We were on Dominaria in Magic Origins. It's not that they're afraid to visit, it's that it dominated Magic's story for over half the game's life, and they wanted to explore new planes. But Bolas, Karn and Liliana are all Dominarian main characters.
Because, as a setting, Dominaria doesn't have a "hook"; something that makes it thematically distinct from any other plane that might be visited. There's a huge number of present and past civilizations and cultures rooted in Dominaria that make it difficult to label it in one sentence like newer planes are. For example, Innistrad is the "horror world", Tarkir is the "Asian world", Theros is "Greek Mythology land", and so on.
I don't like the parade of shallow, gimmick planes, but it's what the marketing department wants. World-building that is conceptually familiar and easy to mentally digest makes for more sales.
I haven't seen Maro's writings, what's problematic about Dominaria from a design standpoint?
Basically, it's too big and too well-developed for modern set design. They like each world to be boiled down to a single theme that can easily be pitched in like five words or less. Theros is "ancient Greece world." Innistrad is "gothic horror world." Khans is "eastern world with time traveling." Ravnica is "the city of guilds." Maro has indicated this kind of shallowness is seen as a good thing by Wizards, because marketing trumps everything. And you just can't sum up Dominaria so easily because, well, look at all the places there. It has whole continents with different themes. The world design is just too deep. It's not easily marketable, so outside of a few passing mentions in Origins due to Liliana's backstory (which carefully avoided interacting with the Dominarian plot too much), they just don't want to work on it.
Put another way, the reason players love it is the reason Wizards hates it. They'll probably return eventually, if only due to player demand, but it's likely to be a very limited thing, kept to a single location (sort of like the Otaria plotline, or even worse, like the "plot" to Seventh Edition), and without any reference to the established plot (because they don't want to burden players with any more than basic established backstory).
I always perceived Dominaria as being the default classic fantasy setting, as if it had been directly ported from D&D or something. If they need a plane-specific story for Dominaria, can't they always find some way to resurrect the whole Weatherlight thing that basically ran between Weatherlight (the set) and Apocalypse?
The problem isn't 'can they' but more 'if they do will the people clamoring for a return to Dominaria be happy?'. If we return to Dominaria and it is a boiled down version of one of its many themes there will be plenty of people upset, and if your upsetting the people who are the whole reason you're doing the return why return at all?
The Weatherlight story spanned 3 different planes and we never got a 'good' look at any part of Dominaria during because of the constant travel and invasion occurring. To see the contrast between different settings look at Onslaught/Odyssey blocks, Prophecy set, Mirage block, and the few cards in Timespiral block that show the landscape and people(not time-shifted people the current inhabitants),
I know that decisions like this tend to draw a lot of negativity, but honestly it's not hard for me to believe that a setting for, say, an epic fantasy novel and a setting for a TCG expansion have different needs, and an element that's an asset for one can be a liability for the other.
Like, if Game of Thrones were just set in Mongol steppes world, or Hadrian's Wall with ice zombies world, or Viking world, or whatever, it would be considerably diminished from what it is, a story set in a complex world that includes all of those things. I don't believe, however, that it follows that Magic is lessened by primarily sticking to settings that can be summarized in simple terms like those.
Magic's storytelling potential might be limited by that choice (to what extent the concept of the multiverse may ameliorate that problem is another debate), and that's understandably frustrating to some players, especially here on the Storyline forum. But Magic is first and foremost a game, and experience has me convinced that worlds with clear, easily articulated hooks are a significant positive for design and for on-card creative elements. It may come at some cost to the richness of the story, but I think that embracing the sci-fi trope of single-theme worlds has proven to benefit the actual game.
It's not out of the question that they go to one portion of Dominaria. Dominaria is kind of like a microcosm of the multiverse. Where other planes are single sentence trope planes Dominaria has continents like that. Shiv is volcanic dragon land, Tolaria is academic heaven, etc etc.
The issue is more the story writing than the size of the world. Zendikar is supposed to be rather large, Jace walking feels more like a plot hole. Although the amount of time is unspecified, nor is the time Gideon spent raising his army.
As for Innistrad, the part we are in are 4 provinces. They should be only a few days wide. There is a lot more to the plane than we see.
The issue is more the story writing than the size of the world. Zendikar is supposed to be rather large, Jace walking feels more like a plot hole. Although the amount of time is unspecified, nor is the time Gideon spent raising his army.
As for Innistrad, the part we are in are 4 provinces. They should be only a few days wide. There is a lot more to the plane than we see.
Just a quick note on Zendikar. Nissa and Sorin basically walked to Akoum as well, and it took a couple weeks. Jace planeswalks back to Sea Gate afterward, so the travel time is cut in half.
And you're 100% correct on Innistrad, it's straight up said there is more to the plane than we see. That's true for most planes, actually.
I feel that it seems like they like designing new worls that fit into how they design blocks now. "design some kind of problem then have planeswalkers solve it". Plus they've been to Dominaria so many times now that I guess they like bringing us to new worlds.
not saying that they can't bring new problems to the world but I dunno what else to think
I seem to remember Maro saying that if they were writing the early stories of Magic all over again, the events that took place on Dominaria would now take place on separate planes. And although Planeswalkers have always been a central part of the story, they are now much more visible halo characters / products of the whole game itself. And how do you emphasise to players that Planeswalkers are important if they don't have to, well, planeswalk?
That, fundamentally, is what I think their current issue with returning to Dominaria is; it draws back to a time and a form of story-telling that they don't want to tell any more, when the game was quite different to how it is now. I get the sense that they think of anything that's pre-mending, pre-eighth edition, and pre-planeswalker cards as a part of Magic's history that, while important, is no longer relevant. It's ok to bring it up in small doses from time to time for nostalgia reasons for the older players, but there's no desire to give it a major focus again.
The only reason to have a setting like Dominaria is if you want to tell a single continuous story. Wizards doesn't want to do that, probably because its a ton of extra work for minimal reward. By compartmentalizing the stories the details don't snowball into something like A Song of Ice and Fire. Instead they can pull in story threads when they want to use them.
Another strike against focusing on Dominaria is that it defeats the whole purpose of having a multiverse. It would be like if in Star Trek every week the characters decided that they were not going to use their spaceship but then randomly encounter events exactly like being on a spaceship. You'd rightfully complain that the characters should just use the spaceship if its so important. Now maybe you'll say "the characters wouldn't have to spend all their time there" in which case its not clear what the point of Dominaria is at all. It can't even be like "home" since we'd like to have characters from various planes.
Dominaria is simply too diverse. To put it context, it'll be like having an EDH Pro Tour - we enfranchised players are going to be amazed by it, but it doesn't change the fact it is going to be quite the incoherent mess.
Players don't feel too comfortable when they don't know what to expect, even on Innistrad, people were at least prepared for the Horror Tropes to come running at full-speed. Generic-Fantasy World doesn't quite cut it anymore (Shandalar was a similar victim), let alone one that was ravaged by the likes of oldwalkers and time rifts. I guess, a truly post-apocalyptic world would still be a fit for the plane (technically Time Spiral was that, but it was somewhat between post-apocalyptic and another apocalypse plot still happening right now, hence all that confusion), but then what would be the plot?
It would also be a good place to print "nephilim" colored factions with the excuse that the cataclysmic events of the mending devoided some regions of a color of mana altogether.
This.
This would actually be a fantastic way to return to Dominaria and a fantastic way to actually do four-color (but still keep it light on four-color cards [more "this faction doesn't have this color" and less "this faction is these four colors"]).
I guess, a truly post-apocalyptic world would still be a fit for the plane (technically Time Spiral was that, but it was somewhat between post-apocalyptic and another apocalypse plot still happening right now, hence all that confusion), but then what would be the plot?
That's the thing. Time Spiral wasn't really "post-apocalypse" so much as it was "post-mini-apocalypses/preventing the real apocalypse." The return would be the real post-apocalyptic setting.
While I totally get what you mean, this phrasing destroys my mind trying to figure out what it means.
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As an aside, and I'm going to leave the initial calculating to those who consider themselves more versed in the storyline, how would you rank the known planes in terms of least populated to most populated? I mean, there's clearly more lives at stake if the Eldrazi attacked Dominaria or Ravninca versus Innistrad or Kamigawa, but that's extremes. Is Kamigawa more or less populated than Lorwyn? What about Alara?
They should just give Dominaria a theme that fits with its current state. Such as, say, the "ruin" world, somewhat like Zendikar, except more ruins and less adventure (and treasure).
I would love it if Dominara became the post-apocalyptic world. That would be an awesome hook.
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Given the Dominaria doesn't have a gimmick or theme it does seem less likely for them to go back to it in a normal set but I could see a return to the plane as part of a plot line. Dominaria has seen most of the multiverses most powerful Planeswalkers and wizards(many of whom could overpower the current power level of walkers), there are plenty of reasons for someone to go back the ruins of the plane: I could see Nicol Bolas going back to retrieve some powerful artifact, or maybe in contains the answers Karn needs to fight the Phyrexians, not to mention some of the things that were hinted at in Timespiral block.
All that said I do think there is also room for Dominaria to be a post-apocalyptic plane given the strain it's mana has undergone over the yeas, something similar to the Mana Wastes from Pathfinder.
Also, the Plane contains possibly the biggest threat the multiverse has ever know: The Thrulls of Ebon Hand!
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If the experience of relatively new players is anything like mine, Dominaria just doesn't seem that interesting. The past glories of Dominaria are... past glories.
Nowadays all I know of Dominaria is it's the place that Urza fought the Phyrexians over, and that it's now mostly a blasted hellscape. There are quite a few of those across the multiverse.
If we're going back to old planes from before I joined the game, I want to see what New Phyrexia is up to now: I only saw a little of it because I joined around Scars of Mirrodin.
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If the experience of relatively new players is anything like mine, Dominaria just doesn't seem that interesting. The past glories of Dominaria are... past glories.
Nowadays all I know of Dominaria is it's the place that Urza fought the Phyrexians over, and that it's now mostly a blasted hellscape.
Actually, this story shows that Dominaria has pretty much healed.
I stand by the reasoning that Dominaria is just too diverse and too big plane. Basically, almost each larger continent on Dominaria could serve as a single plane setting. It lacks an unifying feature that would make it FEEL like a modern, clearly cut plane.
Look at Time Spiral block, where they actually had to use a different unifying theme - showing the rifts and the devastation of known places. And even at that they got many people lost, because except buffs and flavor nerds like us, people just did not get the references.
Look at Origins, where the "Dominaria" cards are totally generic, and basically we know they are Dominarian only because Wizards told us they are (Cleric of the Forward Order, Blood-Cursed Knight). They even failed to place Liliana's origin to any known place, choosing an unheard-of name instead. And the question is, why choosing a necessarily generic plane, when they can use the more distinct and more resonant ones?
And the longer they are holding back from Dominaria, the less people will remember it, and the less incentive there would be to return.
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Look at Origins, where the "Dominaria" cards are totally generic, and basically we know they are Dominarian only because Wizards told us they are (Cleric of the Forward Order, Blood-Cursed Knight). They even failed to place Liliana's origin to any known place, choosing an unheard-of name instead. And the question is, why choosing a necessarily generic plane, when they can use the more distinct and more resonant ones?
I noticed they got the name of the area from the web comic with the first version of Liliana story. I also think they set her in a unheard of area to avoid timeline issues/conflicing with other events.
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I don't like the parade of shallow, gimmick planes, but it's what the marketing department wants. World-building that is conceptually familiar and easy to mentally digest makes for more sales.
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Innistrad was the first plane she walked to. Dominaria is her home plane.
Like, if Game of Thrones were just set in Mongol steppes world, or Hadrian's Wall with ice zombies world, or Viking world, or whatever, it would be considerably diminished from what it is, a story set in a complex world that includes all of those things. I don't believe, however, that it follows that Magic is lessened by primarily sticking to settings that can be summarized in simple terms like those.
Magic's storytelling potential might be limited by that choice (to what extent the concept of the multiverse may ameliorate that problem is another debate), and that's understandably frustrating to some players, especially here on the Storyline forum. But Magic is first and foremost a game, and experience has me convinced that worlds with clear, easily articulated hooks are a significant positive for design and for on-card creative elements. It may come at some cost to the richness of the story, but I think that embracing the sci-fi trope of single-theme worlds has proven to benefit the actual game.
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[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
As for Innistrad, the part we are in are 4 provinces. They should be only a few days wide. There is a lot more to the plane than we see.
And you're 100% correct on Innistrad, it's straight up said there is more to the plane than we see. That's true for most planes, actually.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
not saying that they can't bring new problems to the world but I dunno what else to think
That, fundamentally, is what I think their current issue with returning to Dominaria is; it draws back to a time and a form of story-telling that they don't want to tell any more, when the game was quite different to how it is now. I get the sense that they think of anything that's pre-mending, pre-eighth edition, and pre-planeswalker cards as a part of Magic's history that, while important, is no longer relevant. It's ok to bring it up in small doses from time to time for nostalgia reasons for the older players, but there's no desire to give it a major focus again.
Another strike against focusing on Dominaria is that it defeats the whole purpose of having a multiverse. It would be like if in Star Trek every week the characters decided that they were not going to use their spaceship but then randomly encounter events exactly like being on a spaceship. You'd rightfully complain that the characters should just use the spaceship if its so important. Now maybe you'll say "the characters wouldn't have to spend all their time there" in which case its not clear what the point of Dominaria is at all. It can't even be like "home" since we'd like to have characters from various planes.
Players don't feel too comfortable when they don't know what to expect, even on Innistrad, people were at least prepared for the Horror Tropes to come running at full-speed. Generic-Fantasy World doesn't quite cut it anymore (Shandalar was a similar victim), let alone one that was ravaged by the likes of oldwalkers and time rifts. I guess, a truly post-apocalyptic world would still be a fit for the plane (technically Time Spiral was that, but it was somewhat between post-apocalyptic and another apocalypse plot still happening right now, hence all that confusion), but then what would be the plot?
This.
This would actually be a fantastic way to return to Dominaria and a fantastic way to actually do four-color (but still keep it light on four-color cards [more "this faction doesn't have this color" and less "this faction is these four colors"]).
That's the thing. Time Spiral wasn't really "post-apocalypse" so much as it was "post-mini-apocalypses/preventing the real apocalypse." The return would be the real post-apocalyptic setting.
While I totally get what you mean, this phrasing destroys my mind trying to figure out what it means.
---
As an aside, and I'm going to leave the initial calculating to those who consider themselves more versed in the storyline, how would you rank the known planes in terms of least populated to most populated? I mean, there's clearly more lives at stake if the Eldrazi attacked Dominaria or Ravninca versus Innistrad or Kamigawa, but that's extremes. Is Kamigawa more or less populated than Lorwyn? What about Alara?
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"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
Can anyone describe Dominaria in any detail, from memory?
All that said I do think there is also room for Dominaria to be a post-apocalyptic plane given the strain it's mana has undergone over the yeas, something similar to the Mana Wastes from Pathfinder.
Also, the Plane contains possibly the biggest threat the multiverse has ever know: The Thrulls of Ebon Hand!
In the yard: RUG Delver, Kiki-Chord, Grixis Twin, Mardu Control, Smallpox, Jeskai Control, Jeskai Delver, Assault Loam, Elves, Deathcloud, Eggs, Storm
Nowadays all I know of Dominaria is it's the place that Urza fought the Phyrexians over, and that it's now mostly a blasted hellscape. There are quite a few of those across the multiverse.
If we're going back to old planes from before I joined the game, I want to see what New Phyrexia is up to now: I only saw a little of it because I joined around Scars of Mirrodin.
Art is life itself.
Actually, this story shows that Dominaria has pretty much healed.
I stand by the reasoning that Dominaria is just too diverse and too big plane. Basically, almost each larger continent on Dominaria could serve as a single plane setting. It lacks an unifying feature that would make it FEEL like a modern, clearly cut plane.
Look at Time Spiral block, where they actually had to use a different unifying theme - showing the rifts and the devastation of known places. And even at that they got many people lost, because except buffs and flavor nerds like us, people just did not get the references.
Look at Origins, where the "Dominaria" cards are totally generic, and basically we know they are Dominarian only because Wizards told us they are (Cleric of the Forward Order, Blood-Cursed Knight). They even failed to place Liliana's origin to any known place, choosing an unheard-of name instead. And the question is, why choosing a necessarily generic plane, when they can use the more distinct and more resonant ones?
And the longer they are holding back from Dominaria, the less people will remember it, and the less incentive there would be to return.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
I noticed they got the name of the area from the web comic with the first version of Liliana story. I also think they set her in a unheard of area to avoid timeline issues/conflicing with other events.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"