I've seen this brought up multiple times but haven't been able to find the 'source'. Several people have mentioned that the Theros Gods believe in one another to increase or sustain their powers, but I can't find anything supporting that in the Uncharted Realms or the E-Books. I don't recall this ever being said and found it strange the first time it was brought up but couldn't find a counter example at the time and let is go. After seeing this same theory on Blogatog it got me thinking about it and I still couldn't find proof one way or the other, this may be due to the awkward navigation of the new sight but if anyone could find the 'source' of this idea or debunk it, this would be helpful in future discussions about the Gods.
It's not the Theros gods who believe in each other, it's the people of Theros who influence the gods.
Part of the reasoning for this theory is from Dreams of the City, where Ashiok basically creates a proto-god. This was later confirmed by Kruphix himself in Kruphix's Insight.
I know its belief from the denizens that the Theros Gods are given form, but I've seen it brought up many times on these forums that the Gods maintain themselves via belief in each other.
This quote from blogatog it what brought up this question again for me.
mrtitanic asked: Given the argument that (1) The Theros pantheon is stable without mortal devotion [gods believe in eachother]; (2) Leaving Theros absolves them of its metaphysical demands for devotion; and (3) Thassa's Bident Dekella was born the same way Thassa was and did not "vanish" when removed from Theros [but remained a potent weapon of divinity] - I believe Thassa as a Planeswalker is valid and I hope she becomes one.
Now we diving into metaphysics. This is way outside my realm, but I enjoy discussing it. : )
The first part is what I call in to question. I've see it mentioned in these forums a number of times but have never seen anything that even alludes to this as part of an official source.
I know its belief from the denizens that the Theros Gods are given form, but I've seen it brought up many times on these forums that the Gods maintain themselves via belief in each other.
This quote from blogatog it what brought up this question again for me.
mrtitanic asked: Given the argument that (1) The Theros pantheon is stable without mortal devotion [gods believe in eachother]; (2) Leaving Theros absolves them of its metaphysical demands for devotion; and (3) Thassa's Bident Dekella was born the same way Thassa was and did not "vanish" when removed from Theros [but remained a potent weapon of divinity] - I believe Thassa as a Planeswalker is valid and I hope she becomes one.
Now we diving into metaphysics. This is way outside my realm, but I enjoy discussing it. : )
The first part is what I call in to question. I've see it mentioned in these forums a number of times but have never seen anything that even alludes to this as part of an official source.
Have you read Godsend? I can't remember where I read it, but the Theros gods acquired sentience. Kruphix mentions that a part of him came into being when someone looked up at the sky and wondered - confirming the gods began as ideas, thoughts and dreams that manifested in Nyx, and coalesced into divine beings. Ashiok later confirmed this with their own experiment.
When Kruphix initiated the Silence, the gods had turned on mortals and then were barred from interacting with them. This harmed their devotion, but they didn't cease to exist because the gods had begun to believe in (as in, began to rival, fear, interact with, etc.) one another. They believed each other (and themselves) to be legitimate beings, and this granted the pantheon an Olympians-style stability. I believe I heard it mentioned also as an explanation for why the gods give themselves and each other Devotion when in play, and why having all 15 out activates them all into creature cards, too. In Godsend, I believe it was Xenagos who either had said it, thought it, or who had progressed with actions (in an attempt at becoming a Theros god himself) which implied this fact about the gods.
Have you read Godsend? I can't remember where I read it, but the Theros gods acquired sentience. Kruphix mentions that a part of him came into being when someone looked up at the sky and wondered - confirming the gods began as ideas, thoughts and dreams that manifested in Nyx, and coalesced into divine beings. Ashiok later confirmed this with their own experiment.
When Kruphix initiated the Silence, the gods had turned on mortals and then were barred from interacting with them. This harmed their devotion, but they didn't cease to exist because the gods had begun to believe in (as in, began to rival, fear, interact with, etc.) one another. They believed each other (and themselves) to be legitimate beings, and this granted the pantheon an Olympians-style stability. I believe I heard it mentioned also as an explanation for why the gods give themselves and each other Devotion when in play, and why having all 15 out activates them all into creature cards, too. In Godsend, I believe it was Xenagos who either had said it, thought it, or who had progressed with actions (in an attempt at becoming a Theros god himself) which implied this fact about the gods.
I've read Godsend before and re-read the pertinent parts recently and can't find anything to support the claim of the Gods having any sort of affect via belief on one another. The reason they didn't all cease to exist during the Silence was because people still believed in them, no one forgot them in the few days they were absent, not even the fickle history of Theros changes that quickly. Also Kruphix's comments allude to there being no kind of Olympian style stability, he said that none of the current Gods were original and he doubted that they would last too long because many Gods had come and gone during his time and he was certain there were Gods before him.
It is still possible I'm missing something, I'm going to do a more in-depth reading of Godsend and all related Uncharted Realms this week, but if anyone can find the exact source and link it, or just say what part of the Ebook it is that would be much appreciated.
Also Maro is not the place to go for lore questions, he himself admits that most of the time.
Likely, he just means that the gods could self-sustain if there were no mortal believers. They change based on Mortal beliefs but would exist in their current state without them, I guess.
But that's not really the case based on everything else we know.
He occasionally says lore things that don't quite work (like the Kor of Rath being from Zendikar).
Also Maro is not the place to go for lore questions, he himself admits that most of the time.
Likely, he just means that the gods could self-sustain if there were no mortal believers. They change based on Mortal beliefs but would exist in their current state without them, I guess.
But that's not really the case based on everything else we know.
He occasionally says lore things that don't quite work (like the Kor of Rath being from Zendikar).
I should have made it obvious I wasn't using Maro as a lore source, he's pretty bad at that, it was just the question asked of him that reminded me of this theory. Also he makes no comment on whether it is true or not specifically saying he doesn't know. Looking back at some of the URs it seems false that the Gods can or do maintain one another via any kind of belief. Though I'm going to continue looking to see if I've missed anything.
So after going through old post from the Uncharted Realms discussion thread I found the first person to mention this was hairlessThoctar
Medomai strongly suggests in the book that the Gods can't be gotten rid of that way anymore because they now believe in each other.
The only quote I could find from Medomai that has any connotation that could mean this is
The people believed, the gods existed, and the trouble began when the gods started believing in each other.
While the quote does imply that the Gods are having some kind of affect on one another with belief it doesn't support them being self sustaining so it can go either way. Also its from a sphinx, who tend to be cryptic jerks giving you just enough information to make your ignorance even more infuriating. The quote is from the second E-book "Journey into Nyx" towards the end of chapter 5, about 35% into book.
Sorry if this counts as a double post and I should have just edited my last post, it being several hours later seemed like it should be a new post.
I'm glad you found that, because it's interesting. Medomai could mean a lot of things though, maybe that the 'trouble' could be that they started to take on lives of their own?
Sorry to intrude, but in regards to what i read about today's article in the MAgic Story section...
A character, specificallyTamiyo, the moon Sage, implies that they were survivors from Serra's Realm, and she has a story about it.
Now, we all know that Serra and Enchantments are associated.
Just a look about some flavor-text Worship, or the strong theme Serra's Sanctum, and the discussion about ideas giving birth to gods...
There might be a connection...well, i suspect that maybe Theros is derivated from Serra's long lost plane, or maybe it was created with similarities
There is no connection, the survivors of Serra's plane were saved by the Weatherlight and brought to Dominaria then the realm collapsed into the powercore of the Weatherlight. Upon its destruction it was freed and Karona traveled there when she left Dominaria.
Yes! That's the quote, by Medomai, which spawned the theory. Remember that what Medomai states about the origin of the gods foreshadows a lot in Godsend and the uncharted realms, but I must stress it specifically explains the origins of the gods, and later confirmed by Kruphix, even the origins of the gods before the present pantheon.
I believe the trouble Medomai is referring to is in fact the stability in the pantheon. Previous gods could be changed, unseated by newly imagined gods, etc. There was variability. But now that the gods believed in one another, they became a stable, more permanent feature of Nyx. They developed history and self-interest. Each a unique personality, each with a goal and a constant dominion over their territory. The Theros pantheon is so self-sustaining, in fact, that it's even come to a point where one god, Heliod, thinks himself as the king of all gods on Theros, and even operates to ensure that status. The gods have even gone to war over which alcove is greatest in the shrine of Nykthos. Basically, the Theros gods have resorted to the petty meddling and squabbles classic to the Greek pantheon which inspired them.
In Godsend, their stability is an issue because the gods have vast power. Thassa almost inundated all the land. Heliod almost killed all marine life with the sun, etc. They were a legitimate threat to mortals without Kruphix intervening.
I must stress that Medomai made these origin claims about the gods during the Silence, when the gods were barred from interacting with mortals and with Theros. A time when their devotion was threatened. A time of mortal questioning.
Then there's the source of why MTG decided to have the lore this way. In real Greek mythology, gods were unseated by new deities all the time. Apollo unseats Gaia and acquires the Delphic Oracle, for example. The Olympians unseat the titans and become a stable pantheon. On Theros, gods are unseat each other until the present pantheon acquires enough sentience and stability to sustain itself (one another). Mortal beliefs shape their behavior, but the gods themselves are ever-present even while changing. Ashiok confirms this, as mortal ideas and dreams "become proto-detities in Nyx all the time, but are assimilated into the respective god-forms that already represent them" or something to that effect. Any love of the sea, or ideas of the ocean's might, or thoughts of a lonely sailor out on the ocean will be assimilated into the already present and stable notion of THASSA, and she will continue to embody all these mortal thoughts. They will not, for example, form a new, proto-deity that competes with Thassa. She will absorb those thoughts and change/adapt based on them, but the shell (no pun intended) of what Thassa will embody will always be there as a stable container that stores every sea-related thought conjured by mortals.
Why? Because even when the mortals are thinking up new ocean-related thoughts, the other gods acknowledge their sister Thassa as the sea goddess, as the one who needs to be bribed so their hero has safe passage in the Dakra (for example), or who should be feared when building a coastal temple, or who is loved by Keranos, or got intimate with Purphoros, or spited Heliod. The gods, like Jay said, have actual lives and functions, thoughts and emotions now. They stabilized.
Part of the reasoning for this theory is from Dreams of the City, where Ashiok basically creates a proto-god. This was later confirmed by Kruphix himself in Kruphix's Insight.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
This quote from blogatog it what brought up this question again for me.
The first part is what I call in to question. I've see it mentioned in these forums a number of times but have never seen anything that even alludes to this as part of an official source.
When Kruphix initiated the Silence, the gods had turned on mortals and then were barred from interacting with them. This harmed their devotion, but they didn't cease to exist because the gods had begun to believe in (as in, began to rival, fear, interact with, etc.) one another. They believed each other (and themselves) to be legitimate beings, and this granted the pantheon an Olympians-style stability. I believe I heard it mentioned also as an explanation for why the gods give themselves and each other Devotion when in play, and why having all 15 out activates them all into creature cards, too. In Godsend, I believe it was Xenagos who either had said it, thought it, or who had progressed with actions (in an attempt at becoming a Theros god himself) which implied this fact about the gods.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
It is still possible I'm missing something, I'm going to do a more in-depth reading of Godsend and all related Uncharted Realms this week, but if anyone can find the exact source and link it, or just say what part of the Ebook it is that would be much appreciated.
Also Maro is not the place to go for lore questions, he himself admits that most of the time.
Likely, he just means that the gods could self-sustain if there were no mortal believers. They change based on Mortal beliefs but would exist in their current state without them, I guess.
But that's not really the case based on everything else we know.
He occasionally says lore things that don't quite work (like the Kor of Rath being from Zendikar).
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
So after going through old post from the Uncharted Realms discussion thread I found the first person to mention this was hairlessThoctar
The only quote I could find from Medomai that has any connotation that could mean this is While the quote does imply that the Gods are having some kind of affect on one another with belief it doesn't support them being self sustaining so it can go either way. Also its from a sphinx, who tend to be cryptic jerks giving you just enough information to make your ignorance even more infuriating. The quote is from the second E-book "Journey into Nyx" towards the end of chapter 5, about 35% into book.
Sorry if this counts as a double post and I should have just edited my last post, it being several hours later seemed like it should be a new post.
I'm glad you found that, because it's interesting. Medomai could mean a lot of things though, maybe that the 'trouble' could be that they started to take on lives of their own?
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
I believe the trouble Medomai is referring to is in fact the stability in the pantheon. Previous gods could be changed, unseated by newly imagined gods, etc. There was variability. But now that the gods believed in one another, they became a stable, more permanent feature of Nyx. They developed history and self-interest. Each a unique personality, each with a goal and a constant dominion over their territory. The Theros pantheon is so self-sustaining, in fact, that it's even come to a point where one god, Heliod, thinks himself as the king of all gods on Theros, and even operates to ensure that status. The gods have even gone to war over which alcove is greatest in the shrine of Nykthos. Basically, the Theros gods have resorted to the petty meddling and squabbles classic to the Greek pantheon which inspired them.
In Godsend, their stability is an issue because the gods have vast power. Thassa almost inundated all the land. Heliod almost killed all marine life with the sun, etc. They were a legitimate threat to mortals without Kruphix intervening.
I must stress that Medomai made these origin claims about the gods during the Silence, when the gods were barred from interacting with mortals and with Theros. A time when their devotion was threatened. A time of mortal questioning.
Then there's the source of why MTG decided to have the lore this way. In real Greek mythology, gods were unseated by new deities all the time. Apollo unseats Gaia and acquires the Delphic Oracle, for example. The Olympians unseat the titans and become a stable pantheon. On Theros, gods are unseat each other until the present pantheon acquires enough sentience and stability to sustain itself (one another). Mortal beliefs shape their behavior, but the gods themselves are ever-present even while changing. Ashiok confirms this, as mortal ideas and dreams "become proto-detities in Nyx all the time, but are assimilated into the respective god-forms that already represent them" or something to that effect. Any love of the sea, or ideas of the ocean's might, or thoughts of a lonely sailor out on the ocean will be assimilated into the already present and stable notion of THASSA, and she will continue to embody all these mortal thoughts. They will not, for example, form a new, proto-deity that competes with Thassa. She will absorb those thoughts and change/adapt based on them, but the shell (no pun intended) of what Thassa will embody will always be there as a stable container that stores every sea-related thought conjured by mortals.
Why? Because even when the mortals are thinking up new ocean-related thoughts, the other gods acknowledge their sister Thassa as the sea goddess, as the one who needs to be bribed so their hero has safe passage in the Dakra (for example), or who should be feared when building a coastal temple, or who is loved by Keranos, or got intimate with Purphoros, or spited Heliod. The gods, like Jay said, have actual lives and functions, thoughts and emotions now. They stabilized.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||