Also, we need some more stories detailing the fall into "Emrakulness", and if it's about Bruna and Gisela, it would be damn awesome.
Did he ever even try that with the Eldrazi on Zendikar?
Well, it apparently didn't go very well with Emrakul, just one question from miles away and she tried to chew on his mind harder, showing also that she's got some intellect. Maybe with Ulamog it would have been useless, as he barely seemed to think into another thing than just eating, perhaps his thoughts would've been mostly "IHUNGERIHUNGERIHUNGER..."; with Kozilek, I doubt Jace could even have managed to concentrate enough, as in the UR article detailing him it was told that just looking at him would cause you a "sharp, puncturing pain", it's also shown in that article that Kozilek was actually intelligent and REALLY sadistic (In the forked timeline Tazri witnessed Kozilek kept killing the Gatewatch for months if I recollect).
Also, it would've been INCREDIBLY dangerous, as it would have reveal Jace's position to the Eldrazi titans.
...Taking things that are already there and warping and tweaking them until she gets something she likes...
Void Attendant should have been a spawn of Emrakul instead of Ulamog; I know, I know, the processor mechanic was exclusive for Ulamog, but think about it, the flavor is just there, you kill and exile oppossing stuff, and then create new Scions from it, a rather convoluted way in the mechanical sense but the flavor fits right there: The Eldrazi replacing stuff with them.
Did he ever even try that with the Eldrazi on Zendikar?
Well, it apparently didn't go very well with Emrakul, just one question from miles away and she tried to chew on his mind harder, showing also that she's got some intellect. Maybe with Ulamog it would have been useless, as he barely seemed to think into another thing than just eating, perhaps his thoughts would've been mostly "IHUNGERIHUNGERIHUNGER..."; with Kozilek, I doubt Jace could even have managed to concentrate enough, as in the UR article detailing him it was told that just looking at him would cause you a "sharp, puncturing pain", it's also shown in that article that Kozilek was actually intelligent and REALLY sadistic (In the forked timeline Tazri witnessed Kozilek kept killing the Gatewatch for months if I recollect).
Also, it would've been INCREDIBLY dangerous, as it would have reveal Jace's position to the Eldrazi titans.
It just feels like kind of a retcon, the Eldrazi were supposed to be totally foreign and alien and not even really sentient as we understand it, now all of the sudden Emrakul speaks English and has a mind?
Did he ever even try that with the Eldrazi on Zendikar?
Well, it apparently didn't go very well with Emrakul, just one question from miles away and she tried to chew on his mind harder, showing also that she's got some intellect. Maybe with Ulamog it would have been useless, as he barely seemed to think into another thing than just eating, perhaps his thoughts would've been mostly "IHUNGERIHUNGERIHUNGER..."; with Kozilek, I doubt Jace could even have managed to concentrate enough, as in the UR article detailing him it was told that just looking at him would cause you a "sharp, puncturing pain", it's also shown in that article that Kozilek was actually intelligent and REALLY sadistic (In the forked timeline Tazri witnessed Kozilek kept killing the Gatewatch for months if I recollect).
Also, it would've been INCREDIBLY dangerous, as it would have reveal Jace's position to the Eldrazi titans.
It just feels like kind of a retcon, the Eldrazi were supposed to be totally foreign and alien and not even really sentient as we understand it, now all of the sudden Emrakul speaks English and has a mind?
Well, theoretically, do enough assimilation of these planes and their people, and you probably pick up a few things.
Yes, it was a retcon, before, the Eldrazi just dissolved everything to dust, now thay had a different set of abilities, which was far better in the flavor and gameplay sense.
...now all of the sudden Emrakul speaks English and has a mind?
Well, it was never said that they did not have a mind, Emrakul is still following the old Eldrazi axiom: Assimilate everything, which places her closer to Ulamog, while Kozilek was just killing and destroying for fun; also, I have thought that telepathy is a way to "break the language barrier", because the words are usually associated to a meaning given in one's mind, when you talk, you're thinking in the meaning of the words you're saying, and telepathy is listening (or sensing) those ideas rather than the spoken words. In Starcraft, there is the Protoss race, which lack mouths or means of conventional communication, so they use telepathy instead, they can "talk" with humans and are able to understand what they say, because of what I mentioned before, the thing about thinking in the meaning of the words while you speak them.
In the case of Emrakul, her ideas were projected into Jace's mind, because she could sense Jace's intent when he gazed at her and questioned about her name.
Well it also has to do with the fact that everyone speaks English. I mean do you really think that every plane everywhere doesn't have their own language? You can look at it as plot convinience, you can look at it as the spark acts as a translator for walkers, whatever. It's just a thing. Less of Emmy speaking English as it is Jace hears her influence in English. It's not even that she's speaking words it's just the way Jace is experiencing touching the mind of an Eldrazi. It's the same way that when Tazri experienced Kozileks twisting effect and said he was laughing but it wasn't him laughing but how she experienced it.
While I dislike having eldrazi on Innistrad, since it's happening I really hope emrakul kills or mutates a planeswalker/s. The gate watch needs to be vulnerable and or learn to fear... If they just go around dispatching without any fear or sacrifices... Just kinda sucks.. This is where I applaud Theros and what happened on Phyrexia..... They just can't win all the time. Also I can't wait for Elspeths next story...
The Eldrazi titans have always been established as intelligent and mindful. They are extra-planar beings to which all planar matters seem petty. See Oracle of Dust, Origin theories on Marit Lage, and source materials of the Eldritch in general. As for the gatewatch, I don't know where everyone is getting the perspective that Ulamog and Kozilek were defeated without sacrifice. Much of the planet was reduced to dust, and even the name of The Gatewatch is an homage to the loss of the cultural landmark and center of knowledge that was Seagate. All of the Planeswalkers have faced various struggles, and Jace in particular has died at least once and projected his consciousness onto an innocent to survive, etc. Jace was terrified through the events of Shadows, though I had difficulty empathising.
What I'm getting at is that it might be best to just clear expectations and see what happens. Maybe look at it like the encouraged perspective of a planeswalker involved in these events instead of a literature critic trying to coldly regulate the amount of human suffering as a trope.
As a reader I didn't feel like there actually was anything lost on Zendikar. Yes they told us that Bala Ged and Seagate and Sejiri were destroyed, but those were always just landmarks that gave the world character, but I didn't particularly care for them, so I, as a reader, don't experience loss the same way as if a planeswalker died, or the entire plane was destroyed. Lorthos' death was probably the closest. I feel like this was a problem since it didn't match the scale of the Eldrazi as a threat. Innistrad is already different with Avacyn's death, a character I actually kind of knew and cared about.
Sure, okay, but that doesn't speak to the insignifigance of the event, just your values as a reader. The Planeswalkers face no danger from a planar threat. They can just leave. That's why Jace felt the need to organize a group of Planeswalkers that bothered to care. If the Eldrazi threat were to manifest as a personal struggle on one of the Planeswalkers, a more likely scenario would be, for instance, Liliana failed to sympathise with Zendikar, then a week later everyone stopped hearing from her because Emrakul crossed her path while she was planeswalking and left her stuck in the Blind Eternities. If you want cruelty, you're looking in the wrong place. The Eldrazi are not cruel, you're just a pest under their "feet".
You asked why as readers we didn't feel as though Ulamog and Kozilek were defeated without sacrifice and the answer is they did not convey it properly, for the reasons stated before. The event might not be free, but the way they portrayed it and nothing the readers caring about really being threatened or lost makes it feel insignificant, regardless of weather or not it is. Which means they failed at portraying it properly, if this is a common sentiment.
I'm a reader too, pointing out that the events leading up to the titan's defeat came after they had objectively caused great damage to the plane and its inhabitants.
I understand that you feel it was portrayed in a way you relate with poorly, and I recognize it is a common sentiment.
I'm saying I find that strange.
I've already come across similar perspectives at the local shop. People unsympathetic to the inhabitants of Innestrad, critical of The Gatewatch, underwhelmed by the appearance of Emrakul, certain of what will happen, certain of what should happen instead, and generally committed to being dissatisfied. Lots of people are eager to see Planeswalkers die, too.
To me, Planeswalkers feel worn out and are too many. Really hope they skim down to just one or two in a block so that they can have some spotlight. Even if it means not getting my colors in a Pw. This may not be a popular sentiment though I understand.
I think its safe to assume that we're more or less disillusioned with planeswalkers. They're all protected by the plot itself (mainly because WotC definitely doesn't want to pull of a Fate Reforged all that often to have alternate timelines, at least not for now at least). Post Time Spiral, with the exception of Theros (and we all know Elspeth is just in the Cold Storage and not actually "dead" like Venser is, and Xenagos is still an unknown factor unlike Venser), literally every story either left with status quo or new planeswalkers joining the cast instead of leaving it - we even used the Alternate Timeline to introduce Ugin and Narset instead (I technically consider it introducing Ugin since his fight with Bolas was honestly just relevant to himself and Tarkir only).
In a way, it makes Jace's statement of "We can run, but we are also the only ones who can choose to stay" quite meaningless - I think actual death as a repercussion of choosing to stay is an area of the statement that needs to be explored badly, because without a meaning it almost feels like Jace is aware that the plot is protecting him and mocking it (and us along with it). I know Elspeth technically pulled that off, but hey it was on Theros of all planes... and I think it needs to happen to the Gatewatch, because other than one angry Ajani, we haven't really seen the results of that "death" either (and the Gatewatch are the only ones running consecutive blocks to show that immediately).
"That's a nice fetchland you've got there, Spike. It'd be a shame if it entered the battlefield tapped."
"Did you just summon Emrakul onto my plane, Nahiri? That's cute. Tell me how it works out for you."
Huh. That's four legendary creatures already. I hope there's room for Brunsela and Hal & Alena.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vorthos Cartography - Check out my completed maps of Zendikar and Innistrad!
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
What was the line about unlikely allies in emn? I'm leaning towards a hilariously awkward team up of Liliana & Thalia.
"Hey Thalia."
"...Um, hi."
"Long time no see."
"Yeah..."
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vorthos Cartography - Check out my completed maps of Zendikar and Innistrad!
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
Sure, okay, but that doesn't speak to the insignifigance of the event, just your values as a reader. The Planeswalkers face no danger from a planar threat. They can just leave. That's why Jace felt the need to organize a group of Planeswalkers that bothered to care. If the Eldrazi threat were to manifest as a personal struggle on one of the Planeswalkers, a more likely scenario would be, for instance, Liliana failed to sympathise with Zendikar, then a week later everyone stopped hearing from her because Emrakul crossed her path while she was planeswalking and left her stuck in the Blind Eternities. If you want cruelty, you're looking in the wrong place. The Eldrazi are not cruel, you're just a pest under their "feet".
The thing is, good writing makes you care about what happens.
It s the same thing with comic books. Sure cities get destroyed but the superheroes are all dandy.
Sure, okay, but that doesn't speak to the insignifigance of the event, just your values as a reader. The Planeswalkers face no danger from a planar threat. They can just leave. That's why Jace felt the need to organize a group of Planeswalkers that bothered to care. If the Eldrazi threat were to manifest as a personal struggle on one of the Planeswalkers, a more likely scenario would be, for instance, Liliana failed to sympathise with Zendikar, then a week later everyone stopped hearing from her because Emrakul crossed her path while she was planeswalking and left her stuck in the Blind Eternities. If you want cruelty, you're looking in the wrong place. The Eldrazi are not cruel, you're just a pest under their "feet".
The thing is, good writing makes you care about what happens.
It s the same thing with comic books. Sure cities get destroyed but the superheroes are all dandy.
Sounds like WotC needs to hire George Martin... *cataclysm ensues. Everyone dies.*
Why does everyone assume it was actually Emrakul telepathically communicating with Jace. To me it looked more like Emrakul's presence was threatening to drive Jace mad again and filled his head with ominous whispers rather than the titan actually talking to him.
I disagree with the sentiment that satisfying the reader's expectations is wholly the responsibility of the writer. Certainly it's a goal, but I find the themes of MTG to be very insightful, and the weariness of readers to be a result of narrow perspectives and over-exposure. I can't imagine anything that would make the community care because it is by and large so obsessively and ruthlessly judgemental. Maybe it's a consequence of being attached to a complex strategy game of critical thinking.
I disagree with the sentiment that satisfying the reader's expectations is wholly the responsibility of the writer. Certainly it's a goal, but I find the themes of MTG to be very insightful, and the weariness of readers to be a result of narrow perspectives and over-exposure. I can't imagine anything that would make the community care because it is by and large so obsessively and ruthlessly judgemental. Maybe it's a consequence of being attached to a complex strategy game of critical thinking.
You're running into the common trap of thinking of a group of people as a monolithic entity. When people say "nothing can please the fans" what is really happening is actually "no matter what we do, we will upset different people". Nobody (or at least very few people) actually complain no matter what. It seems like that from the outside, because there is always someone who complains about a thing, but if you look closer you'll find that it's not the same person.
The only thing you could measure is how many people like a thing, but this is made difficult by the combination of the two facts that a) forums usually house the most vocal people and that b) displeased or unhappy people are more likely to voice their opinion.
(Just arrived from work, don't stone me...)
Also, we need some more stories detailing the fall into "Emrakulness", and if it's about Bruna and Gisela, it would be damn awesome.
Well, it apparently didn't go very well with Emrakul, just one question from miles away and she tried to chew on his mind harder, showing also that she's got some intellect. Maybe with Ulamog it would have been useless, as he barely seemed to think into another thing than just eating, perhaps his thoughts would've been mostly "IHUNGERIHUNGERIHUNGER..."; with Kozilek, I doubt Jace could even have managed to concentrate enough, as in the UR article detailing him it was told that just looking at him would cause you a "sharp, puncturing pain", it's also shown in that article that Kozilek was actually intelligent and REALLY sadistic (In the forked timeline Tazri witnessed Kozilek kept killing the Gatewatch for months if I recollect).
Also, it would've been INCREDIBLY dangerous, as it would have reveal Jace's position to the Eldrazi titans.
Void Attendant should have been a spawn of Emrakul instead of Ulamog; I know, I know, the processor mechanic was exclusive for Ulamog, but think about it, the flavor is just there, you kill and exile oppossing stuff, and then create new Scions from it, a rather convoluted way in the mechanical sense but the flavor fits right there: The Eldrazi replacing stuff with them.
Fan of Both old and new Slivers (But the new ones are still better anyway)
C Call of Emrakul - G vs R DD: Elves vs. Goblins - W vs B DD: Divine vs. Demonic - WUB Esper Artifice - RGW Aura Dancers
WUBRG Wrath of the Reaper King - WB Men of Faith - B Mercenaries - UB Phyrexian Assault 2.0 - WU Artifacts of Empires
BR Skeleton Warriors - RG Night of The Howlpack - B Bog Murderers - BR Eldrazi Assault - BGU Ulamog's Swarm
It just feels like kind of a retcon, the Eldrazi were supposed to be totally foreign and alien and not even really sentient as we understand it, now all of the sudden Emrakul speaks English and has a mind?
Well, theoretically, do enough assimilation of these planes and their people, and you probably pick up a few things.
But Emrakul is already telepathically communicating with everything on the plane.
Well, it was never said that they did not have a mind, Emrakul is still following the old Eldrazi axiom: Assimilate everything, which places her closer to Ulamog, while Kozilek was just killing and destroying for fun; also, I have thought that telepathy is a way to "break the language barrier", because the words are usually associated to a meaning given in one's mind, when you talk, you're thinking in the meaning of the words you're saying, and telepathy is listening (or sensing) those ideas rather than the spoken words. In Starcraft, there is the Protoss race, which lack mouths or means of conventional communication, so they use telepathy instead, they can "talk" with humans and are able to understand what they say, because of what I mentioned before, the thing about thinking in the meaning of the words while you speak them.
In the case of Emrakul, her ideas were projected into Jace's mind, because she could sense Jace's intent when he gazed at her and questioned about her name.
Fan of Both old and new Slivers (But the new ones are still better anyway)
C Call of Emrakul - G vs R DD: Elves vs. Goblins - W vs B DD: Divine vs. Demonic - WUB Esper Artifice - RGW Aura Dancers
WUBRG Wrath of the Reaper King - WB Men of Faith - B Mercenaries - UB Phyrexian Assault 2.0 - WU Artifacts of Empires
BR Skeleton Warriors - RG Night of The Howlpack - B Bog Murderers - BR Eldrazi Assault - BGU Ulamog's Swarm
What I'm getting at is that it might be best to just clear expectations and see what happens. Maybe look at it like the encouraged perspective of a planeswalker involved in these events instead of a literature critic trying to coldly regulate the amount of human suffering as a trope.
I understand that you feel it was portrayed in a way you relate with poorly, and I recognize it is a common sentiment.
I'm saying I find that strange.
I've already come across similar perspectives at the local shop. People unsympathetic to the inhabitants of Innestrad, critical of The Gatewatch, underwhelmed by the appearance of Emrakul, certain of what will happen, certain of what should happen instead, and generally committed to being dissatisfied. Lots of people are eager to see Planeswalkers die, too.
Wow. and it's a flip card on top of that.
Click the pic for more info.
In a way, it makes Jace's statement of "We can run, but we are also the only ones who can choose to stay" quite meaningless - I think actual death as a repercussion of choosing to stay is an area of the statement that needs to be explored badly, because without a meaning it almost feels like Jace is aware that the plot is protecting him and mocking it (and us along with it). I know Elspeth technically pulled that off, but hey it was on Theros of all planes... and I think it needs to happen to the Gatewatch, because other than one angry Ajani, we haven't really seen the results of that "death" either (and the Gatewatch are the only ones running consecutive blocks to show that immediately).
"That's a nice fetchland you've got there, Spike. It'd be a shame if it entered the battlefield tapped."
"Did you just summon Emrakul onto my plane, Nahiri? That's cute. Tell me how it works out for you."
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
"Hey Thalia."
"...Um, hi."
"Long time no see."
"Yeah..."
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
The thing is, good writing makes you care about what happens.
It s the same thing with comic books. Sure cities get destroyed but the superheroes are all dandy.
Sounds like WotC needs to hire George Martin... *cataclysm ensues. Everyone dies.*
You're running into the common trap of thinking of a group of people as a monolithic entity. When people say "nothing can please the fans" what is really happening is actually "no matter what we do, we will upset different people". Nobody (or at least very few people) actually complain no matter what. It seems like that from the outside, because there is always someone who complains about a thing, but if you look closer you'll find that it's not the same person.
The only thing you could measure is how many people like a thing, but this is made difficult by the combination of the two facts that a) forums usually house the most vocal people and that b) displeased or unhappy people are more likely to voice their opinion.