If this is the wrong section to ask this remove it please.
So, I was wondering about Jace being the Living Guildpact now. According to the gamepedia page and other sources, the guildpact is powerful magic which makes it possible on Ravnica to enforce the law inscribed on it and also influence probability to keep balance between the guilds.
It was broken in Dissension and again reestablished and magically powered in the Amazing Race, Dragon's Mace withing a person, Jace Beleren, hence the Living Guildpact.
My questions now are these: Is this now the equivalent to the old pact, bound in a human? Does it have the same power as the old one, or is it just a title? If it is as powerful as the old one and rooted in Jace, shouldn't it seize to function as soon as he goes traipsing around the multiverse?
If someone read the book or knows more about this topic, please share your wisdom
Well... we just don't know. There have been times where it seems as though if Jace speaks it, it is magically binding law. But we don't really know if anything else. If Jace's presence is required for the magic to work then... well there's gonna be a heck of a mess when he finally makes it back.
Oh we also know that there are ways to avert the magic. The Obzedat have a room in which they are not bound by the power of the guildpact. But what exactly that means is also unknown.
Well... we just don't know. There have been times where it seems as though if Jace speaks it, it is magically binding law. But we don't really know if anything else. If Jace's presence is required for the magic to work then... well there's gonna be a heck of a mess when he finally makes it back.
Exactly. Wizards is totally setting up for there to be complete chaos in Ravnica if/when we return.
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Well... we just don't know. There have been times where it seems as though if Jace speaks it, it is magically binding law. But we don't really know if anything else. If Jace's presence is required for the magic to work then... well there's gonna be a heck of a mess when he finally makes it back.
Exactly. Wizards is totally setting up for there to be complete chaos in Ravnica if/when we return.
This is likely intentional. So we have a conflict to resolve upon return.
This is likely intentional. So we have a conflict to resolve upon return.
The real Question is (for me at least) is Ravnica 3 going to be before or after we visit Vyrn?
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"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
This is likely intentional. So we have a conflict to resolve upon return.
The real Question is (for me at least) is Ravnica 3 going to be before or after we visit Vyrn?
I'm not sure Vyrn could support a full set or if there is even interest in going there. I wasn't personally compelled much by it. I'd rather see Ravnica three if we are going to Jace's home
If that's really it then Jace is kind of a douche bag. Was it not explained to him what the guildpact means, or how it works? Did he ever spare a thought to what would happen if he left, even for a short while? If that really is a set up Wizard will make Jace look like a complete fool.
If that's really it then Jace is kind of a douche bag. Was it not explained to him what the guildpact means, or how it works? Did he ever spare a thought to what would happen if he left, even for a short while? If that really is a set up Wizard will make Jace look like a complete fool.
Last time we saw him it gave the impression that his duties kept him extremely busy and now it appears he has been blowing them off for months at least possibly a year. Ravnica is going to be a mess when he comes back.
What were his duties? I didn't read the books, and the wikipedia calls his position a "mediator". Does this mean he constantly has to sort out all kinds of struggles between every person of every guild? Because that would be insanely busy.
Ravnica can't work out its civil disputes such as when Izzet alchemists accidentally burn down a Selesnya arboretum because the all-powerful Supreme Court Jacetice is off playing Sherlock Holmes in another universe. Instead, you get chemisters duking it out with centaurs and dryads in the streets, with wayward fireballs and spears flying through storefronts and into Orzhov basilicas. The whole city is going to hell and Jace is too busy inspecting bits of tentacle slime left behind at crime scenes to give a damn.
These days, some wizards are finding they have a little too much deck left at the end of their $$$.
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Well to be fair I think most of the people involved with the Guildpact originally didn't think about planeswalkers. I mean Azor was a walker but when it was reinstated the first time it was written by Teysa who wouldn't know about walkers so theyd have no reason to consider that if the power the Guildpact was out into a person and if that person somehow left their known universe.
I don't think that it's as much an issue as you might think. Jace is busy, yes, but apparently he sees very few people personally, using Lavinia as a sort of mouthpiece. And while he certainly is a mediator, and his word is law, it's not as though the previous laws disappeared. They can still be enforced by the Azorius and Boros. Are people no doubt already working to undermine the authority of the Guildpact? No doubt. Lazav didn't die, unless I'm being crazy forgetful right now, so he's no doubt scheming something. The Obzedat just locked away a high ranking Boros soldier, and their own public voice, and have a room that is outside of Guildpact law. They have teams of Advokists, who could probably find ways to bend the law, but stay within it, until it all shatters. But it's also the Orzhov, and they are not a speedy group. Rakdos and Gruul are troublesome, but not completely out of control, and Rakdos is probably in another one of his slumbers.
All in all, yeah, there's probably some issues. But I don't think his leaving is quite as bad as people think.
I don't think that it's as much an issue as you might think. Jace is busy, yes, but apparently he sees very few people personally, using Lavinia as a sort of mouthpiece. And while he certainly is a mediator, and his word is law, it's not as though the previous laws disappeared. They can still be enforced by the Azorius and Boros. Are people no doubt already working to undermine the authority of the Guildpact? No doubt. Lazav didn't die, unless I'm being crazy forgetful right now, so he's no doubt scheming something. The Obzedat just locked away a high ranking Boros soldier, and their own public voice, and have a room that is outside of Guildpact law. They have teams of Advokists, who could probably find ways to bend the law, but stay within it, until it all shatters. But it's also the Orzhov, and they are not a speedy group. Rakdos and Gruul are troublesome, but not completely out of control, and Rakdos is probably in another one of his slumbers.
This is Magic we are talking about here. Of course everything is going to be completely screwed up when we return.
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"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
Honestly the very premise of a living guildpact is ridiculous. Jace is a human, with presumably human lifespan and mortality*. Even if he lives/manages to avoid assassination to be a hundred, that's insignificant compared to the ten THOUSAND years the prior guildpact existed.
Then they'll be right back in the same position.
*Correct me if I'm unaware of the guildpact somehow extending his lifespan.
The guildpact could extend his lifespan, we don't know though.
As for the succession of the Guildpact, I am sure there is a system in place. The purpose of the living Guildpact is to be embodied in a person who can adjust the law to achieve balance. A living law that can alter to fit the situation. His word is binding, as evidenced by Teysa's exploitation.
In that case, why would you embody the law in an amnesiac telepath with no legal education and a history of making poor decisions? Your average Azorius middle-management law clerk is better suited to do that job than Jace.
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These days, some wizards are finding they have a little too much deck left at the end of their $$$.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
In that case, why would you embody the law in an amnesiac telepath with no legal education and a history of making poor decisions? Your average Azorius middle-management law clerk is better suited to do that job than Jace.
That was not up to anyone really. It was the system set up by Azor. Had Jace not succeeded in the Implicit Maze a supreme verdict would have been fired. All those factors you mentioned were never considered.
I don't think that it's as much an issue as you might think. Jace is busy, yes, but apparently he sees very few people personally, using Lavinia as a sort of mouthpiece. And while he certainly is a mediator, and his word is law, it's not as though the previous laws disappeared. They can still be enforced by the Azorius and Boros. Are people no doubt already working to undermine the authority of the Guildpact? No doubt. Lazav didn't die, unless I'm being crazy forgetful right now, so he's no doubt scheming something. The Obzedat just locked away a high ranking Boros soldier, and their own public voice, and have a room that is outside of Guildpact law. They have teams of Advokists, who could probably find ways to bend the law, but stay within it, until it all shatters. But it's also the Orzhov, and they are not a speedy group. Rakdos and Gruul are troublesome, but not completely out of control, and Rakdos is probably in another one of his slumbers.
All in all, yeah, there's probably some issues. But I don't think his leaving is quite as bad as people think.
I was just wondering about the magic behind the guildpact and how it ties to Jace. Is he just a public figure, representing it or is the magic tied to him?
That's what I don't get about "the Living Guildpact". Will the magic work across the plane no matter if Jace is there or not, or does it not care where he is unless he declares something on Ravnica in the name of the guildpact?
Considering he was regularly plane hoping sense becoming the Living Guildpact with at least the Izzet noticing, someone would have noticed if everything went to hell the moment he was off plane. It currently seems that all the Living Guildpact does it arbitrate the worst conflicts between guilds, such as Niv-Mizzet trying to declare war on another guild at the end of the books. Teysa proved that by having him affirm laws in your presence gives the laws actual magic effect so there is definitely power in his new status, and it appears he was gone when she went to exploit these powers so another strike against the whole 'he's gone nothing works' scenario. Also EVERYONE solved the 'implicit maze' but that was just the cue to kill everyone if one who 'could' bring the guilds together wasn't found. Jace wasn't chosen as a particularly good, smart, or insightful person but because he wasn't biased to any guild, and he literally could see both sides of the argument and with this power could maybe help resolve conflicts. So unless 'war be declared' Jace being gone shouldn't cause any major problems. The problems rise when someone realizes he's gone and will stay gone for sometime so they can exploit his absence, so it more than likely will happen while he is on this Gatewatch trip which will be the base for the next return to Rav and will have some throw away line at the end about how Jace has to stop by more often but it won't stop him from being used when they want.
If that's really it then Jace is kind of a douche bag. Was it not explained to him what the guildpact means, or how it works? Did he ever spare a thought to what would happen if he left, even for a short while? If that really is a set up Wizard will make Jace look like a complete fool.
The Eldrazi threat kinda trumps anything happening in Ravnica, don't you think?
This is likely intentional. So we have a conflict to resolve upon return.
The real Question is (for me at least) is Ravnica 3 going to be before or after we visit Vyrn?
We'll probably have ourselves a scenario where Jace completely fails Ravnica as the Living Guildpact and thus returns home with his tail between his legs, then <insert conflict here> on plane and redemption arc.
This is likely intentional. So we have a conflict to resolve upon return.
The real Question is (for me at least) is Ravnica 3 going to be before or after we visit Vyrn?
We'll probably have ourselves a scenario where Jace completely fails Ravnica as the Living Guildpact and thus returns home with his tail between his legs, then <insert conflict here> on plane and redemption arc.
This would be really weird because Jace doesn't know that Vryn is his home plane. For his entire living memory Ravnica has been his 'home' plane.
The way I see it, they inscribed the Guildpact on Jace because it actually would be safer. A planeswalker is not like a normal mortal of his race, but practically immortal, instead. His lifespan is huge, his power is great, and if he's ever threatened, he can unexist and reixist someplane else. Think of the old Guildpact as an enchantment. Maybe even a well protected enchantment given shroud by another enchantment, etc. It can still be removed with a relatively simple series of white and blue spells. A planeswalker, on the other hand, isn't even possible to destroy, in game. The implication is that when they are out of "loyalty", they simply planeswalk away from danger. As for the state of Ravnica, I don't think Jade's absence dissolves the magic of the Guildpact, and I'm sure he did in fact delegate whatever duties he was busy with to the Azor. Also, the founders of the original Guildpact were aware of the existence of Planeswalkers. The original Guildpact apparently prevented planeswalking to or from Ravnica under normal circumstances.
Now that I've sorted that out best I can, does anyone know if the terms of the Guildpact under Jace still restricts Planeswalking?
How many? Whom? "Now" when? Did they arrive before or after the sealing of the new Guildpact? With or without the involvement of magical megabeaurocracy? Care to discuss?
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So, I was wondering about Jace being the Living Guildpact now. According to the gamepedia page and other sources, the guildpact is powerful magic which makes it possible on Ravnica to enforce the law inscribed on it and also influence probability to keep balance between the guilds.
It was broken in Dissension and again reestablished and magically powered in the Amazing Race, Dragon's Mace withing a person, Jace Beleren, hence the Living Guildpact.
My questions now are these: Is this now the equivalent to the old pact, bound in a human? Does it have the same power as the old one, or is it just a title? If it is as powerful as the old one and rooted in Jace, shouldn't it seize to function as soon as he goes traipsing around the multiverse?
If someone read the book or knows more about this topic, please share your wisdom
Oh we also know that there are ways to avert the magic. The Obzedat have a room in which they are not bound by the power of the guildpact. But what exactly that means is also unknown.
Basically we don't know.
Exactly. Wizards is totally setting up for there to be complete chaos in Ravnica if/when we return.
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
The real Question is (for me at least) is Ravnica 3 going to be before or after we visit Vyrn?
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
All in all, yeah, there's probably some issues. But I don't think his leaving is quite as bad as people think.
This is Magic we are talking about here. Of course everything is going to be completely screwed up when we return.
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
Then they'll be right back in the same position.
*Correct me if I'm unaware of the guildpact somehow extending his lifespan.
As for the succession of the Guildpact, I am sure there is a system in place. The purpose of the living Guildpact is to be embodied in a person who can adjust the law to achieve balance. A living law that can alter to fit the situation. His word is binding, as evidenced by Teysa's exploitation.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
That was not up to anyone really. It was the system set up by Azor. Had Jace not succeeded in the Implicit Maze a supreme verdict would have been fired. All those factors you mentioned were never considered.
I was just wondering about the magic behind the guildpact and how it ties to Jace. Is he just a public figure, representing it or is the magic tied to him?
That's what I don't get about "the Living Guildpact". Will the magic work across the plane no matter if Jace is there or not, or does it not care where he is unless he declares something on Ravnica in the name of the guildpact?
The Eldrazi threat kinda trumps anything happening in Ravnica, don't you think?
We'll probably have ourselves a scenario where Jace completely fails Ravnica as the Living Guildpact and thus returns home with his tail between his legs, then <insert conflict here> on plane and redemption arc.
(Also known as Xenphire)
Now that I've sorted that out best I can, does anyone know if the terms of the Guildpact under Jace still restricts Planeswalking?
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