So, Vedalken are native to Kaladesh? Wizards is trying really hard to forget Esper, aren't they? :/
Can't Vedalken be native to multiple planes? Humans and elves seem to be.
That's not the point. The point is that Kaladesh and Esper are already very close aesthetically. Filigree, ather-made metal, technocracy etc. Every additional detail that is shared between Esper and Kaladesh just blurs the line even further.
I think the color palette makes a huge difference between the worlds. Esper is drab, mostly blues and grays. Kaladesh is bright, with a full range, so that despite the similarities they don't even look alike on that level.
I mean, I get what you're saying. I would have preferred south asian-esque races.
Don't Vedalken have four arms? That's very South Asian-esque as far as I'm concerned; a lot of mythology from that region has creatures and deities with four or more arms. Including multiple faces and legs.
I too feel that Naga would have been a much better fit than Elves, like "so much obviously better I can't believe Wizard's was lazy enough to go with Elves for the umpteenth time" better. Sometimes I think that Wizard's really needs a shot of fresh blood in the creative department. This is Magic after all - there is a plethora of untapped potential out there in the Multiverse, so why Elves?!
Don't Vedalken have four arms? That's very South Asian-esque as far as I'm concerned; a lot of mythology from that region has creatures and deities with four or more arms. Including multiple faces and legs.
I too feel that Naga would have been a much better fit than Elves, like "so much obviously better I can't believe Wizard's was lazy enough to go with Elves for the umpteenth time" better. Sometimes I think that Wizard's really needs a shot of fresh blood in the creative department. This is Magic after all - there is a plethora of untapped potential out there in the Multiverse, so why Elves?!
Only some planes have Vedalken with four arms. Baan certainly does not.
Don't Vedalken have four arms? That's very South Asian-esque as far as I'm concerned; a lot of mythology from that region has creatures and deities with four or more arms. Including multiple faces and legs.
Mirran Vedalken have four arms. Having a humanoid race of blue, four-armed creatures is... culturally insensitive. I'd recommend reading this.
I too feel that Naga would have been a much better fit than Elves, like "so much obviously better I can't believe Wizard's was lazy enough to go with Elves for the umpteenth time" better. Sometimes I think that Wizard's really needs a shot of fresh blood in the creative department. This is Magic after all - there is a plethora of untapped potential out there in the Multiverse, so why Elves?!
Well, two things.
First, it's understandable when you consider this is a bottom-up set. They likely have some sort of elf tribal component, or just had elves in generically, before the South Asian theme was settled on.
Second, they do actually have fresh blood! Chris L'Etoile has been on staff for a few months now, and he's the one who wrote the new article. He's one of the story people behind a ton of Bioware games (Mass Effect 1 & 2, for instance). I think we're going to see the story make a turn for the better now that the growing pains of the first year are out of the way. Kaladesh is the first set fully conceptualized in the new paradigm.
Having a humanoid race of blue, four-armed creatures is... culturally insensitive. I'd recommend reading this.
Wouldn't this be a problem for basically anything taken from South Asian religions?
I don't think you're going to see many specifically South Asian inspired creatures for exactly this reason. For the most part unless its something well established in fantasy already Wizards borrows only from religions without any living followers (no one cares about neo-pagans).
Don't Vedalken have four arms? That's very South Asian-esque as far as I'm concerned; a lot of mythology from that region has creatures and deities with four or more arms. Including multiple faces and legs.
Mirran Vedalken have four arms. Having a humanoid race of blue, four-armed creatures is... culturally insensitive. I'd recommend reading this.
Oh yeah, I remember the cultural fallout when Kamigawa was released. Or when Innistrad based the planes' religion on christianity sprinkled with pop-culture references.
I mean I get it, Wizards wants to make money and tries hard to not get someone on the wrong foot, but that doesn't mean that four-armed Vedalken would have been inherently insensitive.
Or when Innistrad based the planes' religion on christianity sprinkled with pop-culture references.
The Faith of Avacyn only really resembles Christianity in that both love stained glass. Sure the influence is obvious but there's almost nothing you can point to that is taken directly from Christianity specifically.
Don't Vedalken have four arms? That's very South Asian-esque as far as I'm concerned; a lot of mythology from that region has creatures and deities with four or more arms. Including multiple faces and legs.
Mirran Vedalken have four arms. Having a humanoid race of blue, four-armed creatures is... culturally insensitive. I'd recommend reading this.
Oh yeah, I remember the cultural fallout when Kamigawa was released. Or when Innistrad based the planes' religion on christianity sprinkled with pop-culture references.
I mean I get it, Wizards wants to make money and tries hard to not get someone on the wrong foot, but that doesn't mean that four-armed Vedalken would have been inherently insensitive.
Agreed, and especially when it comes to a religion like Hinduism, where it is so intertwined with the culture and history of the country that it can be difficult to separate the two. I'm Indian, and raised Hindu, and if I were to try to design an Indian-inspired fantasy set without referencing Hinduism, I'd have a hell of a time trying to do that, and I'm not sure the end result would necessarily be better for it.
In Glen Cook's fantasy series, The Black Company, there is a setting named Taglios, which strongly correlates to South Asia in terms of its' inspirations. The gods and religions are reminiscient of Hindu gods and practices, and the man did his research--I was pleasantly surprised to see detailed, faithful references to specific myths beyond the most obvious ones available within the setting. Taglios took inspiration from Indian society, both the good and bad of it, and the world was stronger for it.
If you create a setting and spend your time trying to tiptoe around the things that make that steting unique in real life, I think you run the risk of either creating a shallow world, or else one that doesn't actually evoke the setting you're taking inspiration from. A four-armed vedalken wouldn't have even registered in my mind as being possibly offensive. Innistrad's Church of Avacyn was allowed to be as detailed and evocative as it was because it took inspiration from Christianity in our own world, and the inquisition was a warped version of real historical events. Taking inspiration from a culture is not inherently culutrally insensitive.
On Elves: TBH I like the elves cause they give a more natural vibe to Kaladesh than Esper did, which also help separate the two. Since these elves seem to embrace artifacts they are also different in flavor from Mirrodin. I don't think naga would have given us this feel. Also we don't know all the races yet, with the page only list humans and elves, vedalken from our new planeswalker and some art and dwarfs* in art. We still don't know blacks common race (vampire, zombie or new?) or if white common race is just gonna be humans. We could see a few more South Asian influenced races. I also like like the new designs on the vedalken.
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Oh yeah, I remember the cultural fallout when Kamigawa was released. Or when Innistrad based the planes' religion on christianity sprinkled with pop-culture references.
I mean I get it, Wizards wants to make money and tries hard to not get someone on the wrong foot, but that doesn't mean that four-armed Vedalken would have been inherently insensitive.
To be clear, I just linked to the blog of a Hindu priest who said it was problematic, but not outright offensive. It's not about referencing Hinduism, the problem would be using the imagery of Hindu gods as a random fantasy race to be 'exotic', especially when there already so many good South Asian folklore races to choose from. Making your own spin on it is fine, but as Talinthas says the four-armed vedalken would have been a bit too on the nose.
Kamigawa was a bottom up deep dive into Shintoism and Japanese culture. If Innistrad had Sorin crucify Avacyn, I bet you there would have been a different story. Kaladesh, as it stands, is Mirrodin/Esper 3.0 with a South Asian skin.
Oh! I should also note I updated the OP, and will keep it updated with relevant links. If you all aren't following the Kaladesh consulate on facebook and twitter, you probably should. Seems like it'll be another Hanweir Chronicle.
Don't Vedalken have four arms? That's very South Asian-esque as far as I'm concerned; a lot of mythology from that region has creatures and deities with four or more arms. Including multiple faces and legs.
Mirran Vedalken have four arms. Having a humanoid race of blue, four-armed creatures is... culturally insensitive. I'd recommend reading this.
Oh yeah, I remember the cultural fallout when Kamigawa was released. Or when Innistrad based the planes' religion on christianity sprinkled with pop-culture references.
I mean I get it, Wizards wants to make money and tries hard to not get someone on the wrong foot, but that doesn't mean that four-armed Vedalken would have been inherently insensitive.
Well, I mean, Magic already went through it's "Devil Worshipping" phase. That kind of backlash is unlikely to come up a second time. And to my knowledge, Japan is not a terribly religious country, with Shinto being more the backbone of traditions than a system of faith (though I could be horribly wrong, I'm not an expert). India is a bit of a different story.
Having a humanoid race of blue, four-armed creatures is... culturally insensitive. I'd recommend reading this.
That was an interesting article, thank you very much for the link.
I didn't think that a four-armed Vedalken on Kaladesh would be considered insensitive from a cultural standpoint. I simply saw them as a form of complimentary artistic expression; much the same way that angels, devils, demons, elves and the Theros deities borrow from the real world but are otherwise used in Magic to build worlds and stories. Those creatures are tied heavily to many different cultures and beliefs, which are no more or less valid than any other belief system.
It's a very hard, blurred line between fantasy and the cultural beliefs of others when it comes to creating and expanding on Magic. As I am not a Hindu myself, I have no say in what would be considered appropriate and respectful. At which exact point do we go from respectful creativity and inspiration to culture theft and malign influence of expression? I do not know.
You've given me quite a lot to think about, I enjoy the stimulation that comes from new perceptions and perspectives.
To be clear, I just linked to the blog of a Hindu priest who said it was problematic, but not outright offensive.
The same guy who is complaining about this. One can't even get away with a silly pun anymore
As for the PWs in this block, for some reason I expect a (B/R) Chandra/Liliana pair. This would free the spots for other color pairs.
(B/R): Chandra Liliana (W/U): Dovin (U/R) or (G/U): Saheeli
Yeah, that's rather extreme of a thing to imply. Sometimes a spade is a spade, a pun a pun, devoid of anything more.
I'm also not sure I agree with "someone could be offended" as being a terribly valid concern, people get offended about any number of things. That being said I don't think making the Veldaken four armed here isn't something to potentially be concerned over, but at the same time I'm not sure that there would be widespread offense taken by that.
I'm also not sure I agree with "someone could be offended" as being a terribly valid concern, people get offended about any number of things.
Wizards doesn't care if some rando gets angry, I imagine that happens every set. However Wizards gets nothing by doing things that come off as insulting or disrespectful. They definitely have a policy against referencing actively practiced religions.
That being said I don't think making the Veldaken four armed here isn't something to potentially be concerned over, but at the same time I'm not sure that there would be widespread offense taken by that.
I would be really shocked to. Vedalken were clearly not created as a reference to Hindu deities.
I could see legitimate offense being taken to a card clearly meant to represented a Hindu-esque deity with colorful skin and lots of arms, though, so we're probably not getting anything like that.
Yeah, that's generally my stance. I think depicting the gods themselves is more likely to offend than something that is in the realm of it. Art is a big part of culture, and that's an aspect of their art that is pretty iconic to most people with a less informed stance on the area.
My biggest question at this point of time is how or why does that Vedalken (Vaan, whatever his name is can't remember now) enlist the Gatewatch, and how does he even get to know them at all?
Have you read the Magic Story Homesick? It sort of explained there that Jace sent out information (through Tamiyo and then through her Planeswalker contacts and other ways) about the Gatewatch and that's how Dovin got to know about them.
Although there seems to be a clash on what Dovin is looking out for than what the Gatewatch stands for as a group.
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Yep, That post of mine was before I headed to Wizards site. (I skipped pretty much the entire Conspiracy 2 stories; not too interested) Now I know.
Ok, no more question from me, although now I'm a bit worried about what's going to be the actual point of conflict for this block. Oh well, let's wait for next week.
Just something I noticed in the arts, and didn't saw anyone talking about: The vedalken always had 6 fingers in their hands, or only the Kaladeshi ones?
I mean, I get what you're saying. I would have preferred south asian-esque races.
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[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
I too feel that Naga would have been a much better fit than Elves, like "so much obviously better I can't believe Wizard's was lazy enough to go with Elves for the umpteenth time" better. Sometimes I think that Wizard's really needs a shot of fresh blood in the creative department. This is Magic after all - there is a plethora of untapped potential out there in the Multiverse, so why Elves?!
Only some planes have Vedalken with four arms. Baan certainly does not.
Well, two things.
First, it's understandable when you consider this is a bottom-up set. They likely have some sort of elf tribal component, or just had elves in generically, before the South Asian theme was settled on.
Second, they do actually have fresh blood! Chris L'Etoile has been on staff for a few months now, and he's the one who wrote the new article. He's one of the story people behind a ton of Bioware games (Mass Effect 1 & 2, for instance). I think we're going to see the story make a turn for the better now that the growing pains of the first year are out of the way. Kaladesh is the first set fully conceptualized in the new paradigm.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Wouldn't this be a problem for basically anything taken from South Asian religions?
I don't think you're going to see many specifically South Asian inspired creatures for exactly this reason. For the most part unless its something well established in fantasy already Wizards borrows only from religions without any living followers (no one cares about neo-pagans).
Oh yeah, I remember the cultural fallout when Kamigawa was released. Or when Innistrad based the planes' religion on christianity sprinkled with pop-culture references.
I mean I get it, Wizards wants to make money and tries hard to not get someone on the wrong foot, but that doesn't mean that four-armed Vedalken would have been inherently insensitive.
The Faith of Avacyn only really resembles Christianity in that both love stained glass. Sure the influence is obvious but there's almost nothing you can point to that is taken directly from Christianity specifically.
Agreed, and especially when it comes to a religion like Hinduism, where it is so intertwined with the culture and history of the country that it can be difficult to separate the two. I'm Indian, and raised Hindu, and if I were to try to design an Indian-inspired fantasy set without referencing Hinduism, I'd have a hell of a time trying to do that, and I'm not sure the end result would necessarily be better for it.
In Glen Cook's fantasy series, The Black Company, there is a setting named Taglios, which strongly correlates to South Asia in terms of its' inspirations. The gods and religions are reminiscient of Hindu gods and practices, and the man did his research--I was pleasantly surprised to see detailed, faithful references to specific myths beyond the most obvious ones available within the setting. Taglios took inspiration from Indian society, both the good and bad of it, and the world was stronger for it.
If you create a setting and spend your time trying to tiptoe around the things that make that steting unique in real life, I think you run the risk of either creating a shallow world, or else one that doesn't actually evoke the setting you're taking inspiration from. A four-armed vedalken wouldn't have even registered in my mind as being possibly offensive. Innistrad's Church of Avacyn was allowed to be as detailed and evocative as it was because it took inspiration from Christianity in our own world, and the inquisition was a warped version of real historical events. Taking inspiration from a culture is not inherently culutrally insensitive.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Kamigawa was a bottom up deep dive into Shintoism and Japanese culture. If Innistrad had Sorin crucify Avacyn, I bet you there would have been a different story. Kaladesh, as it stands, is Mirrodin/Esper 3.0 with a South Asian skin.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Well, I mean, Magic already went through it's "Devil Worshipping" phase. That kind of backlash is unlikely to come up a second time. And to my knowledge, Japan is not a terribly religious country, with Shinto being more the backbone of traditions than a system of faith (though I could be horribly wrong, I'm not an expert). India is a bit of a different story.
I didn't think that a four-armed Vedalken on Kaladesh would be considered insensitive from a cultural standpoint. I simply saw them as a form of complimentary artistic expression; much the same way that angels, devils, demons, elves and the Theros deities borrow from the real world but are otherwise used in Magic to build worlds and stories. Those creatures are tied heavily to many different cultures and beliefs, which are no more or less valid than any other belief system.
It's a very hard, blurred line between fantasy and the cultural beliefs of others when it comes to creating and expanding on Magic. As I am not a Hindu myself, I have no say in what would be considered appropriate and respectful. At which exact point do we go from respectful creativity and inspiration to culture theft and malign influence of expression? I do not know.
You've given me quite a lot to think about, I enjoy the stimulation that comes from new perceptions and perspectives.
Cheers!
The same guy who is complaining about this. One can't even get away with a silly pun anymore
As for the PWs in this block, for some reason I expect a (B/R) Chandra/Liliana pair. This would free the spots for other color pairs.
(B/R): Chandra Liliana
(W/U): Dovin
(U/R) or (G/U): Saheeli
Saheeli is confirmed UR.
Yeah, that's rather extreme of a thing to imply. Sometimes a spade is a spade, a pun a pun, devoid of anything more.
I'm also not sure I agree with "someone could be offended" as being a terribly valid concern, people get offended about any number of things. That being said I don't think making the Veldaken four armed here isn't something to potentially be concerned over, but at the same time I'm not sure that there would be widespread offense taken by that.
Wizards doesn't care if some rando gets angry, I imagine that happens every set. However Wizards gets nothing by doing things that come off as insulting or disrespectful. They definitely have a policy against referencing actively practiced religions.
I would be really shocked to. Vedalken were clearly not created as a reference to Hindu deities.
I could see legitimate offense being taken to a card clearly meant to represented a Hindu-esque deity with colorful skin and lots of arms, though, so we're probably not getting anything like that.
But maybe a card like "Kaladeshi Dance Number"?
Although there seems to be a clash on what Dovin is looking out for than what the Gatewatch stands for as a group.
Serra Stan - Angel Enthusiast - Garruk and Tyvar thirsty follower - Flavor and Art Enthusiast
Ok, no more question from me, although now I'm a bit worried about what's going to be the actual point of conflict for this block. Oh well, let's wait for next week.