So, I was looking at the Shadows Over Innistrad General Discussion thread, some posts about the latest story line event (The Death of Avacyn), and some comments stuck out to me. Namely, some comments about bigger being better, some general comments and questions about levels of conflict, and a few remarks about how the story can't be content unless it's a world-ending catastrophe of some kind.
That got me to thinking about spectacle creep, something we see so often in comics and movies and other forms of media that go on for long periods of time.
For those unaware, spectacle creep is a lot like power creep. The idea being that you present an initial spectacle, and with every successive piece of media (every sequel to a movie, for example) the conflict has to get bigger and flashier, and the events more grandiose. You start by saving a city in the first movie, but doing that again and again is boring. So movie two, you save a country. Movie three, a planet. And so on. For a better explanation, there's a lovely episode of Extra Credits about it.
So, with that in mind, and with the story lines that have taken place recently, do you believe that Magic is experiencing spectacle creep?
I'm not entirely sure it has, personally. I don't know that I could be satisfied with "Visit X Plane on a normal day," especially if it was a return block. To me, at least, the scale has gotten wider, but the characters involved aren't quite so insanely powerful as before, making it sort of weirdly balanced?
Regardless, it seemed an interesting question. So I'm tossing it out to all of you. Let's get discussin'.
I dont think so. Id say BFZ and OGW was the biggest spectacle we've had in a while and SOI probably had the lowest spectacle we've had in quite some time as well. I'd say we're just fine.
BFZ and OGW were definitely more spectacle then SOI... However you can definitely see that SOI was originally developed as the 3rd part of the Return to Zendikar block. I expect Kaladesh to be much more toned down.
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I think the current arc is very high on the spectacle scale, and it needs to come down from this point before long. Otherwise, what next? Superdrazi threatening to devour the Expontialverse? Or maybe we milk the storyline by interspersing Eldrazi blocks with smaller stories, thus sustaining the state of Lovecraftian fear for maximum profit? That's certainly a proven tactic.
Really, though, I think the bigger problem right now is that we've left plausibility stone-dead in the dust behind us, and the high spectacle is only a part of that. Kozilek's physics-distortion field has nothing on the Jacetus League - my suspended disbelief tore out of my hands and crashed into the subbasement.
Core Sets didn't have much spectacle (if at all) and we all know the direction that they went...
Although I wouldn't say we're experiencing spectacle creep... actually if anything the story is like the game itself (with it's early installment of power) - once upon a time we had literally almost-omnipotent planeswalkers and threats that spanned blocks in real-time duration (thanks Yawgmoth) and all you needed was to get any two parties angry enough to have a fight that could have potentially sundered Alara. In fact the overarching fight/planeswalkers were the reasons why so many planar calamities were happening in the first place - Mirrodin's guardian being unattended and fighting it's own battle only to lose and be dismantled, a plane's whose technical Worldsoul isolated the plane from others to preserve itself (Kamigawa) and yet another which did the same except it was through a pact between possibly the 10 most powerful beings on the plane (Ravnica).
Yet, put aside each other, they don't completely escalate all the time. So, I daresay MTG's spectacle is fluctuating rather than creeping up. The main issue is now we can't see the overarching motives behind most of the happenings, especially when the Bolas-behind-everything-plot seems to have been put in the freezer as well, so we can't actually scale the post-Time Spiral to Pre-Time Spiral. Yes, we can say there isn't one, but if there isn't one than it's either a direct spectacle-down (since nothing's building up in the background), or a spectacle-up when they decide every plane's problems is going to be a "Yawgmoth-Level" one... except they didn't utilize enough sets to make to feel that way... even the Eldrazi Titans felt "lesser" than Phyrexia because it was largely resolved in a block, even if we know in concept they could probably at least still go toe-to-toe.
I'm inclined to say no, I think we've gotten a nice variation of spectacle level recently. However I am hoping that we one day get a set about a smaller scale more personal conflict. Sort of the story happen on the plane rather than to the plane. I just think it would make an interesting new avenue for mtg story telling.
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I don't think so. I mean, it'd be nice to have another block (like the original Innistrad) that's a more personal story, but for the most part I think we're at a consistent spectacle level.
Yeah, I wouldn't call it spectacle creep, so much as Wizards usual MO. Big spectacles is largely how they've told stories for a long time, with a few scattered breaks in between.
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"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
I believe that yes, spectacle creep is happening. However, it's not the real problem. Having large-scale conflicts is necessary because all of the modern day protagonists used by Wizards in their stories have vast powers. In the old days, conflicts on about the same scale we're seeing now felt more intense since the characters had to overcome greater relative obstacles. Sure, you had godlike characters such as Urza, but there were also people like Gerrard Capashen, Toshiro Umezawa, or Agrus Kos who weren't even mages, let alone planeswalkers. By occasionally focusing a block's story around a character closer to the layman side, Wizards could craft plots with equal or greater intensity to those seen before without actually raising the stakes at all.
Spectacle creep? I don't know. The very first block dealt with an entire continent slowly disappearing under a glacial shield with the rest of the planet experiencing a massive shift in temperature. Over the following years we have seen and experienced the destruction of entire nations (Argoth) and even planes (Serra's Realm) culminating in an all-out invasion of the almost only setting magic had back then. Then we took a bit of a breather in the following years, but even Mirrodin ended with the entire plane devoid of life (before being retconned) and Kamigawa being involved in a plane-wide war that the mortals were about to lose. Although Ravnica and Lorwyn were relatively tame compared to the previous storylines they were just that, tame compared to those storylines. In a vacuum they stil dealt with massive global changes, whether it's the turnover of an ancient established governing system that ruled almost every inch of the plane or the replacement of the de-facto ruler of the plane and subsequently changing the entire dynamic and metaphysics of the world.
Let's not forget that we had Time Spiral, which was literally the most severe crisis the multiverse as a whole was facing (at least in terms of lore, it wasn't that pronounced in mechanics)
After that we got a relatively stable suite of "spectacles". The conflux, the release of the eldrazi, the desperate survival of humanity without Avacyn, Phyrexia Reborn (Although this was actually pretty massive)
In recent times we even had some (again comparatively) tame plots, like Xenagos testing the gods' authenticity but ultimately failing and Jace solving a lame puzzle whose presence or absence wouldn't have changed the status quo either way. Depending on how you stand on time travel, Tarkir was also a block in which nothing really happened, except from an outsider's meta-perspective.
You could of course make a point about how Magic has too many big world-threatening plots in general (with which I would agree), but I can't really see a creep here, since it always has been part of the lore.
I wondered when Wizards moved from 3-set to 2-set blocks if storytelling would suffer from too many climaxes in too little time. Despite design issues, the 3-set structure mirrored the archetypal 3-act story, so -- from the players' perspective -- any spectacles therein occurred approximately once annually. I think that it was unavoidable that Magic's lore would feel more crowded with the transition to 2-set blocks and the removal of Core Sets as a buffer between larger stories.
I so far love how they've handled Shadows Over Innistrad; the non-planeswalker perspectives in the Story articles and the behind-the-scenes machinations of various characters have been fun to watch and ponder. The buildup invites spectacle and anything less in Eldritch Moon would be disappointing and anticlimactic. It's all in the setup and resolution, both of which were (in my opinion) bland in Battle for Zendikar.
In other words, I'm not concerned with the degree or quantity of spectacles so long as they're engaging, immersive, and well-written.
You could of course make a point about how Magic has too many big world-threatening plots in general (with which I would agree), but I can't really see a creep here, since it always has been part of the lore.
This is my thoughts exactly. It's not spectacle creep, it's just spectacle cruising speed.
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"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
Same as others, spectacle creep isn't how I would look at it. We've very, very consistently had world-shifting events happen. I'm not quite sure how they should approach the story given that my current issues are less with the size and more with the direction, but it's par for the course to have everything change by the end of a block. Return to Ravnica is the only block that's relatively recent that didn't have a huge upheaval.
Also there really should be a "No, but could be brought down" option. I wouldn't mind if the story was relatively laid back now and again. Maybe Kaladesh will be like that but I'm not counting on it.
Same as others, spectacle creep isn't how I would look at it. We've very, very consistently had world-shifting events happen. I'm not quite sure how they should approach the story given that my current issues are less with the size and more with the direction, but it's par for the course to have everything change by the end of a block. Return to Ravnica is the only block that's relatively recent that didn't have a huge upheaval.
Also there really should be a "No, but could be brought down" option. I wouldn't mind if the story was relatively laid back now and again. Maybe Kaladesh will be like that but I'm not counting on it.
That was sort of the idea behind the "No, but it needs to stay about the same level" answer. Just the idea that it shouldn't get any higher, which at least implies the potential to decrease.
Super interesting thoughts all around! Thanks all! And keep it up!
I think we are, but I also think that we are about to get a reset in Kaladesh with a more mundane, pleasantly normal story. Maybe some minor drama with Chandra, but nothing as earth-shattering as Battle for Zendikar, or Emrakul invading Innistrad. We'll probably soon settle down to a new normal to build back up from.
I think we are, but I also think that we are about to get a reset in Kaladesh with a more mundane, pleasantly normal story. Maybe some minor drama with Chandra, but nothing as earth-shattering as Battle for Zendikar, or Emrakul invading Innistrad. We'll probably soon settle down to a new normal to build back up from.
That would be nice. The last four blocks have dealt with world threatening or changing events. It would refreshing to take a step back down.
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"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
Not so sure. 'Aether Revolt' as a title implies Kaladesh at the end could be quite different from Kaladesh at the start. It may not be as tumultuous as Zendikar or Innistrad, but I think it'll still be another story where the whole plane (or at least, the whole culture of the plane) ends up changed in some way. I'd love to see a story where the plane at the end is *exactly* like the plane at the start and just the characters have been affected; leave the backdrop unchanged and tell a story in the foreground. Not every story has to have world-shattering consequences. (To be fair, Ravnica, for all its inter-guild shenanigans, doesn't tend to change very much.)
But then, recent comments imply they realise they'd painted themselves into corners with original Zendikar and Innistrad because they *had* changed so much from their original settings, which was the bit players really liked. Hopefully the experiences of trying to come back to post-ROE Zendikar and post-AVR Innistrad will mean they more readily maintain the status quo of planes a little more in the future.
I think we are in the sense that the main planeswalker characters are being able to do more and more ridiculous things, but they idea that blocks ending with the fate of the plane in the balance is spectacle creep is hilarious, just look back at the storylines guys, every single block for at least the past 10 years has ended with the fate of the plane in the balance, at least to some extent. and probably almost every single block since the start of the game has been the same.
I think part of why we are feeling this is that now we are getting 2 blocks per year instead of just one, so we are getting 2 big climaxes per year instead of just one, so it feels like there is a lot of spectacle, because there is actually more spectacle, but the spectacle "creep" is quantitative, not qualitative
I think we are in the sense that the main planeswalker characters are being able to do more and more ridiculous things, but they idea that blocks ending with the fate of the plane in the balance is spectacle creep is hilarious, just look back at the storylines guys, every single block for at least the past 10 years has ended with the fate of the plane in the balance, at least to some extent. and probably almost every single block since the start of the game has been the same.
I think part of why we are feeling this is that now we are getting 2 blocks per year instead of just one, so we are getting 2 big climaxes per year instead of just one, so it feels like there is a lot of spectacle, because there is actually more spectacle, but the spectacle "creep" is quantitative, not qualitative
If you read through this thread, you'll see that yeah, that's basically what we've been saying.
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"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
I wouldn't think so. If you had asked this during BFZ block I would have absolutely said yes, but SOI is a definite step down from recent years, spectacle-wise.
I think the main reason why there really isn't much spectacle creep is likely because the goals of each block to a new setting is more focused on world building rather than setting a precedent for a "big bad." From here, we may be able to argue that spectacle creep could occur more often in revisiting planes. On Mirrodin, Memnarch's madness to new phyrexia is an increase in spectacle while I'd say that revisiting Ravnica had a more consistent degree of spectacle. I'd probably even argue that Rise of the Eldrazi to Battle for Zendikar/Gatewatch was a decrease in spectacle since it went down one full eldrazi titan involved in the story.
No, we've had "IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD" in almost every block since Invasion. You can't have Spectacle creep when you've been at maximum spectacle for more than a decade.
Yes, definitely. Does every block have to end with a battle for the future of the plane?
Apparently.
Since Invasion:
Blocks that where the world is ending:
Invasion
Onslaught
Mirroden
Kamigawa
Time Spiral
Lorwyn/Shadowmoor (Arguably -- the world explodes in the middle)
Alara
Zendikar
Scars of Mirroden
Innstrad (It ends in a good way with the Cursemute, but still)
Tarkir
BFZ
Shadow over Innstrad
Theros - Kind of, nothing about the plane really seems to change but story wise, it's the end of the world.
Blocks where the world is not ending:
Odyssey
Ravnica
Return to Ravnica
No, we've had "IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD" in almost every block since Invasion. You can't have Spectacle creep when you've been at maximum spectacle for more than a decade.
Yes, definitely. Does every block have to end with a battle for the future of the plane?
Apparently.
Since Invasion:
Blocks that where the world is ending:
Invasion
Onslaught
Mirroden
Kamigawa
Time Spiral
Lorwyn/Shadowmoor (Arguably -- the world explodes in the middle)
Alara
Zendikar
Scars of Mirroden
Innstrad (It ends in a good way with the Cursemute, but still)
Tarkir
BFZ
Shadow over Innstrad
Theros - Kind of, nothing about the plane really seems to change but story wise, it's the end of the world.
Blocks where the world is not ending:
Odyssey
Ravnica
Return to Ravnica
You are conflating "world ending" with just merely changing who is now running things and how the world now works. If Emrakul really is the threat for this block, then that'll be two blocks in a row where we actually had the end of the world as a possibility to fight against, as in everything is destroyed, everyone is dead, world is now uninhabitable. Last time we had anything close to that was New Phyrexia. Now that I think about it, I think I'll count the compleation of an entire plane as the end of that world, so there's that block too.
You are conflating "world ending" with just merely changing who is now running things and how the world now works.
... Yes. I am conflating "World Ending" with "Complete and total upheaval in the world that dramatically changes the way it functions and is the conclusion of a plane-wide conflict."
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That got me to thinking about spectacle creep, something we see so often in comics and movies and other forms of media that go on for long periods of time.
For those unaware, spectacle creep is a lot like power creep. The idea being that you present an initial spectacle, and with every successive piece of media (every sequel to a movie, for example) the conflict has to get bigger and flashier, and the events more grandiose. You start by saving a city in the first movie, but doing that again and again is boring. So movie two, you save a country. Movie three, a planet. And so on. For a better explanation, there's a lovely episode of Extra Credits about it.
So, with that in mind, and with the story lines that have taken place recently, do you believe that Magic is experiencing spectacle creep?
I'm not entirely sure it has, personally. I don't know that I could be satisfied with "Visit X Plane on a normal day," especially if it was a return block. To me, at least, the scale has gotten wider, but the characters involved aren't quite so insanely powerful as before, making it sort of weirdly balanced?
Regardless, it seemed an interesting question. So I'm tossing it out to all of you. Let's get discussin'.
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
Really, though, I think the bigger problem right now is that we've left plausibility stone-dead in the dust behind us, and the high spectacle is only a part of that. Kozilek's physics-distortion field has nothing on the Jacetus League - my suspended disbelief tore out of my hands and crashed into the subbasement.
Although I wouldn't say we're experiencing spectacle creep... actually if anything the story is like the game itself (with it's early installment of power) - once upon a time we had literally almost-omnipotent planeswalkers and threats that spanned blocks in real-time duration (thanks Yawgmoth) and all you needed was to get any two parties angry enough to have a fight that could have potentially sundered Alara. In fact the overarching fight/planeswalkers were the reasons why so many planar calamities were happening in the first place - Mirrodin's guardian being unattended and fighting it's own battle only to lose and be dismantled, a plane's whose technical Worldsoul isolated the plane from others to preserve itself (Kamigawa) and yet another which did the same except it was through a pact between possibly the 10 most powerful beings on the plane (Ravnica).
Yet, put aside each other, they don't completely escalate all the time. So, I daresay MTG's spectacle is fluctuating rather than creeping up. The main issue is now we can't see the overarching motives behind most of the happenings, especially when the Bolas-behind-everything-plot seems to have been put in the freezer as well, so we can't actually scale the post-Time Spiral to Pre-Time Spiral. Yes, we can say there isn't one, but if there isn't one than it's either a direct spectacle-down (since nothing's building up in the background), or a spectacle-up when they decide every plane's problems is going to be a "Yawgmoth-Level" one... except they didn't utilize enough sets to make to feel that way... even the Eldrazi Titans felt "lesser" than Phyrexia because it was largely resolved in a block, even if we know in concept they could probably at least still go toe-to-toe.
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
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"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
Let's not forget that we had Time Spiral, which was literally the most severe crisis the multiverse as a whole was facing (at least in terms of lore, it wasn't that pronounced in mechanics)
After that we got a relatively stable suite of "spectacles". The conflux, the release of the eldrazi, the desperate survival of humanity without Avacyn, Phyrexia Reborn (Although this was actually pretty massive)
In recent times we even had some (again comparatively) tame plots, like Xenagos testing the gods' authenticity but ultimately failing and Jace solving a lame puzzle whose presence or absence wouldn't have changed the status quo either way. Depending on how you stand on time travel, Tarkir was also a block in which nothing really happened, except from an outsider's meta-perspective.
You could of course make a point about how Magic has too many big world-threatening plots in general (with which I would agree), but I can't really see a creep here, since it always has been part of the lore.
I so far love how they've handled Shadows Over Innistrad; the non-planeswalker perspectives in the Story articles and the behind-the-scenes machinations of various characters have been fun to watch and ponder. The buildup invites spectacle and anything less in Eldritch Moon would be disappointing and anticlimactic. It's all in the setup and resolution, both of which were (in my opinion) bland in Battle for Zendikar.
In other words, I'm not concerned with the degree or quantity of spectacles so long as they're engaging, immersive, and well-written.
This is my thoughts exactly. It's not spectacle creep, it's just spectacle cruising speed.
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
Also there really should be a "No, but could be brought down" option. I wouldn't mind if the story was relatively laid back now and again. Maybe Kaladesh will be like that but I'm not counting on it.
That was sort of the idea behind the "No, but it needs to stay about the same level" answer. Just the idea that it shouldn't get any higher, which at least implies the potential to decrease.
Super interesting thoughts all around! Thanks all! And keep it up!
That would be nice. The last four blocks have dealt with world threatening or changing events. It would refreshing to take a step back down.
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
But then, recent comments imply they realise they'd painted themselves into corners with original Zendikar and Innistrad because they *had* changed so much from their original settings, which was the bit players really liked. Hopefully the experiences of trying to come back to post-ROE Zendikar and post-AVR Innistrad will mean they more readily maintain the status quo of planes a little more in the future.
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
I think part of why we are feeling this is that now we are getting 2 blocks per year instead of just one, so we are getting 2 big climaxes per year instead of just one, so it feels like there is a lot of spectacle, because there is actually more spectacle, but the spectacle "creep" is quantitative, not qualitative
If you read through this thread, you'll see that yeah, that's basically what we've been saying.
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
Apparently.
Since Invasion:
Blocks that where the world is ending:
Invasion
Onslaught
Mirroden
Kamigawa
Time Spiral
Lorwyn/Shadowmoor (Arguably -- the world explodes in the middle)
Alara
Zendikar
Scars of Mirroden
Innstrad (It ends in a good way with the Cursemute, but still)
Tarkir
BFZ
Shadow over Innstrad
Theros - Kind of, nothing about the plane really seems to change but story wise, it's the end of the world.
Blocks where the world is not ending:
Odyssey
Ravnica
Return to Ravnica
You are conflating "world ending" with just merely changing who is now running things and how the world now works. If Emrakul really is the threat for this block, then that'll be two blocks in a row where we actually had the end of the world as a possibility to fight against, as in everything is destroyed, everyone is dead, world is now uninhabitable. Last time we had anything close to that was New Phyrexia. Now that I think about it, I think I'll count the compleation of an entire plane as the end of that world, so there's that block too.
... Yes. I am conflating "World Ending" with "Complete and total upheaval in the world that dramatically changes the way it functions and is the conclusion of a plane-wide conflict."