace. Right now, she's just a really powerful, really misguided and obsessed threat. A threat who is willing to utilize Eldrazi to meet her ends.
I'm wondering if she'll be puppeteered by Bolas or if she'll end up being shown how much of a ****head she's being when the Gatewatch and/or Ugin reveal that Zendikar is safe (from the Eldrazi). I guess we'll find out, but right now she's just on rampage mode and until her thing with Sorin gets settled she isn't going anywhere in terms of character development.
TL;DR
Nahiri is obsessed with getting revenge on Sorin, so much so that she has abandoned Zendikar and endangered Innistrad just to achieve her goal. Therefore, she is definitely a threat. Anything else will have to wait until she comes back in a newer set or more story stuff is released. Until then, she is only a vengeance-obsessed former oldwalker, and basically nothing more.
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Haven't played anything but EDH and casual for over a year
I think the whole Nahiri-Sorin fiasco raised something that was never really seen in most of MTG's lore history... oldwalkers with a lot of free time.
People keep raising the "thousands of innocents lives lost" argument, but Nahiri (and Sorin) were oldwalkers. Ageless beings that have seen plenty of thousands of lives lost, innocent or not, probably a lot more than once. To the "mortal" us (and the current planeswalkers), we would always see "causing thousands of innocent lives lost" as an act of evil for all our lives, but to them, that is no longer a valid viewpoint. Give Gideon the same agelessness and when he fails to save some groups of thousands over the next few millennia, watch his apathy grow slowly. You can't save everything in the multiverse (A stark contrast to the Gatewatch now, but they just got started), so when the time calls, exactly what will be your priorities?
If Ulamog attacked Zendikar, Kozilek attacked Ravnica and Emrakul attacked Regatha at the same time, would the Gatewatch actually co-ordinate their movements as well? We have a fantastic timing of Emrakul appearing after Ulamog and Kozilek were dealt with and that is not something that happens in reality all the time (but then again MTG is unrealistic, so the Gatewatch probably could co-ordinate and orchestrate their enemies to attack in waves, Bolas probably drew a late queue number...)
I hate to say this, but there is not "right" or "wrong" in saying Nahiri is "evil". It's fair to say Nahiri is "evil" from the perspective of a mortal (applying our our "real-world" experience into their world), but it's also fair to say that Nahiri (and Sorin) don't see the act as "evil" (at least, not in the general sense from Sorin, he sees Nahiri as Evil for simply going against him, not for the "real-world" reasons we think she is), but that's because we're applying MTG "real-world" logic (aka what if MTG was real, how would our logics change) into the argument).
It's easy to say "It's impossible for someone to feel they're not evil when they did what Nahiri did", but then again can anyone prove that one's sense of morality would stay intact had the oldwalker status/logic been applied to us in the real world? In fact, if anything, most of the oldwalkers have proven at within MTG, they probably won't see it as "evil".
This is why Liliana feels rather "off" to me, because I've already come to expect oldwalkers to be almost completely unfeeling to others and seeing anything else, including the lives of thousands, as mere statistics unless its their property (hence all the childishness we get from them). Even if Liliana is younger than other oldwalkers, the expectations don't just vanish for her. Karn is the closest thing to a "benevolent" oldwalker (and has the whole lore backing him so he can get away with it). Even since then, I've never really seen Ugin as a "benevolent" character of any sort, his "morality" is ambiguous at best. Like some mentioned, literally the whole Eldrazi sealing thing was 40 years of sculpting and leaving all the responsibilities to Nahiri (and quite a badly thought-out experiment of any sort in the very first place, considering he thinks Eldrazi Titans being missing might cause multi-planar disaster, yet imprisoning them wouldn't?) Ugin might sound "noble" when he told Jace he would prepare accordingly for the repercussions of the deaths of Ulamog and Kozilek, but the future is still an uncertain thing, even for them - if it turns out Ugin couldn't handle it on his own, will he still just fall back and protect Tarkir first (or even more sinister, is Tarkir the only thing he prepared accordingly in the future even)?
Hi there, friend, my name is Xul. I'm quite old and, honest to god, have next to no empathy due to all crazy ***** that happened to me during my lifetime. I fought two wars and saw many people who were close to me die and that made me realize that people do die, that is our nature, and it made me completely emotionless towards others. Crazy, some would say. Funny story, right? Oh, and by the way, I've just butchered your family and fed their remains to my dog. Your house is also gone because I didn't like it, it sucked. By the time you're reading this, I am already going around and shooting your remaining friends. Why, you ask? I feel like you have seriously wronged me in the past and that is enough for me to do these things, but, c'mon, be fair, you can't really call me evil, right? I'm a super old grandpa with no empathy left in me and since I don't see my acts as evil and you can't sympathize with me because we're not equal, my acts are not evil. Have a good day *shoots your cat*
Oh, by the way, none of this doing is evil since I don't see it as evil. You see them as evil, but you are too young, you don't understand me.
If we're going to follow your brilliant logic then why don't we just start handing out Molotov cocktails to the elderly? We should provide them with some rifles as well and combat knifes just in case that their aiming is off. Oh, those who have PTSP should get double the amount of weaponry! Yes, that is a great idea. We can't judge them for using those to kill people because they are old, we can't understand them.
Here's three characters that, by your brilliant logic, are not evil because they are super old: Nicol Bolas, Ob Nixilis and Yawgmoth!!! Dude, they are super old immortals, they no longer feel anything for mortals like us so their actions are not evil. We can say that Yawgmoth's action are evil, but we're silly mortals so his actions aren't evil at all. Not in his eyes and that is all that matters.
There's a lot of flaws if you do a direct comparison while ignoring the fundamental differences between fantasy and real life. You're using the same exaggerations used in fantasy for real life, but don't take into account the differences within. Firstly, oldwalkers are ageless and don't slow down with age. Secondly, this particular insanity usually only kicks in after seeing several generations of one's species kick the bucket naturally - which is why it cannot be applied in real life - I don't think we had someone see his great-grandchildren dying of old age along with his neighbour's great-grandchildren as well to gain such apathy.
You know the trope "Screw politeness, I'm an elder?" Technically that is the toned-down version for real life but Magic has to oomph it up to eleven with all these Eldrazi genocides because well, honestly, we'll all killing thousands of creatures every time we're playing a game of Magic as well - we are as evil as Nahiri is, a Grand Prix is nothing but full of Nahiris. "It's just a game?" Bingo. That's what oldwalkers effectively see planes and their inhabitants as. They prioritize their own planes the same way we prioritize our own decks over others. Well, most of us would still be nice if we lost to someone else, but since it's a fictional story, law of drama demands we all become angry and do the same back, otherwise there will be no conflict. If you want a more literal example, how about someone ripping your deck apart quite literally instead...
Well, I guess I shouldn't have raised "real-world" partially as an analogy, if one is going to take everything at face-value and compare it in its entirely.
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If Nahiri just flips around after what happened in SOI I'll be disappointed. She really doesn't seem likely to just change that way. And I don't think she views herself as evil, but I think that her actions generally are. How strongly they'll continue after this plane is hard to say, but I'd hazard a guess that it's pretty likely to continue given how her story here seems to end.
Also, how did she even know where Emrakul was, and how did she get him to infect Avacyn & the angels? Was her madness so strong that Emrakul drifted towards her, or was it because of bad writing?
Cryptolith. One, Nahiri has the know how to attract Emrakul since they did it with Zendikar. Two, a combination of Cryptoliths and Emrakul screwed Avacyn and the angels go mad.
Well, there's the fact that she was led to believe that was the only way to deal with the Eldrazi (Ugin kinda omitted the fact they could be killed, and she probably still doesn't know the truth) so they wouldn't end up omnomnoming the multiverse. And the fact that Sorin and Ugin had promised they'd be there in case anything went wrong, a promise both broke.
Trying to do the right thing and then getting screwed over kinda sucks.
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That said, it's possible that the Eldrazi are something like antibodies in the Blind Eternities, erasing corrupt or dying planes and helping to heal the Multiverse. Which is why Bolas might have released them... If they heal the mending then he gets his power back.
If that's true, then Ugin was right all along, and they shouldn't be destroyed, lest something worse happen.
The entire arc of this block is the epitome of eye for an eye. Now, unleashing an Eldrazi titan on a plan is a pretty harsh way to exact revenge, but for all Nahiri knows Zendikar died because of Sorin. Nahiri has her reasons, solid ones. Vilify Nahiri for her actions, understand where she's coming from, but also vilify Sorin for using someone's entire WORLD like he did.
Also, because of the intense history behind her actions on Innistrad, there's no way she'd try this on another plane. I highly highly doubt she's not a permanent villain or "menace" to the multiverse. She's just a temporary anti-villain for the block.
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This is all kind of sad, too, because prior to this, in her first story, she was certainly an altruistic character and I was rooting for her in her fight against Sorin(who sorely deserves an ass whooping) but her turn to wrecking Innistrad in the story feels like a heel face turn that makes little sense.
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Two wrongs don't make a right. Sorin is definitely an immense douche at best, but that will never clean up Nahiri's infliction of horror on bystanders who had nothing to do with it.
I can't understand those Nahiri sympathisants who manage to "explain" her actions as if they are logical or understandable. No they are not!
Yes she was wronged, no that does not give her the right, moral or otherwise, to do what she did. A lot of what she reasoned herself in her story is not relate able at all to me, honestly she appears like a typical manga/anime villain. "You wronged me once, now I'm gonna destroy everything you hold dear!" ....uuuuh what? Biyatch, you crazy!
Please Wizards, no redemption arc or whatever nonsense for Nahiri. Make her the villain for another set for whatever bogus reason again, let the Gatewatch destroy her and then find another female Kor, give her Nahiris haircut and make her a planeswalker somehow and voila, her fanbase should be mollified.
Anyway, I think it's extremely unlikely Nahiri will be redeemed, but she may end up doing something to become a more viable long term player than "Was in prison, then went mad." I'm wondering if she'll end up fusing or corrupted by the Eldrazi and become their "new" form post-Emrakul's defeat similar to how Kerrigan replaced the Overmind.
Especially since Phyrexia didn't corrupt any of the 'Walkers last time around. There's a large opening for "Insane and insanely powerful character spreads plagues to planes out of a misguided sense of revenge."
That goes double it WoTC wants to keep the possibility of more Eldrazi in the future. They'll need to change somehow, and having them fuse with Nahiri and become something less cosmic horror and more biological-plague horror seems like the only way besides adding more Titans.
There is no connection between these two statements.
Whether or not actions are understandable has nothing to do with whether or not they are moral.
Nahiri's actions are 100% logical.
Premise: I want to destroy Innistrad via Eldrazi.
Premise: Emrakul is an Eldrazi.
Premise: Emrakul destroys whatever plane she is on.
Conclusion: I get what I want if I bring Emrakul to Innistrad.
That is how logic works, kid, its actually pretty simple.
Logic is about how you get what you want. There are not "logical" things to want. What a person should want is the domain of ethics, a completely different field of philosophy. Obviously most ethical systems would say that wanting to kill everyone on Innistrad is evil but its clearly a logical thing for her to do. If Nahiri were acting illogically she'd try to destroy Innistrad by opening an ice cream parlor on Ravnica.
When you say logical do you maybe mean "fair" or "measured" or "proportional" or "calm"? Because again those are different things than logic and reason.
Are there any stories worth reading in which a person exact precisely proportional revenge on their enemies? The point of every revenge story ever written is that innocent people get hurt while the protagonist seeks vengeance. Nahiri's story follows The Count of Monte Cristo almost perfectly which is about the same human drives to inflict pain on those who hurt you regardless of the consequences.
If we're going to shoot for "fair", most retributive schools of justice call for a punishment commensurate to the crime; Sorin condemned Zendikar to destruction and inflicted its loss upon Nahiri. It's only fair that he suffers the same. Innistrad's denizens, in this case, are merely collateral damage.
But the only reason the alarm had to be used in the firt place was because Nahiri neglected her job as well. By sleeping for most of those 5000 years she allowed:
-the people of Zendikar to worship the Titans;
-the end of her lithomancy followers, who were tasked with keeping the hedrons from deteriorating;
-the Eldrazi to test their bounds unchecked, to the point of creating the vampires;
-the vampires to further mess with the prison, to the point of eldrazi spawn to appear.
Which really tells you how massively Sorin and Ugin screwed her. They gave her all of the actual responsibilities.
Urza is after the big picture, irregardless of the small things in the multiverse. He was the person who initiated things, and caused a lot of harm. The Bloodlines Project created a lot of havoc, but also created Hannah and Gerard. The temporal experiments created the temporal rifts, but also gave us Karn as the start of the Legacy.
Her entire plan was to have Sorin sacrifice himself to save Innistraad, meanwhile he was willing to abandon it. He sees things, similar to Ugin, on a much larger intergalactic level. Sorin is about himself, Ugin is about the big balance. Nahiri was for others and Zendikar, now it's about the past and she's given way to madness in the oldwalker style similar to what happened to Urza. This doesn't make her totally evil, but similar to Taysir and friends there will probably be a redemption moment for her. Similar to Urza he found some peace in what he was able to build what wasn't evil.
Sorin can return. Avacyn, in a way, can as the Vault of the Archangel still exists.
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Nahiri was the one to drag Emrakul to Innistrad. There's no logical explanation for Emrakul to have "corrupted" her when she was the one to initiate her plan, and only even came in vicinity of Emrakul very recently.
- That is arguably still not logical, since there are several means in which she could drag Sorin in without resorting to a big, dramatic display. She's acting recklessly.
- That is ultimately a somewhat dishonest argument. The semantics don't really matter when her actions are both reckless and immoral.
- As explained before, if you think she is somehow justified in her actions, then by that same token she's also in the wrong, since what she is doing is several orders of magnitude worse than what Sorin did to her.
I have no idea what portion of the post you're responding to. But regardless if you believe that "big dramatic displays" are inherently illogical you've misunderstood logic as badly as most Star Trek writers.
I still have no idea what portion of the post you're responding to.
Okay now I'm fairly certain you didn't even read the post.
1. People trying to justify Nahiri as "misunderstood" or something
2. People making her out to be literally the Hitler of the Multiverse (because Ob and Bolas are clearly the only two in that running)
In regards to the OP:
-What do you think Nahiri's motives are?
If they are anything but "an eye for an eye" revenge, then either I'm completely stupid or Wizards has ran out of ***** to give about story.
-How much of a plan to deal with Emrakul, if any, do you think she had?
Considering she gave up on Zendikar (ie her entire purpose and what she dedicated her life to pre-imprisonment), she does not have a plan. Perhaps a piece of a plan, but by no means a plan. I'd say maybe a few thoughts on what possibly to do, like maybe luring her to less populated plane or something. But mostly I'd say the only thought she could have given to dealing with Emrakul is justifying luring her there by thinking "Well at least she isn't on Zendikar" and "I'll figure something out after I ruin Sorin's life and beloved plane." Her first priority is revenge, so I think that's the only thing she has a plan for. Anything after that will be figured out later from her POV.
-What bearing do the answers to those questions have on the morality of her actions and your judgment of her as character?
I don't think she's good by any means. She abandoned Zendikar, something she would never have considered earlier, so therefore she has no real care or thought towards anyone or anything else. She has a misguided sense of justice/vengeance consuming her right now, and will not rest until she sees her vendetta through. I do not think there's any justification for her right now. Yes, her home plane was getting ravaged by Eldrazi. Yes, Sorin imprisoned her for a millennia or so. However, her beef is with Sorin (and possibly Ugin depending on how angry she wants to get), not Innistrad. She is willing to destroy an entire plane (and kill thousands or millions of people) just to get back at him. I could she her being somewhat good, just horribly misguided, if she was not using Innistrad as something to smash to piss off Sorin. Things being the way they are though, she is without a doubt bad. And especially considering she's willing to risk destroying a plane and letting many, many people die regardless just to get revenge, she is very much a threat. Menace? That will have to be determined later. She's only been around for a little bit since the Helvault broke, and the only thing she's done is lure Emrakul here and trash Markov Manor. If she continues her rampage, then she's a menace. Also if she fights the Gatewatch for fighting Emrakul and her monstrosities, she's a menace. Right now, she's just a really powerful, really misguided and obsessed threat. A threat who is willing to utilize Eldrazi to meet her ends.
I'm wondering if she'll be puppeteered by Bolas or if she'll end up being shown how much of a ****head she's being when the Gatewatch and/or Ugin reveal that Zendikar is safe (from the Eldrazi). I guess we'll find out, but right now she's just on rampage mode and until her thing with Sorin gets settled she isn't going anywhere in terms of character development.
TL;DR
Nahiri is obsessed with getting revenge on Sorin, so much so that she has abandoned Zendikar and endangered Innistrad just to achieve her goal. Therefore, she is definitely a threat. Anything else will have to wait until she comes back in a newer set or more story stuff is released. Until then, she is only a vengeance-obsessed former oldwalker, and basically nothing more.
People keep raising the "thousands of innocents lives lost" argument, but Nahiri (and Sorin) were oldwalkers. Ageless beings that have seen plenty of thousands of lives lost, innocent or not, probably a lot more than once. To the "mortal" us (and the current planeswalkers), we would always see "causing thousands of innocent lives lost" as an act of evil for all our lives, but to them, that is no longer a valid viewpoint. Give Gideon the same agelessness and when he fails to save some groups of thousands over the next few millennia, watch his apathy grow slowly. You can't save everything in the multiverse (A stark contrast to the Gatewatch now, but they just got started), so when the time calls, exactly what will be your priorities?
If Ulamog attacked Zendikar, Kozilek attacked Ravnica and Emrakul attacked Regatha at the same time, would the Gatewatch actually co-ordinate their movements as well? We have a fantastic timing of Emrakul appearing after Ulamog and Kozilek were dealt with and that is not something that happens in reality all the time (but then again MTG is unrealistic, so the Gatewatch probably could co-ordinate and orchestrate their enemies to attack in waves, Bolas probably drew a late queue number...)
I hate to say this, but there is not "right" or "wrong" in saying Nahiri is "evil". It's fair to say Nahiri is "evil" from the perspective of a mortal (applying our our "real-world" experience into their world), but it's also fair to say that Nahiri (and Sorin) don't see the act as "evil" (at least, not in the general sense from Sorin, he sees Nahiri as Evil for simply going against him, not for the "real-world" reasons we think she is), but that's because we're applying MTG "real-world" logic (aka what if MTG was real, how would our logics change) into the argument).
It's easy to say "It's impossible for someone to feel they're not evil when they did what Nahiri did", but then again can anyone prove that one's sense of morality would stay intact had the oldwalker status/logic been applied to us in the real world? In fact, if anything, most of the oldwalkers have proven at within MTG, they probably won't see it as "evil".
This is why Liliana feels rather "off" to me, because I've already come to expect oldwalkers to be almost completely unfeeling to others and seeing anything else, including the lives of thousands, as mere statistics unless its their property (hence all the childishness we get from them). Even if Liliana is younger than other oldwalkers, the expectations don't just vanish for her. Karn is the closest thing to a "benevolent" oldwalker (and has the whole lore backing him so he can get away with it). Even since then, I've never really seen Ugin as a "benevolent" character of any sort, his "morality" is ambiguous at best. Like some mentioned, literally the whole Eldrazi sealing thing was 40 years of sculpting and leaving all the responsibilities to Nahiri (and quite a badly thought-out experiment of any sort in the very first place, considering he thinks Eldrazi Titans being missing might cause multi-planar disaster, yet imprisoning them wouldn't?) Ugin might sound "noble" when he told Jace he would prepare accordingly for the repercussions of the deaths of Ulamog and Kozilek, but the future is still an uncertain thing, even for them - if it turns out Ugin couldn't handle it on his own, will he still just fall back and protect Tarkir first (or even more sinister, is Tarkir the only thing he prepared accordingly in the future even)?
There's a lot of flaws if you do a direct comparison while ignoring the fundamental differences between fantasy and real life. You're using the same exaggerations used in fantasy for real life, but don't take into account the differences within. Firstly, oldwalkers are ageless and don't slow down with age. Secondly, this particular insanity usually only kicks in after seeing several generations of one's species kick the bucket naturally - which is why it cannot be applied in real life - I don't think we had someone see his great-grandchildren dying of old age along with his neighbour's great-grandchildren as well to gain such apathy.
You know the trope "Screw politeness, I'm an elder?" Technically that is the toned-down version for real life but Magic has to oomph it up to eleven with all these Eldrazi genocides because well, honestly, we'll all killing thousands of creatures every time we're playing a game of Magic as well - we are as evil as Nahiri is, a Grand Prix is nothing but full of Nahiris. "It's just a game?" Bingo. That's what oldwalkers effectively see planes and their inhabitants as. They prioritize their own planes the same way we prioritize our own decks over others. Well, most of us would still be nice if we lost to someone else, but since it's a fictional story, law of drama demands we all become angry and do the same back, otherwise there will be no conflict. If you want a more literal example, how about someone ripping your deck apart quite literally instead...
Well, I guess I shouldn't have raised "real-world" partially as an analogy, if one is going to take everything at face-value and compare it in its entirely.