... Yes. I am conflating "World Ending" with "Complete and total upheaval in the world that dramatically changes the way it functions and is the conclusion of a plane-wide conflict."
Not to mention that those changes will almost always lead to the destruction of civilization, and the deaths of the majority, if not all of the plane's population. The world isn't literally ending, but for all practical purposes, it is.
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"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
Core Sets didn't have much spectacle (if at all) and we all know the direction that they went...
On the other hand the third sets in a block had much of the highest spectacle with sudden extreme changes to the plane: Rise of the Eldrazi, Avacyn Restored and Dragons of Tarkir. And those are gone as well.
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On the other hand the third sets in a block had much of the highest spectacle with sudden extreme changes to the plane: Rise of the Eldrazi, Avacyn Restored and Dragons of Tarkir. And those are gone as well.
In the new block setup, the second set is gone, not the third.
Core Sets didn't have much spectacle (if at all) and we all know the direction that they went...
On the other hand the third sets in a block had much of the highest spectacle with sudden extreme changes to the plane: Rise of the Eldrazi, Avacyn Restored and Dragons of Tarkir. And those are gone as well.
Well, those sets happen to be either ones that had their own Limited formats and/or was only played with the second set. Third sets that are traditionally played in Limited (Fifth Dawn, Saviors, Dissension, Future Sight, Eventide, Alara Reborn, Dragon's Maze and Journey into Nyx) scaled lesser on the spectacle scale since they focused more on resolution than simply change and they definitely make up the majority of third sets. The only exception so far is New Phyrexia, but even the entire block was about an ongoing war rather than a simple Eye of Ugin unsealed/Helvault breaking/literal time travel, so it's a slightly less abrupt change.
Also, your linked article mostly refers to R&D. Creative can't just create a problem and leave it there (which ironically is what they did for Rise of the Eldrazi) most of the time, so it means the resolution of a problem which has to be in the 3rd set is now shifted to the 2nd. Traditionally the 2nd sets are used to set up the problem, but it now seems to be shoved between the end of the first set and the start of the second set, since strictly speaking, it's the easiest shift to do (plus the build-up from the waiting time between the two sets helps it function even better).
You are conflating "world ending" with just merely changing who is now running things and how the world now works.
... Yes. I am conflating "World Ending" with "Complete and total upheaval in the world that dramatically changes the way it functions and is the conclusion of a plane-wide conflict."
Then you are doing so incorrectly in an attempt to support your argument. Having, for example, Dragons run things instead of Khans is not the end of the world in Tarkir. End of the world is end of the world, not "well, I guess this new guy is now in charge". The Eldrazi literally killing everyone and destroying the plane is just on a whole different level than the usual squabble for power, and is why I think we're experiencing spectacle creep.
I would even entertain arguments that New Phyrexia is not the end of the world, since you could make an argument that Magic's Borg is a perfectly acceptable culture/form of life, but I'm leaning towards saying that qualifies as the end of that plane since we don't usually find a massive hive-mind to be an acceptable form of life/culture.
... Yes. I am conflating "World Ending" with "Complete and total upheaval in the world that dramatically changes the way it functions and is the conclusion of a plane-wide conflict."
Not to mention that those changes will almost always lead to the destruction of civilization, and the deaths of the majority, if not all of the plane's population. The world isn't literally ending, but for all practical purposes, it is.
That is not happening as often as you guys are arguing, other than the last 2 blocks. He's even got Theros on the list. How would Xenagos successfully staying as the 15th God be the end of civilization on Theros? That block had stakes as small as I've seen in a while, it was just "hey, I'd like to be the 15th God! No, you can't, get out of here."
... Yes. I am conflating "World Ending" with "Complete and total upheaval in the world that dramatically changes the way it functions and is the conclusion of a plane-wide conflict."
Not to mention that those changes will almost always lead to the destruction of civilization, and the deaths of the majority, if not all of the plane's population. The world isn't literally ending, but for all practical purposes, it is.
That is not happening as often as you guys are arguing, other than the last 2 sets. He's even got Theros on the list. How would Xenagos successfully staying as the 15th God be the end of civilization on Theros? That block had stakes as small as I've seen in a while, it was just "hey, I'd like to be the 15th God! No, you can't, get out of here."
Part of what's going on in the perceived spectacle creep is that we've more or less been in the same storyline since Khans of Tarkir. In Khans, the stakes were Ugin. Why was Ugin important, because he is tied directly to the outcome of the Eldrazi sooner or later. It turned out to be sooner because we went right back to Zendikar in the next block and where two of the Titans fell. Now, we've gone back to Innistrad because Jace is trying to find Sorin to wrap up the last Eldrazi. And that plane is going to hell in a hand basket because Nahiri is angry at Sorin for how he handled...wait for it... the Eldrazi. And now whether or not the Eldritch turns out to be Emrakul (which... is probable to say the least), the reason there is a problem in the first place is because of the Eldrazi.
I don't think this is a spectacle creep (although over saturating the plot with unnecessary conflict is a thing to make all conflict white noise); I think Wizards tried to create long running threat in the form of a Lovecraftian Kaiju, they've slowly come to realize that their execution hasn't been all that popular because we're now in essence in Volume 3 of the "Eldrazi Chronicles" and the overall consensus I get from here and around the internet is a resound... eh.
Well, those sets happen to be either ones that had their own Limited formats and/or was only played with the second set. Third sets that are traditionally played in Limited (Fifth Dawn, Saviors, Dissension, Future Sight, Eventide, Alara Reborn, Dragon's Maze and Journey into Nyx) scaled lesser on the spectacle scale since they focused more on resolution than simply change and they definitely make up the majority of third sets. The only exception so far is New Phyrexia, but even the entire block was about an ongoing war rather than a simple Eye of Ugin unsealed/Helvault breaking/literal time travel, so it's a slightly less abrupt change.
Also, your linked article mostly refers to R&D. Creative can't just create a problem and leave it there (which ironically is what they did for Rise of the Eldrazi) most of the time, so it means the resolution of a problem which has to be in the 3rd set is now shifted to the 2nd. Traditionally the 2nd sets are used to set up the problem, but it now seems to be shoved between the end of the first set and the start of the second set, since strictly speaking, it's the easiest shift to do (plus the build-up from the waiting time between the two sets helps it function even better).
Yes, from a story perspective you need the problem in the large set and the solution in the small set. With that a new world needs to be introduced along with the problem the world is currently phasing. That makes me think that they can't rock the boat to much on their first visit. Return sets on the other hand can do much more. But I guess Kaladesh will show how that will look like.
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Drop your knees to the floor
Hands to the sky
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Well, those sets happen to be either ones that had their own Limited formats and/or was only played with the second set. Third sets that are traditionally played in Limited (Fifth Dawn, Saviors, Dissension, Future Sight, Eventide, Alara Reborn, Dragon's Maze and Journey into Nyx) scaled lesser on the spectacle scale since they focused more on resolution than simply change and they definitely make up the majority of third sets. The only exception so far is New Phyrexia, but even the entire block was about an ongoing war rather than a simple Eye of Ugin unsealed/Helvault breaking/literal time travel, so it's a slightly less abrupt change.
Also, your linked article mostly refers to R&D. Creative can't just create a problem and leave it there (which ironically is what they did for Rise of the Eldrazi) most of the time, so it means the resolution of a problem which has to be in the 3rd set is now shifted to the 2nd. Traditionally the 2nd sets are used to set up the problem, but it now seems to be shoved between the end of the first set and the start of the second set, since strictly speaking, it's the easiest shift to do (plus the build-up from the waiting time between the two sets helps it function even better).
Yes, from a story perspective you need the problem in the large set and the solution in the small set. With that a new world needs to be introduced along with the problem the world is currently phasing. That makes me think that they can't rock the boat to much on their first visit. Return sets on the other hand can do much more. But I guess Kaladesh will show how that will look like.
I could be wrong, but based on the set names and what we know from Origins, I'm expecting Kaladesh to be an uprising by a repressed group (in this case, pyromancers and other natural mages) against the ruling class. Its a pretty old story retold hundreds of times, hopefully their version of this tale if thats what it is will be good.
What would be nice to see for a change is a plane or a series of events that poses a threat to the characters, instead of events that pose a threat to the plane they are visiting.
Like... A main character, let's say... Jace... Has to look for a source of information on a way to fix the damage they made by killing the titans and his journey brings him to a plane where mind mages are not just frowned upon, but imprisoned and their mind-magic is inhibited with specific devices.
Supposing he gets captured and a telepathy inhibitor is implanted in his head and for the trauma he lost the ability to planeswalk.
Now he has to get rid of that device (possibily in a safe way) and regain his ability to planeswalk (other than find the person or information he was looking for).
That way you don't have a series of event that threatend the life of billions of people, but just a series of circumstances that threatens 1 important character. Would also slove the problem of having "plot armour" on every member of the league, if they decided to leave permanent marks of the events on that character.
While this would make a nice book or mini series would it make a nice block? Would it be possible to convey 'moments' of this story on cards in a way people could understand? Possibly but it sounds beyond Wizard's abilities. As sad as it is even in in this new age of story telling they have entered story is still second seat to set design so more 'fancy' stories that don't involve large disputes are harder to show on their current medium of cards.
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Not to mention that those changes will almost always lead to the destruction of civilization, and the deaths of the majority, if not all of the plane's population. The world isn't literally ending, but for all practical purposes, it is.
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
On the other hand the third sets in a block had much of the highest spectacle with sudden extreme changes to the plane: Rise of the Eldrazi, Avacyn Restored and Dragons of Tarkir. And those are gone as well.
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
I have no idea where you got that idea from.
They specifically addressed the core set problem and the third set problem: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mm/metamorphosis
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
Well, those sets happen to be either ones that had their own Limited formats and/or was only played with the second set. Third sets that are traditionally played in Limited (Fifth Dawn, Saviors, Dissension, Future Sight, Eventide, Alara Reborn, Dragon's Maze and Journey into Nyx) scaled lesser on the spectacle scale since they focused more on resolution than simply change and they definitely make up the majority of third sets. The only exception so far is New Phyrexia, but even the entire block was about an ongoing war rather than a simple Eye of Ugin unsealed/Helvault breaking/literal time travel, so it's a slightly less abrupt change.
Also, your linked article mostly refers to R&D. Creative can't just create a problem and leave it there (which ironically is what they did for Rise of the Eldrazi) most of the time, so it means the resolution of a problem which has to be in the 3rd set is now shifted to the 2nd. Traditionally the 2nd sets are used to set up the problem, but it now seems to be shoved between the end of the first set and the start of the second set, since strictly speaking, it's the easiest shift to do (plus the build-up from the waiting time between the two sets helps it function even better).
Then you are doing so incorrectly in an attempt to support your argument. Having, for example, Dragons run things instead of Khans is not the end of the world in Tarkir. End of the world is end of the world, not "well, I guess this new guy is now in charge". The Eldrazi literally killing everyone and destroying the plane is just on a whole different level than the usual squabble for power, and is why I think we're experiencing spectacle creep.
I would even entertain arguments that New Phyrexia is not the end of the world, since you could make an argument that Magic's Borg is a perfectly acceptable culture/form of life, but I'm leaning towards saying that qualifies as the end of that plane since we don't usually find a massive hive-mind to be an acceptable form of life/culture.
That is not happening as often as you guys are arguing, other than the last 2 blocks. He's even got Theros on the list. How would Xenagos successfully staying as the 15th God be the end of civilization on Theros? That block had stakes as small as I've seen in a while, it was just "hey, I'd like to be the 15th God! No, you can't, get out of here."
Part of what's going on in the perceived spectacle creep is that we've more or less been in the same storyline since Khans of Tarkir. In Khans, the stakes were Ugin. Why was Ugin important, because he is tied directly to the outcome of the Eldrazi sooner or later. It turned out to be sooner because we went right back to Zendikar in the next block and where two of the Titans fell. Now, we've gone back to Innistrad because Jace is trying to find Sorin to wrap up the last Eldrazi. And that plane is going to hell in a hand basket because Nahiri is angry at Sorin for how he handled...wait for it... the Eldrazi. And now whether or not the Eldritch turns out to be Emrakul (which... is probable to say the least), the reason there is a problem in the first place is because of the Eldrazi.
I don't think this is a spectacle creep (although over saturating the plot with unnecessary conflict is a thing to make all conflict white noise); I think Wizards tried to create long running threat in the form of a Lovecraftian Kaiju, they've slowly come to realize that their execution hasn't been all that popular because we're now in essence in Volume 3 of the "Eldrazi Chronicles" and the overall consensus I get from here and around the internet is a resound... eh.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
Yes, from a story perspective you need the problem in the large set and the solution in the small set. With that a new world needs to be introduced along with the problem the world is currently phasing. That makes me think that they can't rock the boat to much on their first visit. Return sets on the other hand can do much more. But I guess Kaladesh will show how that will look like.
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
I could be wrong, but based on the set names and what we know from Origins, I'm expecting Kaladesh to be an uprising by a repressed group (in this case, pyromancers and other natural mages) against the ruling class. Its a pretty old story retold hundreds of times, hopefully their version of this tale if thats what it is will be good.