Nahiri deserves to die for messing up the most interesting plane in mtg. May she be turned to stone slowly for the pain she wrought.
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Not sure if this has been discussed here very often, but when people pointed out to Maro that Nahiri was acting very mono-red and not red/white at all, he said we would need to wait for the full story, and that she believes she is also acting for the greater good (while at the same time satisfying her angry desire for revenge against Sorin)
From there, a lot of people have begun to theorize that Nahiri is not luring Emrakul to Innistrad to destroy the plane, but rather to trap Emrakul in the silver moon. (Eldritch Moon) That may obviously have very bad consequences for Sorin and/or the people who live in Innistrad, maybe the creatures of Innistrad will be insane forever, and/or maybe Sorin will be forced to take over Nahiri's duty of staying in Innistrad and watching over Emrakul.
Not sure if this has been discussed here very often, but when people pointed out to Maro that Nahiri was acting very mono-red and not red/white at all, he said we would need to wait for the full story, and that she believes she is also acting for the greater good (while at the same time satisfying her angry desire for revenge against Sorin)
From there, a lot of people have begun to theorize that Nahiri is not luring Emrakul to Innistrad to destroy the plane, but rather to trap Emrakul in the silver moon. (Eldritch Moon) That may obviously have very bad consequences for Sorin and/or the people who live in Innistrad, maybe the creatures of Innistrad will be insane forever, and/or maybe Sorin will be forced to take over Nahiri's duty of staying in Innistrad and watching over Emrakul.
I think most of us agree with this sentiment and theory. She still has white in her identity, so she still thinks she is doing good. There is clearly more going on here than we know. Maro confirmed this more or less, when he told us to wait until after Eldritch Moon to discuss her colors.
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"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
What if that "good" is for Zendikar? To draw the titans off of it? Nahiri isn't aware, as far as we know, that the Gatewatch planned to and finally did kill off the titans.
Emrakul is very different from Ulamog and Kozilek.
She doesn't leave Wastes in her wake. She obliterates things by her mere presence. I doubt the Gatewatch can use the same "Bonds of Mortality/Fall of the Titans" method against Emrakul.
Burn from Within seems to suggest that this could be the last of Sorin.
That is not Sorin. He doesn't wear that stereotypical ridiculous Dracula cape.
I don't think it's Sorin, but it could the collar of his leather jacket. The artist might have gone a bit overboard on that one.
If it was supposed to be sorin, wizards would send it back and tell the artist to fix it or try again.
You mean, like they did with Eric Deschamps' terrible artwork for Sorin in SoI?
So, you looked at that artwork and wondered "hmmm, who is that?" before looking at the card title? Really?
I looked at the art and said "oh cool, a Sorin PW card". Burn from within is a random unremarkable vampire wearing a goofy cape. If that was supposed to be Sorin, wizards would have told the artist that he messed up, and changed it to look like Sorin.
So, you looked at that artwork and wondered "hmmm, who is that?" before looking at the card title? Really?
I looked at the art and said "oh cool, a Sorin PW card". Burn from within is a random unremarkable vampire wearing a goofy cape. If that was supposed to be Sorin, wizards would have told the artist that he messed up, and changed it to look like Sorin.
Absolutely not the point, but good job on your strawman argument. You really bring a lot to a debate.
That was an example off the top of my head to show that WoTC doesn't "recall" half as much as you'd like to think. There are plenty of examples of art that misses the mark.
Look at the facial features and the hair on the card, and you'll see that the looks of the vampire is not far off from Sorin.
Of course, I'm not even arguing that it is Sorin, but then again, you'd have to have properly read what i wrote.
Emrakul is very different from Ulamog and Kozilek.
She doesn't leave Wastes in her wake. She obliterates things by her mere presence. I doubt the Gatewatch can use the same "Bonds of Mortality/Fall of the Titans" method against Emrakul.
We shall see what's up in the next expansion.
Even if it could work against Emrakul, she's not on Zendikar anymore. I don't know what Innistrad could do to seal Emrakul, let alone defeat her there.
It's interesting how Avacyn and Radiant's ends are similar. Radiant: "I am the mad one!" and Avacyn "I only meant to protect."
So, you looked at that artwork and wondered "hmmm, who is that?" before looking at the card title? Really?
I looked at the art and said "oh cool, a Sorin PW card". Burn from within is a random unremarkable vampire wearing a goofy cape. If that was supposed to be Sorin, wizards would have told the artist that he messed up, and changed it to look like Sorin.
Absolutely not the point, but good job on your strawman argument. You really bring a lot to a debate.
That was an example off the top of my head to show that WoTC doesn't "recall" half as much as you'd like to think. There are plenty of examples of art that misses the mark.
Look at the facial features and the hair on the card, and you'll see that the looks of the vampire is not far off from Sorin.
Of course, I'm not even arguing that it is Sorin, but then again, you'd have to have properly read what i wrote.
You need to explain yourself further then. First I argued that if the art was supposed to be Sorin, they would have sent it back and told the artist to try again because it doesn't look like him. You then responded by pointing out Sorin's newest card as a self-evident example that wizards doesn't ask for changes to their art as often as I thought, as if I could look at that picture and go "oh yeah, you are right, my God that picture is terrible".
Uhhh.... no. It actually isn't. I'm not rushing out to order a print or anything, but its a perfectly fine picture of Sorin for a Magic card. I'm confused why you would think that Sorin art from Eric Deschamps is so bad. The only other thing that could have possibly made any sense to me was that you somehow didn't think you could look at the Eric Deschamps art and know its Sorin. I wasn't being snarky or building "a strawman", its the only thing I could come up with as what your argument could be, so maybe you could try assuming good faith.
But, if your argument is basically "that art is so horrible, its existence on a card is proof that Wizards doesn't ask for fixes to flaws in the art", well then we're in a qualitative argument where I can't prove you wrong without polling thousands of Magic players, so I'll just say you are wrong in my opinion, its fine. Burn from within's art on the other hand, if it was supposed to depict Sorin, is not acceptable because you can't easily identify him as Sorin, given that he doesn't wear that ridiculous outfit.
So, you looked at that artwork and wondered "hmmm, who is that?" before looking at the card title? Really?
I looked at the art and said "oh cool, a Sorin PW card". Burn from within is a random unremarkable vampire wearing a goofy cape. If that was supposed to be Sorin, wizards would have told the artist that he messed up, and changed it to look like Sorin.
Absolutely not the point, but good job on your strawman argument. You really bring a lot to a debate.
That was an example off the top of my head to show that WoTC doesn't "recall" half as much as you'd like to think. There are plenty of examples of art that misses the mark.
Look at the facial features and the hair on the card, and you'll see that the looks of the vampire is not far off from Sorin.
Of course, I'm not even arguing that it is Sorin, but then again, you'd have to have properly read what i wrote.
In fact, WoTC has sent sketchs back to artists for corrections, that happens ALL the time in that field of work, written descriptions can go only so far before getting the first sketchs of the intended design, you can take the example of the second Ob Nixilis card, which showed him withOUT the hedron stuck in his forehead, but when you check the original piece, he still has the hedron there.
Also, several cards have art that don't exactly match the card for a number of other reaons, like the card being changed after the art was completed, or the art was left without a card to go and was used later into another card later.
But, we're talking here about a fictional character which doesn't have any resemblance to any living or actual person, he simply appears as "some good-looking man" and there's it, it's kinda absurd to try to claim that "that vampire doesn't look like Sorin" when basically you can't tell apart drawn people because of something called "generic cuteness", where lots of artists simply draw good-looking people as their "default human base", that's one reason of why the characters always use the same clothing or said clothing barely changes with time, because that remains as a more useful method to recognizing the character rather than taking a look at their face, you can go and look at the Planeswalkers in different cards to see that.
She doesn't leave Wastes in her wake. She obliterates things by her mere presence.
Ulamog was the one that obliterated things by its mere presence, be it organic OR inorganic; Kozilek simply turned inorganic matter into shiny crystals for the lulz, and shredded everything organic on sight; Emrakul is supossed to "corrupt" organic stuff into parts of itself, much like Phyrexians do with the Glistening Oil which turns the lifeforms into phyrexians, Emrakul doesn't affect inorganic matter. That's what the Zendikar artbook said at least, in RoE, they all just dissolved stuff by being near, thus the annihilator ability.
In fact, WoTC has sent sketchs back to artists for corrections, that happens ALL the time in that field of work, written descriptions can go only so far before getting the first sketchs of the intended design, you can take the example of the second Ob Nixilis card, which showed him withOUT the hedron stuck in his forehead, but when you check the original piece, he still has the hedron there.
I guess you missed the fact that the second Ob Nixilis card is supposed to depict him immediately after the Hebron was removed?
But, we're talking here about a fictional character which doesn't have any resemblance to any living or actual person, he simply appears as "some good-looking man" and there's it, it's kinda absurd to try to claim that "that vampire doesn't look like Sorin" when basically you can't tell apart drawn people because of something called "generic cuteness", where lots of artists simply draw good-looking people as their "default human base", that's one reason of why the characters always use the same clothing or said clothing barely changes with time, because that remains as a more useful method to recognizing the character rather than taking a look at their face, you can go and look at the Planeswalkers in different cards to see that.
Wizards puts a ton of effort into character design these days. They don't just tell someone "Go draw an ancient vampire," they refine their designs until they get a look that is instantly recognizable, so that when people look at a card, even if the character isn't mentioned anywhere, they can say "Oh hey, that's Sorin!" The vampire seen in Burn From Within is not instantly recognizable as Sorin. Why the hell would Wizards make a card depicting a character if you can't recognize the character?
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"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
...
I guess you missed the fact that the second Ob Nixilis card is supposed to depict him immediately after the Hebron was removed?
That was what I meant, the artist was asked to draw Ob Nixilis, and after he submitted the picture, he was asked to make a modification to erase the hedron from the forehead because the card was supossed to depict Nixilis after the hedron was removed.
...
Wizards puts a ton of effort into character design these days. They don't just tell someone "Go draw an ancient vampire," they refine their designs until they get a look that is instantly recognizable, so that when people look at a card, even if the character isn't mentioned anywhere, they can say "Oh hey, that's Sorin!" The vampire seen in Burn From Within is not instantly recognizable as Sorin. Why the hell would Wizards make a card depicting a character if you can't recognize the character?
And that's where the clothing helps, that's what I said too, the fact that some people confused the vampire from Burn from Within with Sorin might be because their faces look alike: White long hair and pale skin.
Now, as you said, when you define a design to make it look unique, you could go for the clothing because that's the most notorious feature and the first thing people tend to notice, Sorin's armor has an unique design because his face is rather generic, yet the color combination with the black-sclera eyes is something that helps identify him easily.
For a character that has a facial feature that really distinguishes him from the rest, I think you can take Gideon as an example, his sideburns are rather unique, and I bet the reference page for Gideon must say "don't forget the sideburns!"
I think you're arguing for arguing's sake. I don't pay that much attention to the storyline nowadays and I could tell you that wasn't Sorin on Burn from Within.
I like the line of speculation that Nahiri's luring Emrakul to Innistrad both to spite Sorin and to trap her.
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Could it be Edgar??
Unless they hire G.R.R. Martin for some bit o' writing, I doubt they're going to kill their star players
I don't think it's Sorin, but it could the collar of his leather jacket. The artist might have gone a bit overboard on that one.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
You mean Urza and Mishra and the Weatherlight crew? That's a loooong time ago.
Yeah, and they took years to kill them.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
If it was supposed to be sorin, wizards would send it back and tell the artist to fix it or try again.
From there, a lot of people have begun to theorize that Nahiri is not luring Emrakul to Innistrad to destroy the plane, but rather to trap Emrakul in the silver moon. (Eldritch Moon) That may obviously have very bad consequences for Sorin and/or the people who live in Innistrad, maybe the creatures of Innistrad will be insane forever, and/or maybe Sorin will be forced to take over Nahiri's duty of staying in Innistrad and watching over Emrakul.
I think most of us agree with this sentiment and theory. She still has white in her identity, so she still thinks she is doing good. There is clearly more going on here than we know. Maro confirmed this more or less, when he told us to wait until after Eldritch Moon to discuss her colors.
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
She doesn't leave Wastes in her wake. She obliterates things by her mere presence. I doubt the Gatewatch can use the same "Bonds of Mortality/Fall of the Titans" method against Emrakul.
We shall see what's up in the next expansion.
You mean, like they did with Eric Deschamps' terrible artwork for Sorin in SoI?
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
So, you looked at that artwork and wondered "hmmm, who is that?" before looking at the card title? Really?
I looked at the art and said "oh cool, a Sorin PW card". Burn from within is a random unremarkable vampire wearing a goofy cape. If that was supposed to be Sorin, wizards would have told the artist that he messed up, and changed it to look like Sorin.
Absolutely not the point, but good job on your strawman argument. You really bring a lot to a debate.
That was an example off the top of my head to show that WoTC doesn't "recall" half as much as you'd like to think. There are plenty of examples of art that misses the mark.
Look at the facial features and the hair on the card, and you'll see that the looks of the vampire is not far off from Sorin.
Of course, I'm not even arguing that it is Sorin, but then again, you'd have to have properly read what i wrote.
It's interesting how Avacyn and Radiant's ends are similar. Radiant: "I am the mad one!" and Avacyn "I only meant to protect."
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
You need to explain yourself further then. First I argued that if the art was supposed to be Sorin, they would have sent it back and told the artist to try again because it doesn't look like him. You then responded by pointing out Sorin's newest card as a self-evident example that wizards doesn't ask for changes to their art as often as I thought, as if I could look at that picture and go "oh yeah, you are right, my God that picture is terrible".
Uhhh.... no. It actually isn't. I'm not rushing out to order a print or anything, but its a perfectly fine picture of Sorin for a Magic card. I'm confused why you would think that Sorin art from Eric Deschamps is so bad. The only other thing that could have possibly made any sense to me was that you somehow didn't think you could look at the Eric Deschamps art and know its Sorin. I wasn't being snarky or building "a strawman", its the only thing I could come up with as what your argument could be, so maybe you could try assuming good faith.
But, if your argument is basically "that art is so horrible, its existence on a card is proof that Wizards doesn't ask for fixes to flaws in the art", well then we're in a qualitative argument where I can't prove you wrong without polling thousands of Magic players, so I'll just say you are wrong in my opinion, its fine. Burn from within's art on the other hand, if it was supposed to depict Sorin, is not acceptable because you can't easily identify him as Sorin, given that he doesn't wear that ridiculous outfit.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
In fact, WoTC has sent sketchs back to artists for corrections, that happens ALL the time in that field of work, written descriptions can go only so far before getting the first sketchs of the intended design, you can take the example of the second Ob Nixilis card, which showed him withOUT the hedron stuck in his forehead, but when you check the original piece, he still has the hedron there.
Also, several cards have art that don't exactly match the card for a number of other reaons, like the card being changed after the art was completed, or the art was left without a card to go and was used later into another card later.
But, we're talking here about a fictional character which doesn't have any resemblance to any living or actual person, he simply appears as "some good-looking man" and there's it, it's kinda absurd to try to claim that "that vampire doesn't look like Sorin" when basically you can't tell apart drawn people because of something called "generic cuteness", where lots of artists simply draw good-looking people as their "default human base", that's one reason of why the characters always use the same clothing or said clothing barely changes with time, because that remains as a more useful method to recognizing the character rather than taking a look at their face, you can go and look at the Planeswalkers in different cards to see that.
Ulamog was the one that obliterated things by its mere presence, be it organic OR inorganic; Kozilek simply turned inorganic matter into shiny crystals for the lulz, and shredded everything organic on sight; Emrakul is supossed to "corrupt" organic stuff into parts of itself, much like Phyrexians do with the Glistening Oil which turns the lifeforms into phyrexians, Emrakul doesn't affect inorganic matter. That's what the Zendikar artbook said at least, in RoE, they all just dissolved stuff by being near, thus the annihilator ability.
Fan of Both old and new Slivers (But the new ones are still better anyway)
C Call of Emrakul - G vs R DD: Elves vs. Goblins - W vs B DD: Divine vs. Demonic - WUB Esper Artifice - RGW Aura Dancers
WUBRG Wrath of the Reaper King - WB Men of Faith - B Mercenaries - UB Phyrexian Assault 2.0 - WU Artifacts of Empires
BR Skeleton Warriors - RG Night of The Howlpack - B Bog Murderers - BR Eldrazi Assault - BGU Ulamog's Swarm
I guess you missed the fact that the second Ob Nixilis card is supposed to depict him immediately after the Hebron was removed?
Wizards puts a ton of effort into character design these days. They don't just tell someone "Go draw an ancient vampire," they refine their designs until they get a look that is instantly recognizable, so that when people look at a card, even if the character isn't mentioned anywhere, they can say "Oh hey, that's Sorin!" The vampire seen in Burn From Within is not instantly recognizable as Sorin. Why the hell would Wizards make a card depicting a character if you can't recognize the character?
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
That was what I meant, the artist was asked to draw Ob Nixilis, and after he submitted the picture, he was asked to make a modification to erase the hedron from the forehead because the card was supossed to depict Nixilis after the hedron was removed.
And that's where the clothing helps, that's what I said too, the fact that some people confused the vampire from Burn from Within with Sorin might be because their faces look alike: White long hair and pale skin.
Now, as you said, when you define a design to make it look unique, you could go for the clothing because that's the most notorious feature and the first thing people tend to notice, Sorin's armor has an unique design because his face is rather generic, yet the color combination with the black-sclera eyes is something that helps identify him easily.
For a character that has a facial feature that really distinguishes him from the rest, I think you can take Gideon as an example, his sideburns are rather unique, and I bet the reference page for Gideon must say "don't forget the sideburns!"
Fan of Both old and new Slivers (But the new ones are still better anyway)
C Call of Emrakul - G vs R DD: Elves vs. Goblins - W vs B DD: Divine vs. Demonic - WUB Esper Artifice - RGW Aura Dancers
WUBRG Wrath of the Reaper King - WB Men of Faith - B Mercenaries - UB Phyrexian Assault 2.0 - WU Artifacts of Empires
BR Skeleton Warriors - RG Night of The Howlpack - B Bog Murderers - BR Eldrazi Assault - BGU Ulamog's Swarm
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I like the line of speculation that Nahiri's luring Emrakul to Innistrad both to spite Sorin and to trap her.