Also, in his current state, he can hardly feed (and he has to feed in order to survive, because he is not an oldwalker any more). So, if he does not bleed out, he will starve. I expected Nahiri to seal him in some kind of stasis coccoon while keeping him full aware of what is happening around, not this.
Yeah that's what I was expecting too. But admittedly the spikes holding him where he can see the supposed destruction of his home is more appropriate.
Oh, wow.... so as a final nail in the coffin, Wizards finally devolves into turning Sorin into the villain of the block to be defeated by "the forces of good", huh?
I think I should start considering talking about shipping in this thread to pass the time...
Oh, wow.... so as a final nail in the coffin, Wizards finally devolves into turning Sorin into the villain of the block to be defeated by "the forces of good", huh?
I think I should start considering talking about shipping in this thread to pass the time...
It's a little hard to call Nahiri a "force for good" at this point. Lacking any objective outside hurting Sorin renders her, at least with regard to SOI, pretty unambiguously evil.
wut Nahiri was clearly the villain here by bringing a cosmic horror that caused the deaths of thousands wich she din't care as long she got her revenge...
The story development was super disappointing. They had the chance to create much more complex and compelling characters and blew it (as far as we know).
Lol I don't get this Sorin being a villain thing. I don't get why he was in MaRos head to head. Sure sorins never been what most people would call "good" but hes never been outright villainous. We've seen him try to stop the Eldrazi from breaking free of Zendikar. Sacrifice one plane to save all the rest. The next time we saw him he was looking into the disappearance of Avacyn but by the time he was done dealing with Dack, Lili had already handled it. Perhaps he could have even pulled Avacyn out without releasing the demons and Nahiri. Next time we see him he's looking for Ugin for the sake of stopping the Eldrazi. And now he's returned to Innistrad to try and stop Nahiri from destroying it. And not to mention his help in trying to protect the nameless plane the Eldrazi ate, and the help with sealing the Eldrazi. The only time his overarching goal wasn't what most people would consider good was when Nahiri came to him just after he brought down the Helvault. And that was morally neutral. Sure he was dickish but he wasn't wrong.
And I've already made my opinions about Nahiri very clear multiple times.
Oh, wow.... so as a final nail in the coffin, Wizards finally devolves into turning Sorin into the villain of the block to be defeated by "the forces of good", huh?
I think I should start considering talking about shipping in this thread to pass the time...
Dude, really? Are we reading the same story? How is Sorin "the villain of the block"? How is Nahiri even remotely "The forces of good?"
Sorin is, and always has been, a selfish, ruthless, dark, cruel, callous vampire with occasional streaks of nobility running through his character. He hurt Nahiri and pissed her off, and now she's gone mad with hatred and is delivering such disproportionate vengeance upon his plane that she herself has become an even greater monster than he is. Sorin has suffered endlessly throughout these two sets--this entire block is about him being haunted by his past crimes and his old demons catching up with him. He's not in any position of power to be the villain. He isn't driving the conflict--the conflict is being inflicted upon him.
I think you're trying to make this a black and white story when it's really such a dark shade of gray on both sides that it's hard to tell who we should root for--both sides have legitimate grievances and behave in questionable, extreme ways. I'll take it happily--this is the first truly clouded moral conflict Wizards has done in many, many years. I suspect people aren't used to seeing it in Magic and are still trying to fit it into the usual simplistic good vs. evil paradigm. It's not a perfect story by any means, but it's the best we've had in some years.
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"I'd rather die speaking the truth than live a lie." --Gix, to Yawgmoth (pre-Phyrexia)
Oh, wow.... so as a final nail in the coffin, Wizards finally devolves into turning Sorin into the villain of the block to be defeated by "the forces of good", huh?
I think I should start considering talking about shipping in this thread to pass the time...
Ah yes, the petty mass-murderer is "th forces of good" now.
I think that the solution to this will be Ugin getting to Innistrad either because he was tracking Emrakul or because he is wondering why Soring is taking so long to bring Nahiri to him and finding Sorin in the stone... I hope, at least
Oh, wow.... so as a final nail in the coffin, Wizards finally devolves into turning Sorin into the villain of the block to be defeated by "the forces of good", huh?
I think I should start considering talking about shipping in this thread to pass the time...
Sorin wasn't the villain. Nahiri was. This wasn't good vs evil either. This was evil vs evil or at best anti-hero vs villain. The good guys in this story are: Tamiyo, Jace, Chandra, Nissa, Gideon, and Liliana. Thats it. Sorin is not good. Nahiri is not good.
Sorin being defeated isn't remotely the same thing as him being the villain. Neither Sorin nor Nahiri is treated like a hero, which is fitting given neither are. Sorin has done legitimately bad things, as has Nahiri. Trying to simplify one as the good side (especially Nahiri) is laughable.
Checking out today's previews, I have to admit that Imprisoned in the Moon, while a really cool card from a gamelay standpoint, has its unique flavor woefully tainted by its mana cost. Now you too can imprison Emrakul and save the world for only three mana.
As far as world-bending magic goes, that's a steal.
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"I'd rather die speaking the truth than live a lie." --Gix, to Yawgmoth (pre-Phyrexia)
Aligned Hedron Network lets you imprison Ulamog for only 4, Bonds of Mortality lets you anchor the Eldrazi Titans to a physical plane for only 2, and 15 Squirrels can defeat Emrakul at the height of her power.
To answer why I accuse Wizards of sorting Sorin as a villain, the last few articles involving him have him do things that are pretty much villain things: Making a deal with an evil force (Olivia), killing his own daughter as part of that bargain (I was hoping that Avacyn's death was more like because Sorin knew that with Avacyn gone mad, the Avacynian religion could no longer hold anyway, but no, they have to 'simplify' it by making it essentially nothing more than a murder), trying to finish off someone he wronged (just like how most villains want to finish the job of killing heroes), and lastly being left for dead by the entity he made bargain with (this is the classic bad guy made deal with the devil and pay dearly).
I know that Sorin, as least when he's introduced, was never a villain, only ruthless and somewhat uncaring, thus he's never a hero either, but the last few articles completely and utterly fail to convey that even in the barest sense.
And do notice I put the "forces of good" under quotation marks: Nahiri is currently doing very, very heinous things, but compared to Olivia's forces, she's still less black.
Sorry if I said a few questionable things; like a rare few others in this forum, I am pretty much devastated on Wizards' treatment to Sorin (starting WAY BACK from Dark Ascension/Avacyn Restored, by the way), with the last article being, like I said, the nail to the coffin. The only solace being that he's not the only ancient being who suffers this.... pitiful derailment.
Really, ever since we have the Gatewatch, the storyline setting (not the worldbuilding; only storytelling) have mostly been over-simplified. Ok, I admit there's not quite a sense of hero-vs-villain when it comes to Nahiri vs Sorin, but given that their interactions was no more complex than revenge, I'm not impressed eitherway, and the writers have failed to make it more engaging.
What will change now that Emrakul is in the moon?
What will happen to its orbit and phases?
Will the moon be a better (or equal) prison than Zendikar's Teeth of Akoum?
We know normal creatures' and planeswalkers' power cannot escape moonsilver and can effectively in some way keep away Emrakul, but what about keeping Em's power sealed?
Will the corruption gradually fade away or will Em keep on corrupting Innistrad? Can Em possibly use the Silver Moon as a beacon for her corruption?
And Brusela? Where is she? The wrong spoiler gave her for dead, right? So what's her true fate? Can she be possibly alive and organizing the corrupted in a Coven of Emrakul?
Will this lead to a "Sisters' Neverending War"? (Sigarda's Flock of Humans (and who knows werewolves) vs Brusela's Coven of Monstrosities?)
Will Tamiyo be the guardian of Em's prison? At least for a while? Studying the consequences of its imprisonment?
Will Ugin make a surprise appearance teaching kidwalkers how not to abuse its patience?
What about Sorin? Dead, imprisoned and kept there like a puppy by Olivia or freed? Or maybe some other fate awaits him?
Now that the Onakke spoke through Liliana's Zombies, did she s**t herself? Cause I would have.
Why Kaladesh? Why an Indian FantasySteamPunk Plane would accept our Planeswalkers Clique after Liliana's little problem's outing and the imprisonment of Em? Will there be demons? (You know what I mean ;)) Or will this just mean a new storyarc to bring Chandra in the focus?
As a token of apology for my rather short-tempered rant earlier, I'll try to answer this just to keep this thread healthy, at least.
- With Emrakul in the moon, I'm suspecting that there'll be just less Eldrazi roaming around, but some people will still probably be chanting "Ftaghn Ftaghn" at midnight. And this may (or perhaps will) mean Tamiyo will stay at Innistrad longer to study the moon further; Any further questions about the moon probably will have to wait until we see Tamiyo again after this.
- Speaking of moonsilver, well, if I get the gist, Sorin made Helvault from a piece of the moon. But even if that's true, I'd rather not assume that Helvault's power is innate; I suspect that while Sorin understood the moon's power, he still did a few adjustments here and there to truly create the Helvault. So there's a possibility that while the moon may be strong (or big) enough to seal Emrakul, it will not seal it as totally as Helvault. So maybe Em's corruption may still leak out.
- If a spoiled card in the rumor mill is any indication, Brisela probably will.... uh, 'lead' the Flight of Nightmares, opposing the Herons. This would lead to Innistrad having four major 'communities' vying for.... for a lack of better words, power: The Voldarens, the Herons and Order of Saint Traft, Flight of Nightmares and the Skirsdag (I must have misspelled it XD)
- Ugin probably will remain in Zendikar for a long time unless either Nahiri or the Gatewatch visits him. I'd rather Nahiri not visit him, because by seeing Zendikar saved, she, now pretty much an unforgivable *****, might end up being written as "sobbing for doing Sorin wrong and try to make amends".... which would be utterly rubbish (but given the state of storyline these days, her making amends with Sorin and then them walking to sunset whistling love song unfortunately seems all too likely; as if those people need further derailment...). But I digress; anyway, if the Gatewatch is the one visiting Ugin, then there's a possibility for Ugin to visit Innistrad and take its moon to study Em. Tamiyo would be jealous
- Whatever fate Sorin will have, given that he has no more credibility as a character anymore, won't matter. He'll end up being forced to make amends with Nahiri, or conceding that the Gatewatch is a better protector of Innistrad, or killing Olivia and has his story of doing so being written full of spite, etc. I think I really should stop talking about Sorin now that, again, his character credibility is all but gone.
- The Onnake.... I don't have much to say.
- Same with Kaladesh.
You have a very interesting interpretation of things. Making a deal with Olivia I interpreted as trying to find a way to stop Nahiri, and the entire thing with Avacyn again feels like a necessity to me, at least in how he would view it. He tried to help her, he just couldn't do anything with Nahiri/Emrakul messing with her. And in two different sentences you say that leaving someone to die and trying to finish them off are both villain things. Sorin feels like someone who has done bad things, quite a bit of them, but at least somewhat with noble intentions at times. That unfortunately caught up with him here.
I would label Sorin a hero personally. Granted he wasn't the most obvious about it, but typically when push came to shove he did at least attempt to do the noble or right thing. Even when he did questionable thigs or hard choices he often seemed to show some regret (putting his angel down was rough, and something he tried hard to prevent). Again there's exceptions to this of course but looking at his outline I view him more of a hero then most of the multiverse, with the exception of the new power ranger team (ugh).
killing his own daughter as part of that bargain (I was hoping that Avacyn's death was more like because Sorin knew that with Avacyn gone mad, the Avacynian religion could no longer hold anyway, but no, they have to 'simplify' it by making it essentially nothing more than a murder)
What? No. He just lied to Olivia in order to get her on his side. We know that he killed Avacyn because she had gone mad. He tells Avacyn as much in their final moments together. Its a tragic scene but Sorin isn't so sentimental that he'd fail to exploit it.
I know that Sorin, as least when he's introduced, was never a villain, only ruthless and somewhat uncaring, thus he's never a hero either, but the last few articles completely and utterly fail to convey that even in the barest sense.
I think the point is that Sorin has finally been pushed past the breaking point, exactly like Nahiri was. He's lost everything. He killed his own daughter in hopes of saving lives all that happened was that his world was devastated. (Indeed we know from Zendikar that sealing Emrakul will almost certainly affect Innistrad even while sealed.)
And do notice I put the "forces of good" under quotation marks: Nahiri is currently doing very, very heinous things, but compared to Olivia's forces, she's still less black.
I mean less Black, sure, but she way more evil. Olivia is actually a little bit noble here (if you set aside the part where she's an insane serial killer). She's trying to save her people (okay probably mostly herself but also her bloodline and her food source).
Really, ever since we have the Gatewatch, the storyline setting (not the worldbuilding; only storytelling) have mostly been over-simplified.
In fairness to Wizards the Gatewatch also came to prominence as they made a huge transition in block structure. Kaladesh is the first block they didn't have to modify because of the switch to two sets per block, I believe. Besides SOI/EMN isn't nearly as poorly told as BFZ/OGW in my opinion. The story gets across what it needs to much more effectively.
So. Will we get any "good aligned" Werewolves this set..?
Mechanically, the only real werewolf we are getting is Ulrich.
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Vorthos Cartography - Check out my completed maps of Zendikar and Innistrad!
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
In terms of D&D allignments, he probably might be Neutral Evil.
Sorin seems pretty Lawful Evil. Bolas would be Neutral Evil.
Not really sure. Sorin agreed to return to Zendikar in time of trouble, so a Lawful character would probably feel compelled to honor the pact, no matter what. Sorin's reaction was more like "ok, but now I have something more important to do".
He was told there was minor trouble but it was fixed. He was concerned until told it was fixed. Then he was asked to go admire the handy work and he said later when he regains himself and makes sure what he just did works. Promises were not broken.
Yeah that's what I was expecting too. But admittedly the spikes holding him where he can see the supposed destruction of his home is more appropriate.
I think I should start considering talking about shipping in this thread to pass the time...
It's a little hard to call Nahiri a "force for good" at this point. Lacking any objective outside hurting Sorin renders her, at least with regard to SOI, pretty unambiguously evil.
And I've already made my opinions about Nahiri very clear multiple times.
Dude, really? Are we reading the same story? How is Sorin "the villain of the block"? How is Nahiri even remotely "The forces of good?"
Sorin is, and always has been, a selfish, ruthless, dark, cruel, callous vampire with occasional streaks of nobility running through his character. He hurt Nahiri and pissed her off, and now she's gone mad with hatred and is delivering such disproportionate vengeance upon his plane that she herself has become an even greater monster than he is. Sorin has suffered endlessly throughout these two sets--this entire block is about him being haunted by his past crimes and his old demons catching up with him. He's not in any position of power to be the villain. He isn't driving the conflict--the conflict is being inflicted upon him.
I think you're trying to make this a black and white story when it's really such a dark shade of gray on both sides that it's hard to tell who we should root for--both sides have legitimate grievances and behave in questionable, extreme ways. I'll take it happily--this is the first truly clouded moral conflict Wizards has done in many, many years. I suspect people aren't used to seeing it in Magic and are still trying to fit it into the usual simplistic good vs. evil paradigm. It's not a perfect story by any means, but it's the best we've had in some years.
Ah yes, the petty mass-murderer is "th forces of good" now.
That would make for some fantastic mocking.
Sorin wasn't the villain. Nahiri was. This wasn't good vs evil either. This was evil vs evil or at best anti-hero vs villain. The good guys in this story are: Tamiyo, Jace, Chandra, Nissa, Gideon, and Liliana. Thats it. Sorin is not good. Nahiri is not good.
GWUEnduring EgoGWU
GWUBant TempoGWU
EDH:
WUNoyan DarWU
As far as world-bending magic goes, that's a steal.
I know that Sorin, as least when he's introduced, was never a villain, only ruthless and somewhat uncaring, thus he's never a hero either, but the last few articles completely and utterly fail to convey that even in the barest sense.
And do notice I put the "forces of good" under quotation marks: Nahiri is currently doing very, very heinous things, but compared to Olivia's forces, she's still less black.
Sorry if I said a few questionable things; like a rare few others in this forum, I am pretty much devastated on Wizards' treatment to Sorin (starting WAY BACK from Dark Ascension/Avacyn Restored, by the way), with the last article being, like I said, the nail to the coffin. The only solace being that he's not the only ancient being who suffers this.... pitiful derailment.
Really, ever since we have the Gatewatch, the storyline setting (not the worldbuilding; only storytelling) have mostly been over-simplified. Ok, I admit there's not quite a sense of hero-vs-villain when it comes to Nahiri vs Sorin, but given that their interactions was no more complex than revenge, I'm not impressed eitherway, and the writers have failed to make it more engaging.
As a token of apology for my rather short-tempered rant earlier, I'll try to answer this just to keep this thread healthy, at least.
- With Emrakul in the moon, I'm suspecting that there'll be just less Eldrazi roaming around, but some people will still probably be chanting "Ftaghn Ftaghn" at midnight. And this may (or perhaps will) mean Tamiyo will stay at Innistrad longer to study the moon further; Any further questions about the moon probably will have to wait until we see Tamiyo again after this.
- Speaking of moonsilver, well, if I get the gist, Sorin made Helvault from a piece of the moon. But even if that's true, I'd rather not assume that Helvault's power is innate; I suspect that while Sorin understood the moon's power, he still did a few adjustments here and there to truly create the Helvault. So there's a possibility that while the moon may be strong (or big) enough to seal Emrakul, it will not seal it as totally as Helvault. So maybe Em's corruption may still leak out.
- If a spoiled card in the rumor mill is any indication, Brisela probably will.... uh, 'lead' the Flight of Nightmares, opposing the Herons. This would lead to Innistrad having four major 'communities' vying for.... for a lack of better words, power: The Voldarens, the Herons and Order of Saint Traft, Flight of Nightmares and the Skirsdag (I must have misspelled it XD)
- Ugin probably will remain in Zendikar for a long time unless either Nahiri or the Gatewatch visits him. I'd rather Nahiri not visit him, because by seeing Zendikar saved, she, now pretty much an unforgivable *****, might end up being written as "sobbing for doing Sorin wrong and try to make amends".... which would be utterly rubbish (but given the state of storyline these days, her making amends with Sorin and then them walking to sunset whistling love song unfortunately seems all too likely; as if those people need further derailment...). But I digress; anyway, if the Gatewatch is the one visiting Ugin, then there's a possibility for Ugin to visit Innistrad and take its moon to study Em. Tamiyo would be jealous
- Whatever fate Sorin will have, given that he has no more credibility as a character anymore, won't matter. He'll end up being forced to make amends with Nahiri, or conceding that the Gatewatch is a better protector of Innistrad, or killing Olivia and has his story of doing so being written full of spite, etc. I think I really should stop talking about Sorin now that, again, his character credibility is all but gone.
- The Onnake.... I don't have much to say.
- Same with Kaladesh.
Sorin seems pretty Lawful Evil. Bolas would be Neutral Evil.
What? No. He just lied to Olivia in order to get her on his side. We know that he killed Avacyn because she had gone mad. He tells Avacyn as much in their final moments together. Its a tragic scene but Sorin isn't so sentimental that he'd fail to exploit it.
He's definitely going after Nahiri in self defense. True he started it but his fight with Nahiri isn't about finishing off the hero.
I think the point is that Sorin has finally been pushed past the breaking point, exactly like Nahiri was. He's lost everything. He killed his own daughter in hopes of saving lives all that happened was that his world was devastated. (Indeed we know from Zendikar that sealing Emrakul will almost certainly affect Innistrad even while sealed.)
I mean less Black, sure, but she way more evil. Olivia is actually a little bit noble here (if you set aside the part where she's an insane serial killer). She's trying to save her people (okay probably mostly herself but also her bloodline and her food source).
In fairness to Wizards the Gatewatch also came to prominence as they made a huge transition in block structure. Kaladesh is the first block they didn't have to modify because of the switch to two sets per block, I believe. Besides SOI/EMN isn't nearly as poorly told as BFZ/OGW in my opinion. The story gets across what it needs to much more effectively.
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[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Mechanically, the only real werewolf we are getting is Ulrich.
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
He was told there was minor trouble but it was fixed. He was concerned until told it was fixed. Then he was asked to go admire the handy work and he said later when he regains himself and makes sure what he just did works. Promises were not broken.
This.
In story, maybe. But most if not all werewolf cards are former members of the howpacks being twisted into the new, Thing-homage Dronepack