Superman has flaws. Jace has flaws. Suggesting Jace is a Mary Sue or a bad character is so egregiously incorrect it makes me almost agree with MaRo on this.
Well yes, that is correct.
Superman, though, at least has the benefit of being an ideal. Jace is very close to being wishfulfillment.
Jace has gotten better since Ravnica 2.0. I like that they are giving him more flaws, and more of a personality. he's moved from being a cardboard cutout to being an arrogant prick with a conscience, and his back story on Vryn retroactively made his blank slate traits better.
That said, Jacetus League is fine. It calls it out for exactly what it is, a lazy piggy back on super hero team movies as the story starts taking its cues from comics instead of fantasy novels. It sticks, and if they didn't want it to they wouldn't have made it so obvious nor chosen such a weak official name.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I appreciate the insights on all sides of this issue. I can't speak for anybody else, but when I first asked how long it would be before we saw the Jacetus League Assemble, I just thought it was a snarky little pun that fit the direction I thought they were going in at the time. I didn't consider all of the Jace-hate baggage or the overall contempt for MTG's storytelling in general getting attached to the name. My thinking was literally "oh, they're going to eventually put together a team of neowalkers like The Justice Leauge, and Jace is obviously going to be in it, because Jace. Hey! it could be like a Jace-tus league!" and that's about as far as I took it.
I guess if future Gatewatch stories focus less on Jace, then there would be less reasons to call it the Jacetus League. However, I just don't see his role on the team ever being de-emphasized. I personally am indifferent to Jace.
I'm a pro wrestling geek, so I liken him to John Cena. Jace is polarizing not because he is a bad character or archetype. Not really.
fanbases don't like to be forcefed, and many hardcore Vorthoses feel like Jace has beenmade into the face of MTG and they haven't had any say in the decision.
So any time he appears they feel as if they are getting forcefed more Jace than they feel is needed (which is pretty much every time he shows his face) there will be vitriol. At this point it doesn't matter how well or poorly developed his character is. or what his backstory is or how he is treated in future stories. - and for the record, I think that recently he has been developed pretty well - but the people who reacted negatively towards Jace will always find a reason to be negative or say that he is overexposed.
Now, anything or anywhere Jace appears in will be Jace-tainted, and that includes the Gatewatch.
I've always said Jace has what I like to call:"the John cena effect",which is what you described.
Agreed. At the very least timing the oaths properly could have helped. Still... What was the point of their victory and of sparing Zendikar if it got trashed in the end anyway? Literally no forethought or risks were implemented. Zendikar as a popular setting is there, yet trashed. The Gatewatch won, but at the expense of an ongoing story arc and major cosmic villains. The Gatewatch formed, but in a very anticlimactic way (heroes uniting for a common, nigh-impossible cause should be exciting, not predictable and cliche) and the whole thing felt staged. Literally no outcome was favorable for a deeper story, but only for marketing purposes.
That said, there is potential. Emrakul is out there and gave Tamiyo a spotlight. The Kozilek curveball was impressive. Ob Nixilis left them a score to settle. Kiora was humbled and could develop more. And in a way, the Eldrazi were a means to an end somehow, orchestrated by the real villain, Bolas - so there's somewhere to go with all this.
But I don't feel the unity of this Gatewatch crew. It's too superficial because it wasn't welded well enough in BFZ. Jace and Gideon feel like they're close, but IDK about the team as a whole. And a teamup like this is usually more fun when it features some past enemies that are forced to team up. Lilliana with Jace? Someone with the potential to double-cross, yet mysteriously cooperating. Two people that are formidable foes to eachother combining forces against a greater entity and still possibly failing but pulling through in the end by doing what they do best, usually against each other.
The Gatewatch right now feels too loosely aligned and will need more experience and purpose in why they do what they do and why they chose to do it together.
I wouldn't write off Zendikar entirely. The plane is recovering, and there is room for plenty of adventure as they rebuild. The art book strongly implied that some of the ruins predated the Eldrazi, and the rampages of the titans even uncovered a few new sites. What I'm saying is, hopefully, Zendikar 3 will be a true return to the plane.
I'm not sure if anyone agrees with me on this, but one of my favorite chapters from OGW was the last chapter, Zendkar Resurgent. It hinted at what the Gatewatch could actually be. I liked the interactions between characters and the potential relationships (romantic and otherwise) they implied. I want Wizards to expand on those, make the Gatewatch a true team, as you said. There was also the whole thing with Ugin and "What have you done!?" and the subtle hinting that the titans were all just another part of Bolas's grand plan. Also, because the chapter had the least going on with it, it felt the least forced.
Of course wizards will go with the Coca Cola classic ploy.Replace something well liked with something not as good,so they can get huge praise for bringing "it" back.
Is the idea of a team of heroes exclusive to comic book superheroes? There is the Fellowship of the Ringbearer, from a fantasy series. Frankenstein's monster, Dracula, and the Mummy teamed up in the 30's. There are many others, even going back to Greek mythology and many others. There were the Argonauts, the Greeks in the Trojan War, and even the Olympians were a team of sorts. The idea that a group of characters organizing is not something unique to comic heroes, it is merely showcased.
I think it's perfectly fine for people to call it Jacetus league because they think the Jace-love by Wizards is over the top. Think of it as a driving/campaign tool to, you know, drive the point home. Objectively, no one can deny that Jace has been everywhere, poking his nose into everything, too OP, lore and card-wise. He's just short of doing a nude spread on Playboy (or maybe Centerfold). It is too much.
It's entirely justifiable; even Wizards knew they were borrowing an existing idea. They wanted to ride that wave. Getting angry/annoyed/salty over it is contradictory behavior. Marvel/DC/any creative established field should have sued them. C'mon just be mature about it, MaRo and Co.
Objectively, no one can deny that Jace has been everywhere, poking his nose into everything, too OP, lore and card-wise.
This is the problem though, because this isn't really true.
Lore wise, Jace has appeared in Four blocks plus Origins. Before Origins, he was only in two blocks (Zen and RTR). He's just appeared repeatedly as a core set walker. SOI is the set that put Jace over the top in terms of appearances, otherwise he'd have been tied with Ajani, Elspeth AND Gideon.
It entirely justifiable; even Wizards knew they were borrowing an existing idea. They wanted to ride that wave. Getting angry/annoyed/salty over it is contradictory behavior.
Precisely this. I don't think it's limited to Jace-backlash, either. I think the name is wielded as a mocking term by those who just don't like Magic jumping on the superhero wagon in general. To which I totally agree. It feels exploitative. Gimmicky.
Magic has its own more traditional fantasy thing going for it. I'd rather not see it change its identity to piggyback on a different genre's success. Do you know who already does the Avengers well? The Avengers. Magic, meanwhile, isn't a comic franchise, and Wizards should stick to doing what *they* do well and not try to make Magic's format a mediocre copy of what it isn't. Because mediocrity is the most it can aspire to if it follows this path and tries to play in another genre's arena.
(Whether Magic was ever more than mediocre at storytelling to begin with is a matter some may prefer to argue. I maintain that it has shown flashes of brilliance.)
Jacetus League is fine. It was actually a funny joke when it went out, and like every other joke it ran its course. If we're between adults, I don't see the point of banning the use of a joke or supposing it's disrespectful or inappropriate when it's simply not. We're not on a politically correct blog with hashtags and instagram-fueled social justice as far I can see.
Jace is fine also, they did the mistake of promoting him a bit too much which led to over-exposure, and over-exposure can easily draw criticism and become the PR target for everything. Maro defended that a bit too harshly which could have led to further frustration that Jace was forced on the game. When he says that people playing Zelda expect Link to naturally appear, it's not a sound comparison. Link was the main protagonist of Zelda games from day one, unlike Jace.
To be complete, I'm not a US comics fan at all and am completely oblivious to all these mega-budget blockbusters, so I'm more annoyed by the fact they want to position the Magic storyline like in the comics, but this is another story. But let's not censor ourselves. If I keep hearing an overused joke around, I'll just stop caring, I won't ask people to stop.
Elaborating on the Gatewatch and Weatherlight Crew comparison.
The weatherlight crew was an amalgam of eterogeneous characters with different abilities and such, but they weren't superhuman (let's say, like Indiana Jones or Han Solo), while the Gatewatch is made of planeswalkers, that is, beings with extraordinary powers at their disposals (like Yoda or damn Superman)... Hell, one of them is actually invulnerable.
Second, and most important, in the story, things happened to the Weatherlight crew.
Bad things that had ramifications in their futures and left scars (physical and psychological), some of the meven died or turned evil:
- Starke was a phyrexian agent who joined the Weatherlight crew and was killed by a phyrexian shapeshifter;
- Crovax was forced to kill Selenia and for that he was cursed and became a vampire. The crew had to leave him behind... He later became the new Rath evincar and lead the Rathi forces against Dominaria.
- Ertai "sacrificed" himself to keep the portal to Mercadia open and allow the rest of the crew to escape. He then became corrupted and a servant to Crovax.
- Thangarth was captured, tortured and disfigured.
What I mean is that not everything turned out ok for them, not all the time.
Up until now, apart from the spark ignition event, nothing really bad happened to the gatewatch walkers, all the hard choiches they might have made in past stories are left behind, like they happened to other characters.
It is like "bad things happen to other people, not to the gatewatch". I'm even convinced that they killed Elspeth only because they had to get rid of a recurring mono-white walker since they established Gideon as the mono-white lead.
Unless wizards adds meaningful events to the gatewatch story, events that have ramifications on the characters, like partially chaning their personality or view of life or change the nature of their powers (at least partially) or make their characters suffer the consequences of going overboard and pushing too far, then the gatewatch will never be as appealing as the Weatherlight crew, because you will always know that everything will be right in the end and the characterd will never suffer anything worse than a scratch. (see the whole of the BFZ and OGW plot).
This said, I agree that the name "Jacetus League" might "offend" some sensibilities, but it is Wizard's fault for NEVER giving ANY KIND OF ALTERNATIVE to Jace as a blue walker (mainly) and as a blue character (secondly), this lead to oversaturation of Jace for many people.
This is jumping to conclusions way to fast, we had years for the weatherlight crew to experiance their hardships while we have gotten ONE complete story about the gatewatch. If you expected everything to fall apart on the first story then it seems the problem is on your end. If they never suffer set back and are neigh omnipotent in all stories then yes they are terrible but give them more than the first chapter of their story.
Let's put it into perspective. Since the advent of the walker card, there's literally Jace every year. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jace being in every coreset till its finale in Origins doesn't help things. I know this is the storyline section, but there's a reason why people tend to say Jace is everywhere is not a farcical thing. People correlate cards to storyline, and his printings don't exactly help matters.
Remember our old walker rule? Whereby people use small jace to kill JTMS? Or how about the old comedy whereby Jace is always better than Chandra (this has since changed a little, but not without social media pressure on wizards).
History has shown (like the Chandra vs Jace debacle) that people can influence what Wizards create in the future, and that includes our storyline. Without any pressure, would we have the awesome Chandra, Pyromaster compared to Jace, the Living Guildpact? Would Pros and other players alike stand united to ask for temporary status quo on Platinum? Or how about a Modern Pro Tour? Didn't we ask for an artifact walker (other than Tezz) years ago? Yea, and we got the awesome Daretti.
Constant reminders (via social media) can affect how things are done within Wizards. You can say that MaRo, a Marvel fan, was influenced to the extent of having a League of heroes, hence the Gatewatch. Therefore people calling Jacetus League, whether tongue-in-cheek, mockery, or perhaps truthfully, shouldn't be dismissed as merely terrorism on Lore. Saying Jace isn't prevalent is kinda disingenuous.
One thing is definite for sure. Jace is always IN season.
Or perhaps Gatewatch is indeed a horrible name after all.
I honestly don't really care that anyone uses it though I don't use it myself. I do think it would be ridiculous for anyone to get moderated for using it. That's liek modding people because they say "Emracool".
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"Pop in, find a dragon, roast a dragon."
-Chandra Nalaar
They(Jace and Chandra) were introduced 9 years ago in Lorwyn(2007) but we didn't get any real story on them until 2 years later in Zendikar(2009) then we got ONE story till origins and that's only if you count the Coreset "story". In each of their intro stories they grew significantly, if you can't see that its a problem on your end. While there has been very little to no growth sense they started being focused on we have only gotten their introductions. Origins was a soft reboot of their story because their characters were moving at a snail's pace before. If we see no development in the gatewatch during their second adventure, for Jace that is SOI, then we can start complaining of unchanging characters.
People need to remember just because we have had these characters for years and WE have been talking about them for years we have gotten almost no story on the majority of them with Jace FINALLY taking the lead in stories with SOI. So I feel it is jumping to conclusions because while we only had 5 years with the Weatherlight we had more than 5 stories considering the state of stories then and now.
Elaborating on the Gatewatch and Weatherlight Crew comparison.
The weatherlight crew was an amalgam of eterogeneous characters with different abilities and such, but they weren't superhuman (let's say, like Indiana Jones or Han Solo), while the Gatewatch is made of planeswalkers, that is, beings with extraordinary powers at their disposals (like Yoda or damn Superman)... Hell, one of them is actually invulnerable.
Second, and most important, in the story, things happened to the Weatherlight crew.
Bad things that had ramifications in their futures and left scars (physical and psychological), some of the meven died or turned evil:
- Starke was a phyrexian agent who joined the Weatherlight crew and was killed by a phyrexian shapeshifter;
- Crovax was forced to kill Selenia and for that he was cursed and became a vampire. The crew had to leave him behind... He later became the new Rath evincar and lead the Rathi forces against Dominaria.
- Ertai "sacrificed" himself to keep the portal to Mercadia open and allow the rest of the crew to escape. He then became corrupted and a servant to Crovax.
- Thangarth was captured, tortured and disfigured.
What I mean is that not everything turned out ok for them, not all the time.
Up until now, apart from the spark ignition event, nothing really bad happened to the gatewatch walkers, all the hard choiches they might have made in past stories are left behind, like they happened to other characters.
It is like "bad things happen to other people, not to the gatewatch". I'm even convinced that they killed Elspeth only because they had to get rid of a recurring mono-white walker since they established Gideon as the mono-white lead.
Unless wizards adds meaningful events to the gatewatch story, events that have ramifications on the characters, like partially chaning their personality or view of life or change the nature of their powers (at least partially) or make their characters suffer the consequences of going overboard and pushing too far, then the gatewatch will never be as appealing as the Weatherlight crew, because you will always know that everything will be right in the end and the characterd will never suffer anything worse than a scratch. (see the whole of the BFZ and OGW plot).
This said, I agree that the name "Jacetus League" might "offend" some sensibilities, but it is Wizard's fault for NEVER giving ANY KIND OF ALTERNATIVE to Jace as a blue walker (mainly) and as a blue character (secondly), this lead to oversaturation of Jace for many people.
This is jumping to conclusions way to fast, we had years for the weatherlight crew to experiance their hardships while we have gotten ONE complete story about the gatewatch. If you expected everything to fall apart on the first story then it seems the problem is on your end. If they never suffer set back and are neigh omnipotent in all stories then yes they are terrible but give them more than the first chapter of their story.
Literally everything he mentioned happened, at least in part, during Tempest block.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I don't think modding people for it is a particularly good idea but it would be hilarious if someone copped a warning for overusing the phrase Jacetus League.
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Although I dislike Jace as a character (although in all fairness, I dislike all of the Gatewatch as characters), I don't feel hes particularly overused. That said, I like Jacetus League just as a cute pun.
As for being disrespectful, well, I'll start respecting the Gatewatch just as soon as they start deserving it.
I don't think modding people for it is a particularly good idea but it would be hilarious if someone copped a warning for overusing the phrase Jacetus League.
At worst, Kaburi and I might just mess with you.
Unfortunately, we've already been told the forum censor software can't be used to auto-replace "Jacetus League" with "Gatewatch"
I don't think modding people for it is a particularly good idea but it would be hilarious if someone copped a warning for overusing the phrase Jacetus League.
At worst, Kaburi and I might just mess with you.
Unfortunately, we've already been told the forum censor software can't be used to auto-replace "Jacetus League" with "Gatewatch"
Hilarity would have ensued.
Yeah that would have been funny too.
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Unfortunately, we've already been told the forum censor software can't be used to auto-replace "Jacetus League" with "Gatewatch"
Hilarity would have ensued.
Imagine if it did it with this thread title. "Should Gatewatch be banned?" That would have made for an interesting topic.
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I have no issue with the name "Jacetus League". The return to Zendikar was an utter failure, the Gatewatch group included. I understand that all stories need a main character, but with the massive amount of walkers we have, we keep seeing Jace pop up. Some of the Jace hate comes from just wanting to see other, under utilized, walkers. He has showed up in several stories, with little break. M13, RTR, M14, M15, Origins, BFZ, and now SOI. Recently he's been in more stories and blocks than any other walker. If you don't understand how that can be thought of as "shoving down our throat" I don't know what to tell you. Some is from a general dislike of Jace's character, which, until recently, was rather bland. I really liked the Superman argument. At first Jace was like Silver Age Superman. He has no real flaws, and can overcome any obstacle put in front of him with relative ease. Then with Origins Jace was powered down a bit, and even given flaws, which you could relate to Post Crisis Superman, or Golden Age Superman. Silver Age Superman was boring. He did ridiculous things all the time, and was a convenient plot device used to fix any of the stories issue. It was a bit like the Sonic Screwdiver at times. Same with the way Jace is being used. Any story he's been involved with he's been able to easily solve, all while being in little danger to himself, and suffering little harm. It's boring.
Then you get Chandra's lack of depth (Fire!, I'm angry and indecisive!), the retconning of Nissa's past (I liked racist Nissa), and you are left with Gideon being the only semi interesting walker in the group, with the whole tragic hero thing going on. But then you see Gideon's super plot armor in BFZ and... it's boring again. I'm supposed to believe a he was stabbed by a goblin, but can hold off Eldrazi tentacles without harm? It's not like he got much more rest between the two events. The whole of the Gatewatch club was poorly thought out and done, and suffers a lot of negative attention. Thus the Jacetus League.
I have no issue with the name "Jacetus League". The return to Zendikar was an utter failure, the Gatewatch group included. I understand that all stories need a main character, but with the massive amount of walkers we have, we keep seeing Jace pop up. Some of the Jace hate comes from just wanting to see other, under utilized, walkers. He has showed up in several stories, with little break. M13, RTR, M14, M15, Origins, BFZ, and now SOI. Recently he's been in more stories and blocks than any other walker. If you don't understand how that can be thought of as "shoving down our throat" I don't know what to tell you. Some is from a general dislike of Jace's character, which, until recently, was rather bland. I really liked the Superman argument. At first Jace was like Silver Age Superman. He has no real flaws, and can overcome any obstacle put in front of him with relative ease. Then with Origins Jace was powered down a bit, and even given flaws, which you could relate to Post Crisis Superman, or Golden Age Superman. Silver Age Superman was boring. He did ridiculous things all the time, and was a convenient plot device used to fix any of the stories issue. It was a bit like the Sonic Screwdiver at times. Same with the way Jace is being used. Any story he's been involved with he's been able to easily solve, all while being in little danger to himself, and suffering little harm. It's boring.
Then you get Chandra's lack of depth (Fire!, I'm angry and indecisive!), the retconning of Nissa's past (I liked racist Nissa), and you are left with Gideon being the only semi interesting walker in the group, with the whole tragic hero thing going on. But then you see Gideon's super plot armor in BFZ and... it's boring again. I'm supposed to believe a he was stabbed by a goblin, but can hold off Eldrazi tentacles without harm? It's not like he got much more rest between the two events. The whole of the Gatewatch club was poorly thought out and done, and suffers a lot of negative attention. Thus the Jacetus League.
Chandra was pretty well written. There was very little 'angry' stuff. Also Jace had flaws, he sucks with interpersonal relationships and his telepathy was a no-sell against the Eldrazi.
Chandra's whole plot line was based on her being indecisive.
"Chandra, drop what's currently important to you and join us!"
"No! I must stay here, it's where I belong, even if I'm still coming to grips with my new found responsibilities." A few months later.... "Guys, I totally blew off people who relied on me, abandoned what was important to me at the time, to come help! Let's light stuff on fire!"
Kiora has a far better personality with much less story about her. Chandra desperately needs some character growth, but that can be said about several of the walkers right now.
Jace vs Eldrazi was one of the first times we see him actually have a real weakness. It was a nice change of pace. Him being saved by Zada was quite humorous. But then he comes up with a plan to kill one Titan, which is ruined by both Ob and Kozi's emergence in the story. He then comes up with a new plan, completely on the fly, and kills two Eldrazi. Just when things where starting to look good for the return of Zendikar story, it was all conveniently solved, loose ends tied up, and the plane's story resolved. Emmy isn't there, and Nissa has kick started the healing process, which is some how probably going to out pace Dominaria's healing for no reason at all. We need some tension. Elspeth dying was fantastic, along with Ajani's anger and turn against the God's. Phyrexia winning, Venser's death, Karn abandoning the plane, and Koth's futile resistance makes for a far better story than the Gatewatch arch.
Chandra's whole plot line was based on her being indecisive.
"Chandra, drop what's currently important to you and join us!"
"No! I must stay here, it's where I belong, even if I'm still coming to grips with my new found responsibilities." A few months later.... "Guys, I totally blew off people who relied on me, abandoned what was important to me at the time, to come help! Let's light stuff on fire!"
Kiora has a far better personality with much less story about her. Chandra desperately needs some character growth, but that can be said about several of the walkers right now.
Jace vs Eldrazi was one of the first times we see him actually have a real weakness. It was a nice change of pace. Him being saved by Zada was quite humorous. But then he comes up with a plan to kill one Titan, which is ruined by both Ob and Kozi's emergence in the story. He then comes up with a new plan, completely on the fly, and kills two Eldrazi. Just when things where starting to look good for the return of Zendikar story, it was all conveniently solved, loose ends tied up, and the plane's story resolved. Emmy isn't there, and Nissa has kick started the healing process, which is some how probably going to out pace Dominaria's healing for no reason at all. We need some tension. Elspeth dying was fantastic, along with Ajani's anger and turn against the God's. Phyrexia winning, Venser's death, Karn abandoning the plane, and Koth's futile resistance makes for a far better story than the Gatewatch arch.
Did you read the story? Chandra got some chraracter development and realized that she couldn't just stay in the monestary, she needed to help. She wasn't indecisive. She initially said no, then changed her mind. She even gave a pretty good speech that shows the good qualities of Red and how she wasn't a copy of Jaya.
Yeah, because abandoning on responsibility you don't want to do, to return to a different one that you've previously left, but now want to do is great development. And by abandoning the Keep to do her own thing, like Jaya, while still dressing just like Jaya, is really helping Chandra come into her own character.
Well yes, that is correct.
Superman, though, at least has the benefit of being an ideal. Jace is very close to being wishfulfillment.
That said, Jacetus League is fine. It calls it out for exactly what it is, a lazy piggy back on super hero team movies as the story starts taking its cues from comics instead of fantasy novels. It sticks, and if they didn't want it to they wouldn't have made it so obvious nor chosen such a weak official name.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I've always said Jace has what I like to call:"the John cena effect",which is what you described.
Of course wizards will go with the Coca Cola classic ploy.Replace something well liked with something not as good,so they can get huge praise for bringing "it" back.
It's entirely justifiable; even Wizards knew they were borrowing an existing idea. They wanted to ride that wave. Getting angry/annoyed/salty over it is contradictory behavior. Marvel/DC/any creative established field should have sued them. C'mon just be mature about it, MaRo and Co.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Lore wise, Jace has appeared in Four blocks plus Origins. Before Origins, he was only in two blocks (Zen and RTR). He's just appeared repeatedly as a core set walker. SOI is the set that put Jace over the top in terms of appearances, otherwise he'd have been tied with Ajani, Elspeth AND Gideon.
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I can see not liking it. But labeling it "offensive" seems hyperbolic and childish.
Precisely this. I don't think it's limited to Jace-backlash, either. I think the name is wielded as a mocking term by those who just don't like Magic jumping on the superhero wagon in general. To which I totally agree. It feels exploitative. Gimmicky.
Magic has its own more traditional fantasy thing going for it. I'd rather not see it change its identity to piggyback on a different genre's success. Do you know who already does the Avengers well? The Avengers. Magic, meanwhile, isn't a comic franchise, and Wizards should stick to doing what *they* do well and not try to make Magic's format a mediocre copy of what it isn't. Because mediocrity is the most it can aspire to if it follows this path and tries to play in another genre's arena.
(Whether Magic was ever more than mediocre at storytelling to begin with is a matter some may prefer to argue. I maintain that it has shown flashes of brilliance.)
Jace is fine also, they did the mistake of promoting him a bit too much which led to over-exposure, and over-exposure can easily draw criticism and become the PR target for everything. Maro defended that a bit too harshly which could have led to further frustration that Jace was forced on the game. When he says that people playing Zelda expect Link to naturally appear, it's not a sound comparison. Link was the main protagonist of Zelda games from day one, unlike Jace.
To be complete, I'm not a US comics fan at all and am completely oblivious to all these mega-budget blockbusters, so I'm more annoyed by the fact they want to position the Magic storyline like in the comics, but this is another story. But let's not censor ourselves. If I keep hearing an overused joke around, I'll just stop caring, I won't ask people to stop.
Remember our old walker rule? Whereby people use small jace to kill JTMS? Or how about the old comedy whereby Jace is always better than Chandra (this has since changed a little, but not without social media pressure on wizards).
History has shown (like the Chandra vs Jace debacle) that people can influence what Wizards create in the future, and that includes our storyline. Without any pressure, would we have the awesome Chandra, Pyromaster compared to Jace, the Living Guildpact? Would Pros and other players alike stand united to ask for temporary status quo on Platinum? Or how about a Modern Pro Tour? Didn't we ask for an artifact walker (other than Tezz) years ago? Yea, and we got the awesome Daretti.
Constant reminders (via social media) can affect how things are done within Wizards. You can say that MaRo, a Marvel fan, was influenced to the extent of having a League of heroes, hence the Gatewatch. Therefore people calling Jacetus League, whether tongue-in-cheek, mockery, or perhaps truthfully, shouldn't be dismissed as merely terrorism on Lore. Saying Jace isn't prevalent is kinda disingenuous.
One thing is definite for sure. Jace is always IN season.
Or perhaps Gatewatch is indeed a horrible name after all.
References:
]http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&subtype=+[%22Jace%22]
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
-Chandra Nalaar
People need to remember just because we have had these characters for years and WE have been talking about them for years we have gotten almost no story on the majority of them with Jace FINALLY taking the lead in stories with SOI. So I feel it is jumping to conclusions because while we only had 5 years with the Weatherlight we had more than 5 stories considering the state of stories then and now.
Literally everything he mentioned happened, at least in part, during Tempest block.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Art is life itself.
As for being disrespectful, well, I'll start respecting the Gatewatch just as soon as they start deserving it.
Unfortunately, we've already been told the forum censor software can't be used to auto-replace "Jacetus League" with "Gatewatch"
Hilarity would have ensued.
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Art is life itself.
Imagine if it did it with this thread title. "Should Gatewatch be banned?" That would have made for an interesting topic.
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
that would be opening up a whole nother can of worms...
Click the pic for more info.
Then you get Chandra's lack of depth (Fire!, I'm angry and indecisive!), the retconning of Nissa's past (I liked racist Nissa), and you are left with Gideon being the only semi interesting walker in the group, with the whole tragic hero thing going on. But then you see Gideon's super plot armor in BFZ and... it's boring again. I'm supposed to believe a he was stabbed by a goblin, but can hold off Eldrazi tentacles without harm? It's not like he got much more rest between the two events. The whole of the Gatewatch club was poorly thought out and done, and suffers a lot of negative attention. Thus the Jacetus League.
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
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Chandra was pretty well written. There was very little 'angry' stuff. Also Jace had flaws, he sucks with interpersonal relationships and his telepathy was a no-sell against the Eldrazi.
"Chandra, drop what's currently important to you and join us!"
"No! I must stay here, it's where I belong, even if I'm still coming to grips with my new found responsibilities." A few months later.... "Guys, I totally blew off people who relied on me, abandoned what was important to me at the time, to come help! Let's light stuff on fire!"
Kiora has a far better personality with much less story about her. Chandra desperately needs some character growth, but that can be said about several of the walkers right now.
Jace vs Eldrazi was one of the first times we see him actually have a real weakness. It was a nice change of pace. Him being saved by Zada was quite humorous. But then he comes up with a plan to kill one Titan, which is ruined by both Ob and Kozi's emergence in the story. He then comes up with a new plan, completely on the fly, and kills two Eldrazi. Just when things where starting to look good for the return of Zendikar story, it was all conveniently solved, loose ends tied up, and the plane's story resolved. Emmy isn't there, and Nissa has kick started the healing process, which is some how probably going to out pace Dominaria's healing for no reason at all. We need some tension. Elspeth dying was fantastic, along with Ajani's anger and turn against the God's. Phyrexia winning, Venser's death, Karn abandoning the plane, and Koth's futile resistance makes for a far better story than the Gatewatch arch.
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
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Did you read the story? Chandra got some chraracter development and realized that she couldn't just stay in the monestary, she needed to help. She wasn't indecisive. She initially said no, then changed her mind. She even gave a pretty good speech that shows the good qualities of Red and how she wasn't a copy of Jaya.
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ