The angel hate at WOTC needs to stop. It's annoying and not justified. Angels are second to Dragons as most popular.
The story is being handled well unlike BFZ, but it is still annoying that Innistrad is being compromised, even if it does layer cosmic horror over gothic horror. Notice I said annoying, not bad.
It's fine if it occurs here in this story. It's understandable that it had to on Zendikar. But when Maro says peaceful returns which simply explore a loved plane without introducing catastrophic apocalypse each time like RTR are some special exception exclusive to Ravnica that can't work anywhere else, I will vehemently disagree. Theros should NOT feature a cataclysm when we return there, for example. There is no need for it. Greek mythology, Elspeth's own story, and the natural plane of Theros as a world of gods, monsters and heroes has enough material for a story and for interesting cards. Stop trashing loved planes and acting surprised to find those who loved it for what it was get upset that it's trashed. Why bother returning to a plane if it isn't even going to be what it was? The whole point of returning is consistency. Replicating what worked. Letting people enjoy what they did the first time, but in a new way. Catastrophically altering and changing what the plane was originally in the revisit after fans waited YEARS experiencing other planes in the hopes of reliving that prior experience is going to upset people to find it trashed, changed and entirely different. I don't want to return to Theros to experience its conflicts and its disasters. I want to return to THEROS. Not to the ruins of Theros. Not to Theros that now is no longer Theros. I want THEROS. I want Elspeth. I want Ajani. I want their story continued. I want to know what happened to Thassa after she lost her Bident. I want Krakens and Hydras and beautiful sunset scenes and idyllic coastal cities and Grecian-inspired beaches in Islands. That's what I freaking WANT. Oh and Arixmethes.
Maro and his excuse of every return needing to be a trashed world is infuriating and outrageous. Creative can do better - and it has. Godsend was a lovely way to have conflict without rending the plane while also telling a beautiful Greek tragedy story involving Elspeth, Daxos and Ajani. Switch things up, do some of that.
I disliked Battle for Zendikar largely for that very reason, it bore almost no resemblance to the original Zendikar. On the other hand, Return to Ravnica was somewhat underwhelming for the opposite reason, it was too similar to the first set and felt rather bland and predictable as a result. I thought Shadows Over Innistrad (the set, not necessarily the whole block) struck the perfect balance in that regard, it still kept the overall tone and feel of the original Innistrad, but with enough changes and differences and new concepts that it didn't feel like a complete rehash. I'm not sure if Eldritch Moon will continue to keep that balance, but I really like what I've seen of it so far. For instance, the newest Delver shows that they can incorporate the Eldrazi into Innistrad in a way that enriches the gothic horror feel rather than detracting from it.
Agreed entirely. And while I did mention Zendikar in ruins made sense, it isn't something I appreciated either. In fact, I am part of the vocal majority which were upset for not returning to Adventure World. But no one can argue the story wasn't obligated to pick up where ROE left off - still, it could have just been the main titans as antagonists without the brood lineage, and without Eldrazi choking out the entire set. BFZ was simply poorly executed to meet expectations. It is what it is at this point, but the pitfalls must be pointed out. SOI did strike a reasonable balance and I have enjoyed it. Eldritch Moon so far has had cards that interest me, and could go either way. I will say regarding RTR, while it was largely similar, it was also very successful, and as someone who was not playing around original Ravnica, it was great to get the experience. Granted experiencing it confirmed that I neither like gold cards, guilds nor Ravnica itself, but I still really enjoyed that time and the authenticity and consistency of the block with the original. I'd prefer bland over devastated and ruined. Especially for a plane I already admire.It's not even about high standards at this point - it's about approaching something correctly.
Whether Innistrad will stay true to its original feel or not is up in the air at this point. Whether EMN is good or not is irrelevant because Vorthos is most concerned now with the general mood and tone of the plane after this story resolves. Zendikar now has swaths destroyed and two entire continents gone with a severely dwindled population. It's a post-apocalypse world now, so justifying it as Adventure World after it was royally wrecked and people were killed is a reach. The spirit of a vast lush world of treasures and treasure hunters feels awkward after what transpired there. Stranger still would be the prospect of its tiny populace picking up after a planar threat and thinking "I think I'll go out now and look for gold!" One could argue it's a survival tactic and make any number of excuses for it, but frankly, the spirit of the plane feels broken to me. And that's not what I want to happen to Innistrad (I don't suspect it will, so far, but one can' be blamed after BFZ for being apprehensive). And least of all, I don't ever want this to happen to a plane like Theros, which like original Zendikar, holds a lot of promise and popularity independent of the crutch storytelling and cheap thrills being employed repetitively in lieu of a proper collection of lore.
The angel hate at WOTC needs to stop. It's annoying and not justified. Angels are second to Dragons as most popular.
The story is being handled well unlike BFZ, but it is still annoying that Innistrad is being compromised, even if it does layer cosmic horror over gothic horror. Notice I said annoying, not bad.
It's fine if it occurs here in this story. It's understandable that it had to on Zendikar. But when Maro says peaceful returns which simply explore a loved plane without introducing catastrophic apocalypse each time like RTR are some special exception exclusive to Ravnica that can't work anywhere else, I will vehemently disagree. Theros should NOT feature a cataclysm when we return there, for example. There is no need for it. Greek mythology, Elspeth's own story, and the natural plane of Theros as a world of gods, monsters and heroes has enough material for a story and for interesting cards. Stop trashing loved planes and acting surprised to find those who loved it for what it was get upset that it's trashed. Why bother returning to a plane if it isn't even going to be what it was? The whole point of returning is consistency. Replicating what worked. Letting people enjoy what they did the first time, but in a new way. Catastrophically altering and changing what the plane was originally in the revisit after fans waited YEARS experiencing other planes in the hopes of reliving that prior experience is going to upset people to find it trashed, changed and entirely different. I don't want to return to Theros to experience its conflicts and its disasters. I want to return to THEROS. Not to the ruins of Theros. Not to Theros that now is no longer Theros. I want THEROS. I want Elspeth. I want Ajani. I want their story continued. I want to know what happened to Thassa after she lost her Bident. I want Krakens and Hydras and beautiful sunset scenes and idyllic coastal cities and Grecian-inspired beaches in Islands. That's what I freaking WANT. Oh and Arixmethes.
Maro and his excuse of every return needing to be a trashed world is infuriating and outrageous. Creative can do better - and it has. Godsend was a lovely way to have conflict without rending the plane while also telling a beautiful Greek tragedy story involving Elspeth, Daxos and Ajani. Switch things up, do some of that.
It does definitely feel like angels get thrashed more frequently than dragons. I kind of doubt in "Return to Dragons of Tarkir" that what happened to the angels will be anywhere near as bad, most likely just going to be resurrection of the old clans somehow, though I kind of question how they'll do that. I will say that it's definitely a feeling thing, and it's hard to tell how accurate that is overall, but fallen angels is a thing they like to throw in pretty consistently.
Also agree on the general thing about how they don't need to have such a drastic conflict in order to do a return. Zendikar is kind of arguable and Ravnica very clearly didn't, but the other returns pretty much have had really bad things happen. It's why I'm actually scared at the idea of a return to Kamigawa/Lorwyn, because we'd likely get Phyrexia/Eldrazi attacking. Didn't realize quite how bad it would be (wasn't playing during Scars as much), but I have zero desire to see that happen to anywhere that I'm interested in. Which might be the point of villains but you can make them scary without having to literally corrupt things.
But for others this is exactly what they wanted from the Eldrazi so I don't really see what Wizards could have done really. I do acknowledge that. I'd just rather have drastic shifts/conflicts more along the lines of internal planar drama as opposed to external stuff. Even if that ends badly it still feels a little better.
I think you and Jenrik are getting at the main problem with Wizard's storytelling, or rather, my problem with Wizards storytelling. They just simply don't do things in moderation. Don't just use some gothic horror tropes to build a new plane, use all of them! Don't just have a cosmic titan invade and warp a plane, mutate most of the population into tentacle-faced thralls! They are focusing on planeswalkers more and more, and that means they, in their minds, have to have comparable threats and conflicts. It's not good enough anymore to have a planeswalker solving planar problems, like with Ravnica or Theros, it has to be more encompassing than that. More drastic conflict of course means more drastic effects and changes, and inevitably, some of what makes the settings and characters so beloved in the first place gets lost in the shuffle. This isn't to say it's necessarily creative's "fault," it's just the way Wizards is doing things now.
And you know what? There's nothing objectively wrong with that. It's just Wizards doing what Wizards needs to do to continue making a dynamic, enjoyable product. Maybe s0me people like they way things are going. The numbers certainly show they do. I am just by no means obliged to treat it as the 100% greatest thing ever, and swallow my complaints because Wizards is finally listening to me, blah blah blah. They're not listening to me, or even to us, the Vorhtos. They're listening to the greater player-base, which obviously wants to pull the game in a direction I not a fan of. I'm also not criticizing using Emrakul as the big bad, that decision was done and made years ago. I'm not saying I hate Wizards, or that they are a terrible group of people etc. I'm just expressing my feelings here. I came here for the story, and who knows, maybe if they keep doing things I don't like, I'll drift back away form the game.
To those of you that are sick of hearing about "Wizards isn't doing what I want" or "I hate Wizards because they suck," I'm not going to apologize. This thread is the best place I can think of for expressing my feelings. I'm not hating Wizards, and I am definitely not hating on Eldritch Moon specifically. I'm venting some of my frustrations, and if you don't want to keep reading long pointless rants, then don't read them. My opinions are my own, and I'm not going to change them or shut up about them because you find them tedious.
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Vorthos Cartography - Check out my completed maps of Zendikar and Innistrad!
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
I wonder if this image of Liliana without her trademark demon-etchings reveals anything. Could just be an artist mistake, but you'd think the etchings are an integral part of any art description that depicts her.
EDIT: nevermind. found some other art with her without them. womp womp (liliana of the veil)
From what they said in Liliana's Indignation, it would seem that her scars/tattoos only come out when she is using particularly strong doses of magic. This effect would naturally be amplified by the Chain-Veil, but apparently raising a single ghoul or summoning a ball of purple fire aren't above the threshold for glowing.
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Vorthos Cartography - Check out my completed maps of Zendikar and Innistrad!
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
To change up the conversation a bit, as I think some of us have clearly confirmed our stances on pro or anti-Eldrazi on Innistrad, what are people's thoughts on the Gatewatch now showing up in full based on the trailer and several arts?
Personally, not a fan in the least. Liliana saving the day and even Jace being there, I'm okay with. I've surprisingly enjoyed semi-mad Jace. My issue is why were Gideon, Chandra and Nissa necessary for the storyline? Admittedly, we don't know the full story, but I don't get why the other walkers currently on-world aren't enough? If Liliana is going to be written as the last minute hero, why does it matter if it's only Jace and Tamiyo getting beat down by the new Eldrazi-horror of the plane vs Jace and the Gatewatch? Why did Sorin seemingly just bounce again as Jace described? Can he really still not be written with any sort of character development and maturity? I mean, I'm biased based off of the profile pic, but Arlinn Kord hasn't done a thing plot-relevant. She can't have a moment story-wise, a spotlight or something? Not seen in either trailer, and has one card with Flavor text on it attributed to her. Really?!? Her name literally translates from Gaelic as "oath." Seems like the kind of subtle hint you'd use in a character name to let fans know she'll be important to the plane and maybe even join the Gatewatch. But we have to go through at least another Gatewatch story or two likely before we see her do anything, if she even does.
*sigh* why must my love of wolves and werewolves always be punished by Wotc?
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Vorthos-player with way too much time on his hands and a love of thematic decks.
EDH - Yes, Each One is Named After a Song. I love tying music to my decks.
To change up the conversation a bit, as I think some of us have clearly confirmed our stances on pro or anti-Eldrazi on Innistrad, what are people's thoughts on the Gatewatch now showing up in full based on the trailer and several arts?
Personally, not a fan in the least. Liliana saving the day and even Jace being there, I'm okay with. I've surprisingly enjoyed semi-mad Jace. My issue is why were Gideon, Chandra and Nissa necessary for the storyline? Admittedly, we don't know the full story, but I don't get why the other walkers currently on-world aren't enough? If Liliana is going to be written as the last minute hero, why does it matter if it's only Jace and Tamiyo getting beat down by the new Eldrazi-horror of the plane vs Jace and the Gatewatch? Why did Sorin seemingly just bounce again as Jace described? Can he really still not be written with any sort of character development and maturity? I mean, I'm biased based off of the profile pic, but Arlinn Kord hasn't done a thing plot-relevant. She can't have a moment story-wise, a spotlight or something? Not seen in either trailer, and has one card with Flavor text on it attributed to her. Really?!? Her name literally translates from Gaelic as "oath." Seems like the kind of subtle hint you'd use in a character name to let fans know she'll be important to the plane and maybe even join the Gatewatch. But we have to go through at least another Gatewatch story or two likely before we see her do anything, if she even does.
*sigh* why must my love of wolves and werewolves always be punished by Wotc?
I absolutely hate the Gatewatch's arrival on Innistrad for exactly one reason: Their costumes haven't changed.
This was previously a time-honored tradition, where planeswalkers arriving on Innistrad got a major costume upgrade. This has happened three times before.
Garruk:
Liliana:
Jace:
See? Huge upgrade, each time. I kinda fell like, if you're gonna bring a character to Innistrad, and not give them a major costume upgrade, then what's the point in the first place, ya know?
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Vorthos Cartography - Check out my completed maps of Zendikar and Innistrad!
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
To change up the conversation a bit, as I think some of us have clearly confirmed our stances on pro or anti-Eldrazi on Innistrad, what are people's thoughts on the Gatewatch now showing up in full based on the trailer and several arts?
Personally, not a fan in the least. Liliana saving the day and even Jace being there, I'm okay with. I've surprisingly enjoyed semi-mad Jace. My issue is why were Gideon, Chandra and Nissa necessary for the storyline? Admittedly, we don't know the full story, but I don't get why the other walkers currently on-world aren't enough? If Liliana is going to be written as the last minute hero, why does it matter if it's only Jace and Tamiyo getting beat down by the new Eldrazi-horror of the plane vs Jace and the Gatewatch? Why did Sorin seemingly just bounce again as Jace described? Can he really still not be written with any sort of character development and maturity? I mean, I'm biased based off of the profile pic, but Arlinn Kord hasn't done a thing plot-relevant. She can't have a moment story-wise, a spotlight or something? Not seen in either trailer, and has one card with Flavor text on it attributed to her. Really?!? Her name literally translates from Gaelic as "oath." Seems like the kind of subtle hint you'd use in a character name to let fans know she'll be important to the plane and maybe even join the Gatewatch. But we have to go through at least another Gatewatch story or two likely before we see her do anything, if she even does.
*sigh* why must my love of wolves and werewolves always be punished by Wotc?
I absolutely hate the Gatewatch's arrival on Innistrad for exactly one reason: Their costumes haven't changed.
This was previously a time-honored tradition, where planeswalkers arriving on Innistrad got a major costume upgrade. This has happened three times before.
Garruk:
Liliana:
Jace:
See? Huge upgrade, each time. I kinda fell like, if you're gonna bring a character to Innistrad, and not give them a major costume upgrade, then what's the point in the first place, ya know?
Not that you're not right, friend, but uh....isn't Nahiri wearing the same thing, I ask now wondering why they didn't continue the trend with her either?
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Vorthos-player with way too much time on his hands and a love of thematic decks.
EDH - Yes, Each One is Named After a Song. I love tying music to my decks.
The angel hate at WOTC needs to stop. It's annoying and not justified. Angels are second to Dragons as most popular.
The story is being handled well unlike BFZ, but it is still annoying that Innistrad is being compromised, even if it does layer cosmic horror over gothic horror. Notice I said annoying, not bad.
It's fine if it occurs here in this story. It's understandable that it had to on Zendikar. But when Maro says peaceful returns which simply explore a loved plane without introducing catastrophic apocalypse each time like RTR are some special exception exclusive to Ravnica that can't work anywhere else, I will vehemently disagree. Theros should NOT feature a cataclysm when we return there, for example. There is no need for it. Greek mythology, Elspeth's own story, and the natural plane of Theros as a world of gods, monsters and heroes has enough material for a story and for interesting cards. Stop trashing loved planes and acting surprised to find those who loved it for what it was get upset that it's trashed. Why bother returning to a plane if it isn't even going to be what it was? The whole point of returning is consistency. Replicating what worked. Letting people enjoy what they did the first time, but in a new way. Catastrophically altering and changing what the plane was originally in the revisit after fans waited YEARS experiencing other planes in the hopes of reliving that prior experience is going to upset people to find it trashed, changed and entirely different. I don't want to return to Theros to experience its conflicts and its disasters. I want to return to THEROS. Not to the ruins of Theros. Not to Theros that now is no longer Theros. I want THEROS. I want Elspeth. I want Ajani. I want their story continued. I want to know what happened to Thassa after she lost her Bident. I want Krakens and Hydras and beautiful sunset scenes and idyllic coastal cities and Grecian-inspired beaches in Islands. That's what I freaking WANT. Oh and Arixmethes.
Maro and his excuse of every return needing to be a trashed world is infuriating and outrageous. Creative can do better - and it has. Godsend was a lovely way to have conflict without rending the plane while also telling a beautiful Greek tragedy story involving Elspeth, Daxos and Ajani. Switch things up, do some of that.
It does definitely feel like angels get thrashed more frequently than dragons. I kind of doubt in "Return to Dragons of Tarkir" that what happened to the angels will be anywhere near as bad, most likely just going to be resurrection of the old clans somehow, though I kind of question how they'll do that. I will say that it's definitely a feeling thing, and it's hard to tell how accurate that is overall, but fallen angels is a thing they like to throw in pretty consistently.
Also agree on the general thing about how they don't need to have such a drastic conflict in order to do a return. Zendikar is kind of arguable and Ravnica very clearly didn't, but the other returns pretty much have had really bad things happen. It's why I'm actually scared at the idea of a return to Kamigawa/Lorwyn, because we'd likely get Phyrexia/Eldrazi attacking. Didn't realize quite how bad it would be (wasn't playing during Scars as much), but I have zero desire to see that happen to anywhere that I'm interested in. Which might be the point of villains but you can make them scary without having to literally corrupt things.
But for others this is exactly what they wanted from the Eldrazi so I don't really see what Wizards could have done really. I do acknowledge that. I'd just rather have drastic shifts/conflicts more along the lines of internal planar drama as opposed to external stuff. Even if that ends badly it still feels a little better.
I think you and Jenrik are getting at the main problem with Wizard's storytelling, or rather, my problem with Wizards storytelling. They just simply don't do things in moderation. Don't just use some gothic horror tropes to build a new plane, use all of them! Don't just have a cosmic titan invade and warp a plane, mutate most of the population into tentacle-faced thralls! They are focusing on planeswalkers more and more, and that means they, in their minds, have to have comparable threats and conflicts. It's not good enough anymore to have a planeswalker solving planar problems, like with Ravnica or Theros, it has to be more encompassing than that. More drastic conflict of course means more drastic effects and changes, and inevitably, some of what makes the settings and characters so beloved in the first place gets lost in the shuffle. This isn't to say it's necessarily creative's "fault," it's just the way Wizards is doing things now.
And you know what? There's nothing objectively wrong with that. It's just Wizards doing what Wizards needs to do to continue making a dynamic, enjoyable product. Maybe s0me people like they way things are going. The numbers certainly show they do. I am just by no means obliged to treat it as the 100% greatest thing ever, and swallow my complaints because Wizards is finally listening to me, blah blah blah. They're not listening to me, or even to us, the Vorhtos. They're listening to the greater player-base, which obviously wants to pull the game in a direction I not a fan of. I'm also not criticizing using Emrakul as the big bad, that decision was done and made years ago. I'm not saying I hate Wizards, or that they are a terrible group of people etc. I'm just expressing my feelings here. I came here for the story, and who knows, maybe if they keep doing things I don't like, I'll drift back away form the game.
To those of you that are sick of hearing about "Wizards isn't doing what I want" or "I hate Wizards because they suck," I'm not going to apologize. This thread is the best place I can think of for expressing my feelings. I'm not hating Wizards, and I am definitely not hating on Eldritch Moon specifically. I'm venting some of my frustrations, and if you don't want to keep reading long pointless rants, then don't read them. My opinions are my own, and I'm not going to change them or shut up about them because you find them tedious.
I am hopeful that maybe we will have less inter planar threats now that the Eldrazi are hopefully wrapped up here. I'm alright with the story generally, but not been a fan of the current or last plane. If Kaladesh is as off putting as the rest I'll be surprised.
Not that you're not right, friend, but uh....isn't Nahiri wearing the same thing, I ask now wondering why they didn't continue the trend with her either?
Yes, she and Tamiyo have also broken this very respectable tradition. Nahiri obviously didn't have enough time to get a new outfit between Zendikar and the Helvault, but she's had a whole year since then. What gives? And Tamiyo, well, who knows? I guess we should count ourselves lucky to have anything from Kamigawa at all. In generall, it would seem it's the main characters that get upgrades, which still means the Gatewatch have a problem.
On a more semi-serious note, who here doesn't think Chandra would look awesome with a Badass Longcoat?
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Vorthos Cartography - Check out my completed maps of Zendikar and Innistrad!
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
The gatewatch aren't getting new wardrobes because Innistrad's clothiers were the first to be consumed by Emrakul. If that doesn't prove the Eldrazi are capable of deliberate malice, I don't know what would.
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I'm going to go against the grain and say I really like the gatewatch showing up. It's not because I'm desperate for the story to become all about them (and honestly I don't think it's going to; the tidbits we've seen so far suggest more that they're going to face a comeuppance and need Liliana and maybe others to save the day). I'm pleased because I'm glad they're avoiding the "Avengers Problem," where people on teams never get their friends to help, for narratively contrived reasons, even with the fate of the world at stake, just because this is an Iron Man movie so they don't want Thor and Captain America to be in it. If we're going to have a planeswalker super-team, then let's be consistent and when a dire planar threat turns up in one character's story, let's have them go round up the gang.
That doesn't mean I want the whole gatewatch to star in every story. I hope we get some lower-stakes conflicts that can plausibly involve just one or two planeswalkers, and I hope that when the whole team does show up they don't always equally share the spotlight (as I think will be the case here). But if characters actually call the gatewatch when an Eldrazi titan or Phyrexian invasion force shows up, I consider that a win for narrative logic.
Not that you're not right, friend, but uh....isn't Nahiri wearing the same thing, I ask now wondering why they didn't continue the trend with her either?
Yes, she and Tamiyo have also broken this very respectable tradition. Nahiri obviously didn't have enough time to get a new outfit between Zendikar and the Helvault, but she's had a whole year since then. What gives? And Tamiyo, well, who knows? I guess we should count ourselves lucky to have anything from Kamigawa at all. In generall, it would seem it's the main characters that get upgrades, which still means the Gatewatch have a problem.
On a more semi-serious note, who here doesn't think Chandra would look awesome with a Badass Longcoat?
Well one reason for the change is that Innistrad is very cold. It plays in the trope where it is always so cold you can see your breath as well a way to spot vampires since they don't feel the cold and can be more reveling in their fashions. So maybe Nahiri as a kor Nahiri doesn't feel the cold as much? I'm guess the cold never bothered Tamiyo, since Soratami live in the clouds.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
The gatewatch aren't getting new wardrobes because Innistrad's clothiers were the first to be consumed by Emrakul. If that doesn't prove the Eldrazi are capable of deliberate malice, I don't know what would.
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I'm going to go against the grain and say I really like the gatewatch showing up. It's not because I'm desperate for the story to become all about them (and honestly I don't think it's going to; the tidbits we've seen so far suggest more that they're going to face a comeuppance and need Liliana and maybe others to save the day). I'm pleased because I'm glad they're avoiding the "Avengers Problem," where people on teams never get their friends to help, for narratively contrived reasons, even with the fate of the world at stake, just because this is an Iron Man movie so they don't want Thor and Captain America to be in it. If we're going to have a planeswalker super-team, then let's be consistent and when a dire planar threat turns up in one character's story, let's have them go round up the gang.
That doesn't mean I want the whole gatewatch to star in every story. I hope we get some lower-stakes conflicts that can plausibly involve just one or two planeswalkers, and I hope that when the whole team does show up they don't always equally share the spotlight (as I think will be the case here). But if characters actually call the gatewatch when an Eldrazi titan or Phyrexian invasion force shows up, I consider that a win for narrative logic.
That is not a bad reasoning, but there is a problem of maintaining the theme. Gideon, Nissa and Chandra, as they currently are, are unfit for a storyline based on Innistrad. Gideon is a typical knight warrior character, made for battle in an army, and his past with the knights of Bant and the Boros Legion reinforces that. Gideon is not at all in theme with ghotic or cosmic horror (though he was a fine character for BFZ), and to improve that you would have to make him look more like Odric - maybe creating an arch where Gideon reveals a bit of his faith or uses a weapon other than his sural (which is extremely non-innistradian). He would basically need to become a Knight Templar or a Swashbuckler to fit more into the theme.
Nissa also is completely and utterly lost, and the primary reason for that was the poor character development she received after her retcon. With all her worry about Zendikar and its life forms I question her intentions on Innistrad and I don't see an animist as being a fit character for ghotic horror as well. Maybe you could have it done, but once again, more development would be needed and she would have to look like a Somberwald Sage: more like a druid in connection with shamanic powers than what she was in BFZ - which was a human version of the Swamp Thing from DC comics, basically.
And last but not least pyromancers are also out of theme. Chandra could maybe learn how to manipulate Geistflame or learn something from Kessig Forgemaster, I don't know. She would have to pass on a different kind of treatment.
I think it goes without saying that the Gatewatch, as cliche as the idea is, feels much more appropriate for the Zendikar setting, because original Zendikar was about a band of people with different skills working together like in an RPG. In ghotic horror Innistrad you need a better reason for that or else you're risking ruining the theme. Just saying that the presence of Emrakul suddenly trapped Jace on Innistrad forbidding him to planeswalk to contact the gatewatch would be a perfectly fine solution. It would probably increase the dimension of thing for him, because he would know that if he failed to save Innistrad he too would definitely die.
In any case, the cards that depict the Gatewatch already look completely out of Innistrad's theme to me, not sure if it is the same for everyone else.
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Would you like to read Commander stories? Check my latest stories, coming from Lorwyn and Innistrad: Ghoulcaller Gisa and Doran, The Siege Tower! If you like my writing, ask me to write something for your commander as well!
The gatewatch aren't getting new wardrobes because Innistrad's clothiers were the first to be consumed by Emrakul. If that doesn't prove the Eldrazi are capable of deliberate malice, I don't know what would.
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I'm going to go against the grain and say I really like the gatewatch showing up. It's not because I'm desperate for the story to become all about them (and honestly I don't think it's going to; the tidbits we've seen so far suggest more that they're going to face a comeuppance and need Liliana and maybe others to save the day). I'm pleased because I'm glad they're avoiding the "Avengers Problem," where people on teams never get their friends to help, for narratively contrived reasons, even with the fate of the world at stake, just because this is an Iron Man movie so they don't want Thor and Captain America to be in it. If we're going to have a planeswalker super-team, then let's be consistent and when a dire planar threat turns up in one character's story, let's have them go round up the gang.
That doesn't mean I want the whole gatewatch to star in every story. I hope we get some lower-stakes conflicts that can plausibly involve just one or two planeswalkers, and I hope that when the whole team does show up they don't always equally share the spotlight (as I think will be the case here). But if characters actually call the gatewatch when an Eldrazi titan or Phyrexian invasion force shows up, I consider that a win for narrative logic.
That is not a bad reasoning, but there is a problem of maintaining the theme. Gideon, Nissa and Chandra, as they currently are, are unfit for a storyline based on Innistrad. Gideon is a typical knight warrior character, made for battle in an army, and his past with the knights of Bant and the Boros Legion reinforces that. Gideon is not at all in theme with ghotic or cosmic horror (though he was a fine character for BFZ), and to improve that you would have to make him look more like Odric - maybe creating an arch where Gideon reveals a bit of his faith or uses a weapon other than his sural (which is extremely non-innistradian). He would basically need to become a Knight Templar or a Swashbuckler to fit more into the theme.
Nissa also is completely and utterly lost, and the primary reason for that was the poor character development she received after her retcon. With all her worry about Zendikar and its life forms I question her intentions on Innistrad and I don't see an animist as being a fit character for ghotic horror as well. Maybe you could have it done, but once again, more development would be needed and she would have to look like a Somberwald Sage: more like a druid in connection with shamanic powers than what she was in BFZ - which was a human version of the Swamp Thing from DC comics, basically.
And last but not least pyromancers are also out of theme. Chandra could maybe learn how to manipulate Geistflame or learn something from Kessig Forgemaster, I don't know. She would have to pass on a different kind of treatment.
I think it goes without saying that the Gatewatch, as cliche as the idea is, feels much more appropriate for the Zendikar setting, because original Zendikar was about a band of people with different skills working together like in an RPG. In ghotic horror Innistrad you need a better reason for that or else you're risking ruining the theme. Just saying that the presence of Emrakul suddenly trapped Jace on Innistrad forbidding him to planeswalk to contact the gatewatch would be a perfectly fine solution. It would probably increase the dimension of thing for him, because he would know that if he failed to save Innistrad he too would definitely die.
In any case, the cards that depict the Gatewatch already look completely out of Innistrad's theme to me, not sure if it is the same for everyone else.
I think I agree with all of that, and well-said.
I guess it doesn't really bother me because I'm expecting them to have a fairly minor role, showing up mostly to acknowledge that Jace would naturally go get them, then getting their asses kicked to underscore the seriousness of the situation. I'm expecting the gatewatch focus to stay on the more on-theme Jace, and for the advancement of the plot to come mostly from the interactions of Jace, Liliana, Sorin, and Nahiri, and maybe Arlinn, some legendary creatures, and/or Tamiyo (I'm sure she's not going to just abruptly disappear from the story, but I won't try to guess whether she still has a big part to play, or if she's going to be stepping to the background).
Honestly, if someone told me that the rest of the gatewatch's only on-card appearance is the single artwork of them getting overwhelmed by Emrakul, I wouldn't be too surprised.
The gatewatch aren't getting new wardrobes because Innistrad's clothiers were the first to be consumed by Emrakul. If that doesn't prove the Eldrazi are capable of deliberate malice, I don't know what would.
---
I'm going to go against the grain and say I really like the gatewatch showing up. It's not because I'm desperate for the story to become all about them (and honestly I don't think it's going to; the tidbits we've seen so far suggest more that they're going to face a comeuppance and need Liliana and maybe others to save the day). I'm pleased because I'm glad they're avoiding the "Avengers Problem," where people on teams never get their friends to help, for narratively contrived reasons, even with the fate of the world at stake, just because this is an Iron Man movie so they don't want Thor and Captain America to be in it. If we're going to have a planeswalker super-team, then let's be consistent and when a dire planar threat turns up in one character's story, let's have them go round up the gang.
That doesn't mean I want the whole gatewatch to star in every story. I hope we get some lower-stakes conflicts that can plausibly involve just one or two planeswalkers, and I hope that when the whole team does show up they don't always equally share the spotlight (as I think will be the case here). But if characters actually call the gatewatch when an Eldrazi titan or Phyrexian invasion force shows up, I consider that a win for narrative logic.
That is not a bad reasoning, but there is a problem of maintaining the theme. Gideon, Nissa and Chandra, as they currently are, are unfit for a storyline based on Innistrad. Gideon is a typical knight warrior character, made for battle in an army, and his past with the knights of Bant and the Boros Legion reinforces that. Gideon is not at all in theme with ghotic or cosmic horror (though he was a fine character for BFZ), and to improve that you would have to make him look more like Odric - maybe creating an arch where Gideon reveals a bit of his faith or uses a weapon other than his sural (which is extremely non-innistradian). He would basically need to become a Knight Templar or a Swashbuckler to fit more into the theme.
Nissa also is completely and utterly lost, and the primary reason for that was the poor character development she received after her retcon. With all her worry about Zendikar and its life forms I question her intentions on Innistrad and I don't see an animist as being a fit character for ghotic horror as well. Maybe you could have it done, but once again, more development would be needed and she would have to look like a Somberwald Sage: more like a druid in connection with shamanic powers than what she was in BFZ - which was a human version of the Swamp Thing from DC comics, basically.
And last but not least pyromancers are also out of theme. Chandra could maybe learn how to manipulate Geistflame or learn something from Kessig Forgemaster, I don't know. She would have to pass on a different kind of treatment.
I think it goes without saying that the Gatewatch, as cliche as the idea is, feels much more appropriate for the Zendikar setting, because original Zendikar was about a band of people with different skills working together like in an RPG. In ghotic horror Innistrad you need a better reason for that or else you're risking ruining the theme. Just saying that the presence of Emrakul suddenly trapped Jace on Innistrad forbidding him to planeswalk to contact the gatewatch would be a perfectly fine solution. It would probably increase the dimension of thing for him, because he would know that if he failed to save Innistrad he too would definitely die.
In any case, the cards that depict the Gatewatch already look completely out of Innistrad's theme to me, not sure if it is the same for everyone else.
I think I agree with all of that, and well-said.
I guess it doesn't really bother me because I'm expecting them to have a fairly minor role, showing up mostly to acknowledge that Jace would naturally go get them, then getting their asses kicked to underscore the seriousness of the situation. I'm expecting the gatewatch focus to stay on the more on-theme Jace, and for the advancement of the plot to come mostly from the interactions of Jace, Liliana, Sorin, and Nahiri, and maybe Arlinn, some legendary creatures, and/or Tamiyo (I'm sure she's not going to just abruptly disappear from the story, but I won't try to guess whether she still has a big part to play, or if she's going to be stepping to the background).
Honestly, if someone told me that the rest of the gatewatch's only on-card appearance is the single artwork of them getting overwhelmed by Emrakul, I wouldn't be too surprised.
I agree with you Dire Wombat with what I think most of the other gatewatches role would be, I really don't expect them to do much.
And @Ashiok that is gonna be an issue whereever the gatewatch goes. TBH I'm exited to see how people react to Nissa on worlds where there are no elves. I hop this storyline "humbles" the gatewatch as an idea (both in universe and with the fandom), since while they might be able to kill the other two titans, they can't beat everyone. Might also lead them to recruit other walkers, which would be nice "semi-one off stories" that tie into the greater story (walker fights off contained threat on a plane, meets and is helped by a gatewatch member(s) and then join up with them).
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The gatewatch aren't getting new wardrobes because Innistrad's clothiers were the first to be consumed by Emrakul. If that doesn't prove the Eldrazi are capable of deliberate malice, I don't know what would.
---
I'm going to go against the grain and say I really like the gatewatch showing up. It's not because I'm desperate for the story to become all about them (and honestly I don't think it's going to; the tidbits we've seen so far suggest more that they're going to face a comeuppance and need Liliana and maybe others to save the day). I'm pleased because I'm glad they're avoiding the "Avengers Problem," where people on teams never get their friends to help, for narratively contrived reasons, even with the fate of the world at stake, just because this is an Iron Man movie so they don't want Thor and Captain America to be in it. If we're going to have a planeswalker super-team, then let's be consistent and when a dire planar threat turns up in one character's story, let's have them go round up the gang.
That doesn't mean I want the whole gatewatch to star in every story. I hope we get some lower-stakes conflicts that can plausibly involve just one or two planeswalkers, and I hope that when the whole team does show up they don't always equally share the spotlight (as I think will be the case here). But if characters actually call the gatewatch when an Eldrazi titan or Phyrexian invasion force shows up, I consider that a win for narrative logic.
That is not a bad reasoning, but there is a problem of maintaining the theme. Gideon, Nissa and Chandra, as they currently are, are unfit for a storyline based on Innistrad. Gideon is a typical knight warrior character, made for battle in an army, and his past with the knights of Bant and the Boros Legion reinforces that. Gideon is not at all in theme with ghotic or cosmic horror (though he was a fine character for BFZ), and to improve that you would have to make him look more like Odric - maybe creating an arch where Gideon reveals a bit of his faith or uses a weapon other than his sural (which is extremely non-innistradian). He would basically need to become a Knight Templar or a Swashbuckler to fit more into the theme.
Nissa also is completely and utterly lost, and the primary reason for that was the poor character development she received after her retcon. With all her worry about Zendikar and its life forms I question her intentions on Innistrad and I don't see an animist as being a fit character for ghotic horror as well. Maybe you could have it done, but once again, more development would be needed and she would have to look like a Somberwald Sage: more like a druid in connection with shamanic powers than what she was in BFZ - which was a human version of the Swamp Thing from DC comics, basically.
And last but not least pyromancers are also out of theme. Chandra could maybe learn how to manipulate Geistflame or learn something from Kessig Forgemaster, I don't know. She would have to pass on a different kind of treatment.
I think it goes without saying that the Gatewatch, as cliche as the idea is, feels much more appropriate for the Zendikar setting, because original Zendikar was about a band of people with different skills working together like in an RPG. In ghotic horror Innistrad you need a better reason for that or else you're risking ruining the theme. Just saying that the presence of Emrakul suddenly trapped Jace on Innistrad forbidding him to planeswalk to contact the gatewatch would be a perfectly fine solution. It would probably increase the dimension of thing for him, because he would know that if he failed to save Innistrad he too would definitely die.
In any case, the cards that depict the Gatewatch already look completely out of Innistrad's theme to me, not sure if it is the same for everyone else.
This is quite on point as to why the Gatewatch should have been designed new costumes. Most planeswalkers have a pretty versatile appearance. Jace, in his normal costume, can blend in on Vyrn, Ravnica, Zendikar, and a lot of other places as well. Innistrad, on the other hand, has a fairly distinct visual style. Garruk, Liliana, and Jace all got new costumes because their existing ones didn't really match. Tamiyo and Nahiri's costumes are a bit of a stretch, but they still look okay next to everything else. A hippie elf animist, a glittering Greek paladin, and a walking steampunk inferno, on the other hand, stick out like sore thumbs. Designing them new outfits would have gone a long way towards integrating them more into the Innistrad. I imagine an eclectic band consisting of a pulp detective, a knight, a shaman, and a geistmage wouldn't look as out of place as a telepath, a paladin, an anamist, and a pyromancer.
On the larger scale though, summoning the Gatewatch to fight Emrakul makes a lot of sense, with the whole Avengers syndrome thing. So yeah, there's that.
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Vorthos Cartography - Check out my completed maps of Zendikar and Innistrad!
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
I feel like there are criticisms that are valid. The Emrakul reveal was kind of bad. Emrakul was pulled up as the most obvious answer. The mystery almost wasn't a mystery, to the point where I at least was thinking it couldn't be Emrakul because what good mystery has the person standing right in front of you be the bad guy? I get that this mystery probably wasn't for the enfranchised but the casual story watchers who maybe picked up on one or two clues, rather than all of them, but I still feel like they dropped the ball, and could have thrown in some red herrings and made it more of a compelling mystery. Especially considering that Innistrad has a really rich history an all sorts of things that could have been big and scary and madness-inducing. (However, even though I was wrong about that, I am please with the first 15% of the set, I just wish the mystery was more of a mystery.)
I have to push back against this complaint, its a recurring one, and I don't think this has proper perspective. If I was very interested in the story, and interested in the mystery, and if I was determined to try to figure it out..... but I do not post on this or other magic message boards, and just looked at cards and read daily MTG, I do not think I could have solved the mystery. There's no way in hell I could have solved the Tamiyo's journal puzzle myself or even with a couple friends. All the evidence people noticed on the art, I probably would have missed most of it. Maybe I would have seen a tentacle here, some lattice there, and Emrakul would be on my list of suspects, but I would probably not know for sure, and would have been satisfied with the reveal.
You think the mystery was too easy and the reveal too obvious, because like me, you are a part of this massive hive-mind of intelligent people who care about the story and mystery. We all look for clues, pour over the art, re-read stories, and come back here to report what we found and discussed theories. Implausible theories are quickly discarded, we go back out and do more research, etc.
If THAT group could not confidently solve the mystery, then its not really a mystery. The reveal would have been a stupid non-sequitur, and the purported clues after the reveal would have been so lame and obscure (again if we couldn't find them), that it would have just been annoying and frustrating. A good mystery should be solvable by a team of hundreds or thousands of smart people all reading the same story. The next time Magic has a mystery and you want to be surprised, you should probably leave all Magic boards for a few months until the reveal.
Ulamog have a red style (agressive) represents the savage/swarming alien theme
Kozilek have a blue style (manipulator) represents the control/intelligent alien theme
And Emrakul have a green style(proliferate) represents the infectious/horror alien theme
I don't known more alien themes, and in real life light have only 3 primal colors: red, blue and green, so in essence, the eldrazi that are native from blind eternities, are cosmic creatures of light and ether.
Gideon, Nissa and Chandra, as they currently are, are unfit for a storyline based on Innistrad.
But... they're planeswalkers... Being out of place is kind of their thing.
Generally my thought on it too. Part of the point of Planeswalkers is they stand out, they aren't the status quo. I like when they try and mesh a bit, but even when they do they should still feel other. Tamiyo is a good example of this too, doesn't feel or look like a normal Innistrad person.
That and as others said changing costume to face Emrakul is kind of out of place, as would be not getting them. Guess they could have trapped Jace there but that would have only more explicitly said Emrakul loses, at least there is arguably more of a chance that she leaves as opposed to being sealed/killed.
Aren't the Gatewatch literally in the middle of the Zendikar relief effort still when Jace presumably goes to get them?
I also disagree that a block's planeswalkers should match the theme. Kinda the point of planeswalkers really. So I think that's fine when Planeswalkers stick out. The rest of the plane is in-theme anyway.
That said, totally don't see a reason why there couldn't be costume detail changes. They wanna make the superhero connection with the Gatewatch so bad, superheroes get costume updates whenever they switch flagships.
Lastly, I'm loving Emrakul on Innistrad. BFZ definitely caused some trauma, but I'm trying to forget about it.
As much as I'd like to see the Gothic versions of all the gatewatch's outfits, Innistrad seems to be mid-apocalypse at the moment. Where would they even get local fashions right now?
I have to say, the negativity is kind of overwhelming in this forum as of late, I understand the Eldrazi fatigue (which is the only criticism I would probably agree with although I don't feel it, Wizards could have given it a bit more time... though judging from other peoples posts here there are many who wouldn't be happy with Eldrazi at any time) and the dislike some people have for the concept of the Gatewatch. Even the strange hate on Wizards for their supposed angel killing I can somewhat understand (but really, it's not as big a deal as people make it out to be, as far as I know dragons (all dragons on Tarkir before the time travel), hydras (Polukranos), demons (Griselbrand) and sphinxes (Alhammarret) die all the time too, they are just not as often legendary creatures). But it irritates me that those dislikes are then presented as objective arguments for a supposed failure of the set, which they simply aren't.
I myself really love the whole SOI block because it did Eldrazi, Innistrad and the combination of cosmic and gothic horror (all of which I like as concepts) right after an admittedly disappointing reentry for the Eldrazi in BFZ. I would have been severely disappointed with a non sequitor solution to SOI like some random Stormkirk or moon god and I'm pretty sure that most people would have been if that was the reveal after all the foreshadowing. I know I will not change many minds around here, which is why I would just like to know if there is someone here who likes the direction the story has taken and this block as a whole as much as I do.
Don't most planeswalkers "blend into a plane" because they don't want to be noticed (and possibly hated out) by the plane's residents even if they're vastly more powerful than said residents?
With Emrakul entering the fray and introducing the new and recognizable fashion'rakul style for Innistrad, I don't think Innistrad's residents would particularly single out and hate on a Bant/Boros Knight, a steampunk pyromancer and an elf. Paranoid Hanweir might, but since it's actually part of the fashion'rakul squad itself...
Jace bothered because he consciously wanted to blend in SOI. Liliana has always fit Innistrad's Gothic style. As for Garruk... I think he did that (when he was still half-sane) because honestly that makes hunting easier (it was more of blending into the surroundings literally like "camouflage"), not that it helped against Liliana, of course.
Tamiyo has never cared (which fits the cold, haughtier personality of Soratami in general), neither does Nahiri (why would she?). Sorin and Tibalt were from the plane, so they don't count.
As for the 'oh, Innistrad had exhausted all the gothic horror tropes - they had to do something else' argument, it's bull*****. You know, it's ok to keep a setting consistent and tell a compelling story within that setting without having to utterly change everything just for a bit of novelty value. Innistrad was a neat traditional Victorian-gothic setting; now it doesn't seem to be so much. It's ok that some of us aren't too happy about that.
That sort of gets to the core of why MaRo is a bad writer, though. His approach is always "Okay, lets throw all the tropes in and move on, no need to explore anything." It's part of why I think a lot of planes have missed on the flavor: We get a brief tour of what every color does, a thin plot tacked on, and then move. We don't have anything like we had in the old days where there was an actual coherent struggle.
I think this is especially becoming an issue as we have plane after plane turn into "Two factions battle for dominance." I miss the days where there were actually multiple groups with multiple conflicting goals, even within the same color, instead of just sort of surface level stuff.
No one plays a specific magic set because they want to see a list of tropes in magic card form. They play because they like the theme. Innstrad could have gotten six more blocks out of Avacyn slowly sliding into madness, the rise of the Lunarch Inquisition, the cults and the demons, and the rise of Nahiri's Eldrazi cult.
I give them props for not dragging the story out for a decade (since we would never spend six years on Innstrad) but lets not pretend they were running out of content on the plane. Hell, they could have made multiple blocks just with the plot threads they threw out and then completely abandoned in SoI: The Black/White Angel Flight, the Green Vampires, the Sea Gods, the Cults.
Bingo. A writer worth their salt simply writes what they enjoy and lets the consumers apply, or chose not to apply, tropes. Some of the elements you mention from SoI could be use in EMN to keep this story from being a drawn out battle.
Black/White Angel Flight - Horror-Cult operatives remind the people of Innistrad that many angels they believed to be incorruptible had turned on them. In doing so, we get to see Liliana react to the spread of these Horror-Cults and, in order to get a shot at some of the big beasties these Cults worship, lends her undead forces to the humans that take the Cults' messages to heart and rise up against the Black/White Angel flight. We could see the Black/White flight dealing with an internal schism between those that want to fight back against the humans and those that would rather seek a nonviolent resolution. In the end, Liliana and her Cult allies would prove successful in helping the frightened humans exterminate the Black/White Flight.
Sea Gods/Cults - Again, Horror-Cults that see the tides turning against the Avacyn Church thanks to the mad angels and the Lunarch Inquisition. They begin going out among the humans, encouraging them to take up arms against those showing signs of Emrakul's touch - and offering these as sacrifice to their Horror-Creatures; the Black/White Flight could also be among the offerings to the Horror-Creatures. Ultimately, it is these Cults that rise to take the place of the Church as the primary force of organized religion on Innistrad, working to defend the people against Emrakul's minions.
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Whether Innistrad will stay true to its original feel or not is up in the air at this point. Whether EMN is good or not is irrelevant because Vorthos is most concerned now with the general mood and tone of the plane after this story resolves. Zendikar now has swaths destroyed and two entire continents gone with a severely dwindled population. It's a post-apocalypse world now, so justifying it as Adventure World after it was royally wrecked and people were killed is a reach. The spirit of a vast lush world of treasures and treasure hunters feels awkward after what transpired there. Stranger still would be the prospect of its tiny populace picking up after a planar threat and thinking "I think I'll go out now and look for gold!" One could argue it's a survival tactic and make any number of excuses for it, but frankly, the spirit of the plane feels broken to me. And that's not what I want to happen to Innistrad (I don't suspect it will, so far, but one can' be blamed after BFZ for being apprehensive). And least of all, I don't ever want this to happen to a plane like Theros, which like original Zendikar, holds a lot of promise and popularity independent of the crutch storytelling and cheap thrills being employed repetitively in lieu of a proper collection of lore.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I think you and Jenrik are getting at the main problem with Wizard's storytelling, or rather, my problem with Wizards storytelling. They just simply don't do things in moderation. Don't just use some gothic horror tropes to build a new plane, use all of them! Don't just have a cosmic titan invade and warp a plane, mutate most of the population into tentacle-faced thralls! They are focusing on planeswalkers more and more, and that means they, in their minds, have to have comparable threats and conflicts. It's not good enough anymore to have a planeswalker solving planar problems, like with Ravnica or Theros, it has to be more encompassing than that. More drastic conflict of course means more drastic effects and changes, and inevitably, some of what makes the settings and characters so beloved in the first place gets lost in the shuffle. This isn't to say it's necessarily creative's "fault," it's just the way Wizards is doing things now.
And you know what? There's nothing objectively wrong with that. It's just Wizards doing what Wizards needs to do to continue making a dynamic, enjoyable product. Maybe s0me people like they way things are going. The numbers certainly show they do. I am just by no means obliged to treat it as the 100% greatest thing ever, and swallow my complaints because Wizards is finally listening to me, blah blah blah. They're not listening to me, or even to us, the Vorhtos. They're listening to the greater player-base, which obviously wants to pull the game in a direction I not a fan of. I'm also not criticizing using Emrakul as the big bad, that decision was done and made years ago. I'm not saying I hate Wizards, or that they are a terrible group of people etc. I'm just expressing my feelings here. I came here for the story, and who knows, maybe if they keep doing things I don't like, I'll drift back away form the game.
To those of you that are sick of hearing about "Wizards isn't doing what I want" or "I hate Wizards because they suck," I'm not going to apologize. This thread is the best place I can think of for expressing my feelings. I'm not hating Wizards, and I am definitely not hating on Eldritch Moon specifically. I'm venting some of my frustrations, and if you don't want to keep reading long pointless rants, then don't read them. My opinions are my own, and I'm not going to change them or shut up about them because you find them tedious.
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
From what they said in Liliana's Indignation, it would seem that her scars/tattoos only come out when she is using particularly strong doses of magic. This effect would naturally be amplified by the Chain-Veil, but apparently raising a single ghoul or summoning a ball of purple fire aren't above the threshold for glowing.
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
Personally, not a fan in the least. Liliana saving the day and even Jace being there, I'm okay with. I've surprisingly enjoyed semi-mad Jace. My issue is why were Gideon, Chandra and Nissa necessary for the storyline? Admittedly, we don't know the full story, but I don't get why the other walkers currently on-world aren't enough? If Liliana is going to be written as the last minute hero, why does it matter if it's only Jace and Tamiyo getting beat down by the new Eldrazi-horror of the plane vs Jace and the Gatewatch? Why did Sorin seemingly just bounce again as Jace described? Can he really still not be written with any sort of character development and maturity? I mean, I'm biased based off of the profile pic, but Arlinn Kord hasn't done a thing plot-relevant. She can't have a moment story-wise, a spotlight or something? Not seen in either trailer, and has one card with Flavor text on it attributed to her. Really?!? Her name literally translates from Gaelic as "oath." Seems like the kind of subtle hint you'd use in a character name to let fans know she'll be important to the plane and maybe even join the Gatewatch. But we have to go through at least another Gatewatch story or two likely before we see her do anything, if she even does.
*sigh* why must my love of wolves and werewolves always be punished by Wotc?
EDH - Yes, Each One is Named After a Song. I love tying music to my decks.
B Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief B - Fear of the Dark
WG Sigarda, Heron's Grace WG - Strength in Numbers
RG Xenagos, God of Revels RG - Fullmoon (It's werewolves)
RW Archangel Avacyn // Avacyn, the Purifier RW - The End is Nigh
60 Card Kitchen Table Decks
WUB Avacyn, Spirit Ferrier
RG Arlinn Kord's Howlpack
I absolutely hate the Gatewatch's arrival on Innistrad for exactly one reason: Their costumes haven't changed.
This was previously a time-honored tradition, where planeswalkers arriving on Innistrad got a major costume upgrade. This has happened three times before.
Garruk:
Liliana:
Jace:
See? Huge upgrade, each time. I kinda fell like, if you're gonna bring a character to Innistrad, and not give them a major costume upgrade, then what's the point in the first place, ya know?
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
Not that you're not right, friend, but uh....isn't Nahiri wearing the same thing, I ask now wondering why they didn't continue the trend with her either?
EDH - Yes, Each One is Named After a Song. I love tying music to my decks.
B Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief B - Fear of the Dark
WG Sigarda, Heron's Grace WG - Strength in Numbers
RG Xenagos, God of Revels RG - Fullmoon (It's werewolves)
RW Archangel Avacyn // Avacyn, the Purifier RW - The End is Nigh
60 Card Kitchen Table Decks
WUB Avacyn, Spirit Ferrier
RG Arlinn Kord's Howlpack
I am hopeful that maybe we will have less inter planar threats now that the Eldrazi are hopefully wrapped up here. I'm alright with the story generally, but not been a fan of the current or last plane. If Kaladesh is as off putting as the rest I'll be surprised.
Yes, she and Tamiyo have also broken this very respectable tradition. Nahiri obviously didn't have enough time to get a new outfit between Zendikar and the Helvault, but she's had a whole year since then. What gives? And Tamiyo, well, who knows? I guess we should count ourselves lucky to have anything from Kamigawa at all. In generall, it would seem it's the main characters that get upgrades, which still means the Gatewatch have a problem.
On a more semi-serious note, who here doesn't think Chandra would look awesome with a Badass Longcoat?
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
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I'm going to go against the grain and say I really like the gatewatch showing up. It's not because I'm desperate for the story to become all about them (and honestly I don't think it's going to; the tidbits we've seen so far suggest more that they're going to face a comeuppance and need Liliana and maybe others to save the day). I'm pleased because I'm glad they're avoiding the "Avengers Problem," where people on teams never get their friends to help, for narratively contrived reasons, even with the fate of the world at stake, just because this is an Iron Man movie so they don't want Thor and Captain America to be in it. If we're going to have a planeswalker super-team, then let's be consistent and when a dire planar threat turns up in one character's story, let's have them go round up the gang.
That doesn't mean I want the whole gatewatch to star in every story. I hope we get some lower-stakes conflicts that can plausibly involve just one or two planeswalkers, and I hope that when the whole team does show up they don't always equally share the spotlight (as I think will be the case here). But if characters actually call the gatewatch when an Eldrazi titan or Phyrexian invasion force shows up, I consider that a win for narrative logic.
Well one reason for the change is that Innistrad is very cold. It plays in the trope where it is always so cold you can see your breath as well a way to spot vampires since they don't feel the cold and can be more reveling in their fashions. So maybe Nahiri as a kor Nahiri doesn't feel the cold as much? I'm guess the cold never bothered Tamiyo, since Soratami live in the clouds.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Nissa also is completely and utterly lost, and the primary reason for that was the poor character development she received after her retcon. With all her worry about Zendikar and its life forms I question her intentions on Innistrad and I don't see an animist as being a fit character for ghotic horror as well. Maybe you could have it done, but once again, more development would be needed and she would have to look like a Somberwald Sage: more like a druid in connection with shamanic powers than what she was in BFZ - which was a human version of the Swamp Thing from DC comics, basically.
And last but not least pyromancers are also out of theme. Chandra could maybe learn how to manipulate Geistflame or learn something from Kessig Forgemaster, I don't know. She would have to pass on a different kind of treatment.
I think it goes without saying that the Gatewatch, as cliche as the idea is, feels much more appropriate for the Zendikar setting, because original Zendikar was about a band of people with different skills working together like in an RPG. In ghotic horror Innistrad you need a better reason for that or else you're risking ruining the theme. Just saying that the presence of Emrakul suddenly trapped Jace on Innistrad forbidding him to planeswalk to contact the gatewatch would be a perfectly fine solution. It would probably increase the dimension of thing for him, because he would know that if he failed to save Innistrad he too would definitely die.
In any case, the cards that depict the Gatewatch already look completely out of Innistrad's theme to me, not sure if it is the same for everyone else.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
I guess it doesn't really bother me because I'm expecting them to have a fairly minor role, showing up mostly to acknowledge that Jace would naturally go get them, then getting their asses kicked to underscore the seriousness of the situation. I'm expecting the gatewatch focus to stay on the more on-theme Jace, and for the advancement of the plot to come mostly from the interactions of Jace, Liliana, Sorin, and Nahiri, and maybe Arlinn, some legendary creatures, and/or Tamiyo (I'm sure she's not going to just abruptly disappear from the story, but I won't try to guess whether she still has a big part to play, or if she's going to be stepping to the background).
Honestly, if someone told me that the rest of the gatewatch's only on-card appearance is the single artwork of them getting overwhelmed by Emrakul, I wouldn't be too surprised.
But... they're planeswalkers... Being out of place is kind of their thing.
Muhahaha my plan is working
I agree with you Dire Wombat with what I think most of the other gatewatches role would be, I really don't expect them to do much.
And @Ashiok that is gonna be an issue whereever the gatewatch goes. TBH I'm exited to see how people react to Nissa on worlds where there are no elves. I hop this storyline "humbles" the gatewatch as an idea (both in universe and with the fandom), since while they might be able to kill the other two titans, they can't beat everyone. Might also lead them to recruit other walkers, which would be nice "semi-one off stories" that tie into the greater story (walker fights off contained threat on a plane, meets and is helped by a gatewatch member(s) and then join up with them).
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
This is quite on point as to why the Gatewatch should have been designed new costumes. Most planeswalkers have a pretty versatile appearance. Jace, in his normal costume, can blend in on Vyrn, Ravnica, Zendikar, and a lot of other places as well. Innistrad, on the other hand, has a fairly distinct visual style. Garruk, Liliana, and Jace all got new costumes because their existing ones didn't really match. Tamiyo and Nahiri's costumes are a bit of a stretch, but they still look okay next to everything else. A hippie elf animist, a glittering Greek paladin, and a walking steampunk inferno, on the other hand, stick out like sore thumbs. Designing them new outfits would have gone a long way towards integrating them more into the Innistrad. I imagine an eclectic band consisting of a pulp detective, a knight, a shaman, and a geistmage wouldn't look as out of place as a telepath, a paladin, an anamist, and a pyromancer.
On the larger scale though, summoning the Gatewatch to fight Emrakul makes a lot of sense, with the whole Avengers syndrome thing. So yeah, there's that.
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
I have to push back against this complaint, its a recurring one, and I don't think this has proper perspective. If I was very interested in the story, and interested in the mystery, and if I was determined to try to figure it out..... but I do not post on this or other magic message boards, and just looked at cards and read daily MTG, I do not think I could have solved the mystery. There's no way in hell I could have solved the Tamiyo's journal puzzle myself or even with a couple friends. All the evidence people noticed on the art, I probably would have missed most of it. Maybe I would have seen a tentacle here, some lattice there, and Emrakul would be on my list of suspects, but I would probably not know for sure, and would have been satisfied with the reveal.
You think the mystery was too easy and the reveal too obvious, because like me, you are a part of this massive hive-mind of intelligent people who care about the story and mystery. We all look for clues, pour over the art, re-read stories, and come back here to report what we found and discussed theories. Implausible theories are quickly discarded, we go back out and do more research, etc.
If THAT group could not confidently solve the mystery, then its not really a mystery. The reveal would have been a stupid non-sequitur, and the purported clues after the reveal would have been so lame and obscure (again if we couldn't find them), that it would have just been annoying and frustrating. A good mystery should be solvable by a team of hundreds or thousands of smart people all reading the same story. The next time Magic has a mystery and you want to be surprised, you should probably leave all Magic boards for a few months until the reveal.
Ulamog have a red style (agressive) represents the savage/swarming alien theme
Kozilek have a blue style (manipulator) represents the control/intelligent alien theme
And Emrakul have a green style(proliferate) represents the infectious/horror alien theme
I don't known more alien themes, and in real life light have only 3 primal colors: red, blue and green, so in essence, the eldrazi that are native from blind eternities, are cosmic creatures of light and ether.
Possibly, there are only three types of eldrazi.
Generally my thought on it too. Part of the point of Planeswalkers is they stand out, they aren't the status quo. I like when they try and mesh a bit, but even when they do they should still feel other. Tamiyo is a good example of this too, doesn't feel or look like a normal Innistrad person.
That and as others said changing costume to face Emrakul is kind of out of place, as would be not getting them. Guess they could have trapped Jace there but that would have only more explicitly said Emrakul loses, at least there is arguably more of a chance that she leaves as opposed to being sealed/killed.
I also disagree that a block's planeswalkers should match the theme. Kinda the point of planeswalkers really. So I think that's fine when Planeswalkers stick out. The rest of the plane is in-theme anyway.
That said, totally don't see a reason why there couldn't be costume detail changes. They wanna make the superhero connection with the Gatewatch so bad, superheroes get costume updates whenever they switch flagships.
Lastly, I'm loving Emrakul on Innistrad. BFZ definitely caused some trauma, but I'm trying to forget about it.
I myself really love the whole SOI block because it did Eldrazi, Innistrad and the combination of cosmic and gothic horror (all of which I like as concepts) right after an admittedly disappointing reentry for the Eldrazi in BFZ. I would have been severely disappointed with a non sequitor solution to SOI like some random Stormkirk or moon god and I'm pretty sure that most people would have been if that was the reveal after all the foreshadowing. I know I will not change many minds around here, which is why I would just like to know if there is someone here who likes the direction the story has taken and this block as a whole as much as I do.
With Emrakul entering the fray and introducing the new and recognizable fashion'rakul style for Innistrad, I don't think Innistrad's residents would particularly single out and hate on a Bant/Boros Knight, a steampunk pyromancer and an elf. Paranoid Hanweir might, but since it's actually part of the fashion'rakul squad itself...
Jace bothered because he consciously wanted to blend in SOI. Liliana has always fit Innistrad's Gothic style. As for Garruk... I think he did that (when he was still half-sane) because honestly that makes hunting easier (it was more of blending into the surroundings literally like "camouflage"), not that it helped against Liliana, of course.
Tamiyo has never cared (which fits the cold, haughtier personality of Soratami in general), neither does Nahiri (why would she?). Sorin and Tibalt were from the plane, so they don't count.
Bingo. A writer worth their salt simply writes what they enjoy and lets the consumers apply, or chose not to apply, tropes. Some of the elements you mention from SoI could be use in EMN to keep this story from being a drawn out battle.
Black/White Angel Flight - Horror-Cult operatives remind the people of Innistrad that many angels they believed to be incorruptible had turned on them. In doing so, we get to see Liliana react to the spread of these Horror-Cults and, in order to get a shot at some of the big beasties these Cults worship, lends her undead forces to the humans that take the Cults' messages to heart and rise up against the Black/White Angel flight. We could see the Black/White flight dealing with an internal schism between those that want to fight back against the humans and those that would rather seek a nonviolent resolution. In the end, Liliana and her Cult allies would prove successful in helping the frightened humans exterminate the Black/White Flight.
Sea Gods/Cults - Again, Horror-Cults that see the tides turning against the Avacyn Church thanks to the mad angels and the Lunarch Inquisition. They begin going out among the humans, encouraging them to take up arms against those showing signs of Emrakul's touch - and offering these as sacrifice to their Horror-Creatures; the Black/White Flight could also be among the offerings to the Horror-Creatures. Ultimately, it is these Cults that rise to take the place of the Church as the primary force of organized religion on Innistrad, working to defend the people against Emrakul's minions.